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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Kelly80 on Thursday 21 August 14 16:30 BST (UK)
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Does anyone have access to the Parish records for the Shoreditch/Bethnal Green area, who doesn't mind helping me trace some elusive ancestors?
I'm searching for the marriage record for Richard Doubtfire and Sarah Earl. I believe their first born child was my great great great grandfather, Richard Doubtfire and he was born at 4 Teale Street, Bethnal Green on 20th July 1849.
From the census returns I believe Richard senior was born around 1827 - 1831 in St.Lukes and died in 1881 in Shoreditch. Sarah Earl was born between 1829 - 1835 in Shoreditch and probably died in 1915 in Shoreditch.
Most of Richard and Sarah's children were baptised at St Leonards Church, Shoreditch ... so Richard and Sarah may have married at this church also?
In 1851 their address was given as 6 Little Norfolk Place, Bethnal Green.
If anyone has access to records around this area that could do a little bit of digging for me on Richard and Sarah I'd be very grateful. They are proving to be very difficult to trace back any further.
I also have an un-named child of Richard and Sarah on the 1951 census that I'd like to identify. The child was a boy and 1 month old when the census was taken, he does not appear on the 1861 census as is therefore presumed to have died young. I can't find a baptism record for this boy, or one for my ancestor Richard who was born 1849.
Please note, that there a numerous transcription errors in the spelling of 'Doubtfire', I have come across the following spellings so far 'Dentfire', 'Dowtfire', 'Doughfire', 'Dovbfire', 'Doudfire'
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Where does Sarah's maiden name come from.
Only asking really as with the family in 1851 there is a Mary Tyler - In 1866 (Bethnal Green) there is a marriage between a Richard Doubtfire & Sarah Tyler both full age. I did wonder if it was a late marriage :-\
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The first instance of a marriage entry on FreeBMD for Richard Doubtfire is September quarter 1866
St James the Great, Bethnal Green - 3 September 1866
Richard Doubtfire (x), full age, bachelor, Labourer of Bethnal Green. Father: Richard Doubtfire, deceased.
Sarah Tyler (x), full age, spinster of Bethnal Green. Father: James Tyler, deceased
Added: There are no entries for any of your alternative spellings of Doubtfire on FreeBMD 1837-1915.
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Sarah Earl is on Richard Doubtfire (juniors) birth certificate.
Sarah Tyler on the 1866 marriage record is not the same woman, and is part of a different Doubtfire family living at a different address in the same area.
Moderaor comment: Full certificate removed, small portions only are allowed for deciphering purposes
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Excuse my ignorance, but why can't we post full certificates? The people mentioned on it are all long since gone.
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RootsChat's practice is not to allow full certificates to be posted. This is RootsChat's position, regardless of what other sites or policies may allow. We ask all members to abide by it.
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Sarah Tyler on the 1866 marriage record is not the same woman, and is part of a different Doubtfire family living at a different address in the same area.
So we don't confuse the two families could you please post census references for your family in 1871 / 1881
I am only seeing one Richard/Sarah Do*fire family in the area :-\
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Is this your family in 1861?
Class: RG 9; Piece: 244; Folio: 39; Page: 29
7 Barton Court, Shoreditch, Middlesex
Doubtfire, Richard Head M 30 Labourer Dust Yard b St Lukes, Middlesex
Doubtfire, Darah Wife F 28 b Shoreditch
Doubtfire, Richard Son M 11 Labourer, Dust Yard b Hastbury, Middlesex
Doubtfire, Mary A Daughter F 3 b Bethnal Green
As regards certificates: The simple fact is that you don't own the copyright!
So publishing (i.e. posting them here) is a potential breach of copyright law; unless you have the copyright-owner's permission?! ;D
You have to have an acknowledgement of Crown Copyright ;D
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1851 - HO107/1534 folio 231 page 36
6 Little Norfolk Place, St Leonards, Shoreditch
Richard Doutfire/Dentfire - 27 - Labourer born St Luke
Sarah - 21 - born Shoreditch
Richard - 1 - born Bethnal Green
Infant son - 1 month - born Shoreditch
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1871 RG10/461 folio 43 page 49
6 Barton Court, St Leonards, Shoreditch
Richard Doughtfire - 50 Labourer born St Lukes
Sarah - 40 - Charwoman born Shoreditch
Annie - 4 months born Shoreditch
Harriett - 4 months born Shoreditch
I can't readily see Richard junior.
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Baptisms available from Ancestry, with parents Richard and Sarah Doubtfire:
St Matthias, Bethnal Green - Mary Ann born 21/2 and baptised 8 November 1857 - 15 Read Street - Labourer
St Leonard, Shoreditch - Robert and William born 24 February 1864 (Robert the elder by 1/2 hour and in danger) baptised 4 March 1864 - 7 Barton Court - Labourer
St Columba, Haggerston - Sarah (pb) 7 May 1869 - 7 Barton Court - Labourer
St John, Hoxton - Anne and Harriet born 20 November 1870, baptised 18 December 1870 - 7 Barton Court - Labourer
St Saviour, Hoxton - Francis Joseph born 21 October 1874, baptised 20 November 1874 - 20 Brand Place - Labourer
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Is this your family in 1861?
Class: RG 9; Piece: 244; Folio: 39; Page: 29
7 Barton Court, Shoreditch, Middlesex
Doubtfire, Richard Head M 30 Labourer Dust Yard b St Lukes, Middlesex
Doubtfire, Darah Wife F 28 b Shoreditch
Doubtfire, Richard Son M 11 Labourer, Dust Yard b Hastbury, Middlesex
Doubtfire, Mary A Daughter F 3 b Bethnal Green
As regards certificates: The simple fact is that you don't own the copyright!
So publishing (i.e. posting them here) is a potential breach of copyright law; unless you have the copyright-owner's permission?! ;D
You have to have an acknowledgement of Crown Copyright ;D
Yes this is the correct family as far as I'm aware.
I have ordered Mary Ann Doubtfire's birth certificate just to double check.
I'm sorry about the certificate photo. I hadn't realised there were copyright issues.
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Baptisms available from Ancestry, with parents Richard and Sarah Doubtfire:
St Matthias, Bethnal Green - Mary Ann born 21/2 and baptised 8 November 1857 - 15 Read Street - Labourer
St Leonard, Shoreditch - Robert and William born 24 February 1864 (Robert the elder by 1/2 hour and in danger) baptised 4 March 1864 - 7 Barton Court - Labourer
St Columba, Haggerston - Sarah (pb) 7 May 1869 - 7 Barton Court - Labourer
St John, Hoxton - Anne and Harriet born 20 November 1870, baptised 18 December 1870 - 7 Barton Court - Labourer
St Saviour, Hoxton - Francis Joseph born 21 October 1874, baptised 20 November 1874 - 20 Brand Place - Labourer
Yes this is correct. I have all of these records. At the moment I'm not sure if Francis belongs to the Doubtfire/Earl family or the Doubtfire/Tyler family. I'm pretty sure all the other children are part of the family I'm looking at though because of the consistency of their address.
There is also the Richard & Sarah Tyler family who live at 17 Hoxton Street. They married in 1866 and had children Reuben (b.1866) and Elizabeth (bap.1869). I'm not looking into this branch of the family as I can find no direct connection so far with my ancestors. However, it is entirely possible that this Richard may turn out to be a cousin of the Richard I'm researching.
I'm interested in Richard Doubtfire and Sarah Earl who lived predominately at 7 Barton Court. Richard died in 1881 just after the census was taken. Sarah continued to live with her daughter Harriet who subsequently married Thomas Cherrington. Sarah Doubtfire (widow) lived with the Cherrington's at 6 Branch Place through the 1891 and 1901 census, and then moved with them to 5 Hutley Place on the 1911 census. I believe Sarah died in 1914.
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If it helps, this is a summary of the timeline for the family I'm researching. What I'd like to do though is trace the parents Richard and Sarah back to their families.
1851 census living at 6 Little Norfolk Place. (Richard 27yrs b.St Lukes, Sarah 21yrs b. Shoreditch, Richard 1 yr b. Shoreditch, Unnamed son 1 month b. Shoreditch) - (household:145,piece:1534,folio:231,pg.36)
8 Nov 1857 – Mary A Doubtfire Baptised at St Matthews, Bethnal Green– Parents Sarah and Richard living at 15 Mead Street.
1861 census living at 7 Barton Court. (Richard 30yrs b.St Lukes, Sarah 20yrs b. Shoreditch, Richard 11 yrs b. Shoreditch, Mary A 3 yrs b. Shoreditch) - (household:157,piece:244,folio:39,pg.29)
24th Feb 1864 - Twins Robert & William Doubtfire born.
4 March 1864 - Robert & William Doubtfire Baptised - Parents Sarah and Richard living at 7 Barton Court.
March 1864 - Robert and William die. (1864 JAN/FEB/MAR Shoreditch Vol.1c/Page.187)
7th May 1869 – Sarah Doubtfire baptised at St Columba, Haggerston - Parents Sarah and Richard living at 7 Barton Court.
20th Nov 1870 - Twins Harriet & Annie born (1870 OCT/NOV/DEC Hoxton Vol.1c/Page.170)
18th Dec 1870 - Harriet & Annie Doubtfire baptised St John, Hoxton - parents listed as Sarah & Richard of 7 Barton Court.
1873 - Annie Doubtfire dies aged 2 years (1873 JUL/AUG/SEP Vol.1c/Page.97)
1871 census at 7 Barton Court. (Richard 50yrs b.St Lukes, Sarah 40yrs b. Shoreditch, Annie 4 months b. Shoreditch, Harriet 4 months b. Shoreditch) - (household:312,piece:461,folio:43,pg.49)
1881 census at 6 Branch Place. (Richard 60yrs b.St Lukes, Sarah 50yrs b. Shoreditch, Harriet 10 yrs b. Shoreditch) - (ED:25,piece:399,folio:97,pg.5)
1881 - Richard Doubtfire dies - (Vol.1c/pg.83 APR/MAY/JUN 1881, Shoreditch)
1891 census at 6 Branch Place. (Sarah (widow) 38yrs?? b. Shoreditch, Harriet 20 yrs b. Shoreditch)
1st Aug 1892 - Harriet marries Thomas Cherrington, St Saviour, Hoxton.
1901 census at 6 Branch Place (Sarah (widow) 67yrs b. Shoreditch, Harriet Cherrington 30 yrs b. Shoreditch, Thomas Cherrington 32yrs b.Shoreditch)
1911 census at 5 Hutley Place (Sarah (widow) 84yrs b. Shoreditch, Harriet Cherrington 41 yrs b. Shoreditch, Thomas Cherrington 45yrs b.Shoreditch … etc)
1914 Sarah Doubtfire Death record - Apr/May/Jun 1915 vol.1c/pg.62 (age 81)
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1861 census living at 7 Barton Court. (Richard 30yrs b.St Lukes, Sarah 20yrs b. Shoreditch, Richard 11 yrs b. Shoreditch, Mary A 3 yrs b. Shoreditch) - (household:157,piece:244,folio:39,pg.29)
If you look at the original census form, Sarah is actually 28 yrs of age!
Ancestry's transcription shows 20, but it's wrong! ;D
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Do you have birth certificates for any of the children other than Richard bn 1849.
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Do you have birth certificates for any of the children other than Richard bn 1849.
No, only Richard's at the moment. However, I am expecting to receive Mary A Doubtfire's in the post any time soon.
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1861 census living at 7 Barton Court. (Richard 30yrs b.St Lukes, Sarah 20yrs b. Shoreditch, Richard 11 yrs b. Shoreditch, Mary A 3 yrs b. Shoreditch) - (household:157,piece:244,folio:39,pg.29)
If you look at the original census form, Sarah is actually 28 yrs of age!
Ancestry's transcription shows 20, but it's wrong! ;D
That doesn't surprise me, her age is all over the place if you look through all the transcripted dates. If you believe what they have transcribed then Sarah could have been born any time between 1827 and 1853! I think it's more likely to be around 1830 - 1833.
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There is also the Richard & Sarah Tyler family who live at 17 Hoxton Street. They married in 1866 and had children Reuben (b.1866) and Elizabeth (bap.1869). I'm not looking into this branch of the family as I can find no direct connection so far with my ancestors. However, it is entirely possible that this Richard may turn out to be a cousin of the Richard I'm researching.
The baptism for Elizabeth in 23 May 1869 gives the address of 7 Barton Court which is where your Richard & Sarah were in 1871
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There is also the Richard & Sarah Tyler family who live at 17 Hoxton Street. They married in 1866 and had children Reuben (b.1866) and Elizabeth (bap.1869). I'm not looking into this branch of the family as I can find no direct connection so far with my ancestors. However, it is entirely possible that this Richard may turn out to be a cousin of the Richard I'm researching.
The baptism for Elizabeth in 23 May 1869 gives the address of 7 Barton Court which is where your Richard & Sarah were in 1871
I hadn't come across Elizabeth's baptism record to view the address. But that is odd as I have the baptism record for Sarah Doubtfire (junior) for 7th May 1869 which gives the address of the parents Richard and Sarah at 7 Barton Court. How strange to have two children baptised only a few weeks apart and not together. Where was Elizabeth baptised? Sarah was baptised at St Columba, Haggerston.
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Elizabeth was baptised at St John the Baptist Hoxton surname Doutfire
Reuben Doutfier was baptised at the same place 4 November 1866 also 7 Barton Court
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Elizabeth was baptised at St John the Baptist Hoxton surname Doutfire
Reuben Doutfier was baptised at the same place 4 November 1866 also 7 Barton Court
I think I'm getting myself in a bit off a pickle here then. I thought these two children were born to the other Sarah and Richard as Reuben's death record shows the address of the family as 17 Hoxton Street.
I can't find the baptism records for either of these two, where did you find them?
Confused now!
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They are both on Ancestry, I found them by trawling :)
Reuben is transcribed as Reuben Dontfier, Elizabeth as Doutfire.
I doubt that there is another Richard / Sarah Doubtfire. Have you seen them on census anywhere.
Maybe Mary Ann's certificate will show a different maiden name for Sarah. If not I would be considering buying one of the certificates for a child born after the 1866 marriage.
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And possible reason for Sarah being baptised on 7 May 1869 is that she was possibly not expected to live - pb = private baptism.
FreeBMD show Elizabeth and Sarah Doubtfire on the same page - June quarter 1869 - Shoreditch, page 169
Deaths of Elizabeth and Sarah - June quarter 1869 - Shoreditch - Elizabeth page 130 and Sarah page 128.
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They are both on Ancestry, I found them by trawling :)
Reuben is transcribed as Reuben Dontfier, Elizabeth as Doutfire.
I doubt that there is another Richard / Sarah Doubtfire. Have you seen them on census anywhere.
Maybe Mary Ann's certificate will show a different maiden name for Sarah. If not I would be considering buying one of the certificates for a child born after the 1866 marriage.
I've been having such trouble with incorrectly transcribed names, it's made searching a bit of a challenge. I've found them both now and see what you mean.
This is very confusing. Having a marriage record for a Richard Doubtfire & Sarah Tyler, but a birth record where the mothers name reads as Sarah Doubtfire formally Earl. One the Doubtfire/Tyler marriage record it says that they were bachelor and spinster, neither widowed or divorced previously. So I'd discounted the fact that Sarah Tyler could be Sarah Earl.
I'm not sure what I do if Mary Doubtfire's birth record comes back with the mothers name as Sarah Tyler. I'm finding this rather difficult to make sense of.
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And possible reason for Sarah being baptised on 7 May 1869 is that she was possibly not expected to live - pb = private baptism.
FreeBMD show Elizabeth and Sarah Doubtfire on the same page - June quarter 1869 - Shoreditch, page 169
Deaths of Elizabeth and Sarah - June quarter 1869 - Shoreditch - Elizabeth page 130 and Sarah page 128.
More twins? There seems to be a lot of twins in the family!
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Who registered Richards birth, Sarah or Richard
They certainly lost a lot of children in infancy. :'(
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Who registered Richards birth, Sarah or Richard
They certainly lost a lot of children in infancy. :'(
In the box for 'Signature, description and residence of informant' it says X the mark of Sarah Doubtfire Mother 4 Teale Street Bethnal Green.
Yes, they lost a lot of children. Also, their son Richard who married Harriet Hemmingway lost a lot of children. They had 15 kids (one I can't seem to find), and only 4 of those children out lived their father, most of them died before the age of 7 years. Terribly sad, but they were in a very poor and deprived area of London.
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So, here is an interesting turn of events. I received Mary Ann Doubtfire's birth certificate.
I was expecting it to say her mother was Sarah Doubtfire formally Earl, as her birth in 1857 was nine years before the record I found Richard Doubtfire and Sarah Tyler's marriage in 1866.
However, Mary's birth certificate says she was born 20th October 1857 at 15 Mead Street to Richard Doubtfire and Sarah Doubtfire formally Tyler!
So now where do I go? This Mary isn't the full sister of my ancestor Richard Doubtfire b.1849.
I now have no lead on his family as the one I was convinced was his turns out not to be, as far as I can tell.
It's the wrong Sarah.
(Wanders off to head butt a wall)
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It is quite possible that the name of Earl was written down wrongly by the registrar on Richards certificate. As Sarah could not write her name she probably could not check what had been written down.
There is also a chance that the name was written down wrongly on the copy sent to the GRO