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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Soubeyran on Tuesday 19 August 14 04:53 BST (UK)
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Hi, returning to Rootschat after a few years, wondering if anyone can help me through a 'brick wall'? :-)
The above-mentioned Private Marine Thomas was my ggg grandfather, and ALL I have on him is that his wife was Elizabeth, they had a son, also Thomas, born December 1823, baptised in 1824 by H. Frazer, and they lived in Godfrey Street (now Godfrey Road), Kent at the time.
All of the above comes from Thomas junior's baptism record, but I've drawn a blank on all my 'usual' searches for marriage/siblings etc., also on initial online searches on the Marines records at Woolwich.
Any thoughts or possible leads very welcome! :-)
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Here is the National Archives guide to researching Royal Marines - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/royalmarines.htm
There is a link to a search.
I cannot see a surname, unless he was Thomas Thomas. You also appear to have missed off the town in Kent. There were two Divisions in Kent - Chatham and Deal. If you cannot find him online you will have to go to the National Archives and start with the records under the correct division.
I am not aware of the Royal Marine records they have in Woolwich, The museum in Southsea have some, but the NA has the biggest collection.
Ken
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I presume that this is the christening of Thomas Jnr in Woolwich 1824
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J3MY-G6T
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Thanks, Rosie, and yes: I have an image of the actual record.
Since posting I've discovered (on Rootschat) the possible reason why I've had difficulties finding other information about the marriage/siblings. Apparently only around 1 in a hundred non-officers marines were given permission to get married.
Unless I hear otherwise, I reckon success or failure will be entirely down to a physical search ..
Graeme
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Do you have any of them on census 1841/51 if so where.
I can see an Elizabeth Burrell in Greenwich in 1841 with Thomas Burrell 17 and Ann Burrell 12. In 1851 this could be the same Elizabeth
H0107/1587 f245 p35 Spring Gardens, Greenwich
Thomas Burrell Thomas Burrell age 66 Greenwich Pensioner bn Ireland
Elizabeth Burrell age 59 bn Plymouth, Devonshire
Ann Burrell age 22 bn Cripplegate, Middlesex
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Thanks SO much for this, Rosie!
All are interesting & I'll look deeper when I get to the library.. the only one I doubt is the Ann age 22, as I seem to remember an Ann Burrell born in Greenwich, but there was nothing to really tie her down..
The Elizabeth with son Thomas & Daughter Ann certainly looks promising..
I'll let you know how I get on. :-)
Graeme
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Thanks, Ken - nearly missed your reply!
I'm pretty certain it'll be the Woolwich Division, and suspect you're right about having to do a manual search, probably at the NA.
But experience tells me that ALL suggestions are useful, as everyone has their own methods/perspective, and sometimes just a slight remark leads on to a different approach!
Graeme
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Hi,
As Thomas is a Greenwich Pensioner in 1851 I wonder if these documents concern him,
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9966457
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9966459
I also found this Thomas transcribed as BARRETT but looks like BURRELL on the image, the other t's are crossed but not on the ELL and the UR looks like the ur in the word Surgery.
1841 HO107/489/18 f.18 p.3 Greenwich
Infirmary Royal Hospital Greenwich
Thomas BURRELL 55 Surgery Mate Marine I
(The Surgery Mate has been dittoed from an above entry)
Regards,
Daisy
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Hi Daisy,
thanks SO much for this! It certainly looks very promising, as it would make him around 40 when his son was born.. when I get to the library so I can view the census record I should be able to get a birth town ( then possibly birth/marriage records), which (by experience) was the most I was really hoping for! :-)
FYI I did search the census National Archive details, but I didn't have even an approximate birth date or location for the census & the only naval record I found for the name was the wrong era. Either I screwed up or you're more experienced than me!
I'll let you know if/when I confirm him as 'my' Thomas! :-)
Graeme
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PS I just realised I screwed up on the search just now, and if this is the right Thomas it means the Burrells were originally from Ireland! :-)
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Blimey!: just did a birth search on ancestry.com for Thomas Burrell born Ireland 1778-88 & got a Chelsea Pensioner record for one born in Galway 1784!
I know that Chelsea was for ex-army, but I just found a reference on Rootschat thread (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=663581.0) mentioning another Marine listed as a Chelsea Pensioner, so this *might* be him..
Funnily enough Galway is the ONLY town in Ireland I've ever been to (stag weekend), and I did feel strangely 'at home' there..
I'll let you know.. :-)
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Funnily enough I believe he is my 4G grandfather and he spent time in the Chelsea Hospital and also the one at Greenwich as he was a Greenwich pensioner (or there were 2 Thomas Burrell's born in the Parish of St Nicholas in Galway in the same year who both became Marines!)
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Hi,
I can see an Ancestry record of Chelsea Pensioner Thomas BURRELL, I think it says that he was from the 11 Foot so I think he might be this man instead of your Thomas, Royal Marine.
This one is age 33 in 1821 so born abt. 1778 so maybe not the one you have found :-\ I can't find one born 1784 :-[
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8829407
FindMyPast has these details,
Private Thomas BURRELL
Born: St Nicholas, Galway
Enlisted at: Plymouth, Devon
Date: 03 November 1811
Age: 24
For Unlimited Service
He served for 9 years and 68 days
11th Regiment of Foot from 03 November 1811 to 09 January 1821
That in consequence of Chronic Affection of the Lungs - six months - At Gibraltar
Discharged
General conduct: Good
Age: 33
Height: 5ft 5in
Hair: Sandy
Eyes: Grey
Complexion: Fresh
I think there must be two Thomas BURRELL's as Chelsea Pensioners were Army and Greenwich Pensioners were Navy, Marines, or from the Naval Dockyards.
What makes you think that Thomas BURRELL, Marine was born in Galway?
Daisy
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Hi again,
Just to confuse matters further ::) :) I found another Thomas BURREL in 1851,
1851 HO107/1587 f.435 p.42 Greenwich
Greenwich Hospital
Thomas BURREL Private pension? S Married Male 67 In Pensioners? Ireland Armagh
I wonder if this is the same Thomas BURRELL that is enumerated with his wife Elizabeth in 1851, I've seen double entries before.
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Hi
I have found 2 discharge papers for Thomas on Ancestry - one in 1820 and one in 1821 - both are listed as coming from St Nicholas Parish, Galway, both have the same 9 years 68 days service with the 11th Foot Regiment - with the second 1821 discharge paper including an extra 98 days with the 6th Royal Veteran Battalion (discharge due to this Battalion being disbanded). Both papers list the man as 5' 5" sandy hair, grey eyes and fresh complexion - the only difference is age is given as 24 years in 1820 and 33 in 1821 - and I don't believe in coincidences like that:). There is also a (Greenwich pensioners who served in Canada) record of Thomas stating his age as 33 with 9 years and 2 months service. His 1911 Census identifies him as a Greenwich Pensioner born in Ireland.
Whether the discharge papers relate to the Thomas Burrell I am interested in isn't proven of course and this post has other records in it suggesting there is a Thomas Burrell with 20 years service also from Ireland.
Just noticed your latest post as I went to post this - I have not spotted that record before - it may well correspond with Thomas and Elizabeth in the 51 census - thanks for that I will follow up on it
Cheers
Kev
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Oh, and I forgot to mention that the 11th Foot Regiment served as Marines in the early 1800's particularly during the French revolution
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Interesting to know about the 11th Foot/Marines, I don't know much about military history.
I hope you don't mind me summarising but I'm starting to get confused :-[ ;)
I agree that the two Thomas BURRELLs from Galway are the same one as the records seem to show a continuation/re-enlistment.
The first one as previously posted, that shows he enlisted in 1811 at Plymouth aged 24 then finished his service on 09 Jan 1821.
The second one shows he enlisted in Sheerness on the 10 Jan 1821 aged 33, so that would be right.
They also both give his occupation as Cordwainer.
The Chelsea Pensioner record also seems to be him as the April 1821 date and the reason of being there, chronic infection of the lungs, matches the first reason for discharge.
There does seem to be a small discrepancy in the age of the Thomas BURRELL above who says he is born abt. 1787 and the age of the Thomas with Elizabeth in 1851, born abt. 1784 but this often happens so doesn't mean they are different people ???
I can see the baptism of Thomas jnr in 1824 when Thomas Snr is called a Royal Marine, would he still be called that if he had been discharged?
Have you found the marriage of Thomas and Elizabeth?
What happens to Thomas jnr after that?
Sorry, so many questions but it is a very interesting puzzle :)
Daisy
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1st Battalion, 11th Regiment did supply detachments of troops for use as marines on board ship in the 1790's, in the Mediterranean, but that's too early for your purposes isn't it. West Indies 1800 to 1806. Then Peninsular War. A 2nd Battalion was formed in 1809 for the Walcheren expedition.
Better keep army and marines separate, still a wealth of information.
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Hi all, many thanks for the info!
I have to get ready for work, but to quickly summarise how I see it, there are 2 Thomas Burrells in question, 1 born in Galway, the other in Armagh: I may be able to get more information about the latter from the same source as I got info about the Galway Thomas. It would also be handy if his discharge record could be found.
The discrepancy in age/birth date in the Thomas living with Elizabeth in 1851 can be accounted for age given in the 1851 census being to the nearest 5 years for adults, lower age.
The army Galway Thomas enlisted in Plymouth, which is where Elizabeth was born. I think I have a possible father who worked in the dockyard.
I got the Galway birthplace from a transcript/image of an 1841 inpatient record for a Thomas Burrell at Greenwich Hospital: incorrectly transcribed as Denmure (no such place), actually Dunmore, Galway, which matches up with the St Nicholas Parish. Gives his occupation as clerk, last ship HMS Beagle, which also matches up: Beagle was originally launched May 1820, but only used once -" July of that year she took part in a fleet review celebrating the coronation of King George IV of the United Kingdom, and for that occasion is said to have been the first ship to sail under the old London Bridge" (Wikipedia) - after that she "lay in ordinary" until being refitted as a barque for expeditions.
All this has made my head spin: I've started putting data into a spreadsheet so info for the 21 or 3 Thomases can be compared!
See you later, Graeme
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DaisyPetal - to answer your other questions...
Yes, Thomas Burrell (marine) married Elizabeth Lamb on 7th June 1822 at St James Westminster.
Thomas Jnr went on to marry Hannah Lombard with 4 (that I have found) children - including another Thomas Burrell (who went on to marry Emma Mills, father 12 children, including a Thomas Burrell who was my Grand Father and another son who was, I suspect Soubeyran's Grandfather if he is indeed the Graeme I have conversed with on Ancestry:0)
Since starting to look at my family tree a couple of years ago I have found over 100 living relatives I never previously knew about just looking at the Burrell line - something similar on my mothers side - for both Parks and Starlings - and have had the pleasure of conversing with 2 second cousins I would never have known if these web sites did not exist. In fact I also found out that my father has 2 cousins still living not that far from him, but at 83 I think he feels it is too late to contact them now as they have been out of contact since he was around 14 (but I keep trying)
Am dreading going back to my paternal grand mothers line as she was a Wallace from Gateshead - though I found her family in the census - I checked just one of her brothers birth registrations - a William Wallace and found 42 such people born in the same year in the Gateshead area alone - I didn't bother looking any further on line and think I need to find work up in Newcastle to have any chance there!!
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'Beagle', wasn't that the ship that took Charles Darwin to discover the origin of species?
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I assume it was the same ship as the Beagles voyages started in 1826 with Darwin's being its second voyage in 1831 - sadly after my relative had left the ship - though looking at Wikipedia he may have been on the ship when she was the first to sail under the old London Bridge in July 1820 - a smaller claim to fame!... assuming Wikipedia is correct of course!!
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Hi Kev & Daisy!
I saw the Westminster marriage, but had pretty much discounted that as an unlikely parish/church for a private/marine to get married in. I found (what I think is) a more likely candidate: a Thomas Burrell married an Elizabeth Pardew in Greenwich in 1823, I think. It was unusual for ordinary ranks of sailors/marines to get married, Greenwich is the next parish along, and there is an Elizabeth Pardew born in Plymouth, where Thomas' wife came from, & where Thomas enlisted. And I think I found a relative (father or uncle) of that Elizabeth who worked in the Plymouth dockyard. Although it was unusual for ordinary ranks to be married, it wasn't unusual to have partners & children. I think I found a daughter Mary that also seems to 'fit'.
Experience tells me the Armagh Thomas shouldn't be discounted, but I suspect he may be a red herring as the Galway Thomas ticks a lot of boxes. I suspect Kevin **& I missed him because of the spelling.
I'll post again once I've collated everything I've got on the 2 (or 3) Thomases. :-)
Graeme
PS Kevin, I spoke to my aunt June, & she'd love to hear from your dad!
If Thomas was in the army but spent a long time assigned to ships, that possibly explains why he applied to both Chelsea & Woolwich hospitals.
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Oh yes, it was the Darwin Beagle! It never saw service as a fighting ship as it was completed after the Bonaparte thing was over. It seems to have made only 1 voyage - leading a flotilla under London Bridge, I got that from a reliable source. It was then put 'in storage' as I said, docked with its masts/sails removed, before being converted to a barque a few years later for exploration purposes.
Darwin's voyage was the second one.. it did a third voyage, then was kitted out as a light ship, before finally being broken up. It wold possibly have been 'saved' had Darwin not delayed publishing 'origins of species'!
BTW I have a photograph of the actual log that shows his last ship, so if we have the right Tomas there's no doubt. :-)
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There are too many damn Thomas Burrell's!! Still I suppose we could have been called Smith - and I don't think I have helped matters calling my son Thomas either:0)
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I must admit the only reason I assumed the Elizabeth Lamb marriage was the correct one was because the Woolwich baptism record I found for Thomas with Thomas (as a private marine) and Elizabeth as parents lists his birth as 13th December 1823 which fitted in better with that marriage than one in 1825 - but that said I agree with your thoughts on location - and to be fair there is a Banns record for the day before this marriage that identified both Thomas & Elizabeth as being born in 1801 which I have conveniently forgotten about. What is the betting that there were 2 Thomas Burrell's from Ireland who were both marines, and they both married an Elizabeth and both had a son named Thomas
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Yes Kevin, was beginning to think that myself! 2 Thomases from Galway, born similar years with wife Elizabeth/son Thomas: Elizabeth was a common name I think at the time, also seems a Burrell tradition (in our line at least!) to name son after father!
I'd also 'forgotten' that the Thomas you found the discharge papers for served with the 11th Foot for 9 years, but the one I have a photo of the Woolwich Hospital record for served for 20 years! Mind you he was definitely a marine, as confirmed by another enquiry I posted here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=712107.msg5556868#msg5556868
It gives him having a boy and a girl which matches my supposition that they had a daughter Mary, and there's a question mark against married which suggests both our married records may be incorrect: as I said it was 'normal' for sailors/marines apart from officers not to get married.
It also gives his age as 56, which makes his birth year c. 1785, and I've just realised that his address is Cartright St Tower Hill, so I think we need to search for 'the other Elizabeth' there in the 1841 census!
I still think there's circumstantial evidence to suggest the Greenwich marriage Elizabeth might be 'our' Elizabeth, because of the link to Plymouth.. oh, and I've just realised I saw somthing about the 11th Foot recruiting in Galway in the early 19th century.
This particular conundrum is getting a bit complex, with evidence all over the place: I saw an app/some software on Twitter mentioned a few days ago that an writer/director uses for collaboration with other artists, using a 'wall' you pin documents & pictures on. I'll check it out & see if we could use it to put all Thomas' documents in one place! :-)
Speak later.
G
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Well, as I had nothing better to do today (the wife said the grass needs cutting, but, as I said, I had nothing better to do today!) - so I scrolled through 1841 census records for Cartwright Street - and in fact the whole Parish of St Botolph hoping to find something (sounds a lot - but there were only 14 scans, so 28 pages) - all to no avail:( Only one Barell family (Brigit, not Elizabeth) and a Frances Burrell (a mariner). There were a few Elizabeth's on their own who were in the right age range but that does not really help. Will keep looking until I get beaten for not doing the grass:)
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Thanks Kevin.. any of the Elizabeths called Pardew?
I've started trying to get my head round 'St Nicholas': the problem is there's a civic parish (from 1792), an Anglican one (church of Ireland), and the St Nicholas Collegiate church in Galway city.. which, incidentally, is in the diocese of Armargh, surprisingly!
Researching the Burrell/Sargent's in the east end has taught me you not only have to take into account which parish/location someone was 'from' *when they were born*, but also at the time they were asked & who asked them: in terms of the individual asking, the organisation they were asking for, & which year they were asking!
I'm guesstimating that Thomas wasn't catholic (unless you know otherwise), but that doesn't necessarily mean he/others didn't use the catholic church's definition of 'birthplace'.
Lots of work ahead on this, I think: ATM I'm both putting the facts/timeline for each instance of 'Thomas' into a spreadsheet to see what matches up/what differs, & investigating that app I mentioned for sharing projects: it would suit me as it supports Android & Windows 8: what phone/PC do you have?
It would be handy having a central 'wall' we could both post data/pics to.. :-)
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Quick update: I think I may have mistranscribed Thomas' birthplace from the Woolwich Hospital record. Mine was 'influenced' by the original transcription 'Denmure' (no such place) as 'Dunmore'.
I was just uploading the photo to the app (Trello, there's a link to the 'wall' in case you don't have Android/Windows 8 Trello board Thomas Burrell - https://trello.com/b/fdRaBBGn/thomas-burrell.), and I realise it could be 'Drumcree', which would match up with Daisy's 'institution' 1841 census record of 'Armagh' as birthplace: Drumcree is in County Armagh.
If you follow the Trello link you can see the Woolwich Hospital record: what do you think?
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When I first looked at it I thought it said Domicile of Ireland!! But the r of Ireland is joined from the bottom rather than the top, and comparing the m of Durham in the record below it could easily be Drumcree following that pattern - and the more I look at it, the more I think it is Drumcree
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Ok, and Trello looks like a useful site for doc sharing.
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meant Oh, not OK!
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Hi,
Have you seen this baptism?
St Botolph Aldgate
03 Sept 1837
Born: 29 Sept 1828
Ann
Daur of : Thomas & Elizabeth BURRELL
Cartwright St.
Labourer
This Ann would fit the one showing in 1841 and 1851, and the address fits the Woolwich Hospital entry papers :)
Daisy
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I was going to say yes but very similar to the one I did find
NAME: Ann Burrell
GENDER: Female
BIRTH DATE: 29 Sep 1828
BAPTISM DATE: 3 Sep 1837
BAPTISM PLACE:
St Botolph Without Aldgate,London,London,England
FATHER: Thomas Burrell
MOTHER: Elizabeth
FHL FILM NUMBER: 380134, 380135
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Oops, sorry, mixing up my numbers there :-[
I have modified my posting to show the dates shown on the image.
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What records did you get this from - I only found the index entry on Ancestry & family search which does not give the address - so that is useful info
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I found it at Ancestry in the "London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906" collection. Oddly it doesn't show on the search if you put her approx. birthdate in 1829 +/-2 as it is indexed only under the baptism date of 1837.
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Ah, would never have thought to do that - you learn something new every day! Thank you
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Hi Daisy: I'm having real problems finding the 1841 record for Elizabeth. No result on the basic search: do youhappen to have the HO number or the enumeration district for her?
Ta,
Graeme x
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Graeme, I found the record originally on FindMyPast - having just searched for it on Ancestry, it seems to have been transcribed as Bursell rather than Burrell... Born 1789, no birth place transcribed, living in Greenwich
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Thanks! Picked that up on the way here to the library: was going to do a trawl through the entire Greenwich East ED, so it's saved me a lot of time!
Haven't been able to find the street - 'Little [something] Street' on any of my guesses, will wait til I get home!
G
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FindMyPast transcribed it as Marlborough Street, Little Greenwich, Greenwich - not that I have actually checked that on the original!!
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I assume the transcriber wrote Marlborough Street, Little, Greenwich though why he/she did not just write Little Marlborough Street I don't know, it is pretty obvious!
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Hello
My mother and aunt are your fathers cousins. I have more details of the family in Durham.
Your grandmother was the eldest of 5 children, and her mother Kate (Catherine) Wallace nee Black died when the youngest child was only about 2 years old. Their father William John Wallace then married Alice Bowman and the children acquired a stepmother. My gran Kate Wallace was not too keen on Alice.
Mom, Jean and aunt Patricia send their best wishes to your father.
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Mrsmc63 - it is really good to hear from relatives - particularly from the Wallace side as I (and my father) have very little info - I have PM'd you
Kev