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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: JohnLFC on Saturday 16 August 14 20:59 BST (UK)
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I have a mystery gt grandfather called Thomas Parker who appears on my grandfathers (Albert) wedding certificate in 1920 as deceased and a former Lieutenant of the 20th Hussars army regiment and who we know was from Shoreham on Sea.
Thomas is not traceable through army records.
We suspect one of them changed their name as they are also not traceable as a family in the any census. I'm not aware of any family members except we think a family member died, perhaps Albert's mum, between approx 1926 & 1931.
We've hit a brick wall tracing our family beyond them so any help would be appreciated.
Cheers.
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
When and where was Albert born? Do you have a copy of his birth cert showing his mothers name and maiden name as there are an awful lot of Albert Parker's
Have you checked the 1911 census for him? http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx
and who we know was from Shoreham on Sea.
What document do you have that confirms this was Thomas's birthplace?
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Hi, no I haven't got a birth certificate as there is little information to request it. We only know he was born in 1883.
We're quite certain that the family roots are in Shoreham by Sea, so we assume Albert was born there. He married in London and lived in Liverpool after WW1 with his wife who was from there.
My deceased uncle was taken to Shoreham as a small boy when someone was dieing in the dates I posted above.
Thomas could have been born anywhere to be honest. At this stage we know little about him.
Thank you for taking an interest.
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If Albert was born in 1883 - he was 37 when he married in 1920 - is that correct?
Is he shown as a bachelor or a widower on the 1920 marriage cert?
What was his own occupation on the 1920 marriage cert
This is the only sussex birth on freebmd in the age range and Steyning was the registration district for Shoreham http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/steyning.html
Births June qtr 1883
Albert Edward Parker Steyning 2b 314
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Welcome from me too :)
The 1920 marriage certificate sounds as though it is the earliest document you have of Albert so, as Carole's questions indicate, the detailed information on there is key to helping us help you.
So some more questions from me:
Where in London did the marriage take place
Was Albert shown as having any other given names
What was Albert's address at the time of marriage
Who were the witnesses?
Also - do you know when and where he died, and what age/birthdate was recorded for him then?
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Hi
There are 2 deaths in Liverpool - both with 1884 birthyears and only shown as Albert. One in 1949 and the other 1963 so unfortunately both before full DoB's were shown
There is no 1891 or 1901 entry that fits so I think the only possibility is the birth cert with a condition re: fathers name
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Thank you avm228 :)
Albert died in 1949 in Liverpool,if I have uploading privileges I'll show his wedding cert which is the most detailed yet frustrating doc we have of him.
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You are not allowed to display a full certificate - only those parts that need clarification
I will send you a pm with my email address and you can perhaps send it to me instead
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OK, thank you.
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The marriage cert shows that Albert was an ex-sergeant major in the Royal Field Artillery. Marriage was a registry office one - witnesses were Thomas W Dyball & May Read
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I never thought about the witnesses, just assuming they were local Londoners part of the temporary accommodation rather than close friends of either? Hmmm.
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There are a lot of WW1 records plus Medal Roll index cards for Albert Parker in the RFA. Do you have subscription access to Ancestry or FindMyPast as it would mean going through them all to see if one was a Sgt Major
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I decided to check out one of the witnesses - Thomas Dyball in the hope he also served in the RFA. I found a Medal Roll index card for him but he was with the Machine Gun Corps & also the King's Royal Rifle Corps
His WW1 service record has survived and he was born around 1896 in Croydon Surrey so no clues there
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There are a lot of WW1 records plus Medal Roll index cards for Albert Parker in the RFA. Do you have subscription access to Ancestry or FindMyPast as it would mean going through them all to see if one was a Sgt Major
I'm a member of Ancestry Carole, my cousin has Albert's army discharge papers. How do you think it could assist tracing them?
Thank you again.
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Hi,
"I have a mystery gt grandfather called Thomas Parker who appears on my grandfathers (Albert) wedding certificate.
The father's first appearance is on a child's wedding certificate and there's a cloudy family history.
These are hallmarks of birth to an unwed mother. Wouldn't be surprised if that was the case here.
Jann.
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Hi,
"I have a mystery gt grandfather called Thomas Parker who appears on my grandfathers (Albert) wedding certificate.
The father's first appearance is on a child's wedding certificate and there's a cloudy family history.
These are hallmarks of birth to an unwed mother. Wouldn't be surprised if that was the case here.
Jann.
Hi :) Who did your Albert marry Jann?
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Hello to all,
I have read the previous posts and wondered what information exists to link the family to Shoreham on Sea. Also, what dates this shows them as living there?
It may be possible to find some details on the family, or clues at least, by searching the street, or trade, directories for Shoreham for the years in question. I may be able to assist with this search.
What evidence exists to indicate there was a change of name? Was it something concrete, or because they cannot be found on census returns etc?
Jo.
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Hi Jo
We don't have any concrete evidence except the certainty of my elder family members that they were from Shoreham. The name change theory comes from my uncle (Alberts son) once suggesting he thinks somebody changed their name. There is nothing firm on a census of those two living in Sussex, and because we don't know if there are other siblings or Alberts mothers name we can't make a definite link to a Thomas or Albert living together outside of that area (like London).
The wedding cert is dated 1921 indicating Thomas was already deceased. Another uncle made notes that he thinks Thomas served in the Hussars between 1862 & 1883 but www.soldiersofthequeen.com advise me they can't find any records of him so perhaps he, not Albert changed the name.
Albert was born in 1883. We don't have any street names.
I can email you Alberts wedding cert if you want.
Let me know if you need anything else Jo, if you can help I'll be indebted forever :)
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Hello JohnLFC,
It looks to me as if the information is all a bit tenuous with nothing very certain held at all. The problem with things passed down the family is that often they have no factual basis. I have come across this in my own research, where one gt grandmother in particular, told my mother all sorts of interesting family history, nearly all of which has been proved to be untrue.
Unless there is some definite factual basis for the stories that have been passed down, I would be inclined to be very wary of these.
My thought on the name change is that Albert was illegitimate as another person has suggested. He would have had his birth registered, maybe baptised, in his mother's name, so he could have changed his name to Parker to acknowledge his father.
Unless you can find something to show Thomas served in the Hussars, again be wary of this information. This tends to be supported by the fact that there is no official record to verify the details.
I think we may be looking at needles and haystacks with this one.
Bear in mind that in the years you are talking about, Shoreham on Sea would have been a tiny fishing village and port. Most of the town that exists today was built up much later on.
My thought would be to try and identify details for Thomas Parker if possible. We know he died pre 1920, so have you tried to find a death for him? That would be a certainty but not easy to be sure as it is such a common name. We know he was alive in 1883, so died between then and 1920. It is possible that he was married to another at the time Albert was born.
It might be worth contacting the Sussex Family History Group to see if they can shed any light on this and the connection to Shoreham, Sussex. http://www.sfhg.org.uk/
The search for Albert's mother will be a very time consuming task indeed. It could mean looking at all the births registered for Albert in 1883 if you are sure he was born in that year. Does anyone know his birthday date?
Jo.
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Just a thought but if all else fails, there will be the 1921 census with Albert and his wife on it. This should show his place of birth which might make it possible to trace him.
Jo.
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Thank you so much for taking the time to look at this Jo. You've given me a lot to think about, I'll ask my cousin if we know the DOB of Albert and follow your tips and re-visit my old notes.
I think I even discovered a Thomas Parker that died in a Brighton Sanatorium in the early 1900's!
(Albert died with dementia eventually!)
I'll pop back in to keep you updated.
Thank you again.
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Thanks for this response.
The date of birth of Albert Parker would be a great help as that way it will narrow any search for his birth registration and baptism. In the event he was born in Shoreham, there are two old churches there where he may have been baptised.
http://www.saintnicolas.org.uk/
http://www.stmarydehaura.org.uk/
His year of birth may have been 1884 as that looks likely from his death registration.
Don't rule out the death of Thomas Parker in the Brighton sanatorium. There are records for this place in the archives at The Keep, the new East sussex Record office.
Do let us all know of developments.
Jo
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No luck so far. I written to the Army with details of Albert Parker but they have referred me to the National Archives, I've contacted to Cheshire Records as Albert died in Winwick hospital but I need to visit one of their libraries to view records as I'm not a member of Findmypast (only Ancestry). We only know Albert was born in 1984 but not his actual dob.
My cousin is hoping a group in Sussex will do some research for Thomas Parker.
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JohnLFC,
Is there a chance that it could be Stoneham, instead of Shoreham? As your Uncle was little could he have been mistaken?
What was your Uncles and fathers Christian names?
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Hello Forguette, although we strongly suspect that is was Shoreham-on-Sea we've widened the search constantly taking in the broad area of Brighton and within Sussex. Often even in to London.
Several years have past and more and more people (mostly from USA albeit) have submitted a DNA, but even from that I've only really had 1 good match to a Thomas Parker but I can't link that Thomas to my Albert or even any Albert. So Albert may well be illegitimate and we've been unable to identify his mother.
Thanks for taking an interest.
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I'm reading conflicting posts by you though, which leaves me unsure as to whether he married in 1920 or 1921?
What AGE was he on marriage?
what was the actual DATE of marriage?
I note you have the cert.
Do you have his death cert?
Which Thomas Parker have you a DNA match to?
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Marriage was to Emily Nicholson in Hampstead in 1920.
Residence on marriage has not been given.
Albert Parker buried at Allerton Cemetery, 7 July 1949. Age 65. Late abode 10 Fernwood Rd.
Death registered Liverpool South, so where does Winwick Hospital fit in?
if we know the DOB of Albert
You now have a day/month of birth from the 1939 Register?
And a year, 1882, or 1883, if the age on death was more accurate.
if all else fails, there will be the 1921 census with Albert and his wife on it. This should show his place of birth which might make it possible to trace him.
Not so long to wait now!
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Yep, Albert's marriage cert states 1920 with father Thomas dead. Albert died in Winnick hosp 1949, buried in Allerton. His grave says age 65 meaning b1884 but in 1939 Albert states he was born on 20/10/1882. We've accepted that isn't unusual but is doesn't help us.
In this tree, there is a Thomas Parker b1846
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/164442734/family/familyview?cfpid=102135135583
If you follow it round via Hollands to the Green family I have a DNA connection to Keith Green.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-matches/compare/AD9FAE45-6911-4012-A6E8-D81AD7AB6C82/with/B41B611F-86B1-4EE5-8D91-AEC17B68BBDF
Not sure if the links work. It suggests 2nd-3rd cousin but he is actually very distant.
That provides hope but there is no evidence that Thomas ever fathered Albert.
Does that all make sense?
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UK and Ireland, Masters and Mates Certificates, 1850-1927 on ancestry
Has a Thomas Parker born 11 Sep 1846, Shoreham, Sussex.
Various documents from 1867 and 1870, with addresses in Shoreham, and North and South Shields.
Not sure that helps in any way!
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Anything helps jon :)
I've noticed the Masters cert - that indicates he was in the Navy? Alberts marriage cert suggests he was in the 20th Hussars. It's possible that on the 1891 (by 1891 Albert could have been anywhere) census Thomas was away so never living with Albert, but theres no trace Albert was ever born to Thomas or Albert was living with his mum.
Thanks again, any links or help will be thoroughly explored.
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Hi
It's for the merchant navy, he was a mate then, don't know what happened after that.
Trying a different tack, an Albert Parker, illegitimate son of Emma, was born 4 October 1882 in the City of London workhouse, Homerton. Close!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1B-ZSR7-P
It does seem at the moment as if the census release next year will be your best hope, with Albert being in there and giving his place of birth.
He's well hidden at the moment!
Jon
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I've bought that Albert's bc just in case a father was named but it was blank. I think that Emma was 25, b1858, so I've purchased 2 death certs of Emma Parkers who died in Brighton in the 1920's hoping for a clue or if Albert registered the death but they were not helpful.
The reason why I chose the 1920's is because my cousin was told my uncle was taken by Albert to see his dying mum in Shoreham when he was a small boy but we don't know any names or any other detail.
That concept has also made me look at some Mary Ann Parkers who died in the 1920's.
Yep, the 1921 census will give me a birth place - fingers crossed, and a bit more certainty about the birth date.
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UK and Ireland, Masters and Mates Certificates, 1850-1927 on ancestry
Has a Thomas Parker born 11 Sep 1846, Shoreham, Sussex.
Various documents from 1867 and 1870, with addresses in Shoreham, and North and South Shields.
Not sure that helps in any way!
Jon, what are the various addresses, can you link me to them please. And would you be confident the TP in N&S Shields is the same one as Shoreham.
Ta mate.
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Hi
He is certificate number 83722
Twelve images, going back in time from 1870?
Seem to start here
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2271/images/31936_1831101456_0216-00409
Frederick Street, South Shields
High Street, Shoreham
47 King Street, North Shields
All his vessels were out of Shoreham?
Going backwards,
Argosy
Blair Athol
Vindex
Pilot
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Also, UK, Apprentices Indentured in Merchant Navy, 1824-1910
February 1860
Thos Parker, age 15
Date of Indenture 6 Feb
Term for which Bound 5 (yrs) to 6.2.65
To whom Bound A Sinclair, Shoreham
Name of Vessel Pilot
Enrolled at Shoreham
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That's superb, thank you so much Jon.
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Hi all
Following continuous searches and DNA match updates I think I have a new theory about Albert Parker.
I think he was born Albert Sheaff in 1883 in New Shoreham. His parents were Thomas Sheaff (1840 and Mary Sladden (1850) both from Sibertswold Kent. A lot of my significant, traceable DNA matches are from this area and the wider ancestors of Sheaffs and Sladdens etc.
There remains a mystery why he changed his name to Parker and also about his life between 1904 and 1920 and I would be very grateful for any help or insight.
There is a document suggesting Albert Sheaff married a Lillian Higgins in Newcastle in 1904 and they had two children. I can't find the death or divorce of Lillian. (he may even have deserted the army to attend the wedding).
Also AS seems to have been placed in jail in 1914 for break-in and entering, this is a surprise to us as he was of good character. I'm starting to think he changed his name in 1915 before re-joining the army. When he came out of prison he was released to Ham Road, Shoreham.
The theory is that Albert Parker was born as Albert Sheaff.
His family moved to New Shoreham and set up a family. Albert was born in 1883 registered in Steyning as Albert Sheaff. (Evidence available)
Albert Parker said his father Thomas Parker was in the 20th Husars, there no evidence that a Thomas Parker was in 20th Hussars but we can find a Thomas Sheaff in 20th Hussars.
In 1891 census the Sheaff family with Alberts siblings were together in Shoreham.
In 1901 census Albert Sheaff was at an army barracks in Chichester (we have other docs that suggest he's been to South Africa with the army before this).
In 1911 census Albert Sheaff was in the military, possibly in India.
Thomas Sheaff died in 1906 and in 1909 Mary (Alberts mum) remarried to Charles Smart and became Mary Smart.
In the 1921 census Albert Parker was living in Liverpool with wife Emily Nicholson. It's a mystery why he states he was born in 1882 in Mhow, but that needs to be resolved. But here is an interesting point. Also in the 1921 census in Brighton, Mary Smart is still living with Charles Smart (her new husband) at 12 Ham Road. In 1921 there is an absent voter - Albert Parker.
Albert must have been registered as living with his mum immediately after the war but as Parker not as Sheaff. Surely that is acknowledgement from his family that he changed his name but had already moved away.
I can't find a death cert or record for Albert Sheaff (because he died as a Parker in 1949?).
I have no evidence of a name change.
There is no probate for Mary Smart (nee Sladden) and it was her youngest daughter that registered the death.
Any thoughts or help would be really appreciated.
John