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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: iwccc on Tuesday 05 August 14 10:13 BST (UK)
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Can anyone enlighten me as to what it means when a DN says "OFS / Scottish colonial" for a birthplace/nationality?
Also what is the easiest way to get a death certificate from South Africa?
I need the certificate for James McKay Bishop b. 1837 d. 1887 to try and find his parents names. Does the Scottish colonial bit refer to him or his parents? As it seems that James McKay died - Cape of Good Hope. It is still very confusing - spent the whole day on it with a clear head and still can't find James' parents anywhere. Any help would be much appreciated.
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I am not sure but would think that the OFS/Scottish colonial would mean that he was born in the Orange Free State of Scottish descent.
Did you order the estate file from the archives?
DEPOT VAB
SOURCE MHG
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 0
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE B864
PART 1
DESCRIPTION BISHOP, JAMES MCKEY.
STARTING 18870000
ENDING 18870000
REMARKS NAGELATE EGGENOTE MARY (GEBORE VENABLES).
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James died at Vredefort in the Orange Free State, not in the Cape of Good Hope. The scans of his burial record as well as the births of his children are on familysearch.
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Or he was born in Scotland and emigrated to South Africa
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hI Nookie, My mistake. I know that James died in the Orange Free State.
I am not sure what you mean when you ask 'did I order the estate file from the archives'
How do I go about this? What archives do you mean? Can you share how I go about this? Thank you all for your input.
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Thanks braw - I am hoping that there is a Scottish link
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The estate file is kept at the archives and usually contains the death notice, will plus liquidation and distribution account. If you go to eggsa.org you can order copies from them (through the shop) using the information I gave you.
Generally speaking it will take about 4 - 6 weeks as it is all done by volunteers. You could also try and order it directly from the Free State archives. You will find their details on the National Archive site.
Often the death notice does not contain the names of the parents as the person giving the information does not know their names, but should contain the information of where he was born at least, as well as the names of his children. The liquidation and distribution account is normally not worth paying for as it just gives information on who got how much from the estate!
Hope this helps.
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I went to have a look what was in the file, there was a death notice for James and one for Mary both filled in by the same informant whose name I could not decipher. Their place of birth is given as Cape Colony and the parents of each the deceased is given as "unknown. James was a Carpenter and he died 10/11/1887 a few weeks after Mary who died 15/10/1887.Their 6 children who were minors at the time were adopted James Scott and Archibald Whimster Smart.The children were Alfred John B,George James B,Grace Mary B, Gertrude B, Herbert Venables B and Kate Helena B. There is also noted on both the DN's the estates did not have enough funds to bury the deceased and they both died in Bloemfontein, but Nookie,s info says Vredefort so I wonder if the places of birth are correct ???
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Just to throw a spanner in the works :(
I was thinking of the traditional naming patterns and wondered whether the mother of James could have been a McKay as it is not a common Christian name. Just to add to that there was a Charles Haswell McKay living in Vredefort in 1901 when his child Charles George Milne McKay was baptised.
Could he possibly be a cousin?
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What bothers me about the DN's is that none of them were dated nor was the capacity of the informant noted, I wonder how clued up the informant was as the place and date of marriage, the ages of the children and the middle name of Gertrude are not listed.
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Dear Braw, Wow, thank you so much for taking the trouble to find the DN for James McKey Brishop and Elizabeth his wife. I now can fill in their exact dates of birth and James' occupation. You mentioned that the children were adopted and then you wrote James Scott and Archibald Whimster. Were these men the ones that adopted them or ??? May I ask where this information came from - was it on Elizabeth's DN? (this would help me to accurately record the information)
What a shame that the parents are not named - I am led to believe that they may have came from Scotland - perhaps even came out as part of the 1820 settlers. If this was the case....do you know if there are any list of names of the settlers or lists of names of those on ships coming to South Africa? Really stumped now as to how to proceed to find James' parents.
I don't know much about South Africa - Where is Vredefort (is it part or near Cape Colony?)
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Dear Nookie, Good thought. I had thought McKay (McKey) maybe the mothers surname but to date have not found her. I really need something concrete to connect James to his parents. Of course once I get a name I can try tracing the family back. I'll keep trying but for present I have come to a brick wall. Thanks for your information and input. Much appreciated.
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Braw, Sorry, I meant dates of death not dates of birth.
Also I should have written Archibald Whimster Smart
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They were appointed by the Master of the Supreme Court, Orange Free State. There was also 3 Applications for Inheritance, one by Gertrude born 11/3/1896 who married Isaac A Malherbe 14/12/1898 , the other by Grace born 11/3/1876 who married Willey Glendenning on 5/7/1901 and another by George born 9/4/1872 who married Louisa Margerita ( I could not decipher her surname).
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Hello braw, Thanks for the reply. Interesting that there were three children who applied for inheritance when I am led to believe that there wasn't enough money to bury their parents. I guess it may have been after belongings were sold. The last name you mention I believe was Louisa Margerita van Soelen.
I am still at a standstill regarding how to find James McKay Bishop's parents names. I have tried a number of sites - trying to find ships that came to South Africa, the 1820's settlers sites, BMD's. I am either missing seeing the information or it isn't there. I am led to believe that the family were 'Scottish colonials'. So I have tried some Scotland sites but without a first name there are too many Bishops. I probably need a birth certificate for James. His parents names are not on his death certificate. How do I find a birth certificate from Australia? I am guessing that his father was born in Scotland (but this may not be the case), Any help anyone can suggest would be much appreciated.
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Hi
In case you don't already have this information, Prof. Johan Pottas of the University of the OFS posted this on Rootsweb about 2 years ago:
Free State founding fathers:
"I'm busy on a project of compiling a list on all the overseas settlers in the Free State for the period c 1820 up until 31 May 1902, with the condition that they had died / been buried in the Free State."
269. BISHOP, James MacKay, * 1841 + 1887 (VAB B864/1887) x Metodiste
Kerk, Bloemfontein 25/12/1867 CLARKE, Mary Elizabeth, * 1839.
(Translation: 269. BISHOP, James MacKay, b.1841 d. 1887 (VAB B864/1887 - Estate File) married CLARKE, Mary Elizabeth, b. 1839 in the Methodist Church, Bloemfontein on 25 Dec 1867.)
Shirley
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Hi, shirt27, Thanks for the reply. I hadn't seen this information before - so thank you.
I am somewhat confused though - I have James Mackay Bishop as being married to Mary Elizabeth Venables - not Mary Elizabeth Clarke.
I have both James and Mary Venables dying in 1887. The Methodist Church, Bloemfontein sounds right as many of the family were in Bloemfontein and also Methodists.
Could I ask - where did you find the name Clarke? It leaves me wondering if I am on the right tree or not!!
Thanks for the translation also.
Do you know where James Mackay Bishop was born? I have him as being born in the Cape Colony, South Africa. So I am still trying to find where James father and mother were born. Would they have been in the 1820 settlers - were they from Scotland? I am really stumped on how to find this information. Thanks again
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The estate file VAB B864/1887 is the same same file I had a look at for you and there is no mention of a Mary Clarke, The Methodist church files for Bloemfontein I believe are held in the Cory Library, Rhodes University, Grahamstown and their contact email is Cory@ru.ac.za
Regards
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Hi
I noticed the Marriage entry by chance and I don't really know anything about the BISHOP family, however I had a quick look on the National Archives site and found the entry below - the name here is CLARK. It appears that Mary Elizabeth was a widow when she married James and her maiden name was Venables.
I also saw a few transcribed Baptisms from the Bloemfontein Methodist Church in case you have not seen them
DEPOT VAB
SOURCE MHG
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 0
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE C69
PART 1
DESCRIPTION CLARK, JAMES. EGGENOTE MARY ELISABETH (GEBORE VENABLES).
STARTING 18660000
ENDING 18660000
[Translation :
VAB - Orange Free State Archives
Eggenote - wife
Gebore: born]
Baptisms
139 BISHOP Alfred John
James McKay and Mary Elizabeth 'Benanbles' of Bloemfontein *spelling
b.1869/08/30
Bap.1869/10/03
195 BISHOP George James
James McKay and Mary Elizabeth of Bloemfontein
b. 1872/04/09
bap. 1872/06/16
228 BISHOP Edgar Arthur
James McKay and Mary Elizabeth of Bloemfontein
b. 1873/06/19
bap. 1873/08/03
318 BISHOP Agnes Hannah
James McKay and Mary Elizabeth of Bloemfontein
b. 1875/03/17
bap. 1875/05/12
355 BISHOP Elsie Emma
James McKay and Mary Elizabeth of Bloemfontein
b. 1876/03/14
bap. 1876/03/16
at parents house
356 BISHOP Grace Mary
James McKay and Mary Elizabeth of Bloemfontein
b. 1876/03/14
1bap. 876/03/16
at parents house
468 BISHOP Gertruda
James McKay and Mary Elizabeth of Bloemfontein
bap. 1878/03/11
Regards
Shirley
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Hello from Australia, thank you so much for your imput. So interesting to find that Mary Elizabeth was a widow when she married James. Thank you also for confirmation of the children's dates of birth and baptisms.
Now all I need now is James' birth certificate to see if I can find his parents names. Any idea of how I go about getting one? thanks again
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Hi
Unfortunately I have had no luck in finding any further information on James M. BISHOP. You won't be able to find a Birth Certificate for him either as the approximate official registration date of births, marriages and deaths in the various provinces are as follows:
Cape: Births 1895; Marriages 1700; Deaths 1895
Natal: Births 1868; Marriages 1845; Deaths 1888
Transvaal: Births 1901; Marriages 1870; Deaths 1901
Orange Free State: Births 1903; Marriages 1848; Deaths 1903
The only other option in my opinion would be to try and find a Baptism Entry for James M. BISHOP.
In an Afrikaans book [translated]"Aspects of the Social Life in Bloemfontein, 1864 - 1871 it mentions various deaths including that of James CLARK who died of a stroke on 9 Feb 1866.
Regards
Shirley
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Hi shirl27, Thanks again for your help. Good to get a name for Mary Elizabeth's first husband.
I'll try and get a baptism date from the Methodist Church for James McKay Bishop. Hopefully there is and I can get his parents names. Regards
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Hi there, Did you get any assistance with this query ? I am researching the Venables family in South Africa, so came across your mail. I have come across James McKey Bishop married to Mary Venables dies in 1887. Must be the same one. Did you get his death certificate. if not I am sure I can help. lyn
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Hi from Australia, Thank you for your offer of help. I would be very happy to have a copy of James McKay Bishop's death notice. Perhaps you could send a copy via my personal contact.
I think I have James McKay's parents worked out now. They were John (b.1809) and Catherine Shanon. I am still checking if he had another wife called Ann. Do you have any information on this? I would be very happy if you would care to share your research on the Venables side of the family. Would you have any photos? I am happy to share any information that I have if you need it. Thank you for the contact. Looking forward to hearing from you again. Cheers
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Sorry only saw your reply today for some reason. Do you still wan these Death Notices ? His merely lists his parents as unknown unfortunately. The attachments don't seem to send off this site, so if you want me to send them please give me an email address where I can send them to.
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Hello pvamstel, Yes I would still love to have the Death Notices. But, my understanding is that I should not send an email address through the Rootschat site. In the past when people have sent information they have sent it through Rootschat. So I am not sure how we go about resolving this issue. Perhaps someone "in the know" can advise how to go about this. Thanks for the reply - would still love to have the information that you have offered.
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Pvamstel needs to make post not a reply then it will show 3 posts under her name. That will allow her to send and receive personal messages via Rootschat.