RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Leicestershire => Topic started by: Rab65 on Sunday 10 August 14 10:00 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I wonder if anyone with access to the Leicestershire records would undertake a marriage search for me please?
I am looking for a marriage between John Merchant and Ellen Brewin. They were living at East Street, Leicester in 1860-1862 but I do not have any further information for them both.
I suspect that they were both born about 1835-1845 but have not been able to prove that.
The marriage search could be anywhere between 1840-1865? I really am not able to offer any more details for this couple, a long shot I know but I would be grateful if someone would conduct a search for me.
Thank you.
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Could this be it?
Marriage of an Ellen Brewin Melton Mowbray RD Leics Q2 1858 Vol7a Pg 355
However none of the sites seems to have details of the spouse of this marriage.
Pheno
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Can't see a John Merchant in that quarter?
Groom is likely to be Charles Inman, who has a dodgy page number!
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Hi,
I don`t know if that is the correct record or not but thank you very much for trying.
On the ancestry website there are a few Ellen/Helen Brewin marriages but I see no John Merchant on any of them. I would very much like to order a marriage certificate for this couple, if they did marry, in order to find out who their respective Fathers were and try and take my search back from there.
They had a daughter Betsy born in 1862 and this is how I, finally, found out her Mother`s maiden name and the address of East Street. I have come up with nothing new on the familysearch.org website.
I wondered if there was anyone available that had access to the parish registers in Leicester at all to see if they married there?
But, even having said that I cannot find this couple in any of the censuses so perhaps they might come from another area in the Midlands, hmm need to extend my search further.
Once again thank you.
Just to add in order to save people time I have searched through the Leicester parish and marriage databases here at rootschat.
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Are you saying that there is a birth, in 1862, of Betsy Merchant?
Found it!
September qtr 1862
Leicester district
Merchant, Betsy
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Hi KGarrard,
Yes thats the one--Betsy Merchant. I ordered and received the birth certificate, that is where I learnt the Mother`s maiden name and address.
I can see from the ancestry search results that there were quite a few Brewin`s living in Leicester in the 1860s but how do I associate and connect one of those families with Ellen Brewin?
She may well have originated from a different place altogether.
I have now learnt that the name was an English name---I thought it was foreign at first and Brewin has quite a few name spelling variations e.g Bruin; Bruen; Bruyn; Brune and Brewern etc.. so I really do need to go back and widen my search in the hope of yeilding new results.
Thank you for your time.
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Got a niggle, have found a Brewin family in Saxby, Melton Mowbray, Ellen c 1840 with a sister Betsy c 1849
HO107/2091/705 2
am not finding anything else to help, but had to note it; what was John's occupation on the birth cert?
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looks like Ellen from Saxby is with Charles Inman 1861 Oxford Street, no children
RG 9/2283/15/24
She is buried at Welford Road 26 Apr 1863, was at Oxford Street
There is an Inman child born Oct 1862 died 5wks old, Oxford Street
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Rab65, I cant find a marriage but the St Margarets parish records have
John Merchant Christened 30th May 1860 Parents John & Ellen, Living, Royal East street Occupation,Cuttler.
Elizabeth Merchant Christened 10th August 1862 Parents John & Ellen Living Royal East Street.
And a later birth of a Grace Lily Brewin 1st april 1908 mother Mahala Ellen Brewin of Barkby,no father named.
Jenn
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Hi,
Wow. Thank you all for the information.
On Betsy`s birth certficate it states that John Merchant was a Master Cutler!! and living at 45 Royal East Street!! Got to be the same people, surely?
So, Betsy could also have been known as Elizabeth-of course, and she now has a Brother John-excellent.
The John & Ellen Merchant that you have found must be one and the same people that I am researching and now St. Margarets Parish that might help, I have the christening records-thank you very much.
I don`t have time now but I will go back and search for John jnrs birth GRO and see if I can find them all in the censuses tonight.
Grace Lilly Brewin-I shall file the details away but I don`t think she is connected directly to this couple at the moment.
Charles Inman does not appear to fit the time frame for John & Betsy`s births but thank you for taking the time to search for me.
Last night I tried to find Ellen Brewin in the 1851 + 1861 censuses for the Midlands but could find nothing to `fit` this lady. I have `guessed` her age as being born about 1840 so perhaps I need to search for an earlier age allowing for 20 years or so for a person to be of childbearing years-would you agree?
Cutlers
I have checked through the Sheffield Cutlers archived lists and found no John Merchant-if he was a Master Cutler would he have had to be registered? Was it illegal to set up as a registered Master Cutler if he wasn`t so, should that turn out to be the case? Was there a Company in Leicester that required these skills? Does anyone know of other Counties that trained Cutlers aside from Sheffield, I am thinking along the lines of apprenticeship records?
I will also check out the occupations listings here at Rootschat shortly.
That is all I have time for this morning but shall look forward to catching up with you all again.
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Found a John from Sheffield boarding last night, can't remember off hand but will have a look tonight unless you beat me to it!
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I remember why I didn't mention a John in Leicester, he is c 1850. What I am not sure of is, who is this chap?
Welford Road CA 729
MARCHANT JOHN 1865 DEC 10
Age 39 LEICESTER LUNATIC ASYLUM SAINT MARY
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Hi all..... :)
I haven't time at the moment to have a better look, but did seem to remember someone else researching for information which relates to this couple on Rootschat.
These are a couple of links from a while back.....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=503981.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=505704.0
The marriage that is referred to for Elizabeth Merchant can be found using this Batch Number = M049843 , here = http://dustydocs.com/linkSpecial/-1/134783/england-marriages-1538-1973.html
Shame there is not much information given other than their fathers names.
Might help where to look next, and maybe the original poster might have got a little further ::)
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Hello Dizziefish and Willsy,
Thank you both for your results. I was unable to search last night but have been able to do so today--on and off.
I have gone through all of the 1851 censuses at ancestry for; John Merchant/Marchant, born 1830 + or - 10 years in England but came up with nothing suitable-specifically seeking any John`s that may have been a Cutler or an apprentice.
Tomorrow I will follow through with the 1841 census and London apprenticeship record searches. Along with signing up on the Sheffield records on-line website to recheck their records for John.
I do hope that he has been truthful about his occupation as a Master Cutler. There are a lot of John Merchant/Marchant`s born and around 1820-1870 in England so I am hoping to narrow my searches for John through his profession.
Cutlers--I have now learnt that there is also The Worshipful Company of Cutlers in the City of London that accommodated apprentices so I shall email or write to them to see if they had any John Merchant`s for any time period.
Were there any other Companies of Cutlers or organisations in England during the 18th century or any Companies around in Leicester in the 1860s? I suppose I should look up Trade directories at some point.
Are you able to tell me if there are more spelling variations for the surname Merchant please, would Marchington be a variation of the same name?
Willsy--can you give me any more details about the John Marchant, 1865, that you found in the Leics; Asylum as they may later prove to be useful?
Dizziefish--Thank you for the links. I have yet to check out the topics with 2 of those here at Rootschat, not enough time today, but did search fully through the England marriages 1538-1973, with no success, but pleased to have done so.
I searched for John Merchant/Marchant and found a record for a Francis Marchant age 50 to an Ellen Brewer age 38 which gave me hope--but her Father was a John Patching 1856 Brighton.
This find got me thinking that the surname Brewin might also be known as Brewer? so I then conducted a search for her with both surnames to no avail.
Next I searched on ancestry for them both with many name spelling variations 1837-1866-no luck there but I have loads more marriage records to search at ancestry.
I am not on-line this evening but shall be back tomorrow. Thank you for all of your time and efforts with my searches.
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Going back to the link that Dizzifish posted for the marriage
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NVWX-3Q9
you could order that one from the photoduplication service, reading through, don't think they had the marriage cert then
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Photoduplication_Services
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I've been looking at the threads and from the info, an Elizabeth Marchant marries Edwin Arnold 1899, Kent, double checking she is as Elizabeth Marchant Barnes
St Margaret's
Entry No.359, FEB 9, 1852, after Banns
THOMAS BARNES, 19, bach. LABORER, of BURLEIGH'S LANE, s. of JOSEPH BARNES, LABORER
ELLEN GLOVER BREWIN, 17, sp. of BURLEIGH'S LANE, d. of BENJAMIN BREWIN, BRAZIER
Wits: BENJAMIN BREWIN, MARIA WILLS
I really don't know if this is something, Thomas seems to be with a Mary A. as Burleys Lane 1862 no children.
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Hi Willsy....Hi Rab65..
I have only just spotted your post.... a really good find! and the "Glover" fits really well with what I had found.
I had a look last night to see if I could spot anything and did come up with some finds and have been trying to put them into some sort of order so they might make some sense.
It would seem that Ellen Brewin was born in Hull abt 1835..... but how her mother became Ellen/Eleanor Glover/Brewin became Gregory or Dixon, I don't know?.... yet ::)
I looked at the 1861 census for Royal East Sreet....
1861 = Piece 2291/ Folio 14 /Page 21 - Number 45, Royal East St is unoccupied
There is a Benjamin Brewing at number 37 Royal East St he is with a visitor called Susannah Mattock?
It is Benjamin which was the link to making sense of the Brewin family......
He seems to have married Susannah by 1871, but can't see a marriage for them either ? He is also on later census 1881 in Manthorpe cum Little Gonerby.
1871 = Piece 3279 /Folio 76 / Page 10 - Royal East St.
Benjamin gives his birthplace as Barton on Humber....
http://dustydocs.com/link/22/30341/97249/baptisms-1813-1844-lincs-to-the-past.html = image 66 of 108)
Barton on Humber Baptisms
19th Nov 1831 - Benjamin BRUIN - parents Benjamin & Ellen - occupation Travelling Brazier.
There is a Benjamin here - 1841 = HO107 /Piece 622 /Book 12 /Folio 4 /Page 1 - Sleaford
As it seems the Brewin family travelled with work they could have been anywhere......
1841 - Piece 651 / Book 2 / Folio 11 /Page 16 - St Botolph, Lincoln, Lincolnshire
The household has a Joseph & Ellen Dixon.... but also;
Elizabeth Brewin born abt 1826
Sarah Brewin born abt 1829
Ellen Brewin born abt 1835
There are two marriages which took place at St Botolph, Lincoln
29th Aug 1842 St Botolph, Lincoln - Elizabeth Glover Brewen to Alfred Boswell
Brides father: Benjamin Brewen
Grooms father: Zachariah Boswell
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25th May 1846 St Botolph, Lincoln - Sarah Glover Brewen to William West
Brides father: Benjamin Brewen
Grooms father: Thomas West
~ ~ ~
Parents marriage =
Name: Benjamin Brewin
Spouse's Name: Elenor Glover
Event Date: 16 Sep 1822
Event Place: Sculcoates, York, England
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I03300-0 ,
~ ~ ~ ~
Sarah is here in 1851.... which says she was born abt 1829 in Kirton in Lindsey, Linc.
1851 = HO107/Piece 2105/ Folio 579/ Page46 - 22, West Gate Castle Dyke, Lincoln.
Here is her Baptism record..... http://dustydocs.com/link/22/30643/100086/baptisms-1813-1844-lincs-to-the-past.html - image 52 of 107
Baptism - 12th Nov 1828 - Kirton in Lindsey, Lincs.
Sarah dau of Benjamin & Eleanor Bruen - abode: "States himself as belonging to the parish of All Saints, Leicester".
occupation = Travelling Umbrella Maker.
~ ~ ~ ~
1841 Piece 651 / Book 2 / Folio 11 /Page 16 - St Botolph, Lincoln, Lincolnshire
The household has a Joseph & Ellen Dixon.... but also;
Elizabeth Brewin born abt 1826
Sarah Brewin born abt 1829
Ellen Brewin born abt 1835
1851 - Piece 2089/ Folio 296/ Page13 - Burleys Lane, in a yard, Leicester.
Eleanor Gregory, Head Widow, aged 50 - born Isle Ely, Cambridge.
Eleanor D'o, Daughter, un, aged 17 - born Hull, Yorks.
Joseph Dixon,Lodger,Widower, aged 56 - born Essex
Benjamin Brewin, Lodger, Mar, aged 19 - born Barton, Lincoln.
1861 - Piece 2291 /Folio 14 /Page 21 - 37, Royal East Street, Leicester.
Benjamin Brewing, head, un? aged 29 , Cutter or Cutler? - born Barton on Humber, Lincs.
Susannah Mattock?, visitor, un, aged 30 - born Leicester.
&
1861 next door at 39, Royal East Street = Joseph Dixon born Essex & Ellen Gregory born Isle Ely, Cambridge,
both aged 67 - Ellen described as cousin.
1871 - Piece 3279 /Folio 76 /Page 9 - 43, Royal East Street, St Margaret, Leicester.
Jo's Dixon, Head, Mar, aged 77, Grinder, born Whalley Camp?, Essex
Ellen Dixon, wife, mar, aged 77, born Ely.
~ ~ ~ ~
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What a tangled web..... and it looks likely John Merchant may never have married Ellen ?
A shortened transcript to get the idea of events........
Leicester Chronicle - 4th March 1865
Leicester Spring Assizes
Thomas BARNES, was charged with marrying on November 7th 1864, Emma Taylor, during the life of his wife, ELLEN GLOVER BARNES. - Mr Palmer conducted the prosecution; and Mr Orridge the defence.
Benjamin BREWIN stated that he knew the prisoner, who married his sister, Ellen Glover Brewin, about thirteen years ago at St Margaret's church. He was present at the marriage and gave her away. They lived together some years and had one child. They then left one another, and had been parted some time.
Since she had been away from him, she had had two children. He heard she went into the Union, and that Barnes paid thirty shillings to be divorced.
Witnesses had seen the prisoner and his wife together in the street last July.....
another witness proved having seen them drinking together at the Red White & Blue beerhouse.....
...Clerk of St John's district church, produced a certificate of the marriage of that place of prisoner, described as a bachelor of full age to Emma Taylor, of Chatham Street, on November 7, 1864. - HIs lordship inquired if his second wife was forthcoming. Mr Palmer replied that she was not under his control, and that he could not carry the case any further, - His lordship said that these cases were of very different characters according to the circumstances.
In a case where the woman knew the whole state of things, and went through with the ceremony of marriage merely to satisfy her conscience, the offence was comparatively small; but where a woman was betrayed, believing she was contracting a valid marriage, the offence was most atrocious......
....... The jury found the prisoner guilty, but strongly recommended him to mercy. - Two months hard labourer.
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Wow, it's become such a mystery I kept looking, was about to go to the papers tonight. Had tried to decipher Ellen Murphy from the links from the other posts, better try again with the fab stuff you found.
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Carrying on your fine work
Welford Road Burials
T 564 C
DIXON JOSEPH 1873 AUG 12 62 ROYAL EAST STREET SAINT MARGARET 30623
BREWIN --- 1873 AUG 12 STBN BLACK FRIARS FRIARS 30624 CHILD OF MARY
BREWIN ELLEN 1873 OCT 13 62 LOWER ROYAL EAST STREET SAINT MARGARET 31031
2 deaths the same day
From the paper, having a guess
St Margaret baptisms
BARNES MARIA THOMAS & ELLEN 1853 13-Nov
??? looking at first names
BARNES BETSY THOMAS & ELLEN 1865 05-Mar
BARNES JOHN THOMAS & ELLEN 1865 05-Mar
but this is a day after the trial
Welford Road Burial
M 708 C
BARNES MARIA 1854 MAY 10 6MTHS BURLEYS LANE SAINT MARGARET
Lincoln bit
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: James Bruin
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 1826
Christening Place: HORNECASTLE, LINCOLN, ENGLAND
Father's Name: Benjamin Bruin
Mother's Name: Eleanor
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NFQN-2YF
St Margaret's Leicester baptism
BRUIN JAMES JAMES GLOVER & FANNY 1856 30-Jan
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Bit in the paper
Stamford Mercury 06 November 1829
Benjamin Bruin, aged 39, a travelling tinker, for stealing two new half-boots, a last, and a quantity of leather from the workshop of Mr, Joseph Burnett, shoemaker, of Kelstern, to be imprisoned to hard labour for one year at Spilsby.
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sorry not any nearer John and Ellen but burial at Gilroes for Benjamin
Ll 72
BREWIN Benjamin 78 46 Royal East Street Leicester 27-Jun 1910
1901
RG13; Piece: 2987; Folio: 145; Page: 24
with Susan Mattock
another child for James and Fanny
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JWCN-SYN
THEN I found an Ellen Barnes wid from Hull in Leicester
RG13; Piece: 2987; Folio: 160; Page: 16
with Florence Kilbride c1871 Huddersfield, married, daughter and grandaughter Ellen Kilbride and while I thought this is a bit mad, the unmentionable census is interesting (gdau)
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Hi Willsy....hi Rab65
You have been busy ! there are some intriguing finds you have come up with.
It is strange that Ellen seems to have had Betsy & John re - christened as Barnes, maybe, because in law she was still Mrs Barnes? ..... and the reason why Betsy/Elizabeth married Edwin Arnold as Elizabeth Merchant Barnes in 1899 ?
Poor Rab65 must wonder what has hit them re this thread...... :-\
There are quite a few people that have been struggling with this family.
Being as I have found a few more bits which might help, I might as well add them.
Willsy..... just wondered have you found a burial for Ellen Barnes? there is a death in Leicester Q4 1908, born abt 1833.
1901 - Piece2987/ Folio 160/ Page 16 - 6, Lower Green St, Leicester
which has.... Ellen Barnes born Hull, her daughter Florence Kilbride born Huddersfield & GDau Ellen Kilbride born Nottingham.
1891 has Florence Kilbride here = RG12/Piece 3619 /Folio 5/Page 6 - Bowling, Yorkshire.
1881 = RG11/Piece 4105/ Folio 82 / Page 10 - 6,Church Stile Model Lodging House, Castleton, Lancashire.
Martin MURPHY, husband, Mar, age 51, Seaman, born America.
Ellen d'o , Wife, age 50 - born Hull
Louisa d'o, dau, aged 15 - born Leicester.
Florence C ditto, Dau, age 8 - born Huddersfield.
Births Jun 1865
Barnes Louisa Dixon - Leicester 7a 203
Births Dec 1872
Murphy Florence Columbius - Huddersfield 9a 363
Births Mar 1893
Kilbride Elizabeth Ellen - Nottingham 7b 288
I had a guess that Elizabeth Ellen Kilbride had married in Derby in 1914 and someone on Ancestry has them on their tree with birth certificate..... born Nottingham Dec 1892, father : Joseph Patrick Kilbride & mother: Florence Kilbride, formerly Murphy. Interestingly, when the birth was registered in Feb 1893 Florence was living in Liverpool.
So, we have Ellen on census in 1901 & 1881, where is she in between years?
It does make you wonder if the burial for John Marchant in 1865 is the one who we were hoping to find on census with Ellen?
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Hello,
Wow-so much to try and take in.
I am very confused with Barnes and Murphys, Dixon and Glovers. I need to go through all this thread again. Just not getting anywhere with John Merchant. I need to recheck my notes. My head is spinning with all this. Well done and thank you.
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Good evening everyone,
I was told to check out this thread and am so pleased to have done so.
Rab65 it looks like your Betsy was my Elizabeth Merchant----I shall send you my email via pm. What brought about your search for Betsy Merchant in the beginning?
It is a complex and wide story in regards to Elizabeth`s journey in life and confusing to some initially but I am happy to help and even more eager to learn more about all of your findings in this thread.
I was always under the misguided belief that Betsy`s Mother Ellen`s maiden name was Murphy-as she was sometimes known --according to the 1906 Dr Barnado report--as a result of one of her Granddaughters being placed into care. (Betsy`s Daughters)
But she was a BREWIN? Rab can you give me more details about the birth please?
Well if she was a Brewin--and you must be right as the kids baptisms are the same--and the Father`s details, job and address all match its no wonder that many of us could not find more records for Ellen and John. After the births of her 2 children Elizabeth & John there was no more details to be found for her or John Merchant. I have been looking at this couple through a very narrow looking-glass.
Brilliant work from the volunteers here--great stuff, many of your details look fruitful in regards to Barnes & Murphy, Brewin I need to become familiar with but I have to shoot off to work right now but will definitely be back tomorrow.
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Brilliant that you have found this as I was using your thread whilst looking, just on the case again!
Thank goodness Ellen married at St Margaret's, otherwise there wouldn't have been any details.
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I think John Marchant who died could be the man in question, can't find anything for an Ellen Barnes 1908
BINGO
1871 RG10/2806/23/38
New Street, Wellington, Shropshire, England
John Dickin Head 40 Montgomeryshire, Wales
Jane Dickin Wife 36 Montgomeryshire, Wales
Maria Dickin Dau 14 Warwickshire, England
Mary Ann Dickin Dau 10 Shropshire, England
John Bloss Lodger 44 Suffolk, England
Joseph Lovell Lodger 34 Worcestershire, England
David McNeil Lodger 33 Scotland
Luisa McNeil Lodger 24 Worcestershire, England
Martin Murphy Lodger 42 United States OCC HAWKER
Ellen Murphy Lodger 39 1832 Isle of Man, Isle of Man
John Murphy Lodger 12 Northamptonshire, England
Elizabeth Murphy Lodger 10 Leicestershire, England
Luisa Murphy Lodger 4 Leicestershire, England
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1891 ages wrong, what do you think?
RG12/23/24/44
St Katherines Road, Kensington, London, England
M Murphy Head Married 51 Mariner America
Ellen Murphy Wife Married 44 Yorkshire
Frederick Murphy Son Male 12 1879 London
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Hi Willsy... :D
Crikey.... you have been amazing! - will have a look at the 1891 tomorrow.
So pleased Sal1525 has found the thread it might help her get a bit further.
Here is another bit to the puzzle....
Births Jun 1860
MERCHANT John - Northampton 3b 55
1861 - Piece 2589 /Folio 50 /Page 25 = 64, George Street, Altrincham, Cheshire (Lodging House)
John Merchant Lodger Married 34 - Optician - born London, Middlesex.
Ellen Merchant, Lodger, Married, aged 29 - Opticians Wife, born Yorkshire.
John Merchant Lodger - 0 1861 - Opticians Son, born Northampton.
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I'll stop 1861 then, I couldn't leave it alone!
I think you cracked it with Benjamin!
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I remember why I didn't mention a John in Leicester, he is c 1850. What I am not sure of is, who is this chap?
Welford Road CA 729
MARCHANT JOHN 1865 DEC 10
Age 39 LEICESTER LUNATIC ASYLUM SAINT MARY
Hi everyone,
This is all very exciting, couldn`t wait to start catching up with your thread. John Merchant and his Wife Ellen have been elusive for so long now I had almost given up finding out what happened to them both until I found this post. I almost don`t know where to start but I shall begin with John Merchant/Marchant.
Following on from Willsy`s find about a John Marchant in the Asylum ----where did you find that piece of info` Willsy, please? I have found a newspaper article about an annual report about the Leicester Gaol which may be connected to the one that you have found;
The Chronicle & Mercury United, Sat 22 Oct 1864. Leicester Michaelmas Sessions;
"J. Marchant removed to the Leicester Lunatic Asylum 14 Sep 1864 for reasons of insanity. Insane upon admission".
I then found this John`s death GRO thanks to the volunteers here and ordered the death cert;
John Marchant OND 1865 Leicester. Vol-7A Pge-153
Hopefully it is the right one and if not we may learn of what happened to this John. So this John was in prison in 1864-I wonder what for? I will try to find the Criminal record.
Ellen & John`s kids Betsy & John were born 1860 & 1862 so he has gone to prison between 1862-1864 which may well apply to my John because he disappeared from 1862. If it is him then it would make sense as to where he went and the further struggles that Ellen appears to have suffered.
Betsy`s bigamous marriage; Elizabeth Merchant-Barnes to Edwin Arnold. 17 May 1899 Chatham Registry Office. She stated that her Father was John Merchant-Barnes an Upholsterer.
I do not believe that he was at this wedding nor aware that changes had been made to his surname. She changed that name quite deliberately because she knew she was committing bigamy.
This year I came to the conclusion that firstly, the name Merchant-Barnes was bogus -and secondly that this marriage was a bigamous one as she was still married to Robert Welsh.
Dr Barnado`s 1906 report stated that they thought Robert was living in Maidstone, Kent--Betsy had said on the 7 Feb 1890, when placing their 2 Sons Robert & John into Care that Robert had died in the Leic Infirmary--Mike on the Leic boards was able to prove that this was untrue because there was no record of a Robert Welsh dying up to 1890 there.
Furthermore and more importantly when Robert & Betsy`s Daughter Ellen married, 3 times, 1897 & 1904 she stated that her Father was alive but when she married 1923 she then stated that her Father Robert Welsh was deceased.
It is possible that Ellen made up the details about her Father but 3 times in a row, doubtful?
Elizabeth Merchant had to create stories about her circumstances in order to keep placing her children into Care---she lied. She married as a bigamist changing the surname to avoid detection.
She was born and christened Betsy/Elizabeth Merchant in 1862 and now you have shown that she and her Brother John were also re-christened with the name of Barnes one day after the Trial in regards to Thomas Barnes-1865.
Could this have been done because John was in prison and had become insane and she felt that she had no future with him? The evidence that Thomas gave touched upon Ellen`s affair with John and those two having had kids together--maybe had them baptised again for a sense of public decency with such a public Trial about her marriage? Surely, not to try and get back together with Thomas.
Through you fabulous volunteers here you have now demonstrated where the name Barnes comes from-well done. I am off to look for John in the Criminal records and newspapers.
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Hi,
I have just found a newspaper article which may also apply to the John Marchant in Leicester asylum?
Nottinghamshire Guardian. Fri 21 Oct 1864. Crown Court Leicester;
"John Marchant, 38y, a Cabinet Maker was charged with stealing 3 each knives, forks & teaspoons; 1 pair of sugar nippers; 1 padlock & key and 1 bell-metal kettle, value 8 s. The property of Samuel Musson at Claybrook Magna on the 18 Aug 1864. He was proved to be insane and his recognizances was discharged."
Looks like it is the same John-what do you think? Cabinet maker would fit with one of my John`s occupations as an Upholsterer but this case seems to have been dismissed-so picked up for something else?
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I wondered about that one too!
There is a cemetery in Leicester called Welford Road, apologies if you know the area
http://www.fowrcl.org.uk/
but as I have 'bits' to hand, was able to find a burial there for John.
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Hi Willsy.
Thank you for the link and the heads up with John Marchant, he is looking like a good possibility but we will know for sure once the death cert; arrives and at the very least I will be able to eliminate him from further searches.
Poor Ellen having married, had and lost one child, separated, tried to obtain financial maintenance and been refused, gave birth to 2 more kids and her new partner had disappeared or gone to prison, possibly gone insane and died in 1865--then you find out your Husband has gone and married someone else and the subsequent Court case for bigamy that followed, in many newspapers-`for all the World to read about` she must have been at the end of her tether and angry.
But, then she goes and re-christens the kids with the Husbands name? Maybe to try and save her reputation & the kids in the community? Great work for finding the newspaper articles.
I have been on the Ancestry website today and searched for her baptism record in all of the parish records except London, allowing many different name spellings and have nothing to report back there. I am sure some of you have been searching for the same parish records but I had to sate my own curiosity. I wonder if the name Glover was added at a later date perhaps? Maybe not as other siblings have Glover included in their names.
This Ellen Glover Brewin and Thomas Barnes is too much of a coincidence to not be correct and the connection with Royal East Street and the other Brewins has got to be from the same family surely, Perhaps when Ellen had a relationship with John Merchant they lodged with the other Brewin family members? I searched through the entire 1861 census that you found for Benjamin & Susanna Brewin/Matlock and found no Ellen or John Merchant anywhere where did they go? Maybe they did not live together.
With all of the volunteers findings I can now conclude, finally that Ellen did not marry John Merchant-thank you for that.
Ok, I am now going to reread this thread and catch up with her relationships that you have all found--amazing stuff.
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Here's the other bigamous marriage for Thomas, just adds a bit for you around the newspaper report
1864 07-Nov St John the Divine
BARNES Thomas
TAYLOR Emma
and I think Dizzifish is spot on
1861 - Piece 2589 /Folio 50 /Page 25 = 64, George Street, Altrincham, Cheshire (Lodging House)
John Merchant Lodger Married 34 - Optician - born London, Middlesex.
Ellen Merchant, Lodger, Married, aged 29 - Opticians Wife, born Yorkshire.
John Merchant Lodger - 0 1861 - Opticians Son, born Northampton.
but it doesn't make 1851 any easier!
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Sorry overlooked that Ellen Barnes burial
Welford Road in the grave
O 1184 F
BARNES ELLEN 1908 OCT 12 75 9 SUSSEX STREET LEICESTER 51383
BARNES MARTHA CLARKE 1915 NOV 17 71 9 SUSSEX STREET LEICESTER 55661
BARNES JOHN 1924 JUN 25 86 NORTH EVINGTON LEICESTER 61000 [INFIRMARY?]
BARNES HARRY 1927 JAN 6 52 N.E.I. / 7 SUSSEX STREET LEICESTER 62109 [NORTH EVINGTON INFIRMARY]
probate mentions Agnes Barnes sp and Elizabeth Jane Bramley wid
sorry to add while you are digesting
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Hi Willsy,
You think that is Ellen & John in the 1861 census with Son John? Ellen`s age and POB fit. I have no idea where John snr was born-I will look up John Jr's birth-I did not find anything substantial for Leic-maybe he was born elsewhere. Optician in 1861? What did that entail in the 1860s? 1860 & 1862 John was a Master Cutler, possibly a Cabinet maker in 1864---why would you go from being an Optician to a Cutler-unless- he made tools, instruments for Opticians?
Not sure about this but will chase it up some time.
Thanks for the marriage detail, much appreciated. I have just read through this thread again, trying to get the handle on Ellen`s timeline and relationships with the men and her kids, going on the findings here--and not completely sure yet of who all of these kids belong to, no offence meant to anyone that has contributed to the thread-just trying to get to grips with everything, here goes;
1835 Ellen Glover Brewin born Hull, Yorkshire. Parents; Benjamin Brewin & Ellen/Eleanor Glover.
1841c-St. Botolph, Lincoln. Joseph & Ellen Dixon & Elizabeth, Sarah & Ellen Brewin.
1851c-Burley`s Lane, Leic. Eleanor Gregory; Joseph Dixon & Ellen & Benjamin Brewin.
1852-Burley Lane, Leic; marries John Barnes.
1853-Dtr Maria Barnes born, Chr/ & died Leicester.
1854-1859 Leicester-- separated from Thomas at some point and met John Merchant.
1860-Royal East Street, Leic; Son John Merchant born and Chr/ (christened)
1861c-Cheshire with both John Merchant`s.
1862-Royal East Street, Leic;-Dtr Betsy Merchant born & chr/.
1864-Lower Leicester (newspaper report)-Thomas marries Emma and John goes to prison.
1865-Leicester-Court case with Thomas and John Merchant dies. Kids rechristened Barnes and Louisa Dixon Barnes born. About 1864-65 she may have been in residence in some Union in Leic; (newspaper)
1865-1870 had a relationship with a Joseph Kilbride?
1871c-Shropshire with Martin Murphy & kids.
1872-Huddersfield-Dtr Florence born. Kilbride or Murphy?
1881c-Castleton, Lancs; with Martin Murphy and Dtrs.
1891c-with Martin Murphy & kids.
1893-Nottingham--Elizabeth Ellen Kilbride born.
1901-Green Street, Leic; Ellen Barnes with dtr.
Did I miss anything? I have yet to view all of the censuses that you have found but was John & Betsy Merchant in them after 1862? Great work from all of you and far, far more than I knew before I joined this board. I will look at the men in her life and try to chase up more records for Ellen and try and add to all that you have found tomorrow. Thank you very much.
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Willsy,
Please don`t be sorry you and the other volunteers have really opened up this stale search for me, so exciting to begin to piece everything together.
The burial I will file away but you could be right as she was listed as Ellen Barnes in the 1901 census. Need to have a look for her in the 1911 census tomorrow see if we can pinpoint her death records.
off to put my feet up for the rest of the evening, back tomorrow.
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I'm not sure about that death,in the census returns the children are with her
1861 John Merchant
1871 John, Elizabeth, Luisa (Louisa) Murphy
1881 Louisa, Florence C Murphy
Here's Benjamin's baptism
http://www.lincstothepast.com/Records/RecordDisplayTranscript.aspx?oid=515342&iid=43008
This is the interesting one
Louisa Dixon Barnes 7A/ 203 Q2 Leicester
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Hi.
Thank you Willsy, I agree with you that Louisa Dixon Barnes is a bit of a mystery, to me at the moment.
I have searched through the birth GROs and the closest match for John Merchant jnr born in 1860, which tallies with your 1861 census, no matches in Leic;
John Merchant 1860 AMJ Northampton Vol-3B Pge-55.
I have ordered the birth cert; so we will have to wait and see if his Mother was Ellen Brewin.
Back on-line this evening.
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Hello ....... :)
Willsy - pleased you managed to find the burial for the Ellen Barnes in 1908 as I would have been wondering if it was our Ellen, but sadly it isn't.....it would just have completed her life to have found what happened to her.
I traced the Barnes family from those burials and they can all be found together .The John Barnes was born Halstead, Leics and married Ellen Rimmel 1866..... so it isn't the correct Ellen.
I can't see Ellen in 1911 or her daughter Florence Kilbride - just pondering; if we can't find a marriage for Florence to a Joseph Patrick Kilbride, either they never married or married outside England & Wales? - as Kilbride is a Scottish name, maybe there?
It is strange that John Merchant seemed to have a variety of occupations.... 1861 it was optician and very interesting that on the 1881 census when Ellen is now Murphy under occupation she says "Formerly Optician".
The 1891 census you found does look like Martin Murphy with Ellen, right birthplace but ages way out and Frederick aged 12 given as son?..... but I can't come up with anything else.
Hi Sal1525, it looks like you have got to grips with following this thread, probably because you know how complex Ellen's daughter Elizabeth/Betsy's life turned out to be..... seems to have been a pattern passed down from grandmother, mother to daughter..... I think they had to do what they could to stay out of the workhouse?
The only bit I think you have muddled is; it is Ellen's daughter, Florence Murphy who married Joseph Patrick Kilbride.
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Hi Dizzifish
I didn't think it was Ellen's death nor could I find anything 1911.
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Hi Willsy & Dizziefish,
Great work from you both in regards to the death of Ellen Barnes in 1908--Ellen Rimmel-thank you both. Dizziefish thanks for pointing out my error about Florence`s relationship with Joseph Kilbride.
Just to recap; Ellen had relationships with Thomas Barnes & John Merchant & Martin Murphy for sure, possibly a Dixon. And, Ellen Brewin`s children were;
Maria Barnes
Born-OND 1853 Leic; Vol-7A Pge 154 Father Thomas Barnes.
CHR/ 13 Nov 1853 in St Margaret`s parish, Leic. Abode-Burley Lane.
Died-AMJ 1854 Leic; Vol-7A Pge-112. Buried 10 May 1854 at Welford Rd Cemetery.
John Merchant
Born 1860 place yet to be determined. Father John Merchant.
CHR/ 30 May 1860 St Margaret`s parish, Leic; Abode Royal East Street.
Betsy Merchant aka Elizabeth.
Born--JAS 1862 Leic; Vol-7A Pge-168 Father John Merchant.
CHR/ 10 Aug 1862 St Margaret`s, Leic. Abode-Royal East Street.
Louisa Dixon Barnes
Born-AMJ 1865 Leic; Vol-7A Pge-203. Father unknown.
CHR/
Florence Columbius Murphy
Born-OND 1872 Huddersfield Vol-9A Pge-363. Father Martin Murphy.
CHR/
Married Joseph Patrick Kilbride.
Frederick Murphy
Born about 1879 London. Father Martin Murphy.
CHR/
And to add, Betsy & John Merchant were rechristened 5 March 1865 Barnes. The year that John Merchant may have died, Thomas Barnes went to prison and Louisa was born AMJ qtr.
Was Louisa christened-is she in any of your records? Thomas married Emma in 1864 so she could still be the Daughter of John Merchant? Ellen would have been age 44 thereabouts when she had Frederick-plausible. Have I got the above details right please?
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Hi,
Now that I have a better picture of Ellen Brewins partners and children I am starting to take a look into the censuses that you have found for her and will begin to view them all properly from tomorrow and try to find some more of the BMDs for Ellen`s family. Brilliant work from you all.
The 1861 census details in this thread stands out more so at present because John Merchant`s occupation is throwing me side ways--Optician. John jnr & Ellen`s details appear to `fit` our John jnr & Ellen with birth ages and Ellen`s birth place, again I don`t know enough about John to comment on his age and pob in this census. The job does not make sense, yet, if he is to be tied in with the Leicester facts.
1860 Northampton John jnr born.
1860 Leicester John jnr CHR/ Father a Cutler.
1861 Cheshire census. John an Optician.
1862 Leicester Betsy born & CHR. Father a Master Cutler.
I am keeping in mind here that he could have been a knife sharpener and claiming to be a Master Cutler but if he was a Master then he would have served an apprenticeship for some years, unless someone is able to explain what was required to become a Master please, anyone have any ideas?
Would John have served an apprenticeship to become an Optician, was their a register of Opticians in England at that time?
I suppose he could have been trained by a family member e.g a Father or Uncle that were operating as established Opticians?
The job changes seem too radical and occurring in such a short space of time.
I wonder, could he have become bankrupt as an Optician, and switched back to another Trade that he had been trained in--Cutler?
Well we shall know for sure if we have the right couple once John Merchant jnrs birth cert; arrives. Sorry Dizziefish I did not pick up on your already having found his birth details.
That`s all for tonight.
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Hello,
I am not taking all this in or Sals message boards I will just follow the postings, I will pm Sal to help me with this family its all too confusing. The birth details for Betsy Merchant was
27 July 1862 address 45 Royal East Street, Leicester. John Merchant a Master Cutler and Ellen Merchant once Brewin. Registered by the Mother 7 August 1862. Registrar Robert Warburton.
Hey-well done for all the research that is taking place.
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Hi,
Rab I have sent you another pm and happy to help you.
I have found a record in the England & Wales Criminal Registers, 1791-1892 for John Marchant, the same person that we have found in the newspaper reports.
Date of Trial; 17 Oct 1864 Leicestershire.
Entry no 8. John Marchant-Common Larceny.
"Prisoner is now a lunatic in the County Lunatic Asylum under the Secretary of States Warrant. The recognizances of the witnesses were ordered to be discharged."
I then searched through the entire 52 pages of the 1861 census found for John & Ellen in the hope of finding more family members but there were none, just a Louisa Barnes from Manchester, age 21 on page 16 but I do not think that she has anything to do with Thomas Barnes.
In regards to John Merchant/Marchant I will put him on hold until the two (birth & death) certificates arrive.
In the meantime I shall continue to look for Ellen`s kids details and view the censuses for Ellen from 1861 onwards which you have found. I`ll not delve into the extended Brewin family at present.
Whilst chasing up the newspaper reports for Thomas Barnes I came across the following who I think was Ellen`s Husband, what do you think?
The Leicester Mercury 11 Sep 1854. Assaults.
"Thomas Barnes charged with assaulting Catherine Squires, who said on 2nd Sep, Barnes went to her Mothers house in Burleys Lane, Leic where he struck her several times. Defendant used to lodge with her Mother. Fined 20 shillings or 3 weeks prison. Another Warrant out for Barnes for assaulting his Wife-but she did not appear in Court."
In 1854 his Daughter Maria died and he and Ellen were still living together at Burleys Lane----has to be the same couple and perhaps why she left him? Would you agree?
Another, forgot to take down the newspaper details, looks like the same Thomas?
18 April 1885 "James Bateman, Brother-in-law threatened Thomas Barnes of 11 New Road, Burleys Lane, Leic." Case dismissed.
Has Thomas gone on to marry or live with a Bateman?
Back later.
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I've found Elizaberth Ellen Kilbride's baptism online, birth dated as on certificate and baptism before the amendment
Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
Name: Elizabetha Helena Kilbride
Birth Date: 21 Dec 1892
Baptism Date: 5 Feb 1893
Parish: St Joseph's, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: Josephi Kilbride
Mother's name: Florentiae Murphy
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Hi Willsy,
Well done for finding the baptism for E. E Kilbride. This makes me wonder as to whether or not Joseph and Florence married in a Roman Catholic church--if so then most of those records would not be available to view on-line.
It may prove productive to have another search in the Liverpool RC registers for a marriage for them both.
To add to your findings over at ancestry I found the details for Elizabeth`s birth, thanks to the previous posting on this thread; 21 Dec 1892 at Prospect Place, Canal Street, Nottingham but her Mother`s address was 10 Cazneau Street, Liverpool?
Father Joseph a Theatrical Scene Painter-----so, did he travel around theatres, schools or something similar, I`m not clear as to what this profession entailed?
Elizabeth Ellen Kilbride--aka Ellen--married Alfred Percy Purches 17 March 1914 at St. Alkmund, Derby. GRO-JFM 1914 Derby Vol-7B Pge-818
It looks as if Alfred was born 1887 Islington, London and died 1954 Sidcup, Kent.
But Elizabeth died 29 Jan 1988 Bondi, New South Wales, Australia. I wonder if she remarried?
I have yet to look up a 1911 census for Elizabeth and her Mother or to carry out a search for Joseph.
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I started to look for them but got absorbed looking for Ellen's death, can't work out what the declaration is for, have the reg for 1893 but there should be something Q1 1892 unless she wasn't registered at birth. Might have answered my own question there but no expert, have only come across a declaration once before and that was easy, my great grandmother named 3 children as belonging to her dead husband up to 5 yrs later!
I had the same thoughts about the parents marrying in a Catholic church.
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If you look at the electoral rolls Australia 1980, she is with her daughter Patricia Georgina, there's a passenger list Fremantle Jun 1963 Vessel Fairsea, just the 2 of them traveling together
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Hello again,
Yesterday I was able to go through the census returns that you all found for Ellen Brewin and I do think that you have found the right records for the same Ellen, again the 1861 has me perplexed but seems to follow through with the others, going on from the 1871 census;
1871. Searched 51 pages. New Street, Wellington, Shropshire.
The kids ages and places of birth do match with what we have learnt here which is promising, but I was surprised to see that the enumerator stated that Elizabeth was paralized? The 1881 & 1891 & 1901 & 1911 censuses for her do not say that she was paralized or disabled in any way. Perhaps it was a temporary situation- down to illness? If she was disabled in some way that might also have added to her life struggles and played a part in her moral demise?
Ellen`s POB Isle of Man--I will chase that up to see if it pans out but she may have made it up having gone through what she did with Thomas Barnes & John Merchant etc... and Martin is now away from his Mariner profession so perhaps they were trying to avoid people/detection, start anew?
Martin was born New York which I believe he was of Irish descent. Their Daughter Florence`s middle name Columbius---I wonder if she was named after a Town that he may have come from--Columbus a Town in Chenango County, New York?
Their immediate neighbour was a Thomas & Diana Gregory which I shall file away in case that has something to do with Ellen`s Mother. And on page 3 was a Jane Glover from Salop, Blymhill.
1881 Census. Searched 38 pages.
6 Church Stile Model Lodging House, Castelton, Lancs.
Again the correct people with John absent. (Betsy was in Derby with Robert Welsh) Martin`s gone back to being a Seaman and Ellen a former Optician, you are right here---it does tie in with the 1861 census. The occupations of Seaman & Hawker also explains why they were moving around a lot.
Florence was at School- St Francis Roman Catholic----which further endorses my belief that Martin was a Roman Catholic and probably the reason why we have not found her baptism record.
There were a lot of Irish people in the area, along with Ellen`s prior family ties in Lancashire it all sounds correct. A few Murphy families in the area, not an uncommon name I know.
1891 Census. Searched 64 pages. St Katherine`s Road, Kensington, London.
Martin still a Mariner, age 61. Correct details for Ellen. This record is the same couple that you have been tracing.
Ellen could have been Mother to Frederick age 12-just about--I will try to find a School record for him or he could possibly be the Son of Louisa or Betsy?
Betsy had an illegitimate child Ellen in 1879 in this district or Hammersmith?; and another Daughter Obinia/Althenia (not her real name) born about 1888 Notting Hill and I had wondered what brought her to London, aside from passing through, so perhaps they had even more family members living in the area. Page 3 was a John Brewin and family. and quite a few Murphy families in St Katherine`s Road and the adjoining Street.
In 1891 Betsy was in Chatham and seperated from all of her children--living with a Thomas Brown.
1901 Census. Searched 28 pages. 6 Lower Green Street, Leicester.
Ellen having reverted back to the name of Barnes leaves me to believe that she did not marry Martin Murphy at all. Returning to Leic; her home Town for many years--Thomas Barnes deceased, scandal forgotten?
Ann Brewin; Joseph Gregory and a Dixon family in the vicinity and a few Murphy`s.
Where has Joseph Kilbride gone?
That is as far as I got with the censuses but shall search for the 1911 census and try to find out what become of John jnr, Louisa and Florence. I am grateful to you all for your input.
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So far to add to the pot
1901
RG13; Piece: 3093; Folio: 175; Page: 39
John Marehunt
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/2D1J-7N7
He's from Peterborough but I can't see anything 1881/1891 to help
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Think this might be him 1881 but c 1854
RG11; Piece: 3277; Folio: 51; Page: -8
c 1857 here
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X7YJ-BZL
No family names at all, not sure ???
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I know you have been hoping for more details on Elizabeth/Betsy's husband, Robert Welsh.
Last night I thought I would do a bit of newspaper trawling for myself, when a few things cropped up to put ideas in my head and off I went, on a tangent and one thing led to another..... ::)
The Derby Mercury, Wednesday, February 2, 1881.
A Recruit - ROBERT WELSH was charged with being drunk in Iron-gate on the previous afternoon. - Prisoner said he joined the Militia on the previous day and was celebrating the event. - Fined 5s and costs, or seven days.
~ ~ ~ ~
The Derby Mercury Wednesday, March 2, 1881.
A Fraudulent Enlistment - ROBERT WELSH was charged with making a false attestation on being enrolled in the 1st Derby Militia. - He admitted the offence. - Sergeant O'Connor said the prisoner when asked whether he had ever served in or been rejected by this or any other militia regiment answered in the negative. He had since acknowledged that he served one training in the Nottinghamshire Militia. - Prisoner was sent to gaol for 14 days.
~ ~ ~ ~
I have seen his militia attestation papers, I confess, I don't understand everything.....there is the first signing in January 1881, which fits with the newspaper articles, then he signed up again in June 1882.
He said he lived at 19, Walkers Lane, Derby.... must be your Robert? said he was born Belper, Derbyshire and was Roman Catholic - by second signing in 1882 his address was 3, Orchard St, Leicester.
List of dates each year from 1886 to 1890 which says re engaged 1.7.90 then 1891 Absent.
If you want the whole file details they are here : http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-united-kingdom-records-in-military-armed-forces-and-conflict
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Hi Dizziefish & Willsy,
Oh My God-this is all fantastic, welcoming news to me. You two are brilliant. I have to shoot off to work now but shall follow up all this great info` tomorrow. Well done.
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Robert's denomination on the military records are Roman Catholic so had a look at Non Conformist Baptisms
Bap 21-Oct 1884 Welsh Louisa
Born 12-Oct 1884
Parents Robert Elizabeth Murphy Leicester
Leicester, St. Patrick Roman Catholic
Was the death the right one for Robert that was mentioned on the Robert thread?
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As there doesn't seem to be a birth in Belper registration district and on the 1881 census Robert gives his birthplace as Leeds ; his marriage certificate his father is Matthew?.
I thought I would mention this......but, still no wiser, as I can't see a birth registration in Leeds either or find them in 1871.
Baptism - St Peter's Church, Leeds.
Born 22 May 1863 - baptised 28th May 1863
Robert son of Matthew & Jane WELCH - abode York St, occupation Labourer.
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Oooh, I'd just found that ;D
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Found a baptism in Chester
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F34X-5ZK
Alfredus Kilbride
Event Type: Baptism
Event Date: 21 Jun 1891
Event Place: St. Werburgh's, Chester, Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Father's Name: Josephi Kilbride
Mother's Name: Florentiae Murphy Kilbride
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Hi Willsy..... :)
I have just seen your latest post, the original record is on F m p .... St Werbergh, Chester is Roman Catholic, it also says his birth date of 17th April 1891. Census night was 5th April 1891.
Florence is a visitor in Bowling, Bradford with Benjamin & Elizabeth Hunt... I think I looked at them previously but couldn't see a connection.
Maybe this is Alfred' birth registration.
Births Jun 1891
Kilbride Alfred - Bradford, Y. 9b 45
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Hi Willsy & Dizziefish,
You 2 have blown me away with your findings on this thread, great stuff.
Before I can begin to chase up the findings for Robert I will address Florence following on with Willsy`s results.
Good work finding the passenger list Willsy. Elizabeth aka Ellen had 11 children with Alfred Purches including the one that you have found-Patricia.
Alfredus, excellent, someone has him in their ancestry tree as-Alfred-`Nunkie` Kilbride, dying 16 Jul 1951 but no death place and very little details for his Mother Florence.
Florence Murphy School; London, England, School Admissions & Discharges, 1840-1911;
Florence Murphy age 11. Born 23 Nov 1872. Father Martin Murphy.
St. Clement`s Road School. Borough; Kensington & Chelsea. Entry no-853.
Admission date; 16 Jun 1884.
Address; 44 St Clements Road.
Last School was St. Francis. RC, Public Elementary School.
Ref no; LCC/EO/DIV01/STCL2/AD/004
Florence was not in the 1891 census with her parents but this record does show that she also lived in London, it is possible that she may have met Joseph Patrick whilst living in London up to 1891.
Ellen & Martin Murphy were living in this area 1884-1891, at least, but the school record further supports your finding the right 1891 census.
I did not find a school record for Frederick with Father`s name Martin but did find a Fred Murphy, age 7, born 11 Jul 1874, going to the same school-Father Michael Murphy with a Michael Murphy living on his own in St Katherine`s Road-1891. Not sure if that was relevant or not but thought I`d post the detail all the same.
St Clement Road was in the Notting Dale area of Kensington. St Clement parish, Notting Hill which may prove to be relevant to Betsy with her `supposedly` having had children in the area and in the same time frame when her parents were living in this area.
Need to catch up with some sleep but will check out the wonderful results for Betsy, Robert---and Louise-ooh so exciting-was Louise the girl that renamed herself Obinia/Althenia?
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You could request the Chester one
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Photoduplication_Services
forgot to mention it last night
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Hello Dizziefish & Willsy,
This is all quite extraordinary reading your posts about Robert Welsh with myself and a couple of other people not having been able to track his journey before now, going round in circles. I thought that Betsy`s Mother was a Murphy or McCarthy but the birth cert; posted by Rab has blown those myths out of the way and opened up this search in the most positive ways possible.
The time and effort that you are putting into this search is not lost on me, thank you very much.
Well done dizziefish finding the military records. I believe you have found the correct record for Robert with the 1881 enlistment----abode 19 Walkers Lane, Derby.
I have chased up and found the Nottingham Militia records for a Robert Walsh born 1871 Mansfield, Nottingham at FindMyPast---and then again at ancestry and it is not the right Robert Welsh. No harm in being able to eliminate him though.
27 Sep 1889-Robert Walsh, age 18, from Mansfield had brown/hazel eyes and a scar on his left shin. Born 1871.
He served in the 4th Battalion Derby Regiment. Military no-4046. Abode; 4 Farrows Yard, Stockwell Gate, Mansfield. (FMPast.)
28 Jan 1881-- Robert Welch, age 19, had no scars and blue eyes. Born 1862. Abode; 19 Walkers Lane. Derby Militia. I think his military number was 1238 but I will recheck that.
Ancestry-Robert Walsh born 1871 St Peter`s, Mansfield 1889 also a Labourer. 4 Farrance Yard, as above.
Served in India & Malta. Father Robert Welsh. The 1871 & 1881 census returns in Mansfield have Robert living with his parents Ann & Robert & siblings.
I will follow on with more about Robert Welsh who married Betsy Merchant.
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Hello,
Dizziefish, thank you for the baptism record-I had come across that one before and 2 birth GROs for 1866, Leeds, Yorkshire but dare not order a cert; until I had much more to go on what with the web of lies that surrounds Robert & Betsy it was hard to pin him down at all. And now the Military record yields a new birthplace Belper, Derby, I shall not be surprised if another birthplace does not crop up. However, I do believe that he was born about 1860.
Military record and the 1881 census born 1862. Marriage record born 1861.
And you are right they did marry 20 Feb 1882 St Michael`s, Derby.
Robert 21y, Bricklayer. Father Matthew Welsh a Labourer.
Elizabeth 20y. Father John Merchant an Upholsterer.
Witnessed; Ann Curan & G. Adie
Robert`s abodes;
28 Jan 1881--19 Walkers Lane, Derby. Military Attestation.
03 Apr 1881-- Walkers Lane, Derby. Census
20 Feb 1882-- Walkers Lane, Derby. Marriage cert;
30 Jun 1882--03 Orchard Street, Leicester. Military reenlistment.
21 Oct 1884-- Leicester. Dtr Louise born. (thank you for the details)
02 Jan 1886-- Islington, London. Son John`s CHR/.
21 Nov 1906-- Maidstone, Kent according to the Dr Barnado report.
Occupations; Labourer at Smith`s Foundry; Bricklayer; General Labourer; Soldier-Rank-Private; Hawker (recorded in dtr Ellen`s first 2 marriages)
Physical description 1881/82; Blue eyes; Brown hair; No distinctive marks; Height 5ft 3/4"; Fresh complexion.
Religion; Roman Catholic.
Father Matthew Welsh-- Mother unknown.
Military-served in the; 1st Derby Militia & Military Reserve, Buffs Leicester Militia.
Training 1886-1889.
Reengaged 1 Jul 1890. Absent 1891-----because---?
Sons Robert & John Welsh were placed into Dr Barnado`s Care Homes 7 Feb 1890 and emigrated to Canada 17 Mar 1892?
Did Robert wilfully cooperate with Betsy and put the boys in care; did he have no say or was completely unaware of the children's plight or abandon her altogether-does make me wonder? Would the authorities, in regards to the boys, tracked Robert down through his Military service and he has done a bunk?
Children;
Ellen Welsh born 7 Feb 1879 Hammersmith. Source death cert; Dr B report-Ellen was alias McCarthy born 1879. Was she Susannah in the 1881 census and was she Robert`s Dtr at all? The Military records do not list him having any children.
Louise Welch born 21 Oct 1884. CHR/ 12 Oct 1884 Leicester.
I wonder if she was Obinia/Althenia, not her real name, who later claims that she was born 1888 Millwall/Notting Hill, Obinia changed her identity and may have been born a Welsh or Smith?
Robert; born;
8 Dec 1882 Sheffield Dr B`s Letter. 28 Jan 1887 Chatham, Kent. WW1 details.
27 Jan 1883 of Scottish nationality. 1901 Canadian census.
My guess is 1883-passenger list age 9.
John; CHR/2 Jan 1886 St Barnabus Church, Hornsey Road, Islington, London (ancestry) & Dr B report said 1886. Passenger list age 6 in 1892 when he emigrated to Canada.
James Welch alias Smith; Born about 1889. No other details known.
Betsy`s other children were Brown and Arnold`s they were all born after her time with Robert.
Their Daughter Ellen married in 1923 and stated that her Father Robert Welsh was a general Hawker & deceased.
Robert junior stated that he was born in Chatham in his WW1 record and that may have been because his Mother lived there at that time.
Newspaper articles Derby Mercury for the 2 Mar 1881 & 2 Feb 1881 certainly tie in with the Military record found for him. The false attestation claim means that he did serve in the Nottingham Regiment at some point. Have I got this right Robert served in the Nottingham, Derby & Leicester Militias? Definitely him being drunk having enlisted 28 Jan 1881.
You have certainly helped put more meat-on-the-bones of Robert, once again thank you.
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Did anything come of the death certificate for Robert as I found a moulder ( thinking of the military records) 1891 but younger and single in Islington
RG12; Piece: 274; Folio: 129; Page: 10
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Hi Willsy,
I did not order the death cert; for Robert at the time when Mike & Bunnygirl were helping me on the posts for Robert`s details as I could not be sure that it was the right one.
The 2 pieces of information that I had for Robert, which were facts, was the 1881 census & Marr/cert; not enough to go on.
Back then, very green, I was just starting to learn about Betsy Merchant, information was coming from all directions and I was very much how Rab is today when trying to take it all in, and it became clear very quickly with the help of 2 other researchers who knew more than I did just how tangled, and deceitful at times, this Lady, Betsy, was.
In regards to Betsy I could not trust her words on family matters as being facts at all. She first said in 1890 to Dr Barnado`s that Robert died in Leicester infirmary----Mike proved that was not the case.
By 1906 the Dr Barnado report said that Robert "at the time of admission with Robert jnr & John, Father Robert, stated to be dead, but is now believed to be residing at Maidstone."
It kept nagging me that his Daughter Ellen stated that he was alive in 1897 & 1904 when marrying but deceased in 1923 when she married for the last time. How would she know unless she had continued contact with Robert or in touch with someone else that knew of his whereabouts. And yes she could have said he was alive as wishful thinking from a young lady but I don`t `think` so.
Robert, can we trust his words--we already have him lying to the Military Services in 1881 about having served before and he has given 2 birth places within 2 years to date---but he is young and may have learnt his lesson about deception or continued in the same vain throughout his life.
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Hi,
No new results to report, been following up your links for Florence Columbius, partner & children and can now see the difficulty that you had with them, ha ha.
Blimey---there were a lot of Florence`s in the marriage & death records in Leic; Midlands; Yorkshire, a popular name-got no farther there.
To save anyone else searching, using her forenames only, I searched the entire Eng & Wales Wills & Probate records, 1858-1966 in the hope that she had made a Will-----if she did it was without her middle name included--covering the areas; Lincs; Leic; Derbyshire; Notts; Staffordshire; Wolverhampton; Coventry; Grimsby; Stoke/Trent; Peterborough; Warwickshire; Cambridgeshire.
I thought I might find her with her Daughter Ellen, haven`t done so yet. Goodness me Ellen & Alfred Purches travelled around the country a lot going by their kids births. I think Alfred must have been a Hawker or military man of some kind---any help with looking up a military record shall be warmly welcomed and received please--I could not get anywhere at FMPast-what the hell have they done with their search facility.
Surprised how few records are available at ancestry for the surname Kilbride, so he was a scene painter & artist and looks like he may have been alive in 1914 when his Dtr E. Ellen marries.
I will check the artist lists this evening and I know that there was a directory for theatrical scene painters, just not sure if that is available on-line to view.
I`ll see if I can help to track down Ellen Brewin/Barnes and what became of Martin. Interesting that she went back to the name of Barnes having divorced one would assume her name would be Brewin. Anyway, back later.
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Hi Sal,
I have still been looking when I get the chance.
I have sent you a message re Alfred Purches.
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Hi Dizziefish,
Thank you very much indeed. I have now viewed the newspaper articles and Military records for Alfred but shall not post details here for privacy reasons.
I have searched high and low for the death of Ellen Barnes-Lordy-Lordy- there are too many results to be able to pin her down at this moment in time so that search shall be out on hold for the time being whilst I try to find more records for Martin Murphy.
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Hi Willsy..... :)
I have just seen your latest post, the original record is on F m p .... St Werbergh, Chester is Roman Catholic, it also says his birth date of 17th April 1891. Census night was 5th April 1891.
Florence is a visitor in Bowling, Bradford with Benjamin & Elizabeth Hunt... I think I looked at them previously but couldn't see a connection.
Maybe this is Alfred' birth registration.
Births Jun 1891
Kilbride Alfred - Bradford, Y. 9b 45
Hi,
After conducting an extensive search for Joseph & Florence in the 1891 census I have to agree with you Dizziefish that it was the right Florence visiting the Hunt family in Bowling Old Lane, Bowling, Yorkshire. Florence minus Joseph, age 18, born Huddersfield.
The Hunts may or may not have family ties somewhere in searches down the line, considering Florence`s family were affiliated with Yorkshire just have to wait and see on that one. And, of course, not forgetting that she was born in Yorkshire.
Joseph-I went back and tried to find him but the few Joseph`s that I did find all went on to marry other ladies. And he was not listed in any of the artists listings, theatrical scene-painters--there are directories for them in book form but I will tend to that some rainy day.
For now I shall set them both to one side and keep looking for details about her Mother Ellen and make a start to search for her half-sister Louise.
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Hi,
Finally, I had time to read through my mail from yesterday and have received both certificates--you were all correct with your findings, well done, great work and thank you.
Birth-John Merchant 1860;
Born- 18 Mar 1860. Abode Riding, Northampton.
Father John Merchant a Cabinet Maker. Mother Ellen Merchant formerly BREWIN.
Reg-district Northampton Union. Sub-reg-Saint Giles. Northampton.
Death-John Marchant 1865;
Died-6 Dec 1865. Lunatic Asylum, St Mary, Leicester.
John Marchant. 39 years. Scissor Grinder. Cause; General paralysis of the insane. Certified.
Informant; Joseph Johnston, in attendance at the Asylum.
Registered; 7 Dec 1865. Leicester. Sub-reg-district West Leicester.
John Merchant junior;
CHR/ 30 May 1860 St Margaret`s, Leicester. Abode Royal East Street. Father a Cutler.
CHR/ 5 Mar 1865 in Leicester. Any idea where please, address?
Your finding the 1861 census for John & Ellen & John jnr was spot on.
Address; 64 George Street, Altrincham, Cheshire. Father an Optician? (still puzzling me)
1871 Census--enumerated as John Murphy, age 12. living with his Mother Ellen & step-father Martin Murphy & sisters at New Street, Wellington, Shropshire. The right census for them all, great stuff.
The 1906 Dr Barnado report stated that maternal Uncle John Merchant-Barnes was aged 45, a seaman not heard of for 30 years.
His surname was one which Betsy created in order to marry Edwin Arnold bigamously, which she had to maintain in order to not be found out and prosecuted so she applied the same surname to John & sister Louisa in this report. Also, Betsy would not have wanted the authorities to track down her own kin of that I am sure. Omitted from the report was any mention of half-sister Florence and Father John Merchant.
John might have been a seaman given that his step-father Martin Murphy was a seaman/mariner during his lifetime.
John Marchant/Merchant senior.
All of you wonderful volunteers have helped me finally find out what happened to Ellen Brewin`s partner who was absent for so long with my own research, only part of his story told here but I am now better informed, thank you. The John you have found is the right one.
Born about 1826 London. 1861 census-Optician, Cheshire.
Died 6 Dec 1865 Leicester Asylum, age 39, the same man that you discovered who was buried 10 Dec 1865 Welford Road, CA-729, Leicester, age 39, once again well done.
This record and the death cert; states that he was in the Leicester Asylum which all ties in with the newspaper articles found for him and the Criminal record.
When christening his 2 children his occupation was listed as Cutler which matches the detail given in his death certificate.
18 Aug 1864--committed theft at Claybrooke Magna, Leicester. Victim Samuel Masson.
14 Sep 1864--transferred from Leicester Gaol to the Asylum.
17 Oct 1864--date of Trial, already in the Asylum.
21 Oct 1864--reported in the Nottinghamshire Guardian, Friday about the proceedings held at the Leicester Crown Court for John Marchant, a cabinet maker, theft of cutlery etc.. from Samuel. John was proved to be insane and his recognizances discharged. Cabinet maker as listed on his Son`s birth cert;
22 Oct 1864--reported in the Chronicle & Mercury United, Saturday, prison inspection; John Marchant was removed from Gaol to the Asylum "for reason of insanity, insane on admission". 14/9/64
Definitely the right man who was the partner of Ellen and Father to John & Betsy and I daresay Louise. I don`t think that the court case against Thomas helped his situation much and I wonder if he was made aware that Ellen rechristened the kids Barnes and what affect that would have had on John.
I`ll order Louise Dixon Barnes birth cert; next to see where her Mother was living at that time. When Ellen`s Brother Benjamin was giving evidence in the case against Thomas Barnes he said that Ellen may have been in residence in the Union, but I shall not be expecting to see a Father recorded.
Another piece of the puzzle solved, thank you.
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Just reading through after being away for a few days. I still get excited when a piece of info lands that pulls it together, wish I could find Ellen but as SAL1525 found, I struggled with Kilbride and there are an awful lot of Ellen Barnes.
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Hi Sal.... Hi Willsy,
Just catching up - Thanks for the update and great news that the certificates were correct and a relief too :D
It will be really interesting to see what is entered on Louisa's birth certificate.
There are still lots of questions and puzzles to solve... we just need a few more clues!
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Oooh Dizzifish, am with you :)
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Found Robert Welsh Baptism, mother Elizabeth Murphy
20 Dec 1882 Cathedral Church of St. Marie, Sheffield, York, England
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JQH3-9BQ
http://www.sheffieldindexers.com/ParishBaptismIndex.html
Welsh, Robertus (of Water Lane, born 1882-12-08).
Baptised December 20, 1882, by Cyrillo DeCuyper at St Maries, Sheffield Centre.
Parents name(s) are Elizabethae Murphy & Roberti
Sponsor: John Welsh Jane Welsh
might help on the Robert Welsh thread, hope it's not getting too confusing
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Hi Willsy & Dizziefish,
Wow! Woweee!! Blimey I cannot believe my own eyes!
Your finding Robert`s baptism record--fantastic--at last we have his right birth date! Unbelievable-the searches that were undertaken to try, unsuccessfully, to find that were lengthy indeed, well done, great stuff.
What with the 3 birth dates given in his formal documents, 1901C & WW1 & Dr B`s report;
in addition to being unclear about his Mother`s true origins; the further mysteries surrounding the many aliases that she did use in her lifetime; moving around & my not being able to pin her down in the earlier censuses; the many men in her life; deception; her going to prison; children in and out of care; my stalling with John & Ellen Merchant and not getting any further with Matthew Welsh I never quite knew where to start looking for his birth record.
I just kept hitting a brickwall with finding his birth record but was quite sure that he was the Son of Robert, born in the year or the following one from when they married and you have now been able to solve another mystery, great stuff.
The WW1 birth date, making himself 5 years younger, I think was purposefully done so that he could qualify to sign up for Military service.
I was unable to justify where the names Murphy & McCarthy fitted into this family at all but felt sure that there was an Irish connection somewhere and you lovely, diligent volunteers have found it with Martin Murphy-thank you. `My looking-glass had become to narrow.`
The surname McCarthy linked to Daughter Ellen, born 1879, I have yet to decipher, I think I have found her in an 1891 census in london, but this thread has really brought down the brickwalls surrounding this family and, remarkably, given the surname Murphy its rightful home along with the beginnings of the Irish links with more to come I am sure.
Robert`s baptism, of course, Roman Catholic & with the name Elizabeth MURPHY! And, she did give the correct birth date to Dr Barnado`s staff when she placed the boys in care, well I never.
She said that John Welsh was born 1886 Holloway, Dr B, which I had assumed was in London, I am aware that there is another in Derby and although I have found the 2 Jan 1886 baptism in Islington I am now split 50/50 as to whether or not this is the right one. On the surface it would seem that Betsy was still in a relationship with Robert Welsh snr, which I did not know at the time of finding that record.
Her parents we now know were living in London in 1886 so it may make sense that she has gone to visit them and had Son John there perhaps, or maybe part of Robert seniors Military training which he was involved with at the time, based in Leicester, has taken him there--but St Barnabus was not a RC church if she were to follow through with the religious denomination as with Robert, I need to assess John`s baptism again. Louisa was she baptized?
Sponsors;
John & Jane Welsh--maybe siblings or Jane--Robert seniors Mother?
Robert`s Father on the marriage cert; was a Matthew Welsh, a Labourer and the 1881 census reveals that Robert was born Leeds, Yorkshire about 1862. (If he gave the right birth place)
Father Matthew--a few times I came across censuses for a Matthew & Jane Welsh in the Yorkshire districts, ooh this is exciting I will chase up details later today.
Thank you very much, I am-so-happy-so-happy-yippetty-day!
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I'm hooked looking!!!
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Hi Willsy,
Its all great fun, I`m also hooked. Love the Sheffield website link, thank you.
Off to work but back on-line tomorrow.
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Hi Sal & Willsy,
A good find re Robert's baptism Willsy! I have not had the opportunity to look much these last few days and most things came to nothing, and I just seemed to be going over old ground.
I was just having one of my pondering moments which turned up a record which was more luck than judgement... :D
So, just as we seem to have solved one puzzle with this family they throw another into the mix!
1891 census has Elizabeth living with Thomas Brown - Piece 662 /Folio 119 /Page 32 - 155, Brook, Chatham, Kent.
Baptism at St Mary's, Chatham, Kent = 00050182.jpg (links have been playing up sometimes)
Florence - Baptism 23rd Sept 1890 - parents Robert & Elizabeth WELSH, occupation Labourer - Abode - 155, Brook.
Not sure, but could this possibly be her birth registration?
Births Dec 1890
Welch Florence - Medway 2a 536
1891 census - 5th April 1891 and no Florence with Elizabeth Welsh & Thomas Brown..... what became of her?
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Hi,
Dizziefish well done, yes I have seen that record before but was not sure as to whether or not I should have followed it through (way back in time) because Elizabeth had placed her 2 sons into care in Feb 1890--where this event took place I do not know---Leicester or London perhaps, then she was living with Thomas Brown in 1891 and they went on to have daughter Faith who was born in 1892. At that point in time I believed Robert to have been deceased.
Last year I had worked out that Elizabeth Merchant-Barnes had married bigamously, that was the reason for the name change and followed through by changing her siblings and Father`s surname also, no need to do so if you really were a widow. And the Daughter Ellen marrying twice stating that he was alive and then deceased in her final 1923 marriage entry, plus Dr B thinking Robert was living in Maidstone in 1906 all go to making it plausible that the right Robert had moved to Kent and yes therefore, if together, they could have had another child, or had already been carrying Robert`s child but not with him any longer.
Take this with a large pinch of salt please "after leaving Robert by 1886/90 roughly-who had died in the Leicester Infirmary (not true) she was supposedly in a relationship with a man named Smith and had had a couple of children by him and they were also placed into care or their whereabouts were unknown?" If she had more kids placed into Dr Barnados then they would have been mentioned in the 1906 report with more detail; they said that according to Betsy there was a Son James Welch aka Smith age 17 so born about 1889--whereabouts unknown and Obinia Welch alias Smith age 18, born 1888, she was living with her Mother at that time. This was the only documented evidence in regards to the surname Smith. You can see how confusing all of this information was a couple of years ago being very new to Betsy`s story.
Betsy could have had a couple more kids between 1885-1890. But, due to your results, I have a suspicion here that she did not break up with Robert, fully, before 1889-1890, hence Robert jnr & John being placed in care.
I think that there is much more to Betsy`s & Roberts story, yet to be discovered, we are getting closer to narrowing down their time frame between 1885-1890, but much more is being digested and opening up with this message board than I thought possible due to Rab and all the great help given by everyone.
Your finding Robert`s military records was of great value as we can see that he was based in Leicester and in training up to 1890 where he reengages for service in July 1890--after the boys were put in care in Feb-----where was Louisa? Betsy was in Leicester in 1884 with Louisa being born. The question for me is was she in Leicester for a couple more years, with Robert? If the baptism record for their Son John proves to be correct then they were both in Islington, London in 1886 and both recorded as being his parents in the baptism record, but I am beginning to have doubts about this baptism not being RC and Robert was definitely alive in 1890, Betsy having stated that he was deceased by 1890.
I was not able to fathom out previously what brought Betsy into Chatham in the first place, I know that I have a lot more to learn about her extended family yet but can now remotely consider that she may have moved to Chatham as a result of Robert`s military duties? There are Army Barracks based both in Chatham & Maidstone, Kent he may have been stationed in either.
If correct then Florence might be their Daughter----Obenia? Maybe Robert did not want to be with Betsy at all and she has followed him into Kent and he abandoned her again, Betsy was definitely not with Robert Welsh from the 1891 census onwards.
And with your findings in this thread I have learnt about the existence of Robert & Betsy`s Daughter Louise being born 1884 in Leicester, where was she age 7 in 1891?
Incidentally, recently I learnt that the maiden name on Faith`s birth cert; which had been difficult to decipher was Bruin, it was thought that the name was a misspelling of the surname Brown until I read this message board, great stuff when the penny drops.
Dizziefish you might be on to something here. Once I have ordered Florence Columbius birth cert; I may well order the Florence that you have found. It does appear to be too much of a coincidence with the same address and same named people Robert & Betsy and now we know that she had a sister Florence-umm maybe, good work.
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Hi,
I have ordered the following birth certs;
Florence C Murphy 1872 Huddersfield & Florence Welsh 1890 Medway.
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Hi,
Whilst looking for more details about Louisa Dixon Barnes and not getting too far, including her middle name, I dropped the Dixon and found too many same named people in the marriage, censuses & death indexes for Louisa Barnes & Louisa Murphy`s for me to sort through at this moment in time, get back to it later.
I decided to widen the search for Louisa via her extended family on her Mother`s side in the hope that she may have been living local to one of them which for the time being it would appear that she was not.
My extended search began with her Grandmother Eleanor aka Ellen who I suspected was born a Gregory, as she was enumerated as such in the 1851 & 1861 censuses, and found the following marriage which I believe to be the right one, would you agree?
Eleanor Gregory married Thomas Glover
4 May 1812 at All Saints, Loughborough, Leicester.
Source; ancestry.co.uk
She married Benjamin Brewin legitimately on the 16 Sep 1822 at Sulcoates with the name Eleanor Glover. She must have been widowed. Lots of Thomas Glover`s to sift through and no marriage record found for her, yet, to Joseph Dixon.
1851 & 1861 & 1871 censuses Eleanor stated that she was born about 1794-1801 in Ely or Isle of Ely, Cambridgeshire I have conducted a general search for her at ancestry and familyseach.org but have come up with nothing yet so I have posted a message for a look-up on the Cambridgeshire boards here at Rootschat and hopefully one of those fine people might be able to come up trumps for us to be able to extend Eleanor`s family.
Another piece of the jigsaw coming together, all good stuff.
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Has witness as William Roadley for marriage to Thomas Glover
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Will pm you, found something I haven't had time to check
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Oh wow.... that's the problem when you only have a transcription, so looks like Eleanor/ Ellen was born Gregory? weird that some of the children use a middle name of Glover.... you would have thought it would be Gregory?
I hope the certificate is the correct one for Florence Welsh, I am sure the baptism is Elizabeth & Robert's daughter, just hope she was registered in Medway.
I have a little bit re Amelia Brown who is on the 1891 census with Elizabeth Welsh in Chatham.
I won't post it yet as it looks like there is a lot going on at the moment. 8)
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Hi Dizziefish & Willsy,
I am positively buzzing with excitement with all of the new results that keep filtering through, great stuff, can`t wait to look for some more information.
Yes I thought it was a bit odd to have some of the Brewin children's` middle name as Glover and not Gregory.
Florence Welsh born 1890 in Medway don`t be too concerned if not the right record as we need to be able to prove its validity one way or the other. Ordering the cert; was something that I had considered previously, better now than not at all. The baptism record is looking promising but we need a search for this Florence to see what become of her, I will search for her some time in the week.
The marriage entry at ancestry listed no witnesses, how did you find out about William Roadley Willsy-good work? Just a pity the Fathers were not listed as that would have helped a great deal.
Thank you both for your personal messages which I shall respond to tomorrow.
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Hi,
Just a quickie before I shoot off to work. The certificate has arrived;
Birth of Louisa Dixon Barnes. 31 May 1865. Address; 13 Wood Street, Leicester.
Father; Thomas Barnes a Licensed Hawker.
Mother; Ellen Barnes formerly DIXON
Registered by Ellen Barnes on the 13 June 1865.
Wow!! I do not believe that Thomas was her Father. My belief is that John Merchant/Marchant was Louisa`s real Father.
Louisa was conceived about Sep 1864, Thomas married Emma Taylor Nov 1864 & John had gone to prison in Sep 1864, unless Ellen went back to Thomas briefly, which I doubt that she did?
In the March of 1865 Ellen had rechristened Betsy & John with the surname of Barnes-------after the well publicised Trial for bigamy so I would have to say that she has followed through with the name change for Louisa.
Dixon the `step-fathers` name instead of Brewin. What do you think?
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Hi,
Suzard over at the Cambridgeshire boards has found Ellen Gregory`s death GRO entry.
We are still no further with finding her baptism record at the moment but the volunteers have been most helpful and I am learning more about Cambridgeshire. One suggestion is that maybe Eleanor came from Wisbech which later became part of Ely but I`ll have to wait and see what turns up.
Ellen Brewin; OND qtr. 1873 Leicester Vol-7A Pge-105. Age 62.
Burial; 13 Oct 1873 at Welford Road Cemetery. Address-62 Lower Royal East Street.
I agree with their points that the person who was the informant for her death either did not know her age or may have even had her door number mixed up with her age.
According to all of the censuses that she appeared in her birth year, on average, was somewhere between 1794-1801.
She died with the name Brewin, being her married name, so definitely did not marry Joseph Dixon.
Joseph was buried 12 Aug 1873 same details. I will now chase up his death GRO.
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Hi,
I have found the death GRO for Joseph Dixon on the familysearch.org website, having gotten nowhere at ancestry, and it would appear that yet again the person who has registered his death, as with his partner Ellen, has given the wrong age--62.
I think Bedforshire-boy on the Cambridgeshire boards is correct in saying that they have been registered with their house number (or someone has guessed the age)
Address for Joseph & Ellen; 62 Lower Royal East Street, Leicester.
Death GRO/-Joseph Dixon; JAS qtr. 1873 Leicester Vol-7A Pge-103. Age 62.
This ties in with the burial record found 12 Aug 1873 at Welford Road Cemetery.
In the 1851 & 1861 & 1871 censuses Joseph was consistent with his P.O.B being Essex and the 1861, 1871 reveal that he was born at Whalley Camp with a birth year of 1794/5 making him about 78 when he died. I believe that the enumerator misspelt/misheard his birth place--Whalley.
There is a place named Whalley in Lancashire but as he persisted with Essex I checked and there is no place called Whalley Camp.
However, there is a place called Great Warley in Essex a suburb of Brentwood. The chapel was next door to the Warley Barracks, Army.
The only baptism that I was able to find in this area for Joseph was the following which I think is our Joseph with a surname spelling variation, what do you think?
Christened; Joseph Dickson May 1795 at Great Warley, Essex. Parents--Moses & Ann.
A good possibility here that his Father was a soldier and maybe moved to Lancashire or Leicester with the Army. I will see what I can find with another search.
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Hi,
Following on from my searches with the last post I have found a marriage record, whom I believe, were the parents of Joseph Dixon/Dickson;
Moses Dickson, age 22, married Anne Shucksmith.
22 Nov 1787 at Killingholme, Lincolnshire.
That`s it today, catch up with you all soon.
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Hi Sal...
Just catching up.
I was open minded as to who would be entered as Louisa's father and bear in mind Ellen could say whoever she liked. If I remember correctly I think the newspaper report re the bigamy trial said witnesses saw them in the street " last July" (July 1864) so they had been seen together.
In the beginning and when trying to verify if Joseph Dixon had married Ellen I was guessing the reference to Walley, Essex, could be Warley Camp and had also found the baptism.... but hadn't got any further.
I did a bit more digging because on one census Joseph says he and Ellen were cousins? but I didn't find anything to prove that.
The other observations were: that Joseph was a widower and on the 1841 census (Piece 651 / Book 2 / Folio 11 /Page 16 - St Botolph, Lincoln),and next door is a James Gregory aged 30 yrs and a Grinder, not born in the county (Lincs). Then there is a Mary Dixon aged 85... I thought she might be his mother, which made me wonder re the baptism at Great Warley.
The interesting one in the1841 household is the 15 year old boy, it looks like the name is written Maynes - but, I believe his name is Magnus Dixon.
So, I don't want to lead you up the garden path...... but I think it is interesting, I know you will relate to the coincidences. :D
There is this marriage for Magnus Dixon
Parish Bracebridge, Lincolnshire - 13th Nov 1848
Joseph Dixon & Margaret Neal
Grooms father = Joseph & Brides father = Daniel
I can't find an original parish entry on Lincstothepast etc
Updated to add.... found the marriage record - http://www.rootschat.com/links/019vs/
Disappointed to see it is an old style marriage register entry, the GRO version must have names of the fathers? ???
I can't find the couple in 1851 but they are here in 1861.
1861 - Piece 2338 /Folio 14 /Page 21 - Vauxhall, Skirbeck, Boston, Lincolnshire
Magnus Dixon Head, aged 34 - Grinder - born Nottingham, Nottinghamshire.
Margaret Dixon Wife - Married - aged 27 - born Derbyshire, England
George Dixon -Son - Scholar - born Scarborough, Yorkshire, England
Margaret Dixon, - aged 7 - Scholar - born Billinghay, Lincolnshire.
Joseph Dixon, Son - aged 3 - Scholar Beverley, Yorkshire, England
Catherine Dixon , Daughter - - 0 1861 - born Spalding, Lincolnshire, England
Baptism - NOTTINGHAM St Mary - 26th Dec 1826
Magnus Dixon - parents Joseph & Mary DIXON - occupation Chimney Sweeper - abode Bloomsbury Place
There are a couple of newspaper reports for Magnus & Margaret Dixon.
7 June 1861 - Stamford Mercury - Margaret Dixon, wife of Magnus Dixon, scissor-grinder of Skirbeck, convicted of assault.
21 Sept 1867 - Maidstone Telegraph - Magnus Dixon, Scissor Grinder - Robbery from the person - committed for trial at Borough Sessions.
9 Nov 1867 - Maidstone Telegraph - Magnus Dixon , aged 40, Umbrella Maker - acquitted.
I cannot see any of the above 1861 family on other census.
The only other census that I can find Magnus on is in 1881.
1881 - RG11 /Piece 960 /Folio 51/Page 11 - Lodging House, 9, Groves Lane, Canterbury, Kent.
Magnus Dixon, widower, aged 51, Hawker - born Nottingham.
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Hi Dizziefish,
Aha, just when I thought I would post a recap for records that we need to find for Ellen Glover Brewin & her children to bring us all up to date another line of search appears, all good fun.
Ok, lets chase up the Dixon's & Gregory`s with the view at the end to turn back onto the Brewin family, that sound ok to you? That way we should, hopefully, have a sequenced line of relevant results for everyone to follow.
Louisa Dixon Barnes; I still think that her real Father was John Merchant but you are absolutely right in saying that she could have been Thomas`s Daughter as he lived local to her Mother, but this was a time when he was most probably courting Emma Taylor prior to marrying her? Its one of those family mysteries that will keep people guessing for a long time and never be resolved unless a descendant of Louisa`s, if apt, should appear and be able to say otherwise, but it sure makes searching this family interesting.
In my opinion Eleanor & Joseph Dixon lived together as a couple. She used his surname in the 1841 & 1871 censuses. 1871 stating that they were married, which they were not, but definitely not Cousins. Both dying at the same abode in 1873. Would you agree?
Her death & burial registered with the surname Brewin confirms to me that Ellen & Joseph had not gotten married together at all. The question is was one or both still married to `another` and that possibly be the reason that they did not get married?
Ellen had been married twice before meeting Joseph so no reason for him to have not been married prior to his relationship with Ellen.
Are you in agreement with me that I have found the correct marriage for Ellen to Thomas Glover on the 4 May 1812 at Loughborough?
Joseph or Ellen could have been in trouble with the law at some point during their relationship and been avoiding detection from another party, in regards to her surnames or marital status perhaps?
We need to find out what become of Ellen`s second Husband Benjamin Brewin and try to find an earlier marriage for Joseph if we can.
Both Joseph & Ellen were consistent with their places of birth, I know that does not prove that they were telling the truth but the likelihood that they were is fairly strong to me.
As you know I have posted a request for a look-up for Eleanor Gregory`s baptism 1794-1801 (going by the censuses) for Ely, Cambridgeshire which has yet to yield a positive result or for someone with access to the records to find the thread and give assistance, if not then at some point I`ll have to track down where to purchase a CD-Rom parish register to try and help find her parents etc... but I`ll save that task for a rainy day.
Joseph Dixon;-between us I think that we have tracked down his correct birth place of Warley, Essex. Birth year 1794-1796 going by the censuses.
There was a Little Warley & a Great Warley in existence but I think the enumerator has mistaken this as Whalley. I feel that the correct baptism record has been found May 1795 Great Warley, Essex but would like to be able to see more of the parish registers to crosscheck or fully confirm this as fact. Parents Moses & Ann Dickson.
There was a place called Warley`s Camp in Essex as detailed at the History Online website which was part of the Army Camp initially based on the Common before it became the location for the Barracks.
Joseph`s Father may have been a Soldier? Involved in the fights; American War of Independence; Napoleonic Wars; 1st Anglo-Burmese War, amongst others? Thus, may explain Moses & Ann moving from Lincolnshire and possibly other areas yet to be revealed if the right couple?
Yes Dizziefish, it had not gone unnoticed by me that there was a James Gregory living as Joseph & Ellen`s immediate neighbour in the 1841 census, with the same profession as Joseph-Grinder. A Brother or Cousin to Ellen ? Working alongside Joseph? Joseph may well have been a widower here or just wanted to give another reason for his living in the same household as Ellen, we need to see what becomes of a marriage search for him.
Mary Dixon age 85. Mother maybe, was the Father widowed and remarried? A possible Aunt or in-law perhaps? I am pleased that you worked out the name for Magnus---I thought it was a misspelling of Martha ha ha!
Good work for the results that you have found for Magnus, I will have more time tomorrow evening to go through them but for now I need to dash for work, sorry about that. Well done Dizziefish
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Did you notice the witnesses were Ellen's jnr's sister and brother in law when Magnus married?
Can confirm the marriage too with records I have, father Joseph to Magnus
I must admit, I kept thinking about them being seen together from the newspaper result and looked back at dates.
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Hi Willsy.... :)
Do you mean the Boswell's ?.... I looked for a marriage, please don't keep me in suspense ;D
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Doh... I see now, I was/am confused, the marriage for Elizabeth Brewin was to Alfred Boswell and the marriage witness for Magnus' marriage is Albert.... which might explain why I couldn't find an Albert Boswell on census.... good job you noticed Willsy, almost sure they must be the same man?
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This one you found
29th Aug 1842 St Botolph, Lincoln - Elizabeth Glover Brewen to Alfred Boswell
Brides father: Benjamin Brewen
Grooms father: Zachariah Boswell
ALSO 1871 Margaret Dixon I reckon with Catherine matching 1861 and further children Magnus c1867, Mary c1863, Julia c1865
Brook Street Wilson Court Lodging House, Chatham, Kent
RG10/909/59/9
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Suddenly thought, have you now got a copy of Benjamin and Eleanor's marriage ?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJJQ-9ZG
have you used this yet ?
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Photoduplication_Services
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Another little gem
James Bruin
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 13 Mar 1826
Christening Place: HORNCASTLE,LINCOLN,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Benjmn. Bruin
Mother's Name: Eleanor
online, Benjamin stocking maker, Leicester
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Good find Willsy re Margaret Dixon and children in 1871 in Chatham.... Margaret now says she was born Lincolnshire and if Magnus junior was born in Kent where is his birth registration?
It would be great if we could get hold of copy of Benjamin & Eleanor's marriage at Sculcoates, at least it should confirm if Ellen was a widow.
Just noticed your post re James Bruin... someone else to follow up :D
Here is the link to the baptism at Horncastle = http://www.rootschat.com/links/019w5/
Back tomorrow
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from page 3 on thread
St Margaret's Leicester baptism
BRUIN JAMES JAMES GLOVER & FANNY 1856 30-Jan
He seems to go between Leicester and Lincs
Baptism of dau Charlotte
James Occ grinder 10 Sparrow Lane
Charlotte Brewin
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 10 Jul 1853
Christening Place: St. Swithin's, Lincoln, Lincoln, England
Birth Date: 26 Jun 1853
Father's Name: James Glover Brewin
Mother's Name: Fanny
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Hi,
Just to let you know that I have been following your posts and that I am currently searching for records for James Glover Brewin, getting familiar with the extended Brewins as they are new to me.
James & Fanny had the following children; James; Charlotte; Eleanor & Samuel.
Looks like James senior died by year 1860.
Eleanor married John Smith Deans.
29 Sep 1873 at Great Grimsby, St James, Lincoln.
Fathers; James Brewin & Richard Deans.
James Glover Brewin jnr married Louisa Jack.
1879 St Andrews, Great Grimsby, Lincoln.
Fathers; James Glover Brewin & William Jack.
That's about it for this evening as I have much more to chase up for this family.
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Hi,
I have found Fanny Brewin in the 1861 census, age 37, charwoman, widow, with her children Eleanor & James & Samuel. Plus, her Niece Ellen West age 5 born 1856 Lincoln--her parents would be James`s Sister Sarah & William.
I have been looking, but yet to find, a marriage entry for Fanny & James or one for her marrying someone else after the 1861 census, I`ll keep digging. So far I have not been able to pin down James death record but will try again shortly.
Son James Glover Brewin.
Born JFM 1856 Leicester Vol-7A Pge-165. Baptised 30 Jan 1856 St Margaret's, Leicester.
He married Louisa Jack 1879 Great Grimsby, Lincolnshire.
1871 census-- James was on a fishing vessel-Columbia as a Boy, age 16, single. Based in Lincolnshire.
1881 census--He and Louisa lived at Trinity Square, Great Grimsby, Lincs. No kids, both age 25. Louisa born Hull, Yorkshire 1856. James a fisherman. Vessel-28. Piece-3272. Pge-11.
1891 census-James & Louisa, both age 35, no kids, lived at 38 Wellington Street, Great Grimsby, Lincs. Fisherman. R.G.12/2614. Vessel 17. Folio-118.
1901 census--Louisa Brewin, age 45, born 1856 Hull, stated that she was married to James, Inmate in the Grimsby Union Workhouse. Piece-3096. Folio-151. Schedule-1.
1911 census---Louisa Brewin, age 56, widow, Housekeeper, born 1855 Hull, was living in residence with Charles Nathaniel White, 49y, Head, Labourer, widow born 1862 Grimsby.
Plus, Nephew George Henry Green age 20 born 1891 Hull. Vessel 12. Piece-19958. Class RG14.
Louisa Jack
Born; 1 Oct 1855 at 9 Mason Street, Hull, Yorkshire.
Parents; William Jack & Frances Charlotte Ball.
They lived 1861 at Livery stables, Sculcoates, Yorkshire. RG9/3581.
1871 at Providence Place, Hull, Yorkshire. RG10/4784. Mother a widow and a Harpist, not seen that one before. More Yorkshire connections.
Louisa married Charles Nathaniel White 17 Aug 1919 St Andrew, Great Grimsby, Lincolnshire.
She died Louisa White 1935 in Grimsby. Charles 1947 Grimsby.
Charles first wife was Rose Mary Winn.
I will search for the missing data and James & Fanny`s other children.
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NBI has a death of a James Bruin age 32 St Mary Horncastle, PR's as Foundry Street with death of Mary Bruin, same address, infant same day, 13 Sep 1858 Horncastle.
Just found a short line in the paper announcing the deaths and Mary was his daughter surname as Bruin.
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Have found Mary's baptism Horncastle 9th September 1858, James father, no mother Foundry Street, tinman!
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Samuel's baptism
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N1SD-JMK
In the register it states father deceased
Eleanor marriage to John Smith Deans
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NF31-V44
Eleanor 1871
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VB8J-7SV
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Hi Willsy,
Thank you that James death looks promising do you have the death GRO for him please?
Ellen, great, I will chase her up after James & family. I will review the kids of James & Ellen and order a birth cert; for one of them so that we can learn the Mothers maiden name.
I have spent the past hour trawling the web for Grimsby shipping disasters etc.. tons of them, the poor men, I think Louisa`s Husband being a fisherman might have died at sea? If so it may explain why Louisa, in the 1901 census was in the Workhouse, she stated that she was the Wife of James, not a widow--so he was elsewhere or she was hoping for his return----missing, prison, what do you reckon? I`ve got lots of downloads to go through shortly.
Good news time, the certs have arrived
Florence Columbius Murphy.
Born; 23 Nov 1872 Rose Mary Lane, Huddersfield, County of York.
Father Martin Murphy a Mariner. Mother Ellen Murphy nee McGregor.
Registered; 29/11/1872 Martin Murphy. Registrar Johnathon Brook.
Certainly the correct record, well done everyone. Another name change for Ellen.
Florence Welch
Born 13 Sep 1890. Address 155 Brook, Chatham, Kent.
Father Robert Welch a Hawker. Mother Elizabeth Welch nee Marchant.
Registered 9 Oct 1890 Elizabeth. Registrar J. Whitehead.
Christened; 23 Sep 1890 St Mary`s Church. Address 155 Brook, Chatham, Kent.
Parents; Elizabeth & Robert Welsh, he a Labourer.
Unbelievable!! Fantastic!!
I had viewed both records a couple of times in the past and pushed them to one side as Robert may or may not have passed away and then Elizabeth had gone on to set up home with Thomas Brown etc.. but not until Dizziefish brought them both up again with the 1891 census address did I decide to take the plunge and order the cert; so pleased that I did.
Robert Welsh did not die before 1890 and he and Elizabeth both ended up in Chatham, Kent together as a couple.
Either Elizabeth & Robert`s Daughter Louisa born 1884 in Leicester or Daughter Florence born 1890 Chatham became Obinia/Althenia who ended up living with Mother Elizabeth in the 1901 & 1911 censuses in Chatham with a new identity, which one is yet to be proven but the findings in this thread is bringing the possibility of resolving this matter closer.
And Daughter Ellen stating that Robert was a Hawker on her marriage records was correct. This result is leading me to believe that there was no Mr Smith involved in Elizabeth`s life at all, the alledged Father of a couple more children because she was still with Robert.
Query=where was Robert & Louisa & Florence in the 1891 censuses?
Thank you Dizziefish & Willsy.
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Well, that was a surprise! and another name - McGregor, I wonder where that came from?
I am really pleased that the Florence Welch certificate was the correct one! so many names, twists and turns and I feel sure you have more to discover ;D
A few finds re James & Fanny's family....
Baptism - St Botolph, Lincoln - 22nd Feb 1847
Joseph, son of James & Frances BREWEN - abode, Old Factory - Scissor Grinder.
Burial - St Botolph, Lincoln - 4th March 1847
Joseph BREWEN - abode Factory Passage - aged 9 days.
It looks like Samuel is in Hull in 1871
1871 - RG10; Piece: 4785; Folio: 96; Page: 32 - Ragged School, Sculcoates, Hull
I had also seen the 1871 for Ellen - interesting occupation.
1871 - RG10 / 3412 /Folio 95 /Page10 - White Hall Yd, King Edward Street, Grimsby, Lincolnshire.
Will mention this find which I think may be related to Benjamin Brewen.. brother of Ellen (Glover Brewin/ Barnes/Marchant etc) but needs more investigation as there isn't a marriage original anywhere online to check....
Marriage St Paul in the Bail, Lincoln - 25th Dec 1850
Benjamin Glover BREWEN & Salome SMITH
Fathers - Glover & William
On the 1851 census it does appear to say Benjamin is married? - (HO107 Piece 2089 /Folio 296 /Page13) but they never appear together. Benjamin spent his life with Susannah Mattock, maybe that's why they never married?
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I think Benjamin and Salome are on a census and Benjamin and Sarah at the same time, looked after you found Benjamin early on if I remember right.
Have got a ref for the marriage and his father is named as Glover.
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Hi Willsy & Dizziefish,
Today I have ordered the birth certs; for Louisa Welch 1884 Leicester, Daughter of Robert & Betsy and Charlotte Glover Brewin 1853 Lincoln Daughter of James & Fanny.
Well done to you both with the Brewin findings, you are right James snr was travelling between Leicester & Lincoln that will help in tracking down his death GRO.
Thank you for the baptism details for Samuel, I can see that you have the right record but are you able to tell me if his age was listed please?
If his Father was registered as being deceased in the baptism register then the death details found for James Bruin 13 Sep 1858 at Horncastle is in question unless the child was baptised later than his year of birth-----I could have the wrong birth GRO which I will recheck next?
B/GRO-Samuel Brewin JFM 1884 Caistor, Lincs Vol-7A Pge-466
Unless James was not deceased at all and he and Fanny had just parted company?
None of the downloads of `fishery & sea` deaths that I viewed in Grimsby apply to James Brewin and for more detailed records one has to contact the relevant archive centres & libraries etc.. another task for that `rainy day`.
Ooh, another child with you finding Joseph and the poor mite died how sad. Good work. That occupation of Scissor Grinder keeps popping up doesn`t it, passed on through the family one imagines.
Have either of you come across a baptism record for James & Fanny`s Daughter Eleanor/Ellen?
Ok, I am just off to search for more records for Fanny & James children---aided with your findings for Samuel & Ellen. Back later.
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Think I must have got Benjamin all wrong, do remember spending an age online looking for the marriage, apologies!
I was wondering about the baptism for Fanny, remember only finding James baptism in Leicester at the time and checking Kilbride and Murphy in case. No age for Samuel I'm afraid.
Really pleased that the certificates have been the right ones too :)
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Hi Willsy,
The marriage for Benjamin may yet be proved to be correct and if not for him then another close family member-that name Glover keeps standing out and quite common with this family.
I wonder what was so important or endearing for the family members to want to keep using the name, passing it on to their offspring?
I have just been through all the available records for James G Brewin senior at ancestry and coming up with very little, same death details that you are finding. I need to crosscheck with other websites to see if they have anything new for him.
I was unlucky with his Daughter Ellen in trying to find her B/GRO but again I will check out other websites for her also.
Joseph Bruen B/GRO-JFM 1847 Lincoln Vol-14 Pge-491
D/GRO-JFM 1847 Lincoln Vol-14 Pge-392.
Just moving on to Samuel now.
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Hi Sal...
I have looked for Ellen Brewen (& variants) at the moment I am thinking maybe her birth wasn't registered.
I will leave the marriage for Benjamin & Salome for now but I reckon I have found Salome's burial record at Luddington St Oswald, Lincolnshire in Aug 1869 - aged 39.
Deaths Sep 1869
Brewen Salome - aged 37 - Goole 9c 375
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Hi Dizziefish,
You could be right about Ellen`s birth not being registered at all but I will follow up with another search tomorrow just to double check and if no luck then move on with Samuel---as James & Fanny moved about a bit perhaps the event was registered somewhere between Leicester and Lincoln?
Dizziefish those are good results that you have found for Salome and Lincolnshire certainly ties in with this family. Crikey she was young when she died. As we extend our searches across the Brewin clan we may yet find another Benjamin Brewin to add to the mix that may have been associated with Salome. Salome sounds French or Italian to me?
Anyway, I am off for the rest of this evening but will be back tomorrow.
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Burial for Fanny Bruin.... same address as daughter Ellen is living at in 1871 - mentioned in reply #106
28th Sept 1870 - Fanny BRUIN - aged 47 - St Mary & St James, Great Grimsby, Lincolnshire. (P/R's = White Hall Yard, Grimsby)
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Hi,
Dizziefish great work in finding the burial record for Fanny Bruin and yes you are right -she died at the same abode as Daughter Ellen in 1871c. So young, I`ll track down her death GRO.
Salome Smith
Thank you for the burial record for Salome Smith, how awful for the poor woman to have died of smallpox and end her days in a cattle shed, I wonder if that was because she was destitute or some form of quarantine, owned by Mrs West------related to James`s Wife Louisa?
A gypsy, well that would certainly fit in with the lifestyle of Benjamin Brewin senior travelling to and fro, a fair chance that she may have married his Son, we need the marriage GRO in order to obtain this cert; then we will know for sure where her Benjamin came from/family.
Samuel Brewin
I am not sure that was him in the 1871 census in Hull, Yorkshire as the place of birth was for Leicester, there were a couple of other Samuel Brewin`s born about 1860 Leicester so could be one of them, Fanny`s Son was born in Lincolnshire but I will keep the details to one side for the time being.
I think this Samuel married Mary Eliza Finn 1884 St Andrew, Grimsby.
GRO-1884 JFM Caistor, Lincs; Vol-7A Pge-869
Now I know the marriage entry states that Samuel`s Father was Benjamin Brewin but if you have found the correct death record for James Glover Brewin`s burial, along with Daughter Mary, 13 Sep 1858 it is quite possible that Fanny had a relationship with a Benjamin Brewin hence Samuel`s birth.
Being a married woman & a widow she christened Samuel with her Husbands name James Brewin? I have ordered Samuel`s birth cert; today to see if that yields any further clues as to who his real Father was.
If the right Samuel marrying Mary then he died in the North sea 1 Jan 1885 according to other tree members at ancestry. I have sent a pm to one for further details, if possible.
Great Britain Deaths & Burials, 1778-1988
Death; S. Brewin 1 Jan 1885 at sea, Great Britain. Age 24.
Occupation; 2nd Hand, Merchant Marine.
Source; familysearch.org
Indexing project no-B01719-4. GS film no-1483317
I am again trawling through newspapers etc.. to try and find out about his death, boat accident whilst keeping an eye out for anything related to James Glover Brewin?; maybe the ancestry member can shed more light on this event.
His Sister Charlotte may have died; AMJ 1860 Lincoln Vol-7A Pge-295.
I will move on with Sister Ellen next.
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Hi Sal,
I can't see a burial for Charlotte at Lincoln St Botolph or Horncastle but will try elsewhere.
There is a newspaper report on her death - Lincolnshire Chronicle 1st June 1860
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Hi Dizziefish,
Thank you.
I have just finished reading about her death in the newspaper, looks like being the right Charlotte. her Mother a widow coinciding with Fanny`s details for that time period. We will know more when Samuel`s birth cert; arrives as to whether James was recorded as being deceased, if the nominated father, and where she was living then.
The poor woman looks to have lost 3 kids and a Husband, fortunately she would not have been around for Samuel's death in 1885.
I am off for some well earned sleep, catch you later.
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Hi,
The Eleanor Brewin who married John Smith Deans is included in a few newspaper articles as follows;
Lincolnshire Chronicle 12 Jun 1874
Ellen Smith Dean, abode Whitehall Yard, Grimsby took Elizabeth Smith to Court for stealing her Husband`s cloth shirt on the Friday 29th. Elizabeth was found guilty and sent to prison for 1 day.
Lincolnshire Chronicle 24 Dec 1875
John Smith Deans was charged with assaulting Ellen and bound over to keep the peace.
Lincolnshire Chronicle 1 & 29 Oct 1875
Ellen Smith Deans & Ellen Hewitt, both prostitutes, charged with stealing a watch, gold guard & ring from William Greenless at Great Grimsby on the 26th Sep. They were found not guilty.
Lincolnshire Chronicle 21 Jan 1876
Ellen Smith Dean alias Brewin, abode Whitehall Yard. Stabbed in the arm.
Detleft Eleason from Norway was charged but claimed that a Russian had committed the offence. Detleft had to pay a penalty of £2.00 and 16 shillings costs or in default of payment one months hard labour.
Hull Packet, Hull East Riding, Yorkshire. 13 Jul 1877
Elizabeth Homer; Elizabeth Marriott alias Towers & Ellen Smith Deans, married were all charged with and pleaded guilty to running disorderly houses at Great Grimsby. Verdict; Guilty each received 3 months prison with hard labour.
Criminal Record; 3 months prison, hard labour and bound by recognizances of one surety of £50.00 to be of good behaviour for 12 months from the expiration of such sentence.
Gee, Fanny & James Brewin family members that survived did not have an easy life.
I haven`t been able to pin Ellen & John down in the censuses or death records, so many same named people, so I am going to put them on hold for the time being and catch up with James Glover Brewin`s Brother Benjamin next.
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There's a record for Samuel under deaths at sea, vessel name Advance, ship was from Grimsby and looks like the crew died in the North Sea.
Bit slow as I didn't get the message that there were some more posts :)
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Joseph who died 1847, have his burial St Boltolph Mar 4th, 9days abode Factory Passage.
Whilst checking landed on the wrong page and found a Mary Ann Dixon burial 1838 May 15th age 37 of St Boltolph
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Hi Willsy,
Thank you for the information. Ooh, I wonder if Mary was Joseph Dixons Wife?
Off to catch up with Benjamin Glover Brewin.
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Hi,
I have been working and now with a couple of days off I can resume my searches. The birth cert; for Charlotte Brewin was refunded as the GRO office could not find the record so I am awaiting the birth cert; for her Brother Samuel to arrive which may turn out for the best as we will learn if James was deceased or not in 1860.
I have caught up with Benjamin Glover Brewin & Susannah Matlock, more records to search for them both.
Sister Sarah Glover Brewin & Husband William West I am now familiar with and have found the relevant records for 1841 & 1851 & 1861 censuses.
Sarah died somewhere between the 1851 & 1861 census, hence Daughter Ellen stopping with Aunt Fanny Brewin at Taylor Street, Lincoln in 1861.
William West, a Hawker & widow, & Son William in the 1861 census were lodging at Middle Street, Great Driffield, Yorkshire. After that too many same named people so I`ll follow them up another time. I don`t know what become of their Daughter Mary Ann after 1851.
Next I need to catch up with Elizabeth Glover Brewin & Alfred Boswell.
Louisa Welsh
Her birth cert; has arrived, as follows; Born 12 Oct 1884.
Abode; 2 Abbey Street, Leicester---around the corner from Royal East Street.
Father; Robert Welch an Iron Moulder. He registered her birth 25 Oct 1884.
Mother Elizabeth Welch nee Merchant.
I will conduct a search for Robert tomorrow to see if I can pin him down in Maidstone, Kent, location as stated by Dr B in the 1906 report; and also follow up with Willsy`s finding the 1891 census for a Robert in Islington, also a moulder, to see what happened to Robert after Florence was born 13 Sep 1890 in Chatham, Kent. He and Betsy separated as a couple somewhere between Sep 1890 & 1891 census date.
The thing is where were Daughters Ellen, Florence & Louisa in the 1891 censuses?
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Have Susannah Mattock burial, address as 1901 census
Welford Road uN 374
MATTOCKS SUSANNAH 1902 JAN 16 65 10 WOOD STREET LEICESTER
The blast burial before that was 1870 for this grave all for the Watson family, but they are all common burials
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Hi Willsy,
Thank you very much for the burial details, I had difficulty finding her death entry at ancestry but on FindMyPast following on with your burial result I found it;
D/GRO-Susannah Mattock JFM 1902 Leicester. Vol-7A Pge-117
I was then able to find Susan Matlock & Ben Brewin in the 1901 census living at 10 Wood Street, Leicester. Ben was enumerated as a Cutlery Grinder and widow & Susan, single, Domestic Servant Housekeeper. I wonder why they never married? Class-R.G.13 Piece-2987 Folio-145. Pge 24.
I think, that providing Susannah did not marry a Mattock/Matlock and inherit the surname that way then she was born the Daughter of Alice Mattock who was found in the censuses;
1841 census-Orchard Street, Leicester, Book-15. Folio-44. Pge-36. Class-H.O.107.
Alice, a widow, with Daughters Mary, Susanna, Eliza & Ann.
1851 census-23 Orchard Street, Vessel-51. Schedule-109. Class-H.O.107. Piece-2089. Pge 26. Alice, Susanna, 20y & single & Ann.
All working in the seamer & stitcher occupations.
1861 census-Benjamin Brewin, 29y a Carter/Cutler & Susannah Matlock, 30y, living at;
37 Royal East Street, Leicester.
1871 census-Benjamin Brewin, 38y, Tin plate worker & Susannah Brewin, 40y a Seamstress, living at 39 Royal East Street, Leicester.
1881 census-Benjamin Brewin, 46y, Hawker & Susanna Brewin, 49y, Hawker, living at 11 Brook Street, Manthorpe-cum-little-Gonerby, Lincolnshire.
1891 census-Benjamin, 55y & Susan, 57y, Brewin living at 16 Wood Street off Royal East Street.
Benjamin Brewin
Died; AMJ 1910 Leicester Vol-7A Pge-103
CHR/-19 Nov 1831 Barton-on-Humber, Lincolnshire. Parents Eleanor Gregory & Benjamin Brewin.
May have married 25 Dec 1850 St Paul-in-the-Bail, Lincoln Salome Smith? I will order this cert; next.
The only 1841 census that I could find which fitted the details of this Benjamin was;
Leicester Street, Sleaford. Book-12. Class-H.O.107. Piece 622. Pge 1.
Benjamin Brewin age 10, born Lincolnshire. Occupation a Sweep. In residence with; John Foster; William Smith; William Nichols, all Sweeps.
1851 census-Benjamin Brewin, age 19, working as a Rail Labourer living with his Mother & stepfather, siblings at Burley`s Lane, Leicester.
Aside from his Wives birth details to find and the marriage cert; to arrive that pretty much leaves Benjamin`s journey completed so I will continue on with Alfred & Elizabeth Boswell.
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I spent last night trying to look at missing 1891 (Bet and Rob's), would it help if you gave where you thought Ellen was? am getting nowhere!
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Hi Sal & Willsy..... :)
I keep having a little search when I can.
Willsy.... please could you see if there is a burial for this Louisa? maybe the reason why she hasn't been found in 1891?
Deaths Dec 1884
Welch Louisa-0-Leicester 7a 129
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Welford Road
WELCH LOUISA 1884 OCT 27 14DAYS ABBEY STREET SAINT MARGARET uR 946
The next burial is 10 years ahead, all common burials
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Louisa Welsh
Her birth cert; has arrived, as follows; Born 12 Oct 1884.
Abode; 2 Abbey Street, Leicester---around the corner from Royal East Street.
Father; Robert Welch an Iron Moulder. He registered her birth 25 Oct 1884.
Mother Elizabeth Welch nee Merchant.
BINGO ;D
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Hi Willsy, that was quick ! :D... well done and thanks for looking.... sad about Louisa :'(
As Louisa's birth certificate mentions Abbey Street, Leicester - this is a little bit more on Robert......
Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury Saturday, July 24, 1886
A Deserter - Robert Welch, moulder, lodging in Abbey Street, was charged with being a deserter from the 6th West York Regiment since May 16 - he surrendered himself, but now stated that he was not the man. - He answered the description published in the Gazette, and was remanded until Friday.
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Hi Dizzifish, nice find yourself, he slowly keeps popping up ;D
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Hello,
You 2 are blooming` marvellous!!! ;D Fantastic findings Willsy & Dizziefish. ;D
I`ll follow on with reference to your results shortly but firstly I wanted to post the details of Samuel Brewin`s birth.
Samuel Brewin 4 Jun 1860.
Abode; 4 Dixon's Court, Lincoln.
Father---NONE listed. Mother Fanny Brewin NO maiden name given.
Registered by Fanny Brewin 21 Jun 1860.
CHR/-Samuel Brewin 1 Jul 1860 St Paul-in-the-Bail, Lincoln. Mother Fanny. Father James deceased.
Samuel died 1 Jan 1885, age 24 in the North Sea, a 2nd Hand in the Merchant Marines.
I believe that you were correct with your finding the burial & newspaper details for James & Mary Bruin, that this man was the Husband/partner of Fanny.
Buried; 13 Sep 1858 at Horncastle, East Lindsay District, Lincolnshire. Address; Foundry Street.
James age 32. I`ll try and track down his or Mary`s death GRO to order the cert;
When Samuel married Mary Eliza Flinn he recorded his father as being Benjamin Brewin. He and Mary married 1884 St Andrew, Great Grimsby.
All the above locations are places that we know Fanny & James frequented. In my opinion, James died in 1858 and Fanny had a brief relationship with a Benjamin Brewin, possibly James`s Brother, although I am aware that there were other Benjamin`s born of the same/similar time period.
A Brief relationship, because James died Sep 1858 and Samuel was born Jun 1860 and Fanny was living as a widowed woman in the 1861 census at Lincoln with some of her children and Niece.
If Samuel`s real Father was Benjamin, Brother of James, could that be why he and Susannah Matlock never married? Samuel was informed of his real Father`s details and recorded him in his 1884 marriage entry, could be that others were also aware of his having a different Father?
What do you both think?
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Got to admit I have not chased the siblings as much once you were on the case of the extended family but go with your thoughts, especially after the marriage. I have been trying to find Flo, Jo and Alf with no success whatsoever but did wonder about the J P Kilbride c 1869 Born Bradford living in Lincoln 1911 married to a tattoo artist. It is one I haven't dug into fully yet.
Have you come across it?
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Hi Willsy,
I agree with you about the 1911 census as being a good possibility for Joseph Kilbride. It certainly would make sense with them both being artistes.
I am catching up with the rest of this thread and the excellent results that you and Dizziefish have found.
**I meant to add that one of the reasons I am chasing up the extended family of Ellen Glover Brewin, other than getting the handle on them, is the possibility that Ellen or her Daughter Florence Columbius Murphy may have been living with or local to the Brewins/Dixons etc...
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Am with you there, the mothers are never too far so I was hoping Ellen was with Florence and as for Nunkie, just can't find a combination!
Meant to check Florence's daughter at the address 1911 to compare with Joseph, have you beat me to it?
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Hi Willsy,
No I haven`t beaten you to it, ha ha ha. I have tracked down the 1891 census that you picked up on for Robert Welsh in London and I must say it does look promising. I have been tracking down birth entries for Robert Welsh`s, there are a few of them with surname spelling variations, similar ages that that record could apply to but the POB & Job certainly `fit` my Robert. I have quite a bit more that I want to chase up for him tomorrow then I will be able to address your findings properly, try and tie things in a bit more.
In the morning I will order the marriage cert; for Benjamin Brewin & Salome Smith, I decided against ordering the death cert; for Louisa at the moment as we have her burial details to hand-great work---at least I now know that she definitely was not Obinia/Althenia Welsh/Smith.
Off for a cuppa, back tomorrow.
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Hello... :)
Hi Sal, it was a shame the GRO couldn't find Charlotte's birth certificate, as that should mention Fanny's maiden name. (but then, why wasn't it given on Samuel's birth certificate? )
Was this the reference you gave ? if you feel at some point you want to try again it might be worth ordering it from Lincoln registration office?
Births Sep 1853
BRUEN Charlotte Glover - Lincoln 7a 409
http://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/residents/births-marriages-deaths-and-civil-partnerships/certificates/
" You can apply for a birth certificate over the phone, post or via our online payment system."
Now we know that Louisa died shortly after her birth in 1884 she isn't Obinia/Althenia so we can at least eliminate Louisa.
Ellen is more difficult as she was born before Robert Welsh married Elizabeth/Betsy in 1882... I wonder what surname she was registered under?
I am more puzzled as to what happened to Florence, I have tried to see if she was with other family, but one of the problems being, the family were travellers and they are not easy to track. Florence would have been 6 months and 23 days old on census night 1891, but I can't see an obvious death for her or find her on the census.
Just keep chipping away and we will see what turns up ;D
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Hi Dizziefish.
Thank you for the information. I have spent a bit of time collating details for all of Elizabeth Merchant`s children, seemed to take forever but pleased that I now have all of the details in one place.
Today I have ordered Joseph Bruen`s birth cert; instead of Benjamin`s marriage record--I will get to it eventually ha ha; Joseph 1847 Lincoln as we know his parents were together for his christening, so hopefully we should learn of his Mother`s maiden name.
Another researcher has ordered a death cert; for Florence Welsh/Welch 1894 Chatham, Kent, age 4 which might be the Daughter of Robert & Betsy Welsh.
The Dr B` 1906 report said that Ellen Welsh was alias McCarthy. She married 3 times listing Robert Welsh as her Father-----he could well have been her step-father. When she died her birth details were 7 Feb 1879 Hammersmith, London.
Tomorrow I will return to searching for Robert senior and also adding to Elizabeth Glover Brewin but I am now bushed and off air for the evening. Thank you for your help.
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I can can confirm that little Florence sadly died on the 24th April 1895. The address on her death certificate is given as 4, Cross Street, Chatham. Father Robert Welch, labourer, Mother Elizabeth Welch, present at her death. Cause of death - Cerebral convulsions.
This confirms that Obinia Smith was neither Louisa or Florence.
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Hello..... :)
Thanks for letting us know how the search for little Florence ended..... very sad.
I had seen that death registration but as we couldn't find Florence in 1891, I was thinking she belonged to another family - which goes to show you can't beat having certificates.... it was a Goldsmith family living at 4, Cross St in 1891.
So it is back to the drawing board re Obinia :'(
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I did check the 1891 census for that address also.
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Hi all
Thanks for the update too, quite a journey Betsy had in life.
Was just wondering if you could put up some details for Obinia to date, know it would help me as we have covered so much ground!
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Hi,
Welcome on board Loopyloo. All I have for Obinia/Althenia is;
1901 census
2 Clover Alley, Chatham. R.G.13/727. Vessel-28. Schedule-231; Pge-34.
Obinia was enumerated as Rene/Peony Arnold? Can`t make that out properly. 13y, Daughter, Born 1888 Millwall, London.
She was living with her Mother and step-father; Elizabeth & Edwin Arnold along with her half-siblings.
1911 census,
6 Coronation Cottages, Manor Street, Old Brompton, Chatham.
Althenia Welch, Daughter, 24y, single, Laundress. Born Notting Hill, London. 1887
Living with her Mother Elizabeth, age 50 & Frederick Arthur Oliver, age 29 & half-brother Thomas Arthur Arnold. Elizabeth had parted from Edwin Arnold and claimed to have been married 9 years and had 1 child.
1906 Dr B Report.
Supposedly after parting from Robert; " The Mother next cohabited with a Hawker named Smith, by whom she had 3 children-------one of which was Obinia".
"On 26th ultimo, the Mother was released from prison after a 3 months term. During her absence, the sister Obinia looked after the other children and at the time of the enquiry the Mother was prosecuting her for disposing of her goods, but the outcome is not stated."
That is all I have for her, it would be wonderful to be able to reveal her true identity.
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I was wondering what you made of this death
ALMENIA E SMITH
Birth year 1887
Age 78
Death quarter 4
Death year 1965
District MAIDSTONE
County Kent
Volume 5F
Page 610
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Hi Willsy,
Wow! That looks hopeful. Well done. I am off out shortly but this evening I will see if I can match Almenia with other records and another family--if not able to do so I will order the cert; tomorrow.
Are you able to track down the death entry for Robert Welsh, senior, a moulder in Islington for me please, I am sure I have it somewhere, if we do not track him down as living elsewhere then it could be a good possibility that you found the right record.
Back later.
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Hi,
Could not resist checking the details for Amelia E Smith---sorry, but not the right person.
Almenia Eleanor Colegate was born 1887 West Malling, Kent.
Married Charles Arthur Smith 1908 Malling, Kent. Vol-2A Pge-634. 3 Qtr .
1911 census they were living with their Son Reginald Charles Smith at;
6 Blacklands Cottages, Damb Clock Road, East Malling, Kent. R.G.14/3970. Vessel-8.
Charles was born and CHR/ in Malling 1887. Parents; John & Alice. He died 1939 in Maidstone.
Well done Willsy, at least we can eliminate this Lady. Thank you.
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I wondered about the Colgate birth, was the only one I came back too but it was getting late
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Hi,
The birth cert; has arrived for Joseph Bruen;
Joseph Bruen born 21 Feb 1847 St. Botolph, Lincoln.
Father-- James Bruen a Grinder.
Mother-- Fanny Bruen Nee Norwich or Norwick.
Registered by the Mother of 2 Dixon's, St. Botolph. 1 March 1847.
*I`ll assume that Dixon's was Dixon`s Court going by previous search results.
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Hello... :)
No wonder we couldn't find a marriage, James is registered under Glover.
Marriages Sept 1845
GLOVER James Brewing - Leicester 15 133
NORWICH Fanny - Leicester 15 133
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Love this working together ;D
Entry No.314, AUG 11, 1845, after Banns
JAMES BREWING GLOVER, full age, bach. GRINDER?, of BELGRAVE GATE, s. of BENJAMIN BREWIN, TINMAN
FANNY NORWICH, full age, sp. LACE HAND, of BELGRAVE GATE, d. of JOHN NORWICH, WOOL WASHER
Wits: CHARLES MARTIN, MARY MARTIN
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Me too ;D
I was hoping you would come up with the marriage details :D
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I was secretly hoping it was St Margaret as I went for the disc ;D
Do you think these are the witnesses?
Entry No.186, JUL 24, 1843, after Banns
CHARLES MARTIN, full age, bach. TAILOR, of PLOUGH YARD, s. of JOHN MARTIN, TAILOR
MARY NORWICH, full age, sp. of HUMBERSTONE GATE, d. of JOHN NORWICH, SAWYER
Wits: CHARLES DOLBY, ELIZABETH FISHER?
I can see 1841 Dolby and 2 Norwich/k girls, Mary and Elizabeth
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I would think Mary is Fanny's sister.... but, a change of occupation for father John Norwich.
I did try and find Fanny in 1841 but I can't see her. There doesn't seem to be many Norwich or variants in Leicestershire?
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Same here Dizzifish with searching, had a look at Glover Baps. St Margaret
GLOVER ELLEN JAMES BREWIN & FANNY 1849 26-Dec
don't think we have this one
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No, I don't think we have found that one.... I wonder why the name switch? they just liked to make things complicated ;D
Births Dec 1849
GLOVER Ellen Brewin - Leicester 15 107
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I was just reading through the thread for James and was just about to look for Ellen's birth, nice one :)
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Bit forward, have we got this one
London, England, School Admissions and Discharges, 1840-1911
Name: Ellen Welsh
Age: 10
Birth Date: 15 Feb 1879
School: Frankham Street School
Borough: Lewisham
Admission Date: 23 Sep 1889
Parent: Robert Welsh
Reference Number: LCC/EO/DIV06/FRA/AD/003
Address 23 Giffin Street and then makes ref to St Francis Notting Hill
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Oh wow.... that is a good find. Sal said Ellen's death registration gives her birth date as 7th Feb 1879, but that's only as accurate as the person giving the information.But how many Ellen's have we found with father as Robert Welsh ?
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School before
London, England, School Admissions and Discharges, 1840-1911
Name: Ellen Welsh
Age: 10
Birth Date: 15 Feb 1879
School: St Clement's Road School
Borough: Kensington and Chelsea
Admission Date: 25 Feb 1889
Parent: Robert Welsh
Address looks like 33 S. Tharg.
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I have just had a look and I think the address is St Kath Rd.... short for St Katherine's Road (Kensington)
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I knew I had seen this somewhere ! what do you think? :D
Baptism = Kensington and Chelsea - St James Norlands, Kensington
9 April 1889 - James son of Robert & Elizabeth WELCH, Labourer - 33, S. Katherine's Rd.
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Yes because although I am rubbish at deciphering, I remember
1891 and so full circle!
St Katherines Road, Kensington, London, England
M Murphy Head Married 51 Mariner America
Ellen Murphy Wife Married 44 Yorkshire
Frederick Murphy Son Male 12 1879 London
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Oh yes! I remember now... as they say - two heads are better than one! :)
I am probably wrong on this as I am guessing - but as I can't see a birth registration for James in Kensington area where he was baptised, I am wondering if this birth just might be his, especially as Ellen was at school in the Lewisham area at the time.
Births Mar 1889
Welsh James - Greenwich 1d 1034
I am off for tonight now x
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I bow to your knowledge of the London borough's, night night
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Hi Dizzifish & Willsy,
Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! Oh my Lord; Lordy, Lordy me!! Whoopee!! Yippee!! Yeehah!
Well done to the both of you, absolutely fantastic work! You two are both a-m-a-zing!
Yet again I cannot believe my own eyes, great work. Thank you xxxx
James Welch
SON of Robert & Elizabeth Welch-----NOT the mystery man Smith
The baptism record occurred in the same place that Betsy`s Mother and Step-father were living at--in St. Katherine`s Road.
In the 1891 census, same road, the Ecclesiastical parish was St James Norland. Ellen & Martin Murphy definitely lived in this area 1884-1891, Florence school record 1884 & the 1891 census. You have found the correct James and parents. Brilliant.
Inwardly I had hoped that we might look for James during this recent combined search for Betsy`s family but I never thought that we would find him, wonderful.
I knew it, I strongly suspected that Betsy & Robert had not separated pre-1890, for me, supported with your finding his military records, newspaper reports etc... and then your finding Florence`s birth details blew the allegation that he was deceased and separated right out of the water, your findings keep confirming that they were together as a couple a lot longer than had first been believed according to Betsy.
Betsy lied. It is extremely likely that Robert Welsh was the Father of all of the children pre-Thomas Brown days from 1891.
Nor did I believe that there was a man named Smith involved with this family, that this was a very canny lie told by Betsy when dealing with child agencies to deliberately deceive and deter them from finding the rightful alledged `Father`s` of the children by giving a very common surname with Smith---should they have wanted them to take responsibility for the kids etc...
The 1906 report said that James Welch, alias Smith, whereabouts unknown, age 17--so born in 1889 which backs up your birth details.
1906 report;-James Welch alias Smith & Ellen Welsh alias McCarthy, I think the aliases might be as a result of people or someone who brought them up---their respective carers, which was not Betsy Merchant. Did James die or was placed in care as he was not with Betsy & Robert in 1890 Chatham, Kent?
Obinia was most likely to have been born between 1886-1888. The Son John having been born January 1886 in Islington.
Ellen Welsh
St Clements Road School was around the corner from St Katherine`s Road, where Elizabeth, Robert, Ellen & Martin Murphy were all living. The same school that Florence Columbius Murphy went to, Betsy`s sister.
I have yet to view the school records but Frankham Street School; refers to St Francis---Florence C Murphy also went to a school with that name----so was Betsy & Robert moving from place to place, on the whole, with her Mother, think so? Notting Hill was also one of the places listed for Obinia`s POB.
The birth details 15 Feb 1879 could be correct or baptism date or another ploy to avoid being traced by the real Father if apt?.
Although there is a good chance here that Ellen was the real Daughter of Robert Welsh and that Robert & Betsy were together as a couple just prior to the 1881 census taken in Derby.
Or, Betsy could have had a brief relationship with another and then Robert raised her as his own and purposefully given a different name to the enumerator in the 1881 census-Susannah? I will take another look this evening for her baptism record, you never know we might get lucky again.
A possibility for Ellen;1891 census-Horsleydown St John, St Olave, Southwark
Address; Fennimore Place, Church Street.
Ellen Welch, age 10, Scholar, Born 1881 London. Granddaughter.
Mary Welch, 15y, Furriers apprentice, born 1876 London. Granddaughter.
Catherine McCarthy, widow, Mother, 69y, Born Ireland. Paralyzed. 1822
Julia McCarthy, head, widow, 33y, Born St Johns, London. Furrier. 1858
Norah McCarthy, Sister, 31y, single, Furrier, Born St Johns, London. 1860
Possible, the Welch girls do not necessarily have to be Sisters or Granddaughters of the McCarthy`s, just find this record very interesting.
Sadly, it is looking more and more probable that Robert cooperated with Betsy when placing their children into care.
Willsy & Dizzifish thank you, you have made my day. xx
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I was going to look if they could have been at the same school as Florence C. went to bed and it suddenly crossed my mind to look!!!
There are a small number of James Wel*h that go into the navy/marines, one in a home called St Joseph's 1901 but I couldn't be sure enough to post. There is an Ellen Welsh, niece, with a Margaret Fennerman, but I can only find this Margaret 1891.
Great when it comes together!
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Hi Willsy... good find and worth looking into to see if there is a connection.
I am thinking the name is Finneran ?
1891 with Ellen Welsh... Margaret Finneran has age as 53 on the original image?
1891 - RG12 /Piece 233 /Folio126 /Page34 - Honduras Street, St Luke, Holborn, London
1881 - RG11 /Piece 371 /Folio56 /Page30 - 1, Montague Court, St Botolph Without Bishopsgate, London City
1871 - RG10 / Piece 416 /Folio 8 /Page 9 - Montague Court, Bishopsgate, London City
1861 - RG 9/Piece 231 /Folio 129 /Page 14 - 15, George Street, Shoreditch, London.
The 1881 & 1871 census has a McCarthy family with them or next door?
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Hi Dizzifish & Willsy,
Ooh, more possibilities, I will shortly follow up with a search with your latest findings in mind.
I am still buzzing over your previous results for James & Ellen.
Willsy will you please post the details of a James Welch in the St Joseph`s Home, it might be useful or at the very least we will be able to dismiss it altogether.
Off to `do` some searching back later.
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Think it's more to discount now I am looking fresh!
St Joseph's might be a family born Chelsea
RG13; Piece: 1275; Folio: 106; Page: 9
Another home with girls, has Welsh girls born Fulham
RG13; Piece: 4058; Folio: 115; Page: 8
Home again, Born Fulham in Yorkshire, would you believe a John Marchant is next on the list!
RG13; Piece: 4058; Folio: 115; Page: 8
Went with c 1889 as birth
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Hi Willsy,
Thank you very much, I will follow those findings up later.
I have been on FindMyPast, not looking for censuses, but gone through loads of newspaper results and a few military records----along with Institutions, nothing positive to report back yet but I will keep at it.
Incidentally, in one of Ellen Welsh`s marriages she had a witness Kate McCarthy but I don`t know if that has any relevance yet.
Catch up with you soon.
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When and where was the marriage?
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Bit intrigued by this one who is a Hawker
British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
Name: Robert Welch
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1885
Birth Place: Greenwich, Kent, England
Age: 18
Document Year: 1903
Regimental Number: 7256
Regiment Name: Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment
Form Title: Short Service Attestation
Number of Images: 39
Family
Robert Welch Father
Jane Welch Mother
William Welch Brother
James Welch Brother who is serving
Army reserve 1906, back in and termination 1916
There are records for a later date and I think James may be older but thought I would run the details by you as I know you have some???
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Hi,
Thank you Willsy, I will take a look at the army records and the marriage details for Ellen was;
Ellen Welsh, 21y to James Saunders, 22y.
24 Jun 1897 at;
Registry Office, District Portsea Island, County Portsmouth.
Fathers William Saunders & Robert Welsh--both Hawkers.
Witnesses; George Gesler? & Kate McCarthy.
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Came across this quite by accident
http://theromany.weebly.com/site-map.html
odd name I recognise but will be good for Lincolnshire when it is finished
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and just to add another for 1891
Clifton Crescent, Camberwell
RG12 482 23 39
There is a McCarthy family, no Kate, but Ellen is I think 10 but everyone else is born Rotherhite with a line at the first child, down to the one above this Ellen...with a daughter also born 1879, it struck me funny they don't list more for Ellen compared to the other children
Thomas McCarthy Head Married 44 Sealskin Shaver Bermondsey, Middlesex, England
Jane McCarthy Wife Married 40 Bermondsey, Middlesex, England
Mary J McCarthy Daughter Single 15 Scholar Bermondsey, Middlesex, England
Thomas McCarthy Son Single 13 Scholar Rotherhithe, Middlesex, England
Lizzie McCarthy Daughter Single Female 12 Scholar Rotherhithe, Middlesex, England
John S McCarthy Son Single 5 Scholar Rotherhithe, Middlesex, England
Hannah McCarthy Daughter Single 3 Scholar Rotherhithe, Middlesex, England
Julia McCarthy Daughter 0 Rotherhithe, Middlesex, England
Ellen McCarthy Daughter Scholar Lambeth, Middlesex, England
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Nope, looks like there are altogether 1901
RG13; Piece: 394; Folio: 105; Page: 15
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James Saunders first husband of Ellen was born approx. 1877 Chatham. 1901 census living at 23,King Street, Rochester. St. Margaret's. Occupation - hawker of flowers. Aunt Nell was a florist/hawker of flowers when I was a little girl. She used to get up very early, go and buy her flowers, come home and make them up into posies and button holes and take them round the pubs in Portsmouth selling them from a big wicker basket. Happy memories.
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Ellen Welsh/McCarthy. When Robert registered Ellen at two schools in 1889 he gave her previous school as St. Francis of Assisi RC, Notting Hill. September 1889 he gives his address as 23, Griffin Street, Lewisham. This information could be a lead to Obinia as she gives her place of birth (approx. 1888) as Notting Hill, London on the 1911 census.
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This is the only one I can come up with but wrong area
First name(s) ALMENIA
Last name WELSH
1884 Q2 Middlesborough 9D/ 657
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Ever searching for them, a bit more information has popped up on a tree that has the Australian info.
Marriage to Joseph Patrick Kilbride
1890 1 Sep Age: 18
Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Church of The Sacred Heart, Lauriston St
Death as
1909 22 May Age: 37
Leamington, Warwickshire, England
In the road near Avenue Station
To match
FLORENCE KILBRIDE
Birth year 1869
Age 40 Q2
Death year 1909
District WARWICK 6D/366
Joseph Patrick Kilbride
Birth 7 Feb 1869 in Bradford, Yorkshire, England
Death 8 Jun 1945 in Rhyl, Flintshire, Wales
Joseph's death as in Wales on BMD
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The tree shows a relationship with Hannah Cronin
Hannah Cronin
Event Type: Marriage
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration Year: 1911
Event Place: Grimsby, Lincolnshire, England
7A/1509
One of the gentleman named is Joseph P Kilbride
Tattoo artist?
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Bit intrigued by this one who is a Hawker
British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
Name: Robert Welch
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1885
Birth Place: Greenwich, Kent, England
Age: 18
Document Year: 1903
Regimental Number: 7256
Regiment Name: Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment
Form Title: Short Service Attestation
Number of Images: 39
Family
Robert Welch Father
Jane Welch Mother
William Welch Brother
James Welch Brother who is serving
Army reserve 1906, back in and termination 1916
There are records for a later date and I think James may be older but thought I would run the details by you as I know you have some???
Hi Willsy,
Thank you for taking the time to find and post the details of the WW1 record for a Robert Welch, unfortunately it is not the right family. Robert Welsh jnr was sent to live in Canada in 1892.
Robert jnr did serve in WW1 in the Canadian Overseas Expeditionary Force. Enlisting on the 28 June 1915. And the record posted would not be for his Father whom was 20 years older than this man. All the same thanks for your results & efforts put into this family.
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It was one of those you know is not quite right but... and then sometimes it leads elsewhere.
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James Saunders first husband of Ellen was born approx. 1877 Chatham. 1901 census living at 23,King Street, Rochester. St. Margaret's. Occupation - hawker of flowers. Aunt Nell was a florist/hawker of flowers when I was a little girl. She used to get up very early, go and buy her flowers, come home and make them up into posies and button holes and take them round the pubs in Portsmouth selling them from a big wicker basket. Happy memories.
Lovely to hear your stories helps to build a fuller picture of each individual. So, Ellen was a Hawker of flowers, I didn`t know that, and Robert senior was also a Hawker at times, I wonder if they kept in touch, she stated that he was alive in 2 of her marriage entries and on the 3rd in May 1923 stated he was deceased and on all 3 marriage entries said that he was her Father and a Hawker.
I suppose it is possible that Robert moved to Portsmouth or visited her, worked alongside Ellen at all, if still alive up to 1923? How would she know when he had died if she was not in touch with him or someone else that knew Robert?
James Saunders, thank you Loopyloo, I did not know his origins, but he married Ellen in 1897 Portsea, was that where they met as I am unable to figure out how Ellen ended up in Portsmouth in the beginning----through Robert or James?
Or, did she meet him in Chatham and travel to Portsea with his job, no that can`t be right as he was a costermonger and you say another Hawker of flowers---his Father was also a Hawker, were they gypsies, umm could Robert have known them and that is how Ellen met James? And if she did meet James in the Medway Towns then she would have had contact with her Mother.
And I agree with you Willsy that it is worth following through with records no matter how remote they may be from a family as they well could turn out to have a connection somewhere down the line.
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Ellen Welsh/McCarthy. When Robert registered Ellen at two schools in 1889 he gave her previous school as St. Francis of Assisi RC, Notting Hill. September 1889 he gives his address as 23, Griffin Street, Lewisham. This information could be a lead to Obinia as she gives her place of birth (approx. 1888) as Notting Hill, London on the 1911 census.
Back again. I`m with you on that one LL. Does anyone know what the actual registration district for Notting Hill, London was? Was it specifically Kensington & Chelsea? I also think that Obinia might have been born in the Notting Hill, London area about 1886-1888, but there is a possibility that she may have been born in Leicestershire.
Brother John was born Jan 1886 so Betsy could have had another child from that same year up to about Jun 1888, after that James would have been conceived, estimate, then born in the first quarter of 1889 and baptised April 1889 in Kensington.
In trying to pin down where Obinia was born by tracking Robert & Betsy`s movements to see if that gives us any insight;
Florence C Murphy
Admission into the St Clement Road School was 16 June 1884. Address; St Clements Road.
Age 11, I don`t know what age a child would have left the school back then and having left was that their schooling over for a pupil?
Her previous school was St Francis RC which fell in to the same district as where she was living in St Clements Rd and the next school that she attended. The point being, I think we all agree, that Betsy & Robert moved here to be near her family and the schools were recommended by Ellen & Martin perhaps?
Robert & Betsy---1884 in Leicester, Daughter Louisa Welsh was born 12 Oct and died Oct qtr. Up to 1886 Robert was under Military training according to his service records based at this time in Leicester but where his training took him I don`t know.
John Welsh was born 2 Jan 1886 and then baptised 13 Jan 1886 at St Barnabus, Islington after this Robert & Betsy return to Leicester and lived in lodgings in Abbey Street; 24 Jul 1886 as reported in the newspaper under suspicion of deserting the Army. Abbey Street is where Louisa died so they may well have just been visiting family or friends for a short time, Christmas, when John was born and not actually living in London.
Between July 1886-25 Feb 1889 we do not know where they were living until Ellen goes to school at St Clements.
Daughter Ellen went to St Clements from 25 Feb 1889 onwards, address St Katherine's Road, the same road Betsy`s Mother was at. And in 1889 James was born in Kensington.
Then they moved to Lewisham where Ellen goes to school at Frankham Street School 23 Sep 1889.
Some time after this Robert & Betsy move to Chatham, Kent minus the children and Daughter Florence was born 13 Sep 1890, address 155 The Brook.
If Robert was the man that had deserted the Army then he was based in Yorkshire but my hunch, as with yours, is that Obinia was born somewhere in London but the 1901 census does say that Obinia was born in Millwall--could they have lived there for a time, if so what was the registration district name for this area?
Another possible clue to Obinia`s real identity may be the fact that her Mother named all of the Welsh/Welch children after family members, although we do not have all of the extended family details, was Obinia named after family?
Robert----after his Father.
John------after Betsy`s Father & Brother & Uncle. Robert`s relation John (baptism record)
Louisa----after Betsy`s Sister Louisa Dixon Barnes/Merchant.
Florence--after Betsy`s half-sister Florence Columbius Murphy.
James----after her Uncle & cousins.
Ellen------after her Mother & Grandmother.
Other known female family members; Susannah Matlock; Betsy/Elizabeth; Mary Dixon; Maria Barnes; Sarah Glover Brewin; Jane Welsh (baptism record)
That is all for now but I will catch up with you all soon.
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Ever searching for them, a bit more information has popped up on a tree that has the Australian info.
Marriage to Joseph Patrick Kilbride
1890 1 Sep Age: 18
Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Church of The Sacred Heart, Lauriston St
Death as
1909 22 May Age: 37
Leamington, Warwickshire, England
In the road near Avenue Station
To match
FLORENCE KILBRIDE
Birth year 1869
Age 40 Q2
Death year 1909
District WARWICK 6D/366
Joseph Patrick Kilbride
Birth 7 Feb 1869 in Bradford, Yorkshire, England
Death 8 Jun 1945 in Rhyl, Flintshire, Wales
Joseph's death as in Wales on BMD
Hi Willsy,
Well done for finding the Kilbride information. How did you manage that, with such an uncommon name in the 18th century there were not many results revealed on ancestry & FindMyPast, good work.
That Florence & Joseph in Warwickshire looks very promising, if correct then the deaths are why we could not find Florence in the 1911 census.
The Scottish marriage, who did that Joseph marry please, does it say? Thanks for the details of Hannah Cronin. I will chase these people up soon but got to dash now.
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ooh sorry, that was all info that suddenly appeared on a tree (the one with the daughter going to Australia), it's Joseph's marriage to Florence but I haven't found it. It also gave those details of death for Florence and I found the reg after. I couldn't find anything in the papers to back it up.
I thought Joseph might be the one in Lincoln 1911 ages ago with a Hannah, then I found the marriage reg for Jo and Hannah, the tree did not give details.
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I think this is Joseph
Lincolnshire Echo 17 May 1932
PARTNERSHIP
Well-known Novelty Showman (member of Showman's Guild) REQUIRES energetic YOUNG MAN to take interest and help to manage sideshow, £50 half share, strict business man only need write letters only for interview-JOSEPH P. KILBRIDE, Grosvenor Hotel, 11 Horne-street, Scunthorpe
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Hi,
Ooh, well done Willsy for the Kilbride details. It could well be that the Joseph in the newspaper was the one we have been searching for as he was a scene-painter and that may well have taken him into the fairgrounds & circuses. He may be found in the Showman Guild archives, I will have a look later to see what I can find.
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Hello all.... :)
Just catching up, to see how things are going.
I had tried looking for Obinia's birth registration - I have searched Kensington registration district 1886 up to Q2 in 1888, but nothing promising as yet, I haven't had chance to get back to it yet.
Just following on from the extra information that Willsy has posted on the Kilbride family...... I had previously found Joseph Patrick Kilbride in 1911 with Hannah, who I presumed was Cronin, the census had a ? in the marriage entry - they didn't marry until Q4 of 1911 in Grimsby registration district where they then had a daughter.
Births Mar 1912
Kilbride Maggie / Cronin - Grimsby 7a 1097
If it is correct that Florence died in 1909, then I am thinking the son & daughter born in Ireland belong to Hannah Cronin & the other children were Joseph & Florence Kilbride's.... but the youngest child must have only been weeks old when Florence died?
Births Dec 1906
Killbride - Hannah Winifred - Grimsby 7a 622
~ ~ ~
Births Jun 1908
Kilbride Emma Josephine - S. Shields 10a 973
~ ~
Births Jun 1909
KILBRIDE Mary Kate - S. Shields 10a 921
I had also previously looked at the Hunt family who Florence (Murphy) Kilbride was with in 1891. Elizabeth Hunt was nee' Shepherd born Binbrook in Lincolnshire, but I couldn't see a definite connection.
I had worked out she first married Alfred Henderson in 1868 and second marriage to Benjamin Hunt in 1875 at Bradford Parish Church - marriage copy on Ancestry.
You think the Welch families take some untangling? - then this fits in really well with them ;D
I think the Scottish 1890 marriage might shed more light on Florence & Joseph Kilbride, but I can't see them in the indexes and I don't have a sub to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
The online tree that Willsy has found, implies that Joseph Kilbride's parents are: Alfred Henderson & Elizabeth Shepherd ( she then married Benjamin Hunt who Florence is with, in 1891).
Here are the census details so you can check and see what you think ? was Joseph Kilbride really Joseph Henderson? and was the grandson in 1911 really Alfred Kilbride ?
1911 - 218 Bowling Old Lane Bradford, Yorkshire
1901 - 20, Euston Grove, Morecambe, Poulton, Bare and Torrisholme, Lancaster - RG13 /Piece 3985 /Folio 104 /Page 9
1901 - 242, Bowling Old Lane, Bradford, Yorkshire - RG13 /Piece 4146 /Folio 74 /Page 5
1891 - Bowling Old Lane, Bowling, Bradford, Yorkshire. - RG12 /Piece 3619 /Folio 5 /Page 6
1881 - 110, Cotewall Road, Bowling, Bradford, Yorkshire - RG11 /Piece 4439 /Folio 70 /Page 29
NOTE: Charles & Harriet Shepherd are living next door with son Sanderson and lodger Emma Shepherd
1871 - Cooks Row, Barrow on Humber, Glanford Brigg, Lincolnshire - RG10 /Piece 3437 /Folio 5 / Page 3
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Knew I had seen this address, have James Welch military notes
British Army Service Records 1760-1915
JAMES WELCH
Birth year 1887
Birth parish CHATHAM
Birth town CHATHAM
Birth county KENT
Birth country ENGLAND
Service number 49
Regiment Royal Army Medical Corps
Document Type Attestation
Attestation year 1905
Attestation Day 27
Attestation Month 2
Attestation age years 18
Attestation age months 11
Attestation Corps Royal Army Medical Corps
Attestation service number 49
Discharge Corps Royal Army Medical Corps
Series militia service records 1806-1915
Box 1295
Box Record Number 306
Record set British Army Service Records 1760-1915
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Record collection Regimental & service records
The good news is his mother is Mrs Welch 2 Clover Alley, Clover Street (1901 Census) bad news is he deserted in record time and was struck off, there is however a wonderful drawing of the tattoo he had!
So he put Chatham too, says he is residing in Gosport
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Hi Dizzifish & Willsy,
Great work from both of you. I will catch up with your searches for the Kilbride family as soon as I can. James Welch--well I never----you could knock me down with a feather.
I have tracked down and have viewed a copy of the Army record and it is the right person-son of Robert Welsh & Betsy Merchant!
So he was in Chatham in 1905, he had contact with his Mother as he nominated her as his next of kin and gave her address of Clover Alley, Chatham! Blimey you have done it again, knocked my socks off.
But he does a runner or just does not attend his military duties anymore so that may well be why she told the child care agencies that James`s whereabouts were unknown, covering up for him. Betsy may have helped him to `disappear`?
I wonder where he went, I`ll see if I can find his 1911 census entry, I suppose he may well have reenlisted when WW1 occurred-but would he have not gotten into trouble if he tried to reenlist at a later date for absconding the first time round? I feel a name change coming along here.
He joined in Portsmouth!! Wow another link there, where his sisters Ellen & Faith (Charity) went to live. Ooh, I need to look at my paperwork again and also see what else I can dig up about James.
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Ooh missed the Portsmouth bit, the one I found later there says he has been married 10yrs and from Portsmouth, otherwise I can't pinpoint him
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Hi Willsy,
The Military record that you found for James Welsh at a later date, whom had been married for 10 years and from Portsmouth---do you have more details please?
I have ordered the death cert; for Louisa Welsh to see if she died of anything similar to Sister Florence.
Thanks.
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Sorry, found later meant 1911. There is a chap in Portsmouth, was looking at the signature just now to compare but he says born in Portsmouth, dock labourer. Maybe you could have a look, the signature isn't quite the same but he is that bit older, already slipped up with him once!
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Hi Willsy,
Thank you, good work.
When James was in Chatham in 1905 and enlisted in the R.A.M.C he made himself absent for any future service with them, may have done a runner, I don`t know if he thought he would be in trouble or not as he seems to have disappeared thereafter.
I am surmising here, the 1906 Dr B report said James was 17y, whereabouts unknown and used the alias of Smith, I now think that his Mother was covering up for him for some reason or other or had washed her hands of him, probably knew where he was, but deliberately attached the name Smith to James knowing full well it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack if the authorities wanted to find him for any reason.
If he was in trouble then he may have changed some of his personal details, including his place of birth.
On his enlistment papers James stated that he had lived in Gosport, Hampshire for at least 12 months which was a large Military area. And Gosport was opposite Portsmouth City so it would not be deemed unusual if he set up home there.
James may have been involved in Military duties in those 12 months or lived there as a civilian as he was not raised by his Mother--and then ended up in Sittingbourne working for Mr Batchelor or vice-versa.
It is possible that he may have returned to Gosport or Portsmouth from Chatham, by boat perhaps from either Rochester or the Chatham Dockyard.
I am guessing but James having been in touch with his Mother might have learnt that his Sister Ellen was in Portsmouth, where she married William Gambier in 1904, and tried to find her?
The records that you have found are worth following up as it might be James, anything is possible with the twists and turns in this family.
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I was just doing an online search for 1 montague court bishopsgate and this thread came up. It's a slight deviation from your search, and I couldn't quite get everything you were looking at, but I thought I'd take a long shot and see if I had any connection or a query I have could be solved.
My great great grandmother was Catherine Scully (1881 living at 1A Montague Court with mother Ellen), in 1886 she had a son, Benjamin William - just got birth certificate - no father named!
She is listed as a domestic servant at 1 Montague Court - she leaves workhouse with son, but returns in July and her son dies in the workhouse.
By 1890 she is in Bethnal Green and marries Luke Mizon.
Now I'm trying to figure out who could have been Benjamin's father, I wondered as a servant, whether it was the master...so I know this is a long shot, but does anyone know anymore about Montague Court and those living there?