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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Matt1979 on Saturday 02 August 14 19:10 BST (UK)

Title: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Matt1979 on Saturday 02 August 14 19:10 BST (UK)
I have been trying to trace a James Miller who was born in Northern Ireland (I am assuming County Antrim) in 1839.  James married Ann Bell in 1864 in Randalstown and they emigrated to Connecticut in 1882/83.  I found on a section of the 1851 Census that the only James Miller who was the same age was living in Carncastle, County Antrim, around 20 miles from Randalstown.

I think it is possible that this is the same James Miller - the marriage record gives his father's name and occupation as John Miller, farmer.  The James Miller on the 1851 Census also had a father called John who was a farmer, but this John Miller was deceased by 1851.  The Marriage record doesn't say that John Miller was deceased, although I am not sure if all Irish marriage records from this era stated whether a groom or bride's father was deceased.

As there are no other James Millers who are the same age, I think I have found the right person but of course I am not 100% sure.  What do you all think about this?  I am new to researching Irish censuses and I am aware that earlier censuses only survive in fragments. 
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: iluleah on Sunday 03 August 14 12:31 BST (UK)
With the  marriage record fathers name would have been asked for so unless he was asked if his father was alive or not it would  not be written unless already known in the church by the parish clerk

http://www.from-ireland.net/griffiths-primary-valuation/antrim/?searchterm=John+miller
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Matt1979 on Sunday 03 August 14 16:32 BST (UK)
Thanks for letting me know and for the link.  I was under the impression that they didn't always record whether a father was deceased.  Is there any way of establishing whether the James Miller in Carncastle in 1851 is the same person who married Ann Bell in Randalstown in 1864.  I have noticed how Irish records seem quite scarce, but I know the situation with the earlier censuses.
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: iluleah on Sunday 03 August 14 18:59 BST (UK)
Like anywhere else the only way is to research find more records and 'hope' that you can make connections by cross referencing the records you find. I often find it very useful to research the siblings of your ancestors  as that often help make connections, such as who were witnesses at marriages, who was visiting the house on census nights.

Lots of Irish records are still within the parish and there are often lots of people with the same names born around the same time.

1839 is pre civil registration so you are unable to even cross reference civil with parish
Randlestown is a lovely place
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/yourplaceandmine/antrim/rtown_viaduct.shtml
http://ireland.anglican.org/information/dioceses/parish/13220

Forgive me, forgot to welcome you to rootschat :( so welcome to rootschat ;D
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: iluleah on Sunday 03 August 14 19:07 BST (UK)
"......................John Millar and his wife Jane Millar nee McGeough in the 1830's in Randalstown.
They were blessed with a son called James and on the 8th July 1864 James married a Ann Bell..............".


A website full of information and photographs, so maybe you can make contact and ask some questions with regards to records http://www.downmemorylane.me.uk/randalstown%20m1.htm

http://www.antrimtown.co.uk/Main%20Menu.htm
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Matt1979 on Sunday 03 August 14 20:59 BST (UK)
Like anywhere else the only way is to research find more records and 'hope' that you can make connections by cross referencing the records you find. I often find it very useful to research the siblings of your ancestors  as that often help make connections, such as who were witnesses at marriages, who was visiting the house on census nights.

Lots of Irish records are still within the parish and there are often lots of people with the same names born around the same time.

1839 is pre civil registration so you are unable to even cross reference civil with parish
Randlestown is a lovely place
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/yourplaceandmine/antrim/rtown_viaduct.shtml
http://ireland.anglican.org/information/dioceses/parish/13220

Forgive me, forgot to welcome you to rootschat :( so welcome to rootschat ;D

Thanks for all the details and thanks for welcoming me  :).  I think it might be quite difficult to find any relatives of James Miller, but at least the downmemorylane website could provide more information.
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Elwyn Soutter on Sunday 03 August 14 22:21 BST (UK)
The name James Millar/Miller is very common in Co. Antrim. There’s 148 of them in the 1901 census.

I’d be careful about assuming that the James Miller you have found in Carncastle/Cairncastle is the same man who married in Randalstown. Most of the 1851 census of Co. Antrim was destroyed in 1922 and only a small fragment survives. (Probably less than 5%). Consequently the James in Carncastle could well have been just one of a hundred others of the same name in the county, whose details are lost. Unless you have some other evidence linking the Carncastle one to Randalstown, I’d be inclined to disregard it.

Regarding whether a father would be shown as deceased on a marriage certificate, in my experience, in Ireland they rarely bothered to record that information. You do occasionally see “dcd” but mostly you don’t. Just the father’s name whether alive or dead.  (Other jurisdictions eg Scotland, were meticulous about establishing whether parents were alive or not, but not so in Ireland).

What was James’ townland (address) on the 1864 marriage certificate? Was it Magherabeg? (I think I have a fairly recent photograph of the Miller farmhouse, taken in 2010, which I can send you if you want).

PRONI have this probate abstract:

The Will of John Millar late of Magherabeg County Antrim Farmer deceased who died 4 February 1877 at same place was proved at Belfast by the oath of Jane Millar of Magherabeg (Antrim) same County Widow the Executrix.
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Matt1979 on Monday 04 August 14 16:11 BST (UK)
The name James Millar/Miller is very common in Co. Antrim. There’s 148 of them in the 1901 census.

I’d be careful about assuming that the James Miller you have found in Carncastle/Cairncastle is the same man who married in Randalstown. Most of the 1851 census of Co. Antrim was destroyed in 1922 and only a small fragment survives. (Probably less than 5%). Consequently the James in Carncastle could well have been just one of a hundred others of the same name in the county, whose details are lost. Unless you have some other evidence linking the Carncastle one to Randalstown, I’d be inclined to disregard it.

Regarding whether a father would be shown as deceased on a marriage certificate, in my experience, in Ireland they rarely bothered to record that information. You do occasionally see “dcd” but mostly you don’t. Just the father’s name whether alive or dead.  (Other jurisdictions eg Scotland, were meticulous about establishing whether parents were alive or not, but not so in Ireland).

What was James’ townland (address) on the 1864 marriage certificate? Was it Magherabeg? (I think I have a fairly recent photograph of the Miller farmhouse, taken in 2010, which I can send you if you want).

PRONI have this probate abstract:

The Will of John Millar late of Magherabeg County Antrim Farmer deceased who died 4 February 1877 at same place was proved at Belfast by the oath of Jane Millar of Magherabeg (Antrim) same County Widow the Executrix.

Hi Elwyn,

Thanks very much for all the details.  I was interested to see the reference to John Millar and the James Millar I have been searching for was the one from Magherabeg.  It seems possible that the John Millar who died in 1877 was his father, but I noticed the difference in spelling.  Normally, I have found many examples of both Millar and Miller in marriage indexes, so if this John Miller was James's father, then I am uncertain whether they would have misspelt his name.

I have been searching for people with the name Miller/Millar who married at Randalstown, but I have only found one other from around the same period James Miller was married.  I think it will prove difficult tying to find brothers or sisters of James Miller.

It is very interesting to hear about the photo of the farmhouse, I would like to see a copy, please.

Thanks, Matt.
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Matt1979 on Monday 04 August 14 16:20 BST (UK)
"......................John Millar and his wife Jane Millar nee McGeough in the 1830's in Randalstown.
They were blessed with a son called James and on the 8th July 1864 James married a Ann Bell..............".


A website full of information and photographs, so maybe you can make contact and ask some questions with regards to records http://www.downmemorylane.me.uk/randalstown%20m1.htm

http://www.antrimtown.co.uk/Main%20Menu.htm

Sorry, I only just saw the information about John Miller marrying Jane McGeough - I will check out the section of the website right away - thanks very much for this.  It sounds like this is the same family, but I noticed the different spelling.  The date of the marriage is certainly correct.
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Elwyn Soutter on Monday 04 August 14 16:33 BST (UK)
I really wouldn’t worry about the spelling of the surname. No-one bothered about a single “correct” spelling in the 1800s. Expect it to vary.

If you send me a pm with your e-mail address, I’ll send you the picture of the Miller house. I also have a picture of the former Bell house on the Castle Rd (now coincidentally owned by a Mr Miller, but not connected to your line I think), plus the church where the couple married.

I know of someone else who was researching these two families about 4 years ago. I’ll give you the details.

5 Miller/Millar households in Magherabeg in Griffiths Valuation in 1862. Likewise in the 1901 census. Some, indeed perhaps all of them, will be related to each other.

The revaluation records show John Millar on plot 27 in Magherabeg. That changes to Jane in 1878 following his death and then to Mathew in 1885 (indicating Jane died around then too). Here’s Mathew and family in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Sharvogues/Magherabeg/920239/

John Millar’s will (which is on-line on the PRONI site) confirms Mathew is his son and was bequeathed the farm. So Mathew is a brother to your James Millar who married Ann Bell.  The will mentions your James (who got £25), dau Mary who got £100,  dau Eliza Fallon who got £100 and dau Isabella Collins who got £25.

Mathew’s name appears against the farm through until 1929 when the series of revaluation records ceases.

Here’s the other 4 farms near to “your” farm.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Sharvogues/Magherabeg/920240/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Sharvogues/Magherabeg/920247/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Sharvogues/Magherabeg/920236/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Sharvogues/Magherabeg/920237/


Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Matt1979 on Monday 04 August 14 20:41 BST (UK)
Thanks very much for all the details - this is really fascinating.  I will send a private message later with my e-mail address.

I remembered after you mentioned the different spellings of Miller that I have also come across inaccurate spellings on censuses. 

James Miller wasn't a relative of mine, by the way.  He, or rather one of his daughters, is connected to an American family I am researching.

Some of my ancestors, whose family name Thorne, had their name misspelt as Thorn or Thorns on one or two censuses.  Even my great-great grandad was registered as Joseph "Thorns" instead of Joseph Thorne.
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Matt1979 on Wednesday 06 August 14 12:00 BST (UK)
I have seen marriage certificates for the Miller family on the General Register Office for Northern Ireland website and I found that both the bride and groom couldn't write - the certificates have "the mark" of the bride and groom as a cross.  I know many people couldn't read and write in the nineteenth century and I have the impression that with farming families, as soon as the children were old enough, they went to work on the farm.

It is also noticeable that the bride's occupation was never recorded, I am assuming that she would have worked on the farm, although Elwyn has told me that farmer's daughters in Randalstown often made corsets.
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Elwyn Soutter on Wednesday 06 August 14 14:54 BST (UK)

It is also noticeable that the bride's occupation was never recorded, I am assuming that she would have worked on the farm, although Elwyn has told me that farmer's daughters in Randalstown often made corsets.

I don't think corsets making was a normal occupation for farmers daughters. Just that I know that in this particular case two of them did run such a business from the farm. Taking advantage of the fact that it was a busy road, for many years there was a big sign up by the farm, advertising their products.
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Matt1979 on Wednesday 06 August 14 20:57 BST (UK)

It is also noticeable that the bride's occupation was never recorded, I am assuming that she would have worked on the farm, although Elwyn has told me that farmer's daughters in Randalstown often made corsets.

I don't think corsets making was a normal occupation for farmers daughters. Just that I know that in this particular case two of them did run such a business from the farm. Taking advantage of the fact that it was a busy road, for many years there was a big sign up by the farm, advertising their products.

This is interesting.  I think it was typical how they didn't record a bride's occupation if she had one.
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Matt1979 on Monday 25 August 14 20:59 BST (UK)
I have been looking for Magerabeg recently on Google Maps and I can't find it as a place name.  All I can find is Magerabeg Road that leads north from Craigstown Road.  Did the name Magherabeg refer to the name of the road in Victorian times?

I have also had contact with James Miller's descendant and an odd fact I found was that his grave says he was born in 1835, yet his ages on the 1900 and 1910 United States censuses show that he was born in 1838 or 1839.

It was also intersting to see that a number of people on the censuses for the Magerabeg area couldn't read or write.
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 25 August 14 21:14 BST (UK)
Up until about 40 years ago there wouldn't have been road names- everyone would have used their townland as a address (which is why that's an important detail when researching Irish history).

When the councils brought in road names they often, but not always, used the local townland names.

Have you tried searching for Magherabeg (the correct spelling)?
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Matt1979 on Monday 25 August 14 21:46 BST (UK)
Up until about 40 years ago there wouldn't have been road names- everyone would have used their townland as a address (which is why that's an important detail when researching Irish history).

When the councils brought in road names they often, but not always, used the local townland names.

Have you tried searching for Magherabeg (the correct spelling)?

Thanks for the details - I wasn't aware of how there were no road names and I previously didn't know about townlands in Ireland.  I did search using the Correct spelling of Magherabeg - the wrong spelling in  my past was just a typing error :).
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: iluleah on Tuesday 26 August 14 09:24 BST (UK)
Magherabeg townland is in Dromore parish, Dromore is County Down and Magherabeg  means 'small plain' in a county that is called a 'basket of eggs' because of all the drumlins ( small hills that make it look like a basket of eggs)

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/MAPS/DromoreTownlands.htm
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: aghadowey on Tuesday 26 August 14 09:32 BST (UK)
It's Magherabeg in Drummaul civil parish, County Antrim that is needed  :-\ Seanruad site lists 5 townlands called Magherabeg in Ireland.

This map might help-
http://family.kiwicelts.com/21_Places_and_History/Place_Antrim.html#Drummaul
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: iluleah on Tuesday 26 August 14 09:56 BST (UK)
There is a Magherabeg Antrim http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1636745
and one in Galway ROI http://www.townlands.ie/galway/kilcummin/magherabeg/ and likely others as you will often see the same names used in different areas of the country

http://www.ulsterplacenames.org/illustrations_of_townlands_in_maps.htm
http://www.geographyinaction.co.uk/Townlands/PLandunits.html
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: aghadowey on Tuesday 26 August 14 14:26 BST (UK)
The original post says-

I have been trying to trace a James Miller who was born in Northern Ireland (I am assuming County Antrim) in 1839.  James married Ann Bell in 1864 in Randalstown ...
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Matt1979 on Tuesday 26 August 14 20:53 BST (UK)
The original post says-

I have been trying to trace a James Miller who was born in Northern Ireland (I am assuming County Antrim) in 1839.  James married Ann Bell in 1864 in Randalstown ...

Thanks.  I was asking about Magherabeg because it was given as James Miller's address and I was uncertain at first about why I couldn't find the name on Google Maps.
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: Matt1979 on Tuesday 26 August 14 20:54 BST (UK)
There is a Magherabeg Antrim http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1636745
and one in Galway ROI http://www.townlands.ie/galway/kilcummin/magherabeg/ and likely others as you will often see the same names used in different areas of the country

http://www.ulsterplacenames.org/illustrations_of_townlands_in_maps.htm
http://www.geographyinaction.co.uk/Townlands/PLandunits.html

Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: iluleah on Tuesday 26 August 14 21:01 BST (UK)
Quote
I was asking about Magherabeg because it was given as James Miller's address and I was uncertain at first about why I couldn't find the name on Google Maps.

It isn't easy in Ireland they often have lots of places named exactly the same, same as roads, you can find 4 completely separate roads in the same village all called the same name and very possibly at least another road named the same in neighbouring towns/villages.

As they married in Randalstown it is more likely that is where you are looking, although you never know ::) At least you have alternatives to look in
Title: Re: James Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: shellyesq on Thursday 11 September 14 18:31 BST (UK)
I have also had contact with James Miller's descendant and an odd fact I found was that his grave says he was born in 1835, yet his ages on the 1900 and 1910 United States censuses show that he was born in 1838 or 1839.

That kind of discrepancy is not too unusual.  He might not have been the person giving the information to the census, he may have given others the impression that he was younger than he actually was, or maybe he wasn't sure of his actual age.  I've seen people who have years of birth fluctuating from document to document, and it seems to be especially common among Irish immigrants for whatever reason.
Title: Miller born in County Antrim in 1839
Post by: GeneDigger on Tuesday 01 August 17 15:00 BST (UK)
While this does not relate to James Millar it does relate to the Millar's of Magherabeg.
Has anyone identified the Annie E/Anne Eliza Millar from the 1901/1911 Magherabeg/Sharvogues census?  Entry is posted below.  According to her obit she was 102 years of age at the time of her death and resided at her farm in Magherabeg/Randalstown.  She had 6 living children-3 who had gone to America and a son who died 6 months prior to her death.  A daughter was residing with her when she died.  Ann Eliza member of O. C. Presbyterian Church Randalstown.  I have no date on this newspaper clipping but estimate her death ca 1938 based on the age of 65 yrs in 1901.

1911 Census-Magherabeg Sharvogues house 26 2nd class 3rooms
Robert Millar 47 yr head farmer Pres single
William J 51yr brother farmer Pres single
Mary J 42 yr sister Pres single
Annie E Millar 79 yr mother Pres widow
Annie Robinson 14 yr niece Pres b Co Tyrone single

 1901 - #15  landholder Robt Miller
Anne Eliza 65yr head widow retd farmer Pres    b ca 1836
William John 43yr son farmer not mar Pres    b ca 1858
Robert 39yr son farmer not mar Pres      b ca 1862
Mary Jane 34yr dau not mar Pres      b ca 1867
Agnes 24yr dau not mar Pres         b ca 1877
Annie Robinson 4yr grdau Pres can’t read   b ca 1897

Obit age 102 so maybe 1938

Georgia