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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Finley 1 on Monday 18 August 14 16:05 BST (UK)

Title: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: Finley 1 on Monday 18 August 14 16:05 BST (UK)
I know we all like to discover the 'truth' or as near to it as poss.  regarding our ANCESTORS - but sometimes - when it comes close to home... it can be a little more difficult to cope with.

It seems I --- me myself  -- have had the full truth ---- or lets say been lied to --- by a very close family member.

NO I am me... and my parents are mine... :) :) :) (or as far as can be seen in black and white :) )

Its the dates on the papers for Mothers divorce that have shaken me!!!! ho hum


good job I know now   before I writ me epitaph or wotever... ooooo she was a madam.... !!!!


xin
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: iluleah on Monday 18 August 14 16:16 BST (UK)
I know what you mean Xin ::)

No one would give me information in the family when I began my research so I had to start off with clues from what my great aunt told me when I was a child, which my Nana and Mum always laughed off when I told them.
My mum told me nothing (I sense something to hide) still won't
My Nana would tell me some things once she realised I was going to research and saw the information I had in the folder, giving me lots of great information BUT I kept hitting brick walls and no internet then and living in another county it became frustrating with no one to ask for help, it was only when I started researching again and Nana had by then died, I realised my honest, trustworthy Nana had lied and deliberately too, that was such a shock to me, because I always trusted every word she said.
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: Finley 1 on Monday 18 August 14 16:30 BST (UK)
Yes that's it - exactly - It seems I am the last to know - because it was felt a child didn't need to know..............

Now I am almost the last - left I am so glad I do know.  Then the correct people can be put on the pedestal and the others .....knocked off..... :)
i am not angry  no i am not angry... no......


still smiling   :) cos u got to havent you


xin


ps iluleah are u sure we are not ... connected  he he he he
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: iluleah on Monday 18 August 14 17:54 BST (UK)
I have to say Xin it makes me smile every time when my mother casually asks if I am still researching and I say "Oh yes" and make sure my 'folder' is left about knowing she will take a look, but what she doesn't know is nothing different to what I was told is in that folder, so she sneaks a look and I have caught her doing that and she still thinks I don't know the 'secrets'. I do and found them and more and they are all documented, she would have a fit if she knew I knew

What annoys me is that my cousin has now started to research and my mum tells him to ask me, my cousin holds ALL the photographs and family documents and pretends he doesn't, he will let me see nothing at all and shares nothing, so he will get nothing from me, makes me cross that my mum thinks it is OK for him to research but not me, maybe I have lulled her into a false sense of security and she thinks no one can find out. ;D
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Monday 18 August 14 18:15 BST (UK)
- Perhaps you ought to leave the real folder for her? Or create something far more dreadful for her - or the unforthcoming cousin - to "find" to shock them in to deciding that the truth would be a better alternative??
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: iluleah on Monday 18 August 14 18:48 BST (UK)
Quote from: ThrelfallYorky on Monday 18 August 14 18:15 BST (UK)
- Perhaps you ought to leave the real folder for her? Or create something far more dreadful for her - or the unforthcoming cousin - to "find" to shock them in to deciding that the truth would be a better alternative??

I have thought of doing that, however my mother is the type of person who 'knows' everything and when some years ago I gave her a copy of a photograph which I had professionally framed of her grandparents and their children (her father and his siblings) that I had been given when sharing information with one of the descendants of one of my grandfathers brothers who had migrated the other side of the World  she was sooooooooooo ungrateful. Until that time I had never seen a photo of my great grandparents  and asked her then if she had and she just said no photos were taken ( clearly they were and I am sure my cousin has many).
Funny thing was her face gave nothing away and one of the many deliberate lies I was told was the name of my great grandfather, so as I passed it to her and as she was opening it, I said his name and his wifes name and added YOUR grandparents ;D

Anything I have told her in the past which I know she doesn't know about, she just pretends she already knew and so I get  no sadistic pleasure  out of it at all but I do knowing she has no idea but won't ask me. As I have caught her sneaking a look on more than one occasion which she wouldn't do if she really knew .........it keeps her on her toes
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Tuesday 19 August 14 17:33 BST (UK)
She sounds as if she needs to think a lot of things out.
 Perhaps you could shock her or the cousin by asking them to write down the truth, seal it up, and hand it to some "authority" to be opened in 20 / 50 years, (just so posterity gets it right??) even if they don't "trust" you with it?
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: 777777 on Tuesday 19 August 14 17:43 BST (UK)
One of the first discoveries I made as a teenager innocently doing a family tree was that my great-grandfather was illegitimate. None of his children (my grandmother and her sisters) had any idea that he had been born out of wedlock, they had always been told their grandfather had died very young and their grandmother had remarried. I managed to find out who the father of my great-grandfather was after much rooting around, and had the somewhat unpleasant task of telling my own grandmother who her grandfather was. It turned out to be someone she had known, but of course she had no idea he was her grandfather. She was shocked, but glad to know the truth.
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: weste on Tuesday 19 August 14 18:05 BST (UK)
One of my moms cousins did n't know he was adopted until he got married at 21. He needed his birth cert for some reason, at a guess for a passport. His wife found out about he was adopted and told him but everyone roundabout knew who the father was.  It definetly could have been the one he knew as his father because an accident left him sterile!

One of my cousins is adopted but we don't know if they know, fortunately I'm not in touch but I know another knows and said to me that a certain uncle had an affair.

I suppose people have their own agenda for deliberately lying and I suppose find they can't back down once it's been going for so long. I think I'd have a bit of fun with folders as well. What about putting some lists to do of things you want to sort out. Sign them off as completed (whether done or not) but don't put the info in there.
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: iluleah on Tuesday 19 August 14 18:09 BST (UK)
Quote from: weste on Tuesday 19 August 14 18:05 BST (UK)

I suppose people have their own agenda for deliberately lying and I suppose find they can't back down once it's been going for so long. I think I'd have a bit of fun with folders as well. What about putting some lists to do of things you want to sort out. Sign them off as completed (whether done or not) but don't put the info in there.

Like it ;D ;D

I have to say I gave up worrying about her behaviour and 'attitude' a long time ago.
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: suey on Tuesday 19 August 14 19:11 BST (UK)
 
Quote
What annoys me is that my cousin has now started to research and my mum tells him to ask me, my cousin holds ALL the photographs and family documents and pretends he doesn't, he will let me see nothing at all and shares nothing,

What the dickens is that all about  :o  how mean can you be!....There's nothing quite so peculiar as family.



 
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: weste on Tuesday 19 August 14 19:31 BST (UK)
I'm still trying to find a photo of paternal side grandfather. I know some of the children of the older members of the family must have. Dad's and his brothers have all died and I bet there's people who have the photos and don't know who  they are. Had gran kids of an aunt  contact via ancestry. Gave them a good start on the family history but no Certs and have  2 marriage Certs since which the one aunt 's grand children would probably like but they ain't having  . They could at least have  sent one photo of their family  some info ! Not usually so mean but decided  they need to share as well, downloaded info off my tree etc which I would have given permission anyway. So made it private so they need to ask! So I'm having fun. Sometimes strangers are more generous. That way I don't bother about their attitude and behaviour!
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: iluleah on Tuesday 19 August 14 19:53 BST (UK)
Quote from: suey on Tuesday 19 August 14 19:11 BST (UK)
 
Quote
What annoys me is that my cousin has now started to research and my mum tells him to ask me, my cousin holds ALL the photographs and family documents and pretends he doesn't, he will let me see nothing at all and shares nothing,

What the dickens is that all about  :o  how mean can you be!....There's nothing quite so peculiar as family.

You can't choose your family, mine unfortunately are magpies ...as children we used to play in the huge attic and there were chests in there which we used to open, full of scrolls, letters, books etc and being children we played with them, me being the oldest got into trouble while he stood behind me as little innocent and being led by me (he wasn't innocent or led) "Old family papers, deeds, photos and history" is what I remember being said and even on reading some bits of them I remember names I am looking at now in my ancestry.....guess whose house that is now, my cousins so I know he has them.
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: Jaxyfone on Tuesday 19 August 14 22:32 BST (UK)
My father in law was illegitimate and spent the first three years of his life - so we believe - in an institution. He was taken out of there when his mother married - again, we believe - his stepfather (who may have been his natural father - who knows?!). For some reason Dad was always called after his step-granddad and never learned his real name until he missed his initial WW2 call-up. He could barely read and because his call-up papers didn't show the name he recognised as his 'own', he naturally ignored them. Fortunately his mother put him right and the army were understanding enough to give him a second chance without it affecting his record.

We're still struggling to find out anything about him, though. He had a pretty rotten childhood by all accounts and would never talk about his family or his past up until he joined the army (he loved the army). I have his mother's/stepfather's marriage certificate, which names her father, but I simply cannot find the man at all, whatever version of the surname I use or however broadly I search. Both witnesses at the wedding were the husband's family. I can't even find her in the two census' that took place before her marriage.

What my husband thinks, on reflection, is that his nana had a somewhat broad concept of 'truth', maybe giving out names that weren't hers or even her family's (or maybe she felt ashamed,  although the family were a long way below 'respectable middle class', if you know what I mean) . There are cousins whom we plan to ask, but we somehow doubt we're going to get very much further.  :-\
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: LizzieW on Tuesday 19 August 14 22:50 BST (UK)
I don't think our parents, grandparents etc. deliberately lied to us when we were children, it was more a case of "You don't need to know."  Interestingly, my younger brother (now deceased from a brain tumour sadly) was 12 years younger than me yet he was told family "secrets" that I hadn't been told as a child, obviously as the years went on there was less of a need to keep things quiet.

Mind you I did the same thing. As many Rootschatters will know I had an illegitimate baby girl in 1960 who I was forced to have adopted "so that no-one (for that read neighbours, friends and relations) will know" and I never told anyone until in 2005 I received a letter from her - she had traced me.  Then I had to tell my husband and children, fortunately all was well but when I showed my mother photos and told her we'd been to meet my daughter, she then told me that she'd told one of her sisters, who no doubt told at least one other and so my older cousins would also have known - so what was the point in making me give up my baby?
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: Viktoria on Tuesday 19 August 14 23:23 BST (UK)
 I used to live with some lovely people who were very kind to me.
I decided I`d look them up on ancestry, as one of  their names--double barrelled_ may have meant they were actually distant relatives which would have been lovely. I was very fond of them.
What I found was the chap ( who by now had died) had been adopted, but nothing had ever been mentioned of this. There was actually no reason for it to be mentioned to me.
By coincidence they had adopted a boy, illegitimate, when after some years of marriage there were still no children. You know what happened next----yes their own baby girl  was on the way.
I felt like a voyeur, I`d no idea and what is more had no idea if the children, both adopted and natural knew. If not it was not for me to inform them. Their mother has also died  by now and so perhaps the  surviving daughter will never know. Does it matter ? Well not really I suppose but the daughter was  treated very badly as her brother ( the adopted son) had not left a will  when he died  and despite him having  inherited  part of his "father`s" estate and half his "mother`s" estate his "sister " got nothing. This was mainly because he had been adopted very informally before it was legal to do it properly.
 The sister, however said :-" It does not matter, I`m not contesting it as nothing changes the fact that he was my brother".How lovely. I told you they were lovely people.
 I apologise for the inverted commas, they were just to make clear the relationship. I was not minimising the close ties .
Needless to say this info stays with me.They may be connected but by the adoption the link is lost.
 One of the double names may have been the chap`s mother`s maiden or married  name --I don`t know. But no info so it ends there. I can`t make the connecton with my distant family.
 I`ll never say, what is the point, it will alter nothing.He was a good man and a lovely dad and being adopted does not change any of that. His daughter would say;- "Nothing changes the fact that he was my dad". And that`s right. Viktoria.
 
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: iluleah on Wednesday 20 August 14 00:28 BST (UK)
Quote from: LizzieW on Tuesday 19 August 14 22:50 BST (UK)
I don't think our parents, grandparents etc. deliberately lied to us when we were children, it was more a case of "You don't need to know." .....................


I think you are right in many cases, I know my grandmother deliberately lied, she could have said she didn't know, or could have evaded the question, which she did at first then she lied even when faced with me asking directly who a person named on a tombstone in the village grave yard was, she knew who her father in law was, she deliberately lied to stop me finding information.

My mother doesn't lie she just refuses to tell ( me) ANYTHING and then when I USED TO tell her " I found this or that" she says " Oh I know" Asking her why she didn't tell me, she shrugs and goes silent, she is or I should say was hiding things she was ashamed of as well as her being on her own little "power trip". I should be used to it I have had it all my life.


Quote
Mind you I did the same thing. As many Rootschatters will know I had an illegitimate baby girl in 1960 who I was forced to have adopted "so that no-one (for that read neighbours, friends and relations) will know" and I never told anyone until in 2005 I received a letter from her - she had traced me.  Then I had to tell my husband and children, fortunately all was well but when I showed my mother photos and told her we'd been to meet my daughter, she then told me that she'd told one of her sisters, who no doubt told at least one other and so my older cousins would also have known - so what was the point in making me give up my baby?

I didn't know Lizzie and have to say I think you are brave in saying. How lovely for you that you were able to get in touch again with your daughter.
I often wonder why the people who are our family who supposed to love and care for us take/make decisions and act in ways that can only destroy part of us as an individual.
I spent my childhood trying to be good, trying to 'please' trying never to get into trouble or cause any trouble as I was 'told' I had killed a baby brother/sister but couldn't remember doing it, I would have been 3 yrs old or so. When I was young and growing up it answered lots of question in my mind why my parents had no time for me,why there was never any hugs but they allowed me to live in the house. Years later it was only when my own daughter was expecting her first child and she has a rare blood group ( same as my mum)  and she came from a hospital appointment to tell me that when she has the baby they have to give her an injection (Rh-immune globulin vaccine)or her body could 'reject' another pregnancy, it was only then the penny dropped and I realised that is what would have happened with my mum and me being very young and being told " It was my fault the expected baby died" I took it as I have killed the baby. So I even held a secret ( until right now) I thought I was a murderer and only because of miscommunication.
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: Finley 1 on Wednesday 20 August 14 08:21 BST (UK)
The words 'pale into insignificance' come to mind, when I think of MY sadness over the last few days. (regarding the personal findings in my life)

Bless you all for being so open and honest on this post. 

It shows that we never know how things are with the people around us.

Please take good care all of you.  xxxx

xin
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: larkspur on Wednesday 20 August 14 11:30 BST (UK)
Quote from: iluleah on Wednesday 20 August 14 00:28 BST (UK)
I spent my childhood trying to be good, trying to 'please' trying never to get into trouble or cause any trouble as I was 'told' I had killed a baby brother/sister but couldn't remember doing it, I would have been 3 yrs old or so. When I was young and growing up it answered lots of question in my mind why my parents had no time for me,why there was never any hugs but they allowed me to live in the house. Years later it was only when my own daughter was expecting her first child and she has a rare blood group ( same as my mum)  and she came from a hospital appointment to tell me that when she has the baby they have to give her an injection (Rh-immune globulin vaccine)or her body could 'reject' another pregnancy, it was only then the penny dropped and I realised that is what would have happened with my mum and me being very young and being told " It was my fault the expected baby died" I took it as I have killed the baby. So I even held a secret ( until right now) I thought I was a murderer and only because of miscommunication.

That is So sad, what an awful thing to have hovering over your childhood, like a huge black cloud. I hope you sent for your siblings death certificate, and waved it under your mothers nose.
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: groom on Wednesday 20 August 14 11:50 BST (UK)
What an interesting and very honest thread this is, thank you for sharing your stories.

I think it does show that, especially now, things are easy to uncover and people are easier to find. I don't suppose that 50 or so years ago people ever dreamt that their lives would be so easy to unravel and incidents they thought they had hidden would come to light.

What we now do with this knowledge is another thing. I feel that it is in the past, it is history and whatever we do or feel can't change it. We shouldn't let it spoil our lives or our future. We need to accept that our ancestors probably did what they did for a reason, perhaps guilt, perhaps to protect those they loved or maybe to protect themselves. Their actions don't reflect on us, we had no part in it and people don't judge us by what our forebearers did.
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: larkspur on Wednesday 20 August 14 12:26 BST (UK)
Well said Groom.
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: GillyJ on Wednesday 20 August 14 12:50 BST (UK)
I agree with groom - what nice comments.  Sometimes we have to just "shelve" the discoveries and move on with our lives in the present.  Holding on to anger or hurt can only cause more pain to ourselves and we can change nothing that has happened in the past. We can tell the truth to future generations so that they know, but we can never feel the emotions of another in the past which caused them to act in the way they did.
We find out the facts and they can shock or surprise and it is very sad to find out that people you trusted had lied to you or simply held things back.
I have found some things out that I never knew but my parents' generation did not talk openly about their feelings in front of children and being brought up with strong religious connections imposed a lot of guilt and shame when "rules" were broken.     
I hope that anyone who has been hurt when finding the secrets can find ways to accept them.
Title: Re: sometimes finding things is not so good
Post by: Finley 1 on Wednesday 20 August 14 18:49 BST (UK)
Yes -  wonderful thoughts...

and kind words

Move on lady move on -  is what I am telling myself..  And whatever happened 60yrs ago  - is a lifetime away from todays lifestyle... after all they only had pencils (mainly) and they were easy to erase :)  not like the web  - where what is writ - is writ   and that is it :)

I just typed the name in Google of the people involved in my discovery - and it is ALL out there...
Nowhere to run - nowhere to hide nowadays.  So as they say 'truth will out'   --Maybe--

Xin xx (more settled now t.g.)