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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: suzee on Friday 22 August 14 14:03 BST (UK)
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Some background info - Robert came to Quebec from Kilsyth in Scotland sometime in the 1820s with his brother Henry - have not found any passenger lists for them.
Robert married (unknown date - unable to find on Drouin Collection or in the Southwestern Quebec Genealogical resources Parish records) a Rachel. The family were around the Hemmingford area.
In the various records for the childrens' births or burials her name has been given as follows:
James 1828, John Graham 1831 & Robert 1832 - Rachel and for James' burial Rachel Simoe;
there is another child in this group that I cannot find a Henry Joseph born c 1835 - on certificates in Australia he indicated his birthplace as Hemmingford British North America or Canada.
For Alexander 1837, Simon 1839, William 1843, Margaret and Mary 1849 her name is given as Archance.
In her burial record 1856 her name is given as Rachel Dinaud/Dinand (I think it is Dinaud) and on her headstone she is named Rachel Jeremie a native of Laprairie PQ. She is buried with her husband Robert died 1857 (native of Kilsyth Co Stirling Scotland on headstone) and her children James, Alexander and John Graham and his wife Lavinia Fosburgh. They are buried in the Cemetery of the Russeltown Church in Russeltown Flats.
Does anyone know why she has so many different names and would she be using the French system of "Dit" and if so which one would be her "Dit" name? If I can find what exactly her name is I may be able to find out more about her & her family and perhaps marriage record for her.
Any assistance will be greatly appreciated!
Regards
Suzee
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Hi Suzee,
HAve you contacted the local LDS family history library or genealogy group in that area? They may be able to shed some light on this.
JDC
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Hi jdc
No I haven't contacted either group yet but I suspect that will be happening quite soon. I thought I would test the waters here first.
Regards
Suzee
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The 1825 census of Laprairie, Longueuil, Huntingdon, Quebec has Francois Denaut Dit Jeremy as shown here:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-11706-8678-35?cc=1834346&wc=M6P1-WNT:162681301,162701401
This has to be one of your Rachel's relatives.
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Hi Manawakian
thank you for that link - I came across that census last week but was unsure of the relevance due to my lack of knowledge on the "dit" system and all the different names that Rachel used.
This is information I will now pursue - thank you.
Regards
Suzee
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Keep in mind re: surnames of the French Woman unmarried as well as married were often known by or using their maiden names . Scotland indexes women by their maiden names as well as married.
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Hi Mona Lisa
thanks for that tip re French surnames - was there any protocol as to when the French women either used their surname or dit name. Did the dit system also occur with given names?
Regards
Suzee
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Interesting article here re colonial Quebec surnames:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~unclefred/DitNames.html
In the 1851 census it appears that the Denaut or Denault name was used without the dit Jeremy.
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Thank you Manawakian - that was a great resource link also the info in the 1851 census
Regards
Suzee
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Looking at the census, her age being 50, she had her last child age 47 ? yikes... ?
Rennie, Robert Farmer Scotland Presbyterian age 59
Rennie, Racheal b. Canada age 50
Rennie, Henry age 19
Rennie, Alex age 17
Rennie, Simon age 12
Rennie, Wm age 9
Rennie, Margaret age 3
There is a Dumo(?), Emen (?) Labourer French Roman Catholic age 18 two down from the family
this may be a misheard spelling for a relative. Have you tried looking for surname as renny, remie, etc. The language/phonetics/interpretation make for difficult searches
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/SplitView.jsp?id=68892
She may have taken on his religion ...as a Roman Catholic she may have used Archange because it was her first "saint's name...Many were named Mary at their baptism.
By the same token you could very well be looking for a Joseph.
Note also the spelling may be Deniau/Daigneau/ Denau /Denault /Daneau/ Deneau Dit Jeremie or the reverse of the two names, or without the dit in between. Jeremy is also a phonetic for the name Jerome...yes, egads,...I know this to be true even today...
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In this publication this fellow appears to have been a servant in the Fur Trade https://archive.org/stream/cihm_03459#page/n73/mode/2up
VOYAGEURS UNDER THE BRITISH CROWN
1820 ( signed on I guess?) Deneau dit Jérémie, Constant Laprairie
Other you can search for with the dit surname
Theophile Woolfred Denaud Dit Jeremie
Hubert Theophile Denaud Dit Jeremie
Hippolyte Denaud Dit Jeremie
Alphonsine Denault Dit Jeremie
Marie Denise Zoe Durand Dit Jeremie
Wilfred Durand Dit Jeremie
Paul Theophile Denaut dit geremie
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Hi J.J. Thank you for the information - I noticed the age on the census is different to the one in the burial register which had Rachel's age as 49 in 1856. There are quite a few entries with the dit Jeremie - will follow up on these. Constant Deneau dit Jeremie that you found in the fur trade would have been in the Laprairie area around the time of Rachel and her family.
Regards
Suzee
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There is a baptism Laprairie 1791 for a Constant Deneau
This marriage may be of interest, although I see no birth of an Archange
1791 Laprairie FRANCOIS DENEAU .....MARIE ARCHANGE SENECAL
although I see the surname for Francois was also used as "DENEAU DETAILLY" ( Destaillis, etc)
There appear to be no Jeremie in the LaPrairie area...so when did the dit family arrive
There are two DENEAU men with middle name Jeremie...Ettiene ( Marie Josette Broseau) and Pierre (Mary Anne Boyer) all pure conjecture but sometimes looking at obtuse angles can help
Doesn't help much but will post as uses name HIPPOLYTE
http://gw.geneanet.org/monartque?lang=en;pz=pierre;nz=tremblay;ocz=19;p=etienne+hippolyte;n=deneau+dit+destaillis
also DAUNAIS HIPPOLYTE & MESNY MARIE ANNE
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Just to show the confusion the naming may be, here are a couple, the last ones I named above ...the parents of a Constant ( 146) http://donais.freeservers.com/Antoine-1/D4.htm
Hyppolite (Donay) Daunais (Daunet) . Other names for Hyppolite were Paul Dhonnay, and Joseph-Hypolite (also Hippolite)
Hyppolite married Marie-Anne Miny Meni, Menil, Many, and Mesny
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Once again thank you J.J. - I did wonder if the Archance could be Archange - you have given me lots to think about and now different ways to approach these names! Do you know if the French had a naming system like the Scots for given names - only asking this as Simon is not a name that has come through the Rennie line from this family in Scotland.
The marriage of Francois Deneau may be the same person that was mentioned to me in this forum on the 1825 census as Francois Deneau dit Jeremie from Laprairie
Regards
Suzanne
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I had information for a Simon but my computer locked up earlier. As you say, there is a child Simon and she answers as a surname, Simoe, wonder if something got mixed up there?
1798 marriage in Laprairie SIMON DENEAU DETAILLY and ( Marie-) MARGUERITE BOURASSA
She had a brother also Hippolytte and a Francois
http://gw.geneanet.org/ra41dr07?lang=en;p=amable;n=deneau;oc=2
His parents may have been Étienne-Jérémie Deneau & Marie-Josèphe Brousseau
More 1825 census LaPrairie although Francois as found earlier the only Dit Jeremy
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1825/Pages/results.aspx?k=laprairie+AND+cnsSurname%3a%22den*%22
You can also fiind more under Daigneau and Degneau
Am wondering if perhaps the middle name became a family dit nickname. I used to be good at this search but my eyes tire more easily... But I say this because it is an uncommon name...and is in small numbers confined to the region. Have found nothing you can take to the bank, however :-\
1831 census Denaut et al http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1831/Pages/results.aspx?k=laprairie+AND+cnsSurname%3a%22den*%22
Donaut http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1831/Pages/results.aspx?k=laprairie+AND+cnsSurname%3a%22donau*%22
1842 head only with 9 in household http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1842/lc/jpg/004569583_00455.jpg
To access more on the household change the last number on the jpg in the search line 00456 00457, etc...using the line numbers to find out more...
1861 http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1861/jpg/4108707_00197.jpg
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Archives nationales du Québec, fonds P224, pièce no. 121
Déposition de François Daneau dit Jérémie, de Laprairie, contre L.-A. Moreau (17 novembre 1837).
Description: ARCHIVES - ANQ P224
Francois goes by the dit name in 1846, a land dispute made the newspaper! There are 2 Francois it seems, by then, Sr. and Junior
"...plaintiff; against FRANCOIS DENAUT DIT JEREMIE, the elder, of the village Laprairie..."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1698&dat=18460416&id=l081AAAAIBAJ&sjid=G8sFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2531,2705750
and 1849 http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=167&dat=18490207&id=QNEtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LysDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5870,4893503
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KbjGAVICYwIC&pg=PA371 note several pages to see their stories!!!
On 3 June 1820, a few days before the boat was registered, they sold carriers Hypolite Denaut dit Jeremie, and Joseph Finster- waltz, dit Leste, of La Prairie...
Francois owns a hosedrawn ferry, the edmund
correspondence http://www.archiv.umontreal.ca/p0000/pdf-cat-p0000/P0058UD1.pdf
François Denault dit Jérémie and ______
U/3486 (mf 4644) La prairie, 24 June 1851
François DENAULT dit JÉRÉMIE à Maurice Cuvillier
U/3487 (mf 4644) Longueuil, 20 septembre 1795
St.Antoine's ward Montrea; 1870 https://archive.org/stream/cihm_57234#page/n41/mode/2up/search/jeremie
Zoe Seers, widow of Théophille Donaull dit Jérémie and: Rose Delima, Denise, Caroline, Alphonsine, Marcienne
http://collections.banq.qc.ca:81/jrn03/rapportarchiviste/src/1925/52334_02_0525.txt
N° 1914.—Examen de Olivier Gariêpy, de Laprairie (8 décembre 1838). N° 1915.—Examen de Hippolyte Jérémie, de Laprairie (11 décembre 1838)
Jérémie, Hyppolite, 230. Jérémie—Voir Daneau dit Jérémie. Jérôme—Voir Longtin dit Jérôme
Perhaps about this as he's in jail? Jérémie, Hypolite Denaud dit, Propriétaire rural, de Laprairie - 6 Nov 1838 http://pages.infinit.net/nh1837/pricon/lcomplet/frprcolc.htm
Here is a descendant of Simon...Maybe can shed some light on that family
http://genforum.genealogy.com/deneau/messages/17.html
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beg pardon, I forgot to add that the naming system was more about the French R.C. religion...first name saint, usually Marie or Joseph, but this changed as we've found....second name usually a godparent, but this was not always the case either... then the given name, but it became confusing when the first or second name was liked better by the parents, a different name was chosen by the child later in life for documents.....or perhaps as in this case all three may have been used at one time or another... We've has a heck of a time finding families and have seen claims made that were
not correct, so we can't be sure unless a lot more information is found to CONFIRM...Did I tell you about the census with most children in household called Joseph?? That wasn't their given name, but people felt they should use the first name on documents...yikes...??
The last name was given a dit ... Although it was often a soldier's nickname, a place of origin of the family, etc...I cannot help feeling this was a lone reason, to stand out or commemorate the ancestor's name...perhaps to differentiate from the increasing number of the surname in the surrounding area?? It may have even been a mistake over time, because they heard the middle name always said along with the surname? Who knows until this is solved.. ...Let me know if you can solve this... It is interesting...
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Hi J.J. Thank you so much for your assistance, information & interest in this - I'm off to work now but will need to read through thoroughly when I get home with no distractions!
Regards
Suzee
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A little more on Francois...
The Jeremiah runs between the dock of the rue Saint -Etienne, in Longueuil, and the Pied-du-Courant Sainte-Marie, in the early 1820s. François Deneau, nicknamed François Jérémie, of LaPrairie, is the owner. In 1820, he sold his boat to Oliver Wait, Abner Bagg and Stanley Bagg. We find him again however, in 1827 - 1828, in command of the Montreal steam boat that shuttled between Longueuil and Montreal http://marigot.ca/Atlas/Ind_Pag/Cen_Pag/Haut_Pag/19_Pag/Tran.htm
http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/webclient/StreamGate?folder_id=0&dvs=1409182514721~749
He is mentioned as jeremie/jeremy 4 times on page 71, &once ea page 73, 74 & 114 ( where he is twice once as geremy) So Jeremy is sometimes used as his last name
There is a land petition for a Francois Jeremy 1818 http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/lower-canada/001043-110.01-e.php?PHPSESSID=imrujfevvridogtvuc84crcrv2&q1=jerem*
Donation (June 15, 1763 ):
Donation of land situated in the Borgniesse; by Anne-Catherine Bisaillon, widow of Etienne Denau, the village of Prairie de la Magdelaine, to Jacques Denau (major) and Pinsonneau Charlotte, his wife, Marie-Françoise and Bellrose Denau (major), his wife, and Anne vanie Denau (major), his wife, Louis and Marie-Monique Drinville Denau (major), his wife, and Jérémie Denau (major) and Josephus Brousseau, his wife, his children, and sons-in-law. Notary: J. Lalanne (Montreal) http://www.genealogievanier.ca/affichage_personne.php?id=56&bd=1&l=en
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Hippolyte Denault-Jérémie
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3ADenault-Jérémie
Oh, Dear did we conclude that Theophile and Hyppolite Jeremie were one and the same?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JDTK-DYK
ah, yes, that would be the father as Paul Theophile Denaut dit Geremie ;D :P
also missed 1842 Huntingdon Châteauguay -Bapt Jeremie, a joiner
and here is a Constant Denaud in 1825 Huntingdon Chateauguay
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KHJ8-LSD
A couple of pages of just Denaud Denaut to peruse....
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019p7/
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You can look for the actual information to prove or disprove that his fellow can be ruled out...
Francois DENEAU DETAILLY and Marie Archange SENECAL m. Laprairie 1791
Daughter M. Archange married Jean Moyse RAYMOND (1810). Jean
Moyse married again into the LEROUX family (1815. L'Assomption)
Tried to find this fellow on census, but am not sure if I have the right person..Howerever he appears to be the father of Constant...( the fur trader, who called himself Denault Jeremy )
Pierre-Jérémie DENEAU DETAILL m.16 Oct 1775, St-Philippe, cté La Prairie, Qc, to Marie-Anne-Archange Boyer
http://gw.geneanet.org/ra41dr07?lang=en&p=pierre+jeremie&n=deneau+detailly
Constant etc 1825 in Constant.. ( also look through for more spellings in Huntingdon Chateauguay)
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1825/Pages/results.aspx?k=hunt%2A%20AND%20cnsSurname%3A%22den%2A%22&start1=11
There is this Pierre with 8 in household 1825 Huntingdon Chateauguay..I straightened out the line so you can find things easier... Let me know if you need this done to any others that you cannot read..many are off kilter
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-11352-4110-19
Note that he never came up at all on the colections Canada site >:(...but FHS site found him in the same area as Constant.
Notice a Jerome as wellbeside him... :P :P :P
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Hi J.J. Once again thank you for all the leads. I have been slowly going through the data that you sent and looking at the various names in the family & comparing those with the children that Rachel and Robert had and seeing if there was any hint of who could have been linked to her family. No success yet - if she was from a Catholic family would they have opposed her marrying someone from another religion e.g Presbyterian or could she have been an orphan???. I know that their child Henry born c 1835, called one of his daughters Rachel which would have been after his mother. Looking at some of the baptisms of her children there seems to be only Robert's family or their church friends present as witnesses. I am going to contact the person who had the tree of ancestors from Laprairie that you sent me - he may have come across this family and set aside the info as not relevant to his??? this line has created so many questions???
regards
Suzee
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To marry outside the religion was not unheard of, but it would have caused a family upheaval if the Catholic parents were devout.
William uses Rachel ... https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XFQ4-V63
I have no idea what the Simoe is...If the mother's surname was Simon then there is another wrench in the works...She does not use a surname in any baptisms, though, so odd this has something.
I have looked around considerably for ages and cannot find a link or baptism to help solve this. I had wondered if she married as well as lived outside the area of family and so was forgotten by the family....Have you checked to see if Rachel Rennie or Denaud or Jeremie is sponsoring any baptisms
anywhere after 1820 or so...or can you search for christening godparents I have no idea how extensive the database is on the paid sites?
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Because they are Hemmingford Huntingdon near the Rennie's in 1861:
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1861/jpg/4108707_00228.jpg
Deneault Jean B. age 62 wife Josepthe age 62 and Theopile age 20 Celestine age 24
Also a Mary Deno age 3 in Purcheron household
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1861/jpg/4108707_00259.jpg
Not that this family is even related ...Just to show the frustration they aren't visible thus far in 1851 or 1871...
Because there is a Simon born to this Denaut couple in 1851 LaPrairie http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/View.jsp?id=36378&highlight=25
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The Simon above in 1852... Parents Antoine Deneau & Geneviève Roillier ..
Antoine is not easy to find...did he use more than one forename as well?
I think I already gave you this Simon June 4 1774 Laprairie, born to Etienne (Steven) with middle name of Jeremie... He also had a sister Archange... but this is a submission which, along with any tree... always needs confirming https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/33XT-Y36
Another submission: http://records.ancestry.co.uk/etienne_jeremie_deneau_records.ashx?pid=35341139
Tree: http://www.thefamilysearch.com/getperson.php?personID=I2040&tree=tree1
I found this name, perhaps may turn out to be a relative.....I think you have access to the Drouin records, I do not... " Marie Louise Rachel Danault"
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Hi J.J. thank you for the posts with all the information contained within them - I checked on Marie Louise Rachel Denault and the entry for her is 1904 with her parents Joseph Denault and Olive Houle - the baptism occurred at St Elphege on Co Yanaska. I could not find Rachel being a witness to any of the Rennie family baptisms nor saw her name when looking around these baptisms. The only surnames I can find for her are in the burial record and her headstone!! ???
Once again thank you
Suzee :)
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Yes, sorry, grasping at straws, i suppose... I don't have access to full information...and I do find that results vary as well, according to input...
This search is not unusual for the times, as I don't think people were really sure which names to chose as a given name, or liked another better...If the husband gave the info he may have used another name as well......and the family names are often a head-ache as well for the phonetics, addons and nicknames...Sometimes a good dig can help but we don't have a lot of dirt to sift through, as you pointed out.
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Just looked again at the newspaper account of the river craft (Quebec "Minerve") owner, " F. Denaud dit Jeremie" it also said "or" "Mr. Jeremie dit Decelles"
This could very well be the phonetic version of "F(rancois) Denault dit Jérémie" and makes me wonder if the alias was his other name ( badly phoneticized) Denault "Detailly"
adding
Making their own name around the same time she was born surely makes it difficult to find information... the fact that Francois called himself dit-Jeremy in the 1825 census and and her being called surname Jeremy at death in the 1850s I'd say the surname was established enough by then to be known by many... but not soon enough to be confident to use it for birth entries, perhaps.
So who might the father ( mother) have been...
an online tree has the children of Etienne Jeremie Deneau listed as
Marie Therese Denault
Jacques Denault
Marie Angelique Denault,
Archange Denault
Joseph Deneau
Marie Eleonore Deneau
Jacques Denault
Casimier Denault
Marie Louise Deneau
Francois Denault
Josephte Denaud
Simon Denault
Charlotte Deniau
Etienne Denault
http://www.thefamilysearch.com/getperson.php?personID=I2040&tree=tree1
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Looking through the thread once again there was also this tree...for "Étienne Jérémie Deneau Dit Destaillis" ( this spelling certainly helps the theory that Mr. Jeremie dit Decelles was perhaps the Francois born dit Detailly, later using Jeremie)
http://gw.geneanet.org/monartque?lang=en;pz=pierre;nz=tremblay;ocz=19;p=etienne+jeremie;n=deneau+dit+destaillis
The two trees are the same family... but certainly do not match up... ::) It certainly does appear to have been a dit added to honour the Jeremie middle name, or to identify a family offshoot...
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I have not been up on new added census online, not sure if you have it, suzee... the 1842 has nine people in the Rennie household so they already had 7 children by then...
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-11352-9061-79?cc=1834340
Suzee...You had said Rachel was 49 at her death in 1856....but the gravestone looks to me as though her age says 45...Are you stating the death information from the Drouin records? Just checking as this would make her birth estimate closer to 1813.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=95297045&PIpi=108572753
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Hi J J thank you once again for the information - will need to go through it all! I just rechecked the church records that are on this website http://www.swquebec.ca/church_registers/ASP_net_files/surname_search.aspx and Rachel has given her name as Archance = no surname given only that she is the wife of Robert Rennie. She has used this name for these children Alexander in 1837 and Simon in 1839, William in 1843 she used Archance Bernice?, Margaret and Mary in 1849.
For her son James' burial she used Rachel Simoe.
So confusing!! ???
Suzee
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Hi J J just rechecked the photo I took of the Rennie monument in the Russelltown church cemetery and her age is 49 and she died Dec 25 - there is distinction between the 9 and 5.
Regards
Suzee :)
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Oh, that's good...although who can trust the age they give when they/she kept changing her name. ;D
That really is an odd mix of names there...Now did the person who wrote in the registry come up with ther own forename for her...or was she and everyone around her that confused as to her original names....
I suppose if those ARE her ancestors and Jeremie dit Decelles ( which I believe is a version of Detailles) was used at the same time as Denault dit Jeremie...her father could have also given himself his own version of the name...
Also if she married and baptised outside the family religion she could have been shunned by family and found it hard to keep up with the surname changes. The forename thing, though, is just plain confusing...and it seems she may have been confused herself.
Had the list BEGUN with Rachel one might have thought there was a new wife, but she begins baptising as Rachel...The Archance could have been used if she felt she should be using her baptismal first name from baptism for religious documents...but Mary & Margaret do not make sense....... Although, she may indeed have had three or four names...Catholics can have several in addition to their saint's name, some to honour ancestors, Godparents, and also a confirmation name added later....and sometimes a parent might use one, then the child may choose to use another....and may even switch between two they like best...So I've seen three, but this is a first to see four used, and by the actual person.
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I don't know if I looked for the Geremie spelling, but here is a Bapt. Geremie Châteauguay Huntingdon, Inhabitants in household: 6 http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1842/lc/jpg/004569583_00691.jpg
an Emma Geremie, age 36 born Laprairie in the 1852 census married to Louis Surprenant
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/SplitView.jsp?id=36269
there is a Jeremie Jérémie and a Barette Jeréme in Berthier 1842
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1842-Canada-East/Pages/results.aspx?k=cnsSurname%3a%22jerem*%22
a couple of surname Jeremie ladies in 1852 http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/SurnameSearch.jsp?surname=jeremie&ew=e
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Hello Suzee.
Are you able to make out how many months are given for the age of Rachel on the monument? I can see the 49 years just fine but the number for the months is just too small and fuzzy.
PB
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Hi PB I have just relooked at several copies of the monument that I have and Rachel's age in months is either 5 or 3 - it looks more like 3 & I agree that portion of the photo is not that clear.
Regards
Suzee
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Suzee has sent me the images....The three is the worst number on there for lack of detail. This is a debossed background to make the letters look embossed...Fine and attractive for bigger wording but tougher to get small details.
I used the one taken with the camera sideways as the open end top of what I think is a 3 looks more visible. The 5s although all different styles, all appear to have a flat left stroke, and this is open enough to look like a backwards C when darkened.
Can anyone tell me why the shadow shows light coming from below rather than above?
The send image is a reverse image, which often shows better detail....
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Hello Suzee. Some thoughts.....
Given that the months look like they might be 3 and if the age of Rachel is correct, and my math, this would give her a birth date of about 01 Oct 1807 +/- a day or 6. So I am going to post a few thoughhts related to this interesting baptism....
At Laprairie, a Simon Denaut and Marguerite (Eng. Margaret) Bourassa had a daughter baptized with the name Michel Archange. She was b. 03 Oct 1807 and baptized the next day.
This is definitely not the name Rachel; the writing is clear. There is always the possibility that the Priest made an error, given that Michel(le) Archange seems to be a relatively common name in the family. Unfortunately, this is not going to help you other than in a circumstantial way.
Rachel may also have chosen to call herself by that name. No way to know.
It is also most unfortunate that a marriage has not surfaced for Robert and Rachel. Robert would in all probability have had to change to a Catholic in order marry in her church in those days. But if a marriage was found in a Protestant church, the likelihood that parents would be given would be low b/c they generally weren't included the way they were for the French ceremonies. But you never know....something may come to light down the road.
And you have a Simon and Margaret appearing as names for two of the children. Again, only circumstantial evidence. Too bad there were no family members as Godparents to the children. As Catholics they probably wouldn't have been allowed due to church rules.
Anyway, food for thought. This is a most interesting family!
PB
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More circumstantiel evidence to provide ( please read our taglines as posters must confirm )
I am not saying that is the correct baptism. Nothing conclusive has been found, and perhaps never will be.....but I found more compelling information this week to add to Polar Bear's find. I had not found it earlier as I was likely looking for Jeremie surnames. it was not until today when I worked on the grave stone that I looked again at where they were buried. Russeltown...I had not observed this as I was looking for other particulars when I first read the initial query.
I found a Simon there in 1825 census...surname Denault. The name of the town was not written on the actual results info so I never noticed back when I found it. Spelled Rufsele Town using an "f" to show two Ss which was a good thing as the writing is not easy to read, and that clinched it.
Looking at maps to see St Martine closer than LaPrairie to Hemmingford Beauharnois where the Rennie family lived in the 1851 census....But just checked & Russeltown is quite a bit further down the road, so almost the same distance away.
1825 census - Denault , Simon - Russel Town, Ste. Martine, Huntingdon
a Pierre, single, the sole person in next household.
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1825/jpg/004569588_00029.jpg
I don't get ten in total, all females and males should have been counted in the last two columns/sub columns but they appear to have missed the information for one young person.
Column3. Total number living in household: 10
Column5. Total under 6 years of age: 4
The next columns should have also been filled in to show all teens in household. This is not the only census filled in like this I do not think the enumerators knew what they were doing or they were not trained properly.....
A total male and female count is different from the information asked previously.
Column 8. Men (males)
From 18 years of age and under 25 years & unmarried :1
From 40 and under 60 years of age & married:1
Column 9. women (females)
under 14 years of age: 3
From 14 and under 45 years of age & unmarried:3
From 45 years of age and over & married 1
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Hi PB thank you so much for all your hard work! and powers of deduction - this family in Quebec has indeed been so hard to follow. I was at the proverbial brick wall when I posted this originally as Rachel went by so many names!!! I thought it would be easier when I found her name on her headstone but it was not to be!!
It is interesting that you have the Archange in your information. I wonder if the clergy of the day and the broad scottish accent changed Archange to Archance when documenting the births in the Presbyterian records. She was identified in some of her children's baptismal records in the presbyterian church as Archnace or Archance Berniece.
http://www.swquebec.ca/church_registers/ASP_net_files/surname_search.aspx
this is the website where I found quite a few of the entries for her as Archance however I am not sure where to access the original records and thus have not done so. I believe that this is the Rachel that I am researching as she is identified as the wife of Robert Rennie in Hemmingford and I cannot find another Robert in that area at that time.
I had never came across the name Archance/Archange until researching Rachel.
I found most of her children's birth except for Henry who should have been born around 1835. He came to Australia and became a Catholic in the early 1870s - he also married an Irish girl so that could have been an influence but this occurred a few years after he married her.
Henry named one of his children Rachel and another Margaret.
I too was baffled that I could not find a marriage for Robert and Rachel - I even looked for Robert on his own but without success. I have even looked through the Scottish records without success as there had been a suggestion that he married in Scotland. I am beginning to wonder now if they were married elsewhere especially if she married outside of her religion. I cannot see Robert reverting to become a Catholic as his family were staunch Presbyterians and he even had relatives as ministers and elders in the church in Scotland.
Once again thank you very much for this information - as you said there may be light down the road later on.
Regards
Suzee
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Hi again.
It's really too bad that we can't say for sure the the baptism belongs to your Rachel. Wish we could have definitely found her for you. But certainly something to keep on the back burner in case some new info comes along to prove it is her.
I do think the Archance is probably Archange, a relatively common French name. It would likely not be a name a Presbyterian minister would be familiar with though and he perhaps wrote it as he heard it or thought he did.
About the Simoe... I think there might be some possiblity that it was a misheard and phonetically written Dimoe/Dinoe/Denoe for Denaut. The first letter is not all that clear, if I remember correctly.
Gosh knows where the Bernice came from but anything's possible. Could also be a somehow mistranscribed Deneau-type name.
I haven't looked again before typing this but I thought I saw somewhere on the website with the baptism transcriptions you posted (homepage, maybe?) that you could order copies of the records. I don't know if this would be original images but you might want to have a look. Original images would be such a bonus.
PB
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Here is a link (hopefully) with info about obtaining the records through that website....
http://www.swquebec.ca/church_registers/search2.html
Look under source documents.
PB
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Hi PB and JJ thank you very much for your information
PB copies of the original images would be a bonus so will definitely check out the link.
JJ - there is the name Denault again - Rachel had her surname as Denaud in a record but again pronunciation and broad accents this could well be her surname. And Simon is a name used in the family - this name however does not occur anywhere in Robert's family back in Scotland.
I am going to print out the census record to really look at the information and to take in the significance. I know you have highlighted the areas for me but need to also visualise on the record! Just me! Need to go and peruse this new information.
Once again thank you so much because without your assistance and expertise in this area I would never have reached this stage on my own. It has been great to have conversations with you on this forum and all of a sudden have information appear in the forum. I really do appreciate it.
Regards
Suzee
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PolarBear you have done so much work behind the scenes! I hope enough information can be found to prove this is the correct gal. I had misread in a previous entry of Suzees that she had used the name Margaret & Mary as well, but it referred to her children... so see how the written word, misspells, semantics, phonetics, so much can be missconstrued. I have not found Bernice to be a name used widely in Quebec...PolarBear is correct, getting some actual images might help...I know someone who reads French well (P.B.) ;D and an image enhancer ( J.J.) ;D
Simon, as we had pointed out before, was the son of Etienne Jeremy Denault (denaud,Deniau / dit Detaily, Destailles) ...etc.& Marie Joseph(t)e Brosseau who were the parents of Francois whom we have found known to go by dit-Jeremy. There is more compelling information to add, and I was going to submit it in tomorrow night's post when I add some basic family info, but it does make for very good reason to dig further.
The son Simon was baptised 1774, La Prairie ...the next daughter died as a babe, the next baptism 1778 was for a sister Michelle Archange. So she may have had an aunt by that name...
IF that were she...There could have been many reasons she could have dropped baptismal names, if feeling rejected it may have represented the church in which she wasn't allowed to Marry......because she had another name she liked better, who knows if there was a third name not used at baptism. ( there would have also been a Confirmation name which could have been St. Rachel or the first name of her confirmation mother )...or it was just a name she liked and chose to call herself.
P.S. Marie as a first saint's baptismal name is often dropped as there are millions of Mary/marie.
She may have used her other baptismal name because it was a baptism. Have seen this before.
Until tomorrow...all the best
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hmmm...I lied...I just found this and don't want any more notes...It is important to realize there will be many spellings for the name....
Hyppolite Deneau, son of Simon & Marguerite m Josette Masson. He is still living in Russeltown in 1852......spelling?? Denio, Polite ;D
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/View.jsp?id=69274&highlight=28
also a Josepth Denio or Deniu on the page in Russeltown... http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/SplitView.jsp?id=69282
that one & next were transcribed as Denis
Amable Deneau married St.Chrysostome ( Russeltown is considered in that district now) to Theotiste Lefebvre
spelling: Amable Denio & Lefevre, Thaise...
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/SplitView.jsp?id=69244
Eduard, also as Denis http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/View.jsp?id=69234&highlight=9
P.S. I found some who are called Dano to this day. Phonetics.
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The above just reminded me that a labourer ( domestic?) for the Renny's there was a Denno/Dumo/Dunno ( Emere?) female in 1852
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/SplitView.jsp?id=68892
aha! and also in 1852 a few pages before the Rennie family in Hemmingford township
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/View.jsp?id=68884&highlight=11
adding: Oh shoot I thought it might have been Jacque, brother of Simon, but what does the F mean, France? or French
Here's a few more spellings I just found Denauit, Deneault
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I was shut out every time I tried to get on this weekend...Although no proof exists these were relatives, I'll post what I find & I'll add more if I find more.
This site has the basic info for some of the family below marked * (F.T.) means online family tree
http://www.genealogy.umontreal.ca/ The site defaults all derivitives to standard DENAULT
(F.T.) Marie Joseph DENEAU, b. 1797 / d. Dec.1797 St. Philippe, Laprairie
*Marriage of Simon & Marie Marguerite 1798
*Marie Louise DENEAU, b. 1798, Laprairie ( Louise Denault was the godmother)
*Simon's sister Marie Louise married 1799, father Etienne & Simon, Francois & Paul signed)
(F.T.)Marie Esther DENAULT chr. July 24, 1818 Saint-Philippe,Laprairie,Quebec (FHS submission)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:1:MJ4B-SQP
(F.T.)Marguerite Deneau-married 1827, St-Constant, La Prairie, to Charles-Joseph Désautels
(F.T.)Josephte Deneault-married 1838, Ste-Martine, Châteaugua to Édouard Lefebvre
(F.T.)Émérance-Émérentienne Deneau-married 1838, Ste-Martine, Châteauguay to Jean-Baptiste
Beauvais\St-Gemme\St-James
(F.T.)Apolline Deneault-married 29 September 1840, Ste-Martine, Châteauguay, to Augustin Arel\Harel
(F.T.) Amable whom I found in 1852 census, first married in 1825 La Prairie to Sophie Brosseau
http://gw.geneanet.org/ra41dr07?lang=en;p=amable;n=deneau;oc=2
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Etienne Jeremie Denault died 1820 La Prairie. My thoughts are that this could have been where the name may have been reversed to Denault Jeremie to honour him. This is not fact, just a thought. There also appear to have been a great deal of marriages to relatives as I see the repetition of the names coming around again over the centuries. Changing the name could have been to avoid frowns from the clergy. It may also have been to set the family apart from the many Denault, Denault dit Detailly in their surrounding area. Not everyone used the Jeremy dit on census or documents ...& it appears Francois was person we find used it most, but then if you read the previously submitted information, they were also in the limelight...( Not sure if Constant, Pierre & Hypollite were his ) Constant denault dit Jeremie & R. Theophile ( a.k.a. Hypollite?) Jeremie are both shown to be fur traders...both may be Francois sons? Not positive.
Francois was known to man the ship Eduard , The Jeremie & just found him listed as builder of The De Salaberry ( built by F Decelles dit Jeremie, Laprairie, Quebec )
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/passengerlists/1823/tjun14.shtml
Adding more Denault spellings...There are lots more, too many to list... to help descendants find the thread: Denaud, Denaut, Denautt, Dunnout, Denno, Denio, Daigneau Daignault Deniau, Deneau, Daigneault, Deneaux, Deonux, DeNiau, Deneuth, Daigneault, Daignault also dit: Detailly, Destailles, Detailly, Ditaly, Detilly
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Here is a submission for siblings of Simon https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:33XT-Y36
From: http://www.genealogy.umontreal.ca/
all baptisms & deaths LaPrairie note that spellings will not be found as listed here.
correct parents listed means Father:Etienne Jeremie Denault / mother: Marie Josephe Brosseau
no middle name Jeremie and no mother matches, so not sure if a fit
1759 male Denault Etienne Jeremie / father Etienne / no mother listed
1760 Bapt La Prairie male Etienne Hippolyte /correct parents listed /also signed Jacques Denault
1761 femaleMarie Josephe /correct parents listed
1763 female Marie Charlotte / correct parents listed
1765 male Jacques / correct parents listed
1766 female Marie Therese / correct parents listed
1768 male Francois Marie / correct parents listed
1769 female Josephe / correct parents listed
1771 female Marie Angelique / correct parents listed
1773 bapt & death male Casimir / correct parents listed
1774 male Denault Simon / correct parents listed
1776 bapt & death female Marie Eleonore / correct parents listed
1778 female Michelle Archange / correct parents listed
no middle name Jeremie for father and no mother matches, so not sure if a fit
1780 female MARIE LOUISE
If you'd like to look back on this line in the future ( hopefully enough tie-ins might one day turn up ) there is some online info on the ancestors...the original Deneau dit Destailly from France
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The name is still relevent to the hunt so enjoy this page which tells of the patriarch & the so far unrelated man with the same surname, who came from France at the same time ...
http://lequebecunehistoiredefamille.com/capsule/Daignault-Daigneault/genealogie Google translates a so-so result...I often use other translators in order to get a better to understand result...
I simply have to add this of the LaPrairie ancestor-Marin de Niault who may have named his area in La Praire " Le Teille" in honor of the town in France, but read throug,there are other thoughts on this...such as... The 1666 census of Montreal gives Marin the surname of Sully and so this may have referred to Sully-sur-Loire... Interesting reading...and who knows what is correct... Much like the new story we have compiled.
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/t/h/o/Rebecca-Thomas-MA/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0268.html
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Oh JJ you have been very busy - I also could not get on yesterday so was really surprised when I got the notification late this afternoon. It is amazing the variations in the spelling for the name. I am going to have to do a lot of reading and cross referencing over the next few days!! or weeks just to get my head around all this new info !!
Once again thank you
Suzee
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You can sift through it all at your leasure....The more I see about this family the more I know what to look for and look back into..altho I will probably leave it for now... We now know for certain the name was not written Dinand, but Dinaud...I wonder if the version used by the original settlers was the one defaulted to in the site I gave you...Mind you the version still would have been up to the person writing the info unless they were known to write, and it wasn't a common thing to be able to back then...
....and that the actual surname was later said with final consonant or without ( silent)*. There indeed was a part of the family that used Jeremie and whether or not it was actually used in hers is still not proven. Anyone could add a nickname in those days... It may have been put on the stone because it was by then a recognized version of a well used name. ( ;D thanks to the ones who made the news of the day with their achievements & antics)
The original pioneers Deneau/Denault appear to have populated a great deal of Quebec and some northeast U.S. with the first 3 each having ten children, and so on.( looking at Etienne's family Simon may have had 12 siblings or more, at least ten lived on)
I do suggest reading through the thread once again as something might spark you as well.
*Most of us in Canada do not often speak well enough to pronounce our "ts" well anyway,...lazy tongue, they are often said as "ds" My father," the teacher" tried ever so hard to instill this in my son...who, at four yers old, found it all a bit confusing. After my sister's marriage he was exhausted & announced that he never again wanted to be taken to another "WETTING!" ....heehee