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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: bundygirlsmum on Thursday 07 August 14 05:16 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find my mothers family and Mabel keeps popping up as a possibility of being my Great Grandmother.
Mum Joy Margaret Rees b:1934 d:2011 married Peter Ivan Murrell 1956
Nana Irene Margaret Rees b:1919 d:1958 married Stanell William Gale Rees 1938 then Arthur Ralph Fenton 1956
GG Mabel Alice Rickard
Now, we know that Alice was married to William Rickard in 1902. They lived in Manakau quite happily so William thought. Mabel and William had 4 children, (no names) but in the early stages of the last babies life, Mabel left William out of the blue. William started divorce proceedings years later and was granted his divorce in 1919.
Mabel was thought to have been in Wellington in 1916.
Did Mabel re-marry and have another child?
What were the names of the other children?
Did William ever see them again?
If anyone can help with some information I would be most appreciative.
Cheers
Wendy
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Do you know when William Rickard died?
He may have left a probated will. If so, his children may be mentioned.
www.archway.archives.govt.nz
You have probably seen the item re the divorce in the 'Taranaki Daily News' dated 23.8.1919......
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
Minniehaha.
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I am trying to find my mothers family
Hello...
Hope I'm not missing the obvious :-)
If you're trying to trace family one of the usual things to do is purchase printouts of births, deaths and marriages.
If you want to find out who was the mother of your grandmother Irene then the best thing you could do is check out the birth details on Irene's 1919 birth certificate. As the birth is "non-historical" (occured less than a hundred years ago) you can't order it via the publicly accessible part of the BDM NZ website but you still have three options.
1) Visit your local library, check out the 1919 Births fiche, find Irene, make a note of the folio number, phone BDM NZ on 0800 22 52 52, answer a few I.D questions, quote them the folio number, give them your credit card details, wait a week for the birth certificate to arrive.
2) If you live in Auckland, Manukau, Wellington or Christchurch - Visit your local library, check out the 1919 births fiche, find Irene, make a note of the folio number, visit your local Registrar's office (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0199j/), fill in a BDM 93B form, give them your credit card details, wait a week for the birth certificate to arrive.
3) Apply for a RealMe verified account (https://www.realme.govt.nz/what-is-realme/) and then order the 1919 birth certificate through BDM NZ Non-Historical Records (https://www.bdmonline.dia.govt.nz/NonHistoricRecords)
There is a fourth option, which is just wait a while and various Rootschatters will make fairly educated guesses about who is Irene's mother.
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Speaking of which... one thing seems strange to me in that PapersPast says that Mabel left for Wellington with the youngest child never to be seen again.
Taranaki Daily News , 23 August 1919, Page 6
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0199k/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0199k/)
Presumably the youngest child was Rita Nell b.1911. Yet when Rita marries in 1933 she is "the youngest daughter of W.Rickard of Drury" so presumably contact was re-established somewhere along the way.
New Zealand Herald, 31 October 1933, Page 1
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0199l/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0199l/)
And as she was the "youngest daughter" and born in 1911 then she and your grandmother Irene born eight years later can't be sisters.
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Out of interest, what do you know about Mabel. Age, parents, nationality? Have you seen her 1902 marriage certificate. Any info you can give will help in tracing her.
And have you checked the 1919 electoral roll to see if any female adults are living with William in Drury.
For what it's worth I reckon Mabel became Mabel Alice NIVEN d.1974
Regards
Beg
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Thanks for the info Beg. I didn't want to go purchasing records without something a bit solid to go on. If Mabel remarried it would have made her at least 90ish. William and Mabel married in 1902.
I will take your advice and follow some other leads.
Thanks again.
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Hi Minniehaha,
Thanks for the links. I am pretty sure William was born in New Zealand. I shall go hunting lol.
Thanks again
Wendy
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They lived in Manakau
Hi,
Just wondering if it is Manakau as in Manawatu/Wanganui and not Manukau as in South Auckland?
Cheers
KHP
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I can see two William Rickards for 1919 in the Manawatu/Wanganui area, one in Dunedin North, one in Palmerston North and one in Taranaki.
Cheers
KHP
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Hi KHP,
My Mother and her parents lived in Albert Street, Palmerston North for a donkeys age. I can see on Electoral roles that William and Mabel lived in the Otaki area. William remarried and died in 1971 in Auckland.
Still no sign of Mabel once she was last seen in Wellington about 1916.
This is probably a wild goose chance, but anything is worth a shot lol.
Cheers
Wendy
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Ok, you mentioned they lived in Manakau.
The only Rickard's that I can see living there is a Mabel Annie and Charles Rickard in the 1919 E/R for Otaki, Wellington.
Just throwing that in for elimination, but we look under every stone/brick, until we narrow it down.
Yes, I did see the Mabel Alice Rickard's on the E/R's but Manakau didn't come up, unless I had a spot on my glasses ;D
Beg will put me right :D
It is going to be like a Lucky Dip here, putting our hand in the bag and pulling out information :D
Cheers
KHP
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And have you checked the 1919 electoral roll to see if any female adults are living with William in Drury.
Beg, the earliest the above William appears on the Franklin Roll is 1935.
Cheers
KHP
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Thanks KHP :)
I didn't want to go purchasing records without something a bit solid to go on.
Hi Wendy...
The "something a bit solid to go on" would be the 1919 birth of your grandmother.
Does your grandmother have any siblings born over 100 years ago. If so you could check their births on the BDM NZ website as it would list parents.
I'm curious as to what made you make a connection between your grandmother and William and Mabel RICKARD, apart from them all having the same surname.
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The reason I mentioned Mabel Alice NIVEN is that BDM NZ Deaths says she was born in Dec 1882 and BDM NZ Births mentions a Mabel BLAIR born in Dec 1881. Born in the early 1880's and married in 1902 is possible.
Mabel Alice NIVEN is buried in Waikumete. Would need to trace her back through electoral rolls to see when she appears.
Regards
Beg
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Unless we have certainty that Irene was born in NZ, the 1938 marriage may be the place to start.
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Mabel Alice NIVEN is buried in Waikumete. Would need to trace her back through electoral rolls to see when she appears.
There is a Mabel Alice Niven that first appears 1919 & 1928 E/R in the Rangitikei, Manawatu-Wanganui area.
Then :
Mabel Alice Niven 1935 Patea Taranaki
Mabel Alice Niven 1938 New Plymouth Taranaki
Mabel Alice Niven 1946 New Plymouth Taranaki
Mabel Alice Niven 1949 Roskill Auckland
Mabel Alice Niven 1949 New Plymouth Taranaki
Mabel Alice Niven 1954 Roskill Auckland
Mabel Alice Niven 1957 Roskill Auckland
Mabel Alice Niven 1963 Onehunga Auckland
Mabel A Niven 1969 Onehunga Auckland
Haven't gone through the addresses, just posted the years of her movements for you Beg :D
Cheers
KHP
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Oh thanks for your efforts KHP. According to the paperspast the divorce stories list William as a farmer and they were married at the Maori Church in Otaki. A search on him in the electoral rolls has them living in Manakau.
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Hi
Mmm... not sure about how Mabel Alice NIVEN has come into "the mix" ???
The lady of this name who appears in NZ electoral rolls (at Taranaki and later of Auckland), seems to have been Mabel Alice (nee WEST), the wife of George Wilson NIVEN.
The "Feilding Star" - 21 August 1916 - page 4 (Taihape Boy in England) gives an account of their marriage in England.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
[George Wilson NIVEN d. 1959 (NZ) aged 68 years. ]
~ Lu
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...not sure about how Mabel Alice NIVEN has come into "the mix" ???
Hi Lucy...
Just name association. Nothing spectacular.
Thanks for discounting it.
Regards
Beg
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..... the 1938 marriage may be the place to start.
Hi Wendy
I'm inclined to agree that the 1938 marriage of Irene Margaret RICKARD, is the place to start. ;)
If indeed she was born in 1919, then at the time of her marriage she was still deemed to be a minor (under the age of 21 years) and as such, required parental permission to marry.
Before applying for the (non-historic) marriage record from NZ BDM, you may like to request (under a separate topic) a look-up of the "Intention to Marry Notice" (ITM). Usually the name of the person giving consent, is recorded on the ITM.
I should point out also that Irene's husband is shown on the 1938 marriage index as "Stanley REES" [Folio # 08356 ]. You'll need these details too if applying for the non-historic marriage printout.
I suspect that the marriage may have taken place in Wellington ? [Stanell William Gale REES who was widowed in February 1937, and was residing at that time in Petone, Wellington, was still on the Hutt electoral roll as at 1938. I didn't find anything to show that his name had been removed from that particular roll. ]
And as suggested earlier, it is still a good idea to see if you can find Irene's NZ birth registration c. 1919. ;)
~ Lu
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Thanks Lu. Can I obtain these records if I live outside NZ?
Stanell (Stanley) and Irene lived in Palmerston North for many years. In fact, he lived there until his death.
Cheers
Wendy
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Hi again...
I've PM'd you the folio numbers for the 1919 birth, the 1938 marriage and the 1956 marriage.
For what it's worth, if you intend to buy a certificate I'd still suggest the 1919 birth certificate over the marriage certificates. On a marriage certificate the parents are secondary information whereas on a birth certificate they are primary information.
I don't know if they do printouts for non-historical records. You'd need to ask when ordering. A printout (scan) of the register is preferable to, and cheaper than, a certificate transcribed from the register.
Calling from overseas you dial (+64 4) 463 9362
Starting an ITM look-up thread is a great idea. I hadn't picked up on the bride being a minor. Nice one Lucy. But again, any parents mentioned on an ITM are secondary information. For an ITM look-up thread you need to specify where and when-ish the marriage took place.
The 1919 birth was registered in Palmerston North so maybe before doing anything else check the 1919 electoral roll for any RICKARDs living in Palmerston North.
Regards
Beg
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I got your pm, thanks. I did reply but I think I did it wrong. What is a 'look-up thread'. Sorry to be a bother. I imagine this would all be much easier if I moved back home lol.
Thanks again for all your help.
Cheers
Wendy
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Hi again...
Somewhat bizarre but I googled Irene REES and came across her/your previous Rootschat thread. It's exactly two years ago to the day that I gave you the same "non-historical" spiel :-) Unsurprisingly overlooked because of Newbe's generous actions but it's good to know that Google is keeping an eye on us all.
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An ITM look-up entails a very kind Rootschatter visiting Wellington Archives on your behalf and looking up the paperwork that the bridal party had to fill in before they got married. In the case of a minor it often mentions a parent.
Unfortunately for post-1881 marriages you need to know the date and place of the marriage. It's unfair to expect the looker-upper to trawl through thousands of marriages, especially in the major cities.
Here is some background info on ITMs...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vr2/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vr2/)
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In your thread of two years ago you sounded unsure of Irene's year of birth. Unless something has changed since that time it may pay to play it safe and purchase the 1938 marriage certificate as you definitely know when that happened.
Personally I'd still go with the 1919 birth of Irene Margaret RICKARD in Palmerston North as it matches her name, fits with her age at death and Palmerston North seems to be a theme.... but you're the one spending the money.
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And if you've not seen it here is Irene's will...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019ak/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/019ak/)
Regards
Beg
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Here is the link to that thread, to save up doubling info and refresh memories.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019al/
Cheers
KHP
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Well. I have just seen the will and even though there were no surprises I was sad that I never knew her. I see where my mother got her handwriting from. I will get more 'together' tomorrow. Thanks so much to you all.
P.S. The discoveries that Newbie helped with culminated with my daughter and I going to Christchurch in March this year to lay my Mothers ashes with my brother.
Seriously wonderful people on this site.
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hello all ~ i am the grand daughter of Joy Margaret Rees- Odgers
i am trying to find info on my grand father Peter Ivan Murrell ~ i know that he was working on the railways in Ormondville NZ but not much other info ~ my nana passed away before i could get the info she had. ( BundyGirlsMum) is my auntie name removed
i would appreciate any help you may have ~ i have taken noted from this thread and am trying to sort it all out ~ Stanley William Rees is my great grand dad ~ i am hoping to find anything really as well as photos if there are any ~ Thank-You in advance
kind regards
Kiwi In Oz ???
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i am trying to find info on my grand father Peter Ivan Murrell
Hello...
Welcome to Rootschat :)
The following online tree may give you a starting point for tracing Peter Ivan MURRELL and the MURRELL family. Not sure if there are contact details for the tree owner.
http://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-126841121/murrell (http://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-126841121/murrell)
It pays to take online trees with a pinch of salt. Having said that, this one does have a lot of family photos so it seems as if it was created by a MURRELL family member.
If you want to verify everything for yourself it would be best to start by purchasing a printout of the Peter MURRELL to Joy REES marriage register entry. They were married in NZ in the mid-1950's.
You can get the exact reference number for the marriage from the NZ BDM Marriages fiche found at many of the larger NZ libraries. Then phone BDM NZ, give them the reference number and your credit card details (it costs NZ$20.60) and they'll email you a printout (scan) of the marriage register. The "Parents Details" will take you back one generation.
Regards
Beg
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The death of Peter Ivan MURRELL does not appear on the NZ BDM on line index.........
Minniehaha.
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[...] it would be best to start by purchasing a printout of the Peter MURRELL to Joy REES marriage register entry.
You can get the exact reference number for the marriage from the NZ BDM Marriages fiche found at many of the larger NZ libraries.
Hi again...
Silly me :-) I forgot that the reference number on the Marriages fiche is the same as the reference number on the Marriage CD. So I got the number from the CD and sent it to you via a PM (Personal Message). You'll need one more post (three posts in total) to access your PM Inbox.
Regards
Beg