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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Suffolk => England => Suffolk Lookup Requests => Topic started by: suffolkboy_ on Monday 04 August 14 16:37 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
At the beginning of this year I recently purchased a house with the remains of a tower mill in the garden. I have been doing as much research into the mill as possible as I want to incorparate as much of the history into the mill as possible into its restoration. I have found the following script which is very informative but wondered if anyone has any further information/documentation or photos?
"This beautiful mill was built in 1839 to replace a post mill shown on Hodakinson 's 1783 map (but not on Kirby's 1736 map) at Grid Ref. 165,630. It is said that the post mill collapsed while it was being raised; at any rate the new mill, dated over the door
C.C.
1839
(for Charles Chevalier, the owner) was built by the up and coming John Whitmore, who was just establishing himself as the foremost millwright in the area. It was probably Whitmore's third tower mill, and was stouter than his slender, tall Buttrum's Mill, Woodbridge, of c.1836. It was said to have cost £2000 to build and from the outset had four patent sails, a fantail, three pairs of French stones and a flour dresser.
It was run by the Chevalier family, of Aspall Hall, with Robert Bolton as mill manager. It was advertised for sale several times in the late 1840's and was eventually sold in 1850 to James Smith. In 1853 the millers are listed as 'Smith & Knights’ and by 1868 Williarn F. Smith had taken over. In 1883 his widow was continuing the business, using both wind and steam power but by 1892 she had sold out to Robert D. Cooper. It then passed to George Cooper & Sons from at least 1896, who also ran the large watermill, Hawks Mill, at Needham Market where they continued until the late 1930's. By 1916 Debenham mill was too old fashioned for them and it had been sold to its last miller, Samuel Webster, who also worked Framsden post mill. He worked it until c.1935, latterly using only two sails, grinding oats and barley for local farmers. The flour machine had not been used since 1908. During the Great War it was under Government control and had the misfortune to be tail-winded on 12th July 1918, the cap being taken off and the sails wrecked.( A mill is tail-winded when the wind is directly behind the sails. In this situation the fantail will not work.) The Government paid £100 towards its rebuilding, which was accomplished using the old cap and winding gear with the sails, brakewheel, windshaft and wallower from Preston tower mill, near Lavenham (built by the second finest exponent of tower mills in Suffolk, William Bear). This fusion of the finest in Suffolk tower mills was carried out by a Mr. Baker, and the mill set to work again on 21st June 1921.
It was left alone for years and when pulled down to a two storey stump in December 1962, although claimed to be 'dangerous' Was in fine condition, with fantail and two sails still largely intact. The stump still survives.
As built it had an iron mortise brakewheel, iron brake and iron wallower as at Woodbridge, an iron great spurwheel under the second floor, driving three pairs of French stones via mortise nuts, a mortise crown wheel under the third floor driving the sack hoist and dresser, plus a further pair of stones on the ground floor driven by auxiliary engine. The Preston gear differed in having a composite brakewheel with iron hub, iron arms and segment teeth, with a wood rim and brake, driving a mortise wallower which had obviously been on a wooden upright shaft at Preston as a cast iron spacer was required to hang it at Debenham. There was a stone crane, and the spacious bin floor could hold 70 coombs of wheat.
It was 23ft. inside diameter at the base, and 14ft. wide at the curb, being 43ft. in height to the curb, with five floors. The total height was 57ft., with a l2ft. diameter fantail. It is said that 14 windmills could be seen working from the mill in the 1880's."
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My father stayed in Debenham Mill during the first world war. His grandfather was the miller at the time. I have a painting of the mill done by my father when it was still intact.
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My father stayed in Debenham Mill during the first world war. His grandfather was the miller at the time. I have a painting of the mill done by my father when it was still intact.
Hi Nick,
That's fantastic! WHat was your great granfather's name? Was he a Webster or was he the miller before that? I would love to see the painting. Are you local to Suffolk? If you ever want to come and have a look at the mill some time then feel free to message me and come to have a look.
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My father stayed in Debenham Mill during the first world war. His grandfather was the miller at the time. I have a painting of the mill done by my father when it was still intact.
Hi Nick,
That's fantastic! WHat was your great granfather's name? Was he a Webster or was he the miller before that? I would love to see the painting. Are you local to Suffolk? If you ever want to come and have a look at the mill some time then feel free to message me and come to have a look.
I should also add that I have a couple of photos of the Mill in (I think) 1917 when it was 'tail winded'. One is of a man (who I presume is the miller) and two children standing infront of the mill. The other is of two men and a dog stood infront of the mill. Maybe your relations?
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My great grandfather's name was Benjamin Morphy born in Grundisburgh Suffolk. Having looked at Ancestry.co.uk I think it was not him who ran the mill at Debenham during the 1st world war as he was classified as a pauper in 1901 and lived in the workhouse in Ipswich. he had a number of brothers and sisters and maybe one of them ended up living there. I know the Webster family became involved with the Morphys but haven't found where yet. Do you know the names of any of the millers who owned Debenham mill. I know that one of my father's family had a mill which was damaged and partially blew down so the people in front of the mill may well be related to me. I am happy to send you a scan of the picture but am not sure how to on this website.
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My great grandfather's name was Benjamin Morphy born in Grundisburgh Suffolk. Having looked at Ancestry.co.uk I think it was not him who ran the mill at Debenham during the 1st world war as he was classified as a pauper in 1901 and lived in the workhouse in Ipswich. he had a number of brothers and sisters and maybe one of them ended up living there. I know the Webster family became involved with the Morphys but haven't found where yet. Do you know the names of any of the millers who owned Debenham mill. I know that one of my father's family had a mill which was damaged and partially blew down so the people in front of the mill may well be related to me. I am happy to send you a scan of the picture but am not sure how to on this website.
I have the following information about the mill from the Suffolk Mills Group, Morphy is not a name I've come across to date!
"It was run by the Chevalier family, of Aspall Hall, with Robert Bolton as mill manager. It was advertised for sale several times in the late 1840's and was eventually sold in 1850 to James Smith. In 1853 the millers are listed as 'Smith & Knights’ and by 1868 Williarn F. Smith had taken over. In 1883 his widow was continuing the business, using both wind and steam power but by 1892 she had sold out to Robert D. Cooper. It then passed to George Cooper & Sons from at least 1896, who also ran the large watermill, Hawks Mill, at Needham Market where they continued until the late 1930's. By 1916 Debenham mill was too old fashioned for them and it had been sold to its last miller, Samuel Webster, who also worked Framsden post mill. He worked it until c.1935, latterly using only two sails, grinding oats and barley for local farmers. The flour machine had not been used since 1908. During the Great War it was under Government control and had the misfortune to be tail-winded on 12th July 1918, the cap being taken off and the sails wrecked. The Government paid £100 towards its rebuilding, and the mill set to work again on 21st June 1921.
It was left alone for years and when pulled down to a two storey stump in December 1962"
I would love to see a scan of the picture. I will message you my email address.
Many thanks
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Hi Suffolkboy,
I think we met briefly at Campsey Ash Bygones sale last year? I bought a sack hoist. I'm building a list of mill related data (mills, millers, millwrights, etc.) and I might be able to help with names, dates and so on. I've a roundhouse in Sweffling, and am super-keen on adding to my database but also very happy to share where I can
If so then drop me an email at peter.greene@anadarko.com.
Cheers,
Windy
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My great grandfather's name was Benjamin Morphy born in Grundisburgh Suffolk. Having looked at Ancestry.co.uk I think it was not him who ran the mill at Debenham during the 1st world war as he was classified as a pauper in 1901 and lived in the workhouse in Ipswich. he had a number of brothers and sisters and maybe one of them ended up living there. I know the Webster family became involved with the Morphys but haven't found where yet. Do you know the names of any of the millers who owned Debenham mill. I know that one of my father's family had a mill which was damaged and partially blew down so the people in front of the mill may well be related to me. I am happy to send you a scan of the picture but am not sure how to on this website.
Nick,
George Benjamin Morphey married Mary Ann Webster, the daughter of Edmund Webster, in 1871. Edmund was a miller at Framsden although it was his son, Edmund, who went on to own and run the mill there. Edmund senior's father Samuel is my greatx3 grandfather.
George was a miller who appears to have ended up in the workhouse. He had a son, Benjamin Edmund Webster Morphey, who was born in Grundisburgh in 1878. In 1891, Benjamin is living with his father at Nayland, where George is a miller. After that, in 1911, he may be at Wickham Market as Edmund Morphew, a rollerman miller, with mother Mary Morphew and possibly with a daughter Florence. His age is a few years out in 1911 so this is not definite.
John
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Hi Nick,
Very interested to hear that George B. Morphy may have ended up in the workhouse (not unusual in those days). Any idea which workhouse and when?
Cheers,
Windy
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Hi Nick,
Very interested to hear that George B. Morphy may have ended up in the workhouse (not unusual in those days). Any idea which workhouse and when?
Cheers,
Windy
Answering for Nick as I chipped in with the family history stuff, but it is the Union Workhouse, Rushmere St Andrew in 1901 where someone with his name and age is listed as a miller. Before that, he was a miller at Grundisburgh and Nayland.
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Rezillo
thank you for the interesting information about the Websters. (George) Benjamin Morphey was my great grandfather. He had 8 children of whom I know about 2 - Hugh Webster Morphy was the youngest and was my grandfather and Benjamin born in 1878 in Grundisburgh was my great uncle who was married to Mary Ellen Purchas and had one child called Sybil who was my father's cousin. My father was also called Hugh Webster Morphy. I think that Samuel Webster is also my greatx3 grandfather via Mary Ann Webster. So you are probably my 4th cousin! :)
Windy
(George) Benjamin Morphey was in Ipswich workhouse in 1901. I wasn't aware of the George but there are quite a few anomalies in the Ancestry records.
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I've just checked my database for "Morphy" and it appears Benjamin M. was a tenant miller in Shotley in 1896 and 1897. A storm in 1896 damaged the mill, the following year Morphy was being pursued for the rent (£18 per annum). The case went to court and he lost. This might explain why he ended up in the Workhouse?
Windy
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Edmund Webster also represented him in a case about disputed costs of effects when Benjamin left Grundisburgh mill. Plus there is a court case best not posted about here.
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Very interesting about the storm damage in 1896. I know there is an apocryphal story in my family about a relative whose windmill blew down! Also intriguingly mysterious about the court case. Was there something dodgy going on?
I looked at all the records sents to me by Rezillo and they mostly fit together with what I have found out already. It is confusing that the names in the records seem to get changed randomly so you have Morphey, Morphy and Morphew. Also that second names seem to get transposed to first names like Benjamin Edmund.
I have contacted my cousin who is more closely related to Sybil Florence to see if she knows anything about Benjamin and Mary Ellen splitting up.
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On a related subject, is anyone on Rootschat familiar with the use of Framsden Mill?
The Websters have a long association with the mill, from Sam, to his father Edmund, to his grandfather Edmund and his great grandfather Samuel (my 3Xgreat grandfather). The last two appear to be master millers employing men in 1851 and 1861 at Framsden but this seems to contradict the millers record in the Wikipedia entry for the mill.
I became aware of this when cross checking for someone in SFHS who is compiling a list of Suffolk millers.
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Hi Rezillo,
I should be able to help you here, but have to go and watch the MIGHTY SPURS spank the Arse this afternoon. If everything goes to plan then may this evening...unless I drowning my sorrows!
Windy
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Noticed a new metal covering to the top of the mill at Framsden on the way home this week, looks inconguous, Have you seen it Windy?
Pat ...
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Hi Rezillo & Mawther,
Well football could have been better, but we are still in the running.
The Websters did hold the mill from about 1853 until 1938. Samuel Webster having taken on the mill following George Hovell Waller's bankruptcy in 1849 (any further dates would be nice).
There also seems to be a Samuel Webster in Thornham Magna in 1853 until about 1855 (was he a relative?).
Horatio Webster owned a mill in Badingham in 1838.
Not seem Framsden mill for a while; planning to pop over in the spring.
Windy
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Thanks Windy,
This is what I have for the 'first' Framsden Webster miller (my x3 great grandfather). I've pm'd you my address if you want to be sent any of the source stuff.
I've got a similar amount of info I could post on his son Edmund and his grandson Edmund Samuel but that could be a bit much for one post.
SAMUEL WEBSTER b1799 Framlingham
Samuel Webster born 1799, son of Edmund and Deborah Webster (late
Whiting/Wightman in the SRO baptism microfiche records) at Framlingham.
I found out last week that the family descendants have an anecdote of
Bob Webster being told by his grandfather that they were descended from
Whitemans but no-one knew any more about the connection until now!
Children:
Samuel b1825 Framsden -becomes a miller at Framsden then farmer.
Edmund b1828 Framsden - becomes miller at Framsden (miller employing 2
men in 1861) then cattle dealer by 1871. Son Edmund Samuel becomes miller at
Framsden by 1881, employing one man.
Michael b1830 (baptised Framsden) -becomes farrier.
James abt.1832 Framsden - becomes the miller at Aythorpe Roding and then
High Easter in Essex (starts as journeyman miller to Frederik Cullum at
Watermill House, Kettleburgh in 1861).
John abt. 1835 Framsden - becomes miller at Pattiswick, Essex
(Blackwater watermill) ending there as a farmer employing 2 millers, 3
men and 1 boy.
William abt. 1838 - becomes bleach worker/wagoner in Yorkshire.
Hannah 1840 -becomes servant/housewife/nursemaid.
Rebeca 1844 - servant/housewife
Career
1823 Samuel marries Lucy Creasy of Framsden at Framsden. Not literate - signs
name with X on marriage record.
1841 Framsden census - ag lab.
1851 Framsden census - master? (not entirely clear writing) miller - quite a leap! Place of birth:
Framlingham.
Post 1851, Samuel moves to Thornham Magna to be miller there and run a farm at
Stoke Ash with son Samuel.
1855 Recorded as miller and farmer at Thornham Magna in Whites Directory
1856 Wife Lucy dies at Thornham Magna.
1857 Death at Thornham Magna. His and Lucy's gravestone is in Thornham
Magna churchyard.
Other relevant info:
Son Samuel's marriage to Frances Kemp in Oct 1851 at Framsden. The
Record Office microfiche of the register has Samuel Webster, miller
(father Samuel, miller) marrying Frances Kemp, servant (father Robert,
gardener). Witnessed by Edmund (his brother) and Mary Ann Webster.
This confirms that Samuel senior was a miller. This is the only
reference I have to Samuel junior being a miller; in the 1851 census he
is an ag lab at Framsden, lodging next door to where his future wife is
a servant. By 1861 he is a farmer at Thelnetham. He later moves to
Braiseworth and then Bedingfield.
Move to Thornham, post 1851 census.
Samuel senior's move date to Thornham mill and to farm at Stoke Ash not
precisely known but in 1854, son Michael is married in London and his
father Samuel is recorded as a farmer, which he wasn't at Framsden, so
assumed at Thornham by then.
Samuel junior has his first daughter baptised at Stoke Ash in 1852.
Although it is possible his father moved there later to join him, it is
likely that his father led the move as both the Stoke Ash farm and the
Thornham millhouse contents are sold on his death. This means that
Samuel senior becomes the miller at Thornham Magna some time between
1851 and 1852. The executors notice beneath the sale notice implies he
may have continued to be the miller at Framsden up to his death in 1857
but this is not clear. After his father's death, his son up sticks and
moves his family to Thelnetham. He does not return to milling.
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Blimey! I'll read through tomorrow. Lots v interesting though
Windy
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Here's his son, Edmund Webster b1828:
Children:
Mary Anne b1852 (marries George Benjamin Morphey, a miller who in his early days is working for Thomas Bond at Framsden - 1869 Framsden assault court case mentions this. Reference to "Thomas Bond's mill" and Thomas is called as a witness. Edmund's son later represents George in a legal dispute at Grundisburgh Mill in 1887).
Edmund Samuel b1853.
Edith b1855.
1828 - born/baptised at Framsden
1841 census - living with family of John Bond, farmer, at Framsden.
Feb 1851 marries Mary Anne Walne/Warne, the illegitimate daughter of Harriett Warne (Harriet marries John Brunning of Framsden, six years after Mary Anne's birth). Microfiche of record has Edmund Webster, miller, marrying Mary Anne Walne. Witnesses by Samuel Webster (his brother) and Frances Kemp. Samuel and Frances marry later that year and their marriage is witnessed by Edmund and Mary Anne.
1851 census - living with mother-in-law Harriett and her husband at Framsden. Described as miller journeyman.
1861 census - living as head of family at Framsden. Miller employing two men. As his father appears to be a master miller there in 1851 then goes to Thornham and dies in 1857, it may be that Edmund takes over as miller at Framsden after his death.
[1869 Thomas Bond miller at Framsden - see court case above]
1871 census. Living with wife at Framsden. Occupation is dealer. Perhaps the depression has hit his milling business. His son Edmund at this time is a miller's assistant with Edmund's brother, James, at Aylthorpe Roding in Essex.
1880 Evicted from his home by Lord Tollemache.
1881 census. Cattle dealer. Living with his son Edmund in Mill Road, Framsden, who has returned to the village and is a miller employing one man (may be Robert Woods on same page) and is head of the household.
1891 census - still living with son Edmund at the Mill House, Framsden. Occupation dealer.
1900 Dies at Framsden
And Samuel senior's grandson, Edmund Samuel:
Children:
Samuel ("Sam") Webster b1877
Twin brother Edmund dies as infant.
1861 - Framsden, scholar
1871 - Mill House, Aythorpe Roding, Essex - miller's assistant for uncle, James Webster
1876 - marries Laura Eade, daughter of Samuel Eade at Framsden. Edmund described as miller on marriage record (SRO fiche).
1878 - Laura dies (possible childbirth complications - guess)
1881 - Mill Road, Framsden. Miller employing one man. Probably the Robert Woods mentioned above as in January 1883, a Robert Woods set fire to a haystack in Framsden and was taken to court, where Edmund testified that he was his employee at the time. Head of house; his father and mother living with him.
1891 - Miller, Mill House, Framsden.
1901 - Miller (on own account). Next door is William Bond (worker) miller/journeyman.
1906 - Marries Rebecca Grimwade of Framsden (at Lewisham!)
1908 - Kellys Directory for Framsden; described as "miller (wind and steam)"
1911 - Buys Debenham Tower Mill for £300 (Framlingham Weekly News 08 July 1911 -sale of Debenham Hall Estate, property of late J W Read. Mr Webster of Framsden listed as buyer of tower mill, residence, paddock and buildings)
1911 - Miller, Framsden
1939 - Death, Edmund "of Framsden Mill, Framsden" according to probate index.
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Hi, sorry to butt in but i was drawn to your discussion with regards Benjamin Edmund Webster Morphy born Grundisburgh, Suffolk 1878. My family are descendants of Mary Ellen Morphy b.1880 in Maldon (nee Purchas) his wife.
We have hit a brick wall as to what happened after Sybil Florence was born 1902.
does the Court case you refer to have anything to do with this ? We cannot find a Death record for Benjamin Edmund Webster Morphy. Mary Ellen Morphy was my Great grandmother via her daughter Mary Emily born 1910.
We have managed to trace Sybil's family line but Benjamin just seems to disappear.
Any help or suggestions in filling in the blanks gratefully received.
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In 1911, Benjamin is living with his mother at Wickham Market as Edmund Morphew (rollerman, flour miller), single, along with daughter Florence Morphew. PoBs Grundisburgh and Maldon. His wife appears to be a servant in Kensington at that time (this may be a coincidental name link).
I don't know why he is using middle names for himself and his daughter unless he is trying to lie low without actually giving false info on the census.
His father's court case was to do with intervening in an assault. He was not the principal party involved.
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thanks Rezillo, The Kensington link is correct Benjamin and Mary had split up by 1906 and she had to work as a lady's maid to support herself, my grandmother b1910 was fostered out to a child nurse at age 4 months listed as Mary Morfi on the 1911 census we found Benjamin/Edmund too (hiding?) in the 1911 Census in Suffolk with his mother and young child.
My grandmother Mary Emily took his Surname and there was no divorce. My great grandmother kept her married name. The 1921 census may shed some more light on things but it's a long wait !
How did you find the Court case information ? Thanks once again. :)
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The court case was either from the Findmypast newspaper search section or from the Gales 19thC newspaper archive. For the latter, Suffolk County Council Libraries webpages provide an online login where you can enter your library card number for free access from home. Once that's done, the Connected Histories website works for searching it as well.
The Ipswich Journal 25 December 1869. Page 7
[edit] It was Findmypast. In the Newspapers and Periodicals section, narrow the Search range to the above date, then put Framsden in the Search field.
Also see Framlingham Weekly News 15 January 1870 - it looks as if Benjamin was acquitted at the subsequent trial, if I've read it right, and James Eade was convicted.
There's also a case involving the mill at Grundisburgh - dispute over fixtures on leaving.
The Ipswich Journal 22 April 1887
Finally, on a mill-related note, the Bury and Norwich Post of 4th April 1827 has:
"On the 17th ult. a mill was blown down at Framsden of this county. The sails, top and part of the body were carried wholly off. Fortunately, the miller had left the mill about two minutes before".
[another edit]
Ipswich Journal 4 September 1824 - Lease for sale for newly built tower windmill at Framsden
The Ipswich Journal 13 December 1845 - Framsden post windmill for sale; applications to Thomas Bond
The Suffolk Chronicle 17 July 1847 - Nearly new windmill at Framsden for sale freehold, owned by Thomas Bond.
The Suffolk Chronicle 24 July 1847 - confirmation of success of above sale.
The Suffolk Chronicle 18 December 1852 - Tower windmill at Framsden and dwelling house for sale
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I have (rather belatedly) just across your interesting article on Debenham mill, where you mentioned the name of Robert BOLTON as being the miller.
I thought that you may be interested to know that by 1846 Robert and his family had moved to Bentley (water?) mill. Robert had married a close cousin Harriet ( a common trait in the Bolton family!).
Unfortunately by 1860 both Robert & Harriet had died.
The couples eldest son James married his cousin Sarah and ran the mill until around 1871/72; by 1872 the family (plus two of James' siblings) had emigrated and were found to be living in Flemington, Victoria.
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Interesting thread, I can recall very well climbing up the various ladders to the top of Framsden wind mill when 8 months pregnant in 1975. We often drive past and I wonder how I did that! Confine myself to the lower floors these days ;)
SM ...