RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cornwall => Topic started by: G_B_W on Tuesday 12 August 14 23:59 BST (UK)
-
Hello,
I have been searching for information about my Great Grandparents Thomas Williams and Mary Penprase who lived in Camborne. I have their physical death certificates. Mary died 11 May 1936 in the Women's Hospital in Redruth. Her address was 10 Centenary Row West Camborne. This is the same address listed on the 1911 Census where she is listed as a widow living with 7 children, one of whom, George, is my grandfather. Thomas Williams died 12 Dec 1898 at 182 Centenary Row. My grandfather's birth certificate lists Mary Williams as formerly, Penprase. The 1911 census lists her birthplace as Taunton Somerset. I found a Mary A. Pinpraze in the 1881 census, age 17, born in Taunton Somerset, listed as a Tailoress. The 1911 census shows 2 of Mary's daughters working as a dressmaker and tailor. Mary A. Pinpraze lived at 4 Tolcarne St. I see from the map of Camborne that Centenary Row and Tolcarne St are very close to each other. Could Mary A. Pinpraze be the same person as my Great grandmother Mary Williams? Is there any way to find out?
-
Hi and welcome to Rootschat
Do you have a copy of your grandparents marriage certificate which will show her fathers name and occupation
-
Welcome to rootschat G_B_W. :)
A few things come to mind:
You obviously have realised that you will probably need to be flexible with the surname and take variations in spelling into account.
Have you looked for births for Mary Pinprazes in the right area around 1861? This might help in working out how many of that name were born in the area.
Do you have Mary Pinpraze in the 1871 census? She may be with parents. Is she with parents in the 1881 census aged 17?
Have you looked for a marriage for Thomas Williams and Mary Penprase? The certificate should give her father's name and occupation so you will be able to cross check to find the right family in 1871 and also the correct birth (if there are more than one).
Added: I see Carole is thinking along the same lines ...
-
Here is the marriage on freebmd
Marriages March qtr 1885
Mary Penpraze Redruth 5c 335
Thomas Williams
-
I'm sure this is her birth reg
Mary Ann Panphrase December qtr 1864 Taunton Volume 5c Page 426
-
Good find Carole. I was getting frustrated with no results for the birth. Trying lots of different variations there don't seem to be any/many other Marys with a similar surname born in the right timeframe. So quite likely that GBW's assumption that Mary Pinphraze is his ggrandmother.
-
Have you tried searching for Mary in 1871? I'm not getting any results .... :-\
-
Thank you all for such quick replies. I do not have a copy of Thomas and Mary's marriage certificate. The 1881 Census Shows Mary Pinpraze, age 17, living with William Pinpraze, wife and family. Thomas was a tin miner (below ground) as his wife's death certificate indicates. Thank you for the lead on the marriage.
Mary Ann Panphrase? Wow, that is interesting! Is it possible to see those records on line?
-
Nothing is coming up on the 1871 but if you use a wildcard search on the marriages as follows:
p*np**
It comes up wih many variations - here's a few
Penpeaze, Penphase, Penprage, Penpraise
I would strongly advise you buy a copy of her birth cert to get her parentage and mothers maiden name
-
I have just looked up the 1881 and see parents are William and Elizabeth.
If Mary's marriage certificate says her father is William, then you are likely to have found the right family in 1881. If you back this up with Mary Panphrase's birth certificate which also names her parents as William and Elizabeth, then you can be sure you have the correct Mary and the correct family. :)
-
Thank you CaroleW,
How would I buy her birth certificate? This is a new adventure for me.
-
Hi
You can order online using the link below - you will need to register first. Copies cost £9.25 included postage
www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
If you are not comfortable ordering online - you can ring them and give them the info (ie) name as shown on registration - district = Taunton and then the quarter and volume/page number
Any problems - just send me a pm by clicking on the little green box under my name (left hand side of screen)
-
Looking at the places of birth of the children in the 1881 census, I suspect the family might be in Wales in 1871. But. I can't find them. :'(
-
Marriages for William Pen*ra*e with an Elizabeth on the same page:
Marriages Jun 1847
PENPRASE William Helston 9 163
Marriages Dec 1857
Penprase William Abergavenny 11a 141
Marriages Sep 1861
Penpraze William Redruth 5c 395
Helston is the closest distance wise to Wendron where Elizabeth says she was born, however if William and Elizabeth married in 1847 you would expect several children born before Mary A in 1864. This is where the 1871 census would come in handy.
Of course they may not have married in Elizabeth's parish in which case the 1861 marriage looks most likely.
The birth certificate of Mary Panphrase should solve the problem though as it will give Elizabeth's maiden name. :)
-
I might be on the wrong track here, but in the 1861 census I have found a William Pinpraze age 40, copper miner, with a wife Jane age 35. No children. This William is born Illogan and Jane is b St Agnes. RG 9/ Piece 1582/ Folio 30/ Page 26
(there is a possible matching William in 1851 age 30 unmarr with parents Edward and Maria)
I note that Illogan and Camborne are only a couple of miles apart.
Perhaps this explains why William seems relatively old to have such young children. :-\
In which case the 1861 marriage for William to Elizabeth Allen is more likely.
1861 census taken in April, Jane dies (?), William marries Elizabeth in Sept 1/4 1861?
It's possible. :-\
More investigation required.
-
Thank you for the info, CaroleW. I will order a certificate tomorrow. I noticed that there is a William Penpraze in the 1901 census, listed as a pauper, 80 years old, living in the Redruth Union Workhouse. Sad to think about such hard times. Thank you all for the help!
-
When you get the birth cert, post details here and we can then see if we can get any further back for you
-
Thank you all. I just ordered the birth certificate for Mary Ann Panphrase. It will be despatched Aug 19 and will take more time for international delivery. I will report the details when it arrives.
-
1871 census for Mary & family
2 Carno Street, Uchlawrcoed, Rumney, Bedwellty RG10/5329 folio 62 pg 47
William Penphase head mar 50 mason b. Cornwall
Elizabeth wife 45 b. Cornwall
William son 12 b. Monmouthshire
Grace dau 10 b. Monmouthshire
Mary A dau 7 b. Somersetshire
Richard H son 6 b. Somersetshire
John P son 2 b. Glamorgan
Possible birth reg for William jnr
William Caddy Penprase march qtr 1858 Abergavenny vol 11a pg 80
& Grace
Grace Penrose Penprase sept qtr 1861 Bedwellty vol 11a pg 74
which makes the 1857 marriage registered Abergavenny look likely.
-
Thank you, osprey,
That looks as though it may be the right family. May I ask how you searched for that? I haven't found any of that 1871 census information by searching for William Penphase.
-
Well done Osprey. I was tearing my hair out searching for that family last night. ::) I tried dozens of variations of the surname. Did you find it on FindMyPast?
-
I hadn't tried FindMyPast, it was the other one! Think it has been transcribed as Pemprase or similar but that's not what it says on the actual census. I searched for William, blank surname, born 1821 Cornwall, living in Monmouthshire.. They should have been in the area in 1861, but there's quite a lot missing around there.
;)
-
I hadn't tried FindMyPast, it was the other one! Think it has been transcribed as Pemprase or similar but that's not what it says on the actual census. I searched for William, blank surname, born 1821 Cornwall, living in Monmouthshire.. They should have been in the area in 1861, but there's quite a lot missing around there.
;)
Well found! I had no luck at all. I think maybe it was the Pem rather than Pen that threw me.
It just goes to show that it is well worth getting as many people on the case as possible. :)
-
just had another look for 1861 & came across this entry
10 Back Row, Aberystruth RG9/ 3997 folio 64 pg 44
William Penprase head mar 40 b. Camborne, Cornwall
Elis wife 34 b. Gwendron, Cornwall
William son 3 b. Monmouthshire
Richard H son 11 m b. Aberystruth
death reg
Richard Henry Pennrase mar qtr 1863 Bedwellty vol 11a pg 59
Church record of their marriage shows William's father as Henry, a miner and Elizabeth's as William Caddy, also a miner.
-
Thank you all for the research! I am astonished at your skills and persistence. I also ordered the marriage certificate for Thomas Williams and Mary. It will try my patience to wait for the copies for confirmation, but this feels like the right family. Thanks you, again.
-
I received Mary Panprase's birth certificate and the marriage certificate for Thomas Williams and Mary Penprase (notice the two spellings). I'm happy to report that the Mary noted in the 1871 census does, indeed, seem to be my great grandmother.
1871 census for Mary & family
2 Carno Street, Uchlawrcoed, Rumney, Bedwellty RG10/5329 folio 62 pg 47
William Penphase head mar 50 mason b. Cornwall
Elizabeth wife 45 b. Cornwall
William son 12 b. Monmouthshire
Grace dau 10 b. Monmouthshire
Mary A dau 7 b. Somersetshire
Richard H son 6 b. Somersetshire
John P son 2 b. Glamorgan
On the birth certificate her father, William, is listed as a journeyman mason and the mother, Elizabeth, is formerly Caddy. Mary Anne was born 7 Nov 1864 on King Street, Taunton.
The marriage certificate has some tantalizing clues about Thomas. Thomas and Mary were married in the Wesleyan Chapel 02 March 1885. Mary, 21 and a spinster, is listed as residing at Tolcarne St, Camborne; her father is William, a mason. Thomas, a Tin Miner, is listed as residing in Troon, Camborne. His father is listed as Edwin Williams, deceased, also a Tin Miner. Thomas is listed as age 33 and as a widower. His death certificate from 1898 lists the informant as his daughter Rose. Rose does not appear in the 1911 census with Mary Williams and the other children so I presume she was older and already married. Possibly she is a daughter from Thomas' earlier marriage. There is one inconsistency. The death certificate from 1898 lists Thomas' age as 50, indicating birth year of 1848. The marriage certificate from 1885 lists his age as 33, indicating a birth year of 1852.
Any suggestions for future research? Thank you for the help!
-
accoring to the 1901 census, Rose was the couple's eldest child. RG13/2243 folio 39 pg 20.
Do you have the family on the 1891 census to confirm place of birth for Thomas?
By the way, it's not unknown for someone to loose a few years at time of marriage if the person they're marrying is several years younger than them. Again, the census entry could help.
I've given you William & Elizabeth's marriage in a previous post and the names of their fathers.
You can access transcriptions of many parish records on the Cornwall opc database
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/person-search/
-
ok, found the entry,
Centenary Row West, Camborne RG12/1850 folio 91 pg 21
Thomas Williams head mar 40 b. Cornwall, Lostwithiel
Mary Ann wife 25 b. Sometshire
Rose dau 5 b. Camborne
Arthur son 3 b. Camborne
George son 1 b. Camborne
so 1851
North Street, Lostwithiel HO107/1904 folio 46 pg 6
Edwin Williams head mar 22 miner b. Crowan
Anne wife 27 b. Cardinham
Thomas son 2 b. Lostwithiel
Mary dau 7 mo b. Lostwithiel
Susan Cole lodger widow 67 receiving relief b. Lostwithiel
-
Oh, that is terrific! Thank you. This is the right family. George, Son, 1, is my grandfather. Family lore suggested Thomas was born in Wales. I have been looking though census lists from Wales with no success. It is great to confirm the Cornwall birth, and for father Edwin, as well. Is the first entry you found from a census? It seems to confirm that Thomas did shave a few years off his age for the marriage certificate.
-
sorry that wasn't clear. It's the 1891 census entry that I was asking if you had, which it seems you didn't. ;)
The 1851 from Lostwithiel shows a lodger, I think she's actually Ann's mother, surname appears as Cole, Cowl, Coul.
-
Thank you Osprey for the suggestion that Susan was Anne's mother. I think that is correct. I found a baptism for Ann Coul listing the mother as Susan and the father as Thomas, 1 Dec 1822, Cardinham, Cornwall, and a marriage date from Jan-Feb-Mar 1848, Bodmin, for Marriage to Edwin Williams. A Susan was listed as present, also. It is satisfying to fill in some of the blanks. I hope I can discover a little more.
-
you can look at scans of some of the Cornwall parish registers via the FamilySearch site
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1769414
bottom of page, browse through images
Ann's father appears to have the middle name Billing or Belling
;)
-
I searched the link you provided for Thomas Coul, Cowl, Cole but didn't find that reference with the middle name. That would be very interesting. I believe Thomas Williams, my great grandfather's middle name is Billing, as is my grandfather's, father's and brother's.
-
sorry, the link was so that you could look at the scanned records. It's easier to search on the opc database, then using the date, check the original
his marriage
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=marriages&id=1151162
& baptism of a sibling of Ann
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=2636467
his burial
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=burials&id=1232831
-
Oh those links are great. I will practice a little bit and see if I can find my way around better through the databases. You are very kind to take the time to find this information. I deeply appreciate the help. I am planning to visit Cornwall from California next year and see some of these locations in person. There is a real story of hardship and fortitude in the lives of these tin miners that is suggested by the census data.
-
not all records have been transcribed as yet for the opc database, baptism for Thomas in Bodmin in 1771 son of Richard & Catherine is here
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22654-46686-32?cc=1769414&wc=M6NX-429:138123201,138171401,138198901
This marriage would seem to explain the Billing middle name
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=marriages&id=922734
-
It is curious that the connection to the Billing name persists over 7 generations. I notice from the link to the marriage that the bride made her mark rather than signed the certificate. Presumably the family must have been quite humble, yet the connection to the name was important enough to last until the present day.
-
without knowing how many older children the Billings had & possibly paid to educate, I think it's impossible to judge. Girls were educated at home by their mothers usually.
It may have been a respected family in the area. There was a Thomas Billinge in the parish at the time of the Protestation Oath in 1641-2
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12445-6295-3?cc=1769414&wc=M6NX-H3D:138123201,138171401,138232101