RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Wave Watcher on Tuesday 29 July 14 16:40 BST (UK)
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My grandfather's brother married a Belgium lady in Brussels in 1925. I would like to research her Belgium family. Has anyone successfully searched Belgium records and could they suggest how. I would like to be able to search on line, potential problem, I do not speak or read French or Flemish.
Hope some one can help me, the Wave Watcher
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I may be able to help you. What was her full name, age and place of birth?
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Oops, almost forgot. Religion????
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Hi,
There are some Belgian records on FamilySearch.org:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list/?page=1&countryId=1927071
Nanny Jan
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:
I may be able to help you. What was her full name, age and place of birth?
Hi mygirlbill, thanks for your response
The lady in question Madeleine Eugenie Emilie Stephany was a Catholic, she was born Antwerp 13th June 1898 died Chelmsford 1966. I know Madeleine life story I want to discover the life stories of Madeleine's parents and their siblings and also the life stories of Madeleine's grandparents and their siblings.
Stephany Family:-
Madeleine father: Emile (possibly Kasia Ferdinand) Stephany was probably born in Antwerp in 1860s, he married Madeleine mother: Alice Florentine Josephine de la Montagne most likely in Antwerp in 1890s.
Emile & Alice Stephany had two children Madeleine and Henri Robert Pierre Jean Baptiste Stephany.
Emile Stephany died probably in Antwerp in c1907.
After Emile's death Alice Stephany married widower Emile Leonard Henri van Oosterzee on the 29th July 1909 in the Brussels district of Ixelles. Emile van Oosterzee first wife was Alice's sister Marie Louise de la Montagne.
Emile Leonard Henri van Oosterzee died c1930s
Alice Florentine Josephine van Oosterzee formerly Stephany nee de la Montagne died c1939.
Marie Louise van Oosterzee nee de la Montagne died c1907.
de la Montagne Family:
Alice also had a brother, Emile de la Montagne born 22nd October 1873 died 1956, Emile was a renowned Belgian painter and pastellist of portraits, genre scenes and still-lifes.
This is all I know about Madeleine's parents and siblings, I know nothing of Madeleine's grandparents and their siblings.
If this was an English family, using the Census and BMD Civil registrations I could establish the key dates and facts of their lives, however, as they are Belgium I do not know where to start.
I hope you can help me.
Best Regards the Wave Watcher
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Hi,
There are some Belgian records on FamilySearch.org:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list/?page=1&countryId=1927071
Nanny Jan
Hi Nanny Jan
Thanks for your response, I have previously search FamilySearch,org for Belgian relatives, which proved unsuccessful.
Best regards Wave watcher
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Hi Wave watcher,
Welcome to RootsChat.
Public Archives in the Netherlands and in Belgium use to have excellent content online.
If there is no English version of their websites you should use the Google translator.
http://www.felixarchief.be/Stad-FelixArchief/Publicatiekanalen/Stad/Stad-FelixArchief/Website-FelixArchief/Website-FelixArchief-Hoofdnavigatie/Content-oude-site-Archief-raadplegen/Content-oude-site-Archief-raadplegen-Zoeken-naar-personen.html (http://www.felixarchief.be/Stad-FelixArchief/Publicatiekanalen/Stad/Stad-FelixArchief/Website-FelixArchief/Website-FelixArchief-Hoofdnavigatie/Content-oude-site-Archief-raadplegen/Content-oude-site-Archief-raadplegen-Zoeken-naar-personen.html)
Best regards
Rudolf
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Many of the Belgian records on familysearch are not fully indexed/name searchable.
Here is the direct link for the Antwerp area civil registration:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/2138481
Rather than searching click "Browse through 2,978,372 images". You are looking for "Antwerpen" (for the city) - you may need to check in these record for both French and Dutch spellings of place names. You will also need to learn some of the basic words (these records will be in Dutch, in other areas you will get French), e.g. numbers and for example "Geboorten" = births, "Tienjarige tafels " = 10 year indexes, but the civil records follow a fairly set format. There is a list of key words here: https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Netherlands_Language_and_Languages
There is a yearly index at the back for each year, and sure enough, Madeline Eugenie Jean Emilie Stephany is listed in "Geboorten 1898" (3664 is the number of her birth record).
This is hopefully a direct link to her birth record:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01960/
There is a "Tienjarige tafels" image set for 1891-1900 which looks to be all marriages. There is only one Stephany marriage in it which is for Madeline's parents.
year 1896 act 1083
Huwelijken 1896 image 274
With luck another direct link:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01961/
Emilius Maria Ferdinandus Stephany (latin form of his name, the "Maria" is not unusual as a baptismal name). My Dutch is not good (the vast majority of my Belgian lot original from French-speaking areas), but it seems they were both from Antwerp and that brother Emile de la Montagne was a witness to the marriage.
As well as the Huwelijken (marriages) you should check out the Huwelijksbijlagen (marriage supplements) where available. These are records basically of all the documentation the couple supplied to get married - can include extracts of birth records, death records for previous spouses or parents (to establish freedom to marry or who has the right to give consent to marry for a minor), checks that the husband hadn't ducked out of national service, etc. Emile and Alice's marriage supplements start here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01962/
1) A document from a notary public confirming that Emile's widowed mother, resident in Saint Nicholas, Flandre, consented to the marriage
2) extract death record for Alice's mother
3) extract birth record for Alice
4) extract death record for Emile's father
5) extract birth record for Emile
6) Documentation of Emile's military service (national service).
You should go back and find the originals of the birth/death records as well. I hope I've given you a start, but I do encourage you to try and familiarise yourself with the record format. They are not too difficult to use and have a lot more information in them than English records!
Censuses/population registers were taken in Belgium but are seldom used for the simple reason that there are few indexes and searching a place like Antwerp by hand just isn't very feasible.
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Hi Wave watcher,
Welcome to RootsChat.
Public Archives in the Netherlands and in Belgium use to have excellent content online.
If there is no English version of their websites you should use the Google translator.
http://www.felixarchief.be/Stad-FelixArchief/Publicatiekanalen/Stad/Stad-FelixArchief/Website-FelixArchief/Website-FelixArchief-Hoofdnavigatie/Content-oude-site-Archief-raadplegen/Content-oude-site-Archief-raadplegen-Zoeken-naar-personen.html (http://www.felixarchief.be/Stad-FelixArchief/Publicatiekanalen/Stad/Stad-FelixArchief/Website-FelixArchief/Website-FelixArchief-Hoofdnavigatie/Content-oude-site-Archief-raadplegen/Content-oude-site-Archief-raadplegen-Zoeken-naar-personen.html)
Best regards
Rudolf
Hi Rudolf
Thank you for your help, I look forward to searching the website which you have recommended.
Best Regards Wave Watcher
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Many of the Belgian records on familysearch are not fully indexed/name searchable.
Here is the direct link for the Antwerp area civil registration:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/2138481
Rather than searching click "Browse through 2,978,372 images". You are looking for "Antwerpen" (for the city) - you may need to check in these record for both French and Dutch spellings of place names. You will also need to learn some of the basic words (these records will be in Dutch, in other areas you will get French), e.g. numbers and for example "Geboorten" = births, "Tienjarige tafels " = 10 year indexes, but the civil records follow a fairly set format. There is a list of key words here: https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Netherlands_Language_and_Languages
There is a yearly index at the back for each year, and sure enough, Madeline Eugenie Jean Emilie Stephany is listed in "Geboorten 1898" (3664 is the number of her birth record).
This is hopefully a direct link to her birth record:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01960/
There is a "Tienjarige tafels" image set for 1891-1900 which looks to be all marriages. There is only one Stephany marriage in it which is for Madeline's parents.
year 1896 act 1083
Huwelijken 1896 image 274
With luck another direct link:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01961/
Emilius Maria Ferdinandus Stephany (latin form of his name, the "Maria" is not unusual as a baptismal name). My Dutch is not good (the vast majority of my Belgian lot original from French-speaking areas), but it seems they were both from Antwerp and that brother Emile de la Montagne was a witness to the marriage.
As well as the Huwelijken (marriages) you should check out the Huwelijksbijlagen (marriage supplements) where available. These are records basically of all the documentation the couple supplied to get married - can include extracts of birth records, death records for previous spouses or parents (to establish freedom to marry or who has the right to give consent to marry for a minor), checks that the husband hadn't ducked out of national service, etc. Emile and Alice's marriage supplements start here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01962/
1) A document from a notary public confirming that Emile's widowed mother, resident in Saint Nicholas, Flandre, consented to the marriage
2) extract death record for Alice's mother
3) extract birth record for Alice
4) extract death record for Emile's father
5) extract birth record for Emile
6) Documentation of Emile's military service (national service).
You should go back and find the originals of the birth/death records as well. I hope I've given you a start, but I do encourage you to try and familiarise yourself with the record format. They are not too difficult to use and have a lot more information in them than English records!
Censuses/population registers were taken in Belgium but are seldom used for the simple reason that there are few indexes and searching a place like Antwerp by hand just isn't very feasible.
Hi jorose
Thank you for your response and suggestions of where to search, I guess it will be slow at first, but hopefully successful once I get use to the format.
Best Regards Wave Watcher
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great find Jorose, especially the marriage supplements
a short translation
birth cert n° 3664
Madeleine Eugenie Jeanne Emilie STEPHANY born in Antwerp 13 June 1898 at 18 pm
parents - Emilius Maria Ferdinandus STEPHANY, employee (bediende, likely clerck), 29 years old, born in Antwerp
- Alice Florentina Josephien DE LA MONTAGNE, 28 years old, born in Antwerp
declarant - father of the child
witnesses - Franciscus VERBERT, clerck, 29 years old
- Julianus VERSCHAEREN, clerck, 29 years old
in the margin - Mechelsesteenweg n° 51, section 6 (home address of the parents)
- marriage cert of the parents : 1896 n° 1083
marriage cert n° 1083
Antwerp 27 June 1896 at 11 am, marriage banns 7 June 1896 Antwerp
groom - Emilius Maria Ferdinandus STEPHANY, born 30 August 1868 Antwerp, clerck, address : Vincentiusstraat n° 15, section 8
parents - Joannes Baptista STEPHANY, deceased
- Emilia Ludovica LOUPART, without profession, residing at Antwerp
(according the marriage annexes she was in the hospital Sint-Antonius at Sint-Niklaas)
bride - Alice Florentina Josephina DE LA MONTAGNE, born 11 December 1869 Antwerp, without profession, address : Zuiderlei n° 138, section 8
parents - Petrus Alexius DE LA MONTAGNE, without profession, residing at Antwerp, present and consenting
- Josephina Barbara Eugenia BERGYS, deceased
witnesses - Emilius DE LA MONTAGNE, 23 years old, painter, brother of the bride
- Carolus GEROK, 38 years old, merchant
- Carolus STEPHANY, 32 years old, lawyer, brother of the groom
- Adolphus (KEINNA), 44 years old, director of the water distribution
- all residing at Antwerp
- prenuptial agreement 24 June 1896 by notary GHEYSENS, residing at Antwerp
Most of the records for Belgium on Familysearch are from the civil registration-period : from June 1796 to ca 1910.
Those records and the records pre civil registration-period (parish registers) are also available on the Belgian State Archives.
To search / see these records you need to register but that’s free.
http://search.arch.be/nl/tips/98-parochieregisters (parish registers)
http://search.arch.be/nl/tips/101-burgerlijke-stand (civil registration)
a very good dutch alternative link with a nicely ranked list with direct links to the Dutch and Belgian records on Familysearch :
http://zoekakten.nl/indexbe.php
- click on AW (= provincie Antwerp)
- click on the link Antwerpen
- tick the preferred box (tafels = index / Geboorten = births / Huwelijkafkondigingen = banns / Huwelijken en Echtscheidingen = marriages and divorces / Huwelijkbijlagen = marriage annexes / Overlijden = decease)
- and then click on Maak een keuze (= make a choice)
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Unfortunately my computer did dummy spit and until I get it seen to I only have a wee bit of information for you send from a friends computer.
Madeleine was born at 51 Mechelschest Street (Rue) Antwerpen. At the time of her birth her father was 29 years old born 1869/70 and her mother was 28 years old. Emilius Maria Ferdinandus Stephany was by occupation a clerk and the son of Joannes Baptista Stephany and Emillia Ludovica Loupart.
Joannes Baptista was in 1877 living in 51 St. Thomas Street (Rue) Antwerpen and his occupation was "Professeur de piano." I don't do French but I guess it means he was an expert in pianos??
That's as far as I got before the dummy spit. Will get back to it all again once I get computer seen to. Cheers!!
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Carolus Maria Ludovicus Stephany son of Joannes Baptista Stephany
Born: 25 February 1865 in Antwerpen.
Died: 5 March 1904 in Antwerpen aged 39
Studied law at the university of Antwerpen and graduated with law degree 10 July 1888. Practised law from 1888 until his death in 1904.
From 1890 to 1896 lived at 15 Vincentius St. Antwerpen
From 1896 to 1898 lived at 9 Leopoldplaats Antwerpen.
Was member of political party from 5 July 1898 until his death
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Hi,
"Professeur de piano" = piano teacher
"Professeur" = teacher (school)
Cheers!!
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Hello!
My query is not related to the present topic, but I wonder if anyone can help please?
I am looking for the birth of ANTIONETTE VAN DERVELDE around 1863 in Belgium, I'm afraid I have no idea where. Her father's name was John. She married Frederick John Vinall in Liverpool, UK in 1897 and I have records of her from then on. I cannot find any trace of her entering the UK or leaving (she died in Nice), nor does she seem to have been in the UK in 1891. Any help would be very much appreciated.
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Hi annemaj
I started this chat with a request for help and received a lot of good advice, since then I have been successively searching my Belgium family members, however, unlike you I knew they came from Antwerp. I have written below a guide on how to search for Antwerp records, the province of Antwerp has 160 municipalities of which Antwerp itself is one of these, this means if she was born in the province of Antwerp you have a choice of 160 municipalities to choose from. If she was not born in Antwerp province you have another 8 provinces to choose from with probably +1400 municipalities in total.
A Guide for Searching Belgium Family History on the Internet
To search for Belgium family records, I have been advised to use the website of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Their web address is: http://familysearch.org
The Belgium Civil Registrations that they hold cover the period from the early 1600s to 1909 and are split into the following nine provinces, Antwerp, Brabant, East Flanders, Hainaut, Limburg, Liege, Luxembourg, Namur and West Flanders.
Each province consists of a number of municipalities, for example the province of Antwerp has 160 municipalities of which the city of Antwerp is one of these municipalities.
Each municipality is responsible for its own civil registrations. These are held in yearly books, one each for births, marriages and deaths.
All of the civil registration books have been scanned onto micro-film, however, the records are not computer searchable, they have to be searched manually.
So far I have only briefly searched the Antwerp municipality registers, these are in Flemish / Dutch and are split into the following groups.
Geboorten (Births)
Huwelijken (Marriages)
Overlijden (Deaths)
Huwelijksbijlagen (Marriage Supplement Records)
Huwelijkgafkondigingen (Marriage Banns)
Tienjarige tafels (10 year index for births, marriages and deaths)
Each book has an index which lists the names of the persons in the register along with the number of their particular record. From 1824 the index is located at the front of the book, for multi-year books the index is located at the beginning of each year. From 1882 the index is located at the back of the book.
From 1824 onwards the index is in alphabetical order, however, the names of any given letter are listed in the date of their registration order (from the 1st of January to the 31st December), this means looking for Stephany, you have to go through the whole list of S’s.
From 1833 onward the index and also the names are listed in alphabetical order.
This all sounds rather complicated, however, once you get use to the record formats they are not too difficult to use.
Guide for opening the website and accessing the Belgium Records.
Enter the following website address into goggle: http://familysearch.org
When the Family Search website opens click on > Search
This opens the Discover Your Family History page, now click on > Browse All Published Collections
This opens the Historical Records Collections, scroll down and click on > Belgium Antwerp Civil Registration 1609-1909
This opens the Belgium Antwerp Civil Registration 1609-1909 page click on > Browse through 2,978,372 images
You are now on the page which lists the province of Antwerp 160 municipalities, click on > Antwerpen.
This will take you to the page which lists all the Antwerpen: Record Type and Years.
Hope this helps, best regards Wave Watcher
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There is a Antoinette Van Nedervelde born in Brussels, fathers name ‘Jean’ Baptiste (see link below), but there may be many more and there is no central database for BMD’s in Belgium. So you really need more details. On the death cert (online up to 1936) of her husband are his birthplace, birthdate and parents listed and his wife’s surname is spelled as : Vannedervelde. If you know her death date you might be able to apply for the cert, not sure for Nice.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019wl/
N° 1168, The 11th day of the month March from the year 1863, at 11:00 AM
Birth cert of Antoinette Van Nedervelde, born the 10th of this month at 17:00 PM, rue de la Coupe, (section 4 ?) n° 23, daughter of Jean Baptiste Van Nedervelde, day laborer, born in Elst, and from Maria Therese De Temmerman, born in Elst, spouses, residing at the same address.
According the statement of the father, 42 years old
In the presence of Laurent Sanders, tailor, 44 years old, and Guillaume Van Mol, terrassier, 58 years old, residing in this city. The father and the second witness have declared they could not sign as being illiterate, the first witness has signed
established at the Town Hall by us, the undersigned, Henri Vandermeerens, civil registrar of the city of Brussels, which document was read out.
Groetjes
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Thank you both so much for your replies, I shall try and follow up. I had found the name in East Flanders so I think I will make that my place of research.
I had hopes that it was the right Antoinette but her father is described as a 'wine merchant' on her marriage certificate which doesn't really go with a 'day labourer'!! Her husband is also described as a 'wine merchant' even though he actually ran a pub, so perhaps she didn't want to be outdone. I know just how many porkies they told in those days!
Thanks again, help very much appreciated.
annemaj
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Hello again,
I've just realised that you refer to her husband's death certificate, do the details match the ones I have? Husband was Frederick John Vinall. I'm afraid I don't understand what it means by "online up to 1936". Where online? Frederick John Vinall died in Nice in 1934 and Antoinette herself died in 1943 in a concentration camp in France, at least that is what I am told. Both their wills were probated in England.
Sorry to have to ask again as I do appreciate the help.
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Yes, it’s definitely the same Frederick John Vinall (deceased 23th May 1934)
The death cert is on the Archives Départementales des Alpes maritimes
up to 1936 : death certs for Nice are online up to and including 1936
direct link to the cert
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019wx/ (go to image 416)
among other information there are also newspapers online under the heading Archives Bibliographiques : the link ‘ presses anciennes’ then Choisir ‘Petit Niçois (Le) - 1881 à 1943’ then choose a année ( year) and click on 'lancer la recherche'
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019wy/ (Archives départementales des Alpes-Maritimes - Geneawiki)
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Thank you SO much for these links, absolutely brilliant and much, much more than I could have hoped for. I now have Frederick John Vinall's death certificate. I don't have much hope of finding Antionette's, why she was in a 'concentration camp' is a puzzle. I don't think it was a camp as such, as she wrote a letter in 1942 from 'Hotel Central Borguez, Vaucluse' stating that she was "not allowed to leave without permission." It all sounds a bit odd!
Could I please ask one more favour? I need to find the niece of Antionette Vinall nee Van Nedervelde. She is Marie Jeanne Van Nedervelde born about 1882/3 in Brussels, daughter of (I think) Karel-Lodewijk Van Nedervelde and Elizabeth Denayer. I think Karel was Antoinette's brother.
As always, help very much appreciated. Being out here in Australia makes it very hard to know where to start, but the links have been wonderful, so thank you again.
annemaj
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Sorry, most of the registers of the periode 1871-1899 for Brussels-Capital-Region (the City of Brussels is one of the municipalities) are not online yet.
The better news; there’s someone on Geneanet whose wife is a descendant of Karel Lodewijk Van Nedervelde. This Karel Lodewijk was married with Elisabeth De Nayer, was the son of Jean Baptiste Van Nedervelde and brother of Antoinette. There are no further details about Antoinette. Maybe you can contact this person he may have additional information.
http://gw.geneanet.org/bartfaingnaert?lang=en&pz=bart&nz=faingnaert&ocz=0&p=jean+baptiste&n=van+nedervelde&oc=1
The marriage Van Nedervelde - De Nayer was in Sint-Jans-Molenbeek (municipality of Brussels-Capital-Region) in 1884, the marriage cert isn’t available online but the marriage supplements are on FamilySearch including a birth extract of your Marie Jeanne Van Nedervelde (born De Nayer).
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019x9/ birth cert Charles Louis Van Nedervelde
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019xa/ marriage supplements Van Nedervelde - De Nayer image 1349 / 1363
marriage supplements : (date : dd/mm/yy)
image 1350 - birth extract Charles Louis Van Nedervelde ° Brussels 03/04/1860
image 1351 - proof of indigence Charles Louis Van Nedervelde
image 1352 - proof of residence (at Sint-Jans-Molenbeek) Charles Louis Van Nedervelde
image 1353 - militia cert of Charles Louis Van Nedervelde
image 1354 - Death extract Marie Therese Temmerman + Brussels 09/09/1866 (widow of Jean Francois Goffa and wife of Jean Baptiste Van Nedervelde)
image 1355 - the marriage publication from Brussels
image 1356 - birth extract Elisabeth De Nayer ° Sint-Joost-Ten-Node 18/09/1860
image 1357 - proof of residence (at Sint-Jans-Molenbeek) Elisabeth De Nayer
image 1358 - proof of indigence Elisabeth De Nayer
image 1359 - Death extract Pierre De Nayer + Brussels 26/02/1883, widower of Jeanne Vandenput
image 1360 - Death extract Jeanne Vandenput + Brussels 13/07/1866, wife of Pierre De Nayer
image 1361 / 1362 - birth extract Charles Louis Van Nedervelde ° St-Jans Molenbeek 21/12/1880 son of Charles Louis and Elise De Nayer
image 1363 - birth extract Marie Jeanne De Nayer ° Brussels 09/03/1883 daughter of Elise De Nayer
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&countryId=1927071
search / browse through the Belgian registers on FamilySearch
for Brussels-Capital-Regio : click on ‘Belgian, Brabant, Civil Registration, 1582-1912, then on ‘Browse through 3,597,304 images’ and then on ‘Brussel’ or the municipality you want.
or via the alternative link where the Dutch and Belgian records (available on FamilySearch) are more clearly arranged
http://zoekakten.nl/prov.php?id=BR click on Brussel, then tick the box next to ‘Tafels or Geboorten or ..... and then on ‘Maak een keuze’
groetjes, Leen
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Once again, thank you so much, I am following all links and your nice, clear instructions.
It is good that you have confirmed that Karel-Lodewijk and Antionette are brother and sister, and through going into the link to the guy's family tree, I found that she has two other brothers as well.
From the information that you have given me and looking at the records, there is only one hitch.
He has Karel-Lodewijk marrying Elizabeth Denayer which has to be a mistake as she married Charles-Louis born 1860, in 1884. Charles-Louis is another brother, who has been missed out on his tree.
Antionette had a niece, Marie-Jeanne Van Nedervelde born about 1882/3, who I think was the daughter of her brother Charles-Louis (the one missed out) and Elizabeth Denayer. They also had a son Charles-Louise born 1880 as I found, thanks to you. It seems both children were born before the marriage as Marie-Jeanne is given her mother's maiden name and no father.
I wonder if you could possibly translate image 1361 please.
Thank you so much once again, I could never have found all this information on my own. I know it's a long shot, but if you ever want anything looked up here in Australia or the UK, please let me know.
Regards,
annemaj
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First of all, image 1361 is not the birth extract of Charles Louis as I mentioned (my mistake) but the consent to the marriage for Catherine De Nayer.
the translation (understandable I hope, my English is far from perfect)
image 1361 (annex n° 12)
Before Master Notary Judocus Josephus Vandevelde residing at Overijse, has appeared in the presence of the witnesses mentioned below; Mrs Anna Maria Pay, widow of Mr Henry Denayer, without profession, residing at Hoeilaart. Wich appearer hereby declares to consent to the intended marriage between her granddaughter Elisabeth Denaeyer, ironer, residing at Sint-Jans-Molenbeek, Volksstraat /Rue du Peuple n° 24, daughter of the late Petrus Denayer and the late Joanna Vandenput; and Mr Charles Louis Van Nedervelde, trucker, residing at Sint-Jans-Molenbeek, Volksstraat / Rue du Peuple n° 24.
Thereby the appearer gives the permission to all officers of the Civil Registry to solemnise the above mentioned marriage as if she would physically present herself.
Drawn up and legalized on Stamp duty free paper because of indigence according to a certificate presented to us and immediately given back, at Hoeilaart at the home of the appearer, today the twenty-fifth of October eighteen hundred and eighty four in the presence of the requested witnesses Mr Dejonker Guillaume, farmer and Mr Delsaert Joannes Petrus, tailor, both residing at Hoeilaart, who have signed with us Notary, after de reading. The appearer declared not being able to sign by illiteracy.
image 1362 (annex n° 13)
The year 1880, the 21e October is born at Sint-Jans-Molenbeke Charles Louis Van Nedervelde, son of Charles Louis Van Nedervelde and Elise De Nayer.
Now Charles Louis / Karel Lodewijk. Charles Louis is the French version of Karel Lodewijk in Flemisch or Dutch. Karel Lodewijk born in 1860 and Charles Louis born in 1860 are one and the same person. At his birth he was registered as Charles Louis. In that time the Flemisch or French form was depending on the town in wich the child was registered or the civil registration officer. I would think that his parents, both from East Flanders, preferred ‘Karel Lodewijk’. So this Antoinette Van Nedervelde has only two brothers : Jean Baptiste Francois and Charles Louis alias Karel Lodewijk (gosch this is confusing) and one sister : Marie. I searched the records and couldn’t find any others.
Yes Charles Louis ° 1880 and his sister Marie Jeanne ° 1883 are both born before the marriage of their parents.
No problem annemaj that’s RootsChat and thanks for your offer, you never know.
Groetjes
Leen
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Hi Leen,
Thank you once again.
I have access to a huge amount of UK records, so if you need any help don't hesitate to ask.
By the way, your English is as near to perfect as it could get! Thanks for the translation.
I should have picked up on the Karel/Charles thing myself. I only have very rusty schoolgirl French, but that should have been obvious.
Best regards,
Anne
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Hello Leen,
Could I possibly ask you one more favour please? I really need to know the parents of a JEAN-BAPTIST VAN NEDERVELDE born 1821 if possible. I have really tried to find him myself, but information available is not right (from the Van Nedervelde person who has a lot of info. online) He has the parents as Petrus Van Nedervelde and Catharina Beernaert, but they would have been 59 and 48 when he was born, and anyway Catharina died in 1792 (I think). I realise that it probably isn't possible to get this info. otherwise I would have come across it, but I thought it was worth asking. As always, I appreciate any help.
Regard,
Anne
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Hi Anne,
According the marriage cert of Jean Baptiste is the date of birth correct and are the parents the right ones. I didn’t find his birth cert (searched in Elst, in the surrounding municipalities, the birthplace of his mother, alternate spellings, mothers name, etc). There should be an extract in the marriage supplements but the one you need (n° 214) isn’t online yet. More childeren of Van Nedervelde-Beernaert : Isabella VAN NEDERVELDE ° Elst 24/12/1822 and Karel Lodewijk VAN NEDERVELDE ° Elst 03/03/1825.
links to the certs and short translation (date : day/month/year)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a2g/ (marriage VAN NEDERVELDE - DE TEMMERMAN)
cert n° 214 city of Brussels marriage 12/03/1856 at 11:00 AM (marriagepublications 2th and 9th March)
groom : Jean Baptiste VAN NEDERVELDE, born in Elst 04/01/1821, day laborer, residing at Brussels Rue de la Coupe
parents : Pierre VAN NEDERVELDE and Jeanne Catherine BEERNAERT, both deceased
grandparents : last residence and / or place, date of death unknown
bride : Marie Therese DE TEMMERMAN, born in Elst 06/07/1821, greengrocer, residing in Brussels same street, widow of Jean GOFFA deceased 06/03/1854
parents : Joseph DE TEMMERMAN, day laborer, residing in Elst, present and consenting and of de late Benoite DE COCK
witnesses : Nicolas DE GROOT, 68 years old, day laborer / Jean Baptiste DE GROOT, 34 years old, messenger / Joseph GOFFA, 27 years old, cooper / Frederic (…ERIS ?), 32 years old, carpenter / all residing in Brussels
The 2th and 3th witness have signed
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a2h/ (marriage VAN NEDERVELDE - BEERNAERT)
cert n°12 Elst 17/11/1820 at 14:00 PM (marriage publications 5th and 12th November at 10:00 AM)
groom : Pieter Francies VAN NEDERVELDE, born in Elst, 58 years old, farmer, residing in Elst
parents : Joannes Baptiste VAN NEDERVELDE, deceased in Elst 12/04/1813 and Petronilla De Cuykelier deceased in Elst 20/04/1816
bride : Joanne Catherine BEERNAERT, born in Roborst 21/04/1797, 23 years old, spinner, residing in Elst
parents : Pieter Francies BEERNAERT, deceased in Roborst 15/09/1796 and Veronica DE NOELLE, spinner, residing in Roborst, present and consenting
witnesses : Joannes Baptiste VAN WYMEERSCH, 26 years old, notary clerk, residing in Zottegem / Joannes DE VOS, 65 years old, farmer / Josephus DE VOS, 40 years old, shopkeeper / Pieter Francies VAN WAMBEKE, 30 years old, tailor / last three residing in Elst
The bride and her mother are unable to write.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a2i/ (death cert Pieter Francies VAN NEDERVELDE)
cert n° 3 - Elst - registration date : 21/01/1826 at 11:00 AM
date of death : Elst 20/01/1826 at 02:00 AM, at home
the deceased : Pieter Francies VAN NEDERVELDE, born in Elst, 65 years old, farmer, residing in Elst, husband of Joanna Catharina BERNAERD, son of Jan Baptiste and Petronella DE KEUKELEIRE
declarants : Joannes Francies DE VOS, 56 years old, policeman and Petrus Antonius (SI…ENS ?), 55 years old, sacristan, both residing in Elst, neighbors of the deceased
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a2j/ (death cert Joanna Catharina BEERNAERT)
cert n° 8 - Elst - registration date : 11/03/1833 at 19:00 PM
date of death : Elst 11/03/1833 at 10:00 AM, at home
the deceased : Joanna Catharina BEIRNAERT, 38 years old, spinner, residing in Elst, daughter of Francies and Veronica NOYETTE, wife of Josephus VAN CROMBRUGGE
declarants : Josephus DE VOS, 53 years old, farmer and Francies DE VOS, 63 years old, policeman, both residing in Elst, acquaintances of the deceased
(second marriage of Joanna Catharina Beernaert : Elst 24/11/1826 with Josephus VAN CROMBRUGGE)
goeienacht (belgian time)
Leen
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Hello Leen,
Thank you so much once again, this is wonderful and answers a particular question that I couldn't work out. I did try and sort it all out for myself without having to bother you again, and I had actually been able to track down the marriage of Pieter Francies Van Nedervelde and Joanna Catharina Beernaert but that was all it said, not the details that you have been able to give me. I did realise that the other Beernaert had been wrong as she died in 1797, and of course the entry of the right marriage that I found didn't give me ages which was the important thing, so I was completely confused. I also managed to find the births for Elst which I went through, but like you couldn't find an entry for Jean-Baptiste on 4th Jan 1821.
I spent hours trying to go through other records, but not being able to translate them I gave up in the end. I have a translation programme installed, but I think the older records are in Flemish because it wouldn't translate?
Thank you, thank you once again, I now have everything straight (I hope!) and the translations are wonderful.
Very best regards,
Anne
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Hallo Anne,
I just received a copy of Antoinette’s death cert. She definitely is the Antoinette Van Nedervelde born in Brussels in 1863. The cert is from Sorgues, a municipality in the departement Vaucluse, France.
This is the translation, the names are written as in the cert (Nevervelde, Feduck), Goffo was the surname of Therese De Temmerman' first husband.
Civil Registry of Sorgues
The 11th March 1943 at 10 o’clock is deceased at her home avenue du Maréchal Pétain, Antoinette Van Nevervelde, born in Brussels (Belgium) the 10th March 1863, without profession, daughter of the late spouses Jean Baptiste Van Nevervelde and Thérèse Goffo, widow of Feduck Vinall. Drawn up on the aforementioned day at 16 o’clock, according the declaration of Thomas Hutton, 57 years old, without profession at Sorgues who, after the reading, signed with us Eugene Simon, deputy to the mayor of Sorgues, delegated civil registration officer.
Groetjes
Leen
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Hello Leen,
Once again I am in your debt, thank you so much for this information. I am sure that I must owe you for this?
It helps complete what we know of her life.
I have trawled the 'net for any information on the place that she was evidently restricted from leaving during WW2, and that she wrote from: "Hotel Central Borguez, Vaucluse". All I have managed to find is: Vaucluse - Restricted Residence For Civilians.
"CENTRE DE RASSEMBLEMENT DES ETRANGERS" (center for foreigners gathering)
So I gather she was probably in an internment camp. That's OK and makes sense, so I am happy with that.
Please let me know what I owe you, and thank you once again,
Regards,
Anne
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You owe me nothing Anne, it was free of charge, it usually is in France (apart from some exceptions).
I can send you the cert if you wish, just pm me your email.
Yes I know, I couldn’t find anything more about it too. There’s enough about the region during WWII, but nothing why Antoinette would have stayed in a camp. Her death cert listed : ‘décédée en son domicile’, nothing about a camp. There are still many questions but one thing’s for sure, you got thé right family in Brussels.
Groetjes
Leen
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Hi Leen,
Thanks for the reply, I can't begin to tell you how grateful I am for all your help. I just wish I could repay it some way. It certainly is the family I was looking for and I had no idea how to find it!
I would very much like a copy of the death certificate please, but I don't understand what you mean by 'pm' you my email? I'm being very dumb I think!
Anne
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Just want to say a big thank you to Wave Watcher :)
trying to locate a birth in Antwerp and you have made so much sense and easier to look for it. The birth is for a Nellie Elvira Claire DANCKAERT Father Karel DANCKAERT. She was born 5th January 1896 in Antwerp (I just presumed she meant city but now, thanks to Wave Watcher will have to spread search further!)
I do know her father was the Harbour Master at Antwerp so must have lived there at some point. Came to England as Refugee at start of WW!
Thanks
Gaynor
PS Wave Watcher do you know where to locate those things (!) like census returns. Going to try and look for the 1900 census to see if family is there.
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isn’t this your Nellie Elvira Claire ? http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fyd/
cert n° 73 registration 6th January 1896 at 10:00 am, birth 5th january 1896 at 01:00 am Antwerp, Birth cert of Nelly Clara Elvire Petrus, daughter of Carolus Ludovicus DANCKAERT, 28 years old, born in Lillo, public school teacher and of Anna GALLEMAERT, 33 years old, born in Antwerp. Witnesses : Eduardus Gallemaert, 29 years old, afdakagent and Constantinus HENDRICKX, (messenger / courier / dispatcher), both living in Antwerp.
in the margin : Lange Congostraat n° 14, section 5 (their address)
Marriage cert of the Parents. Year 1890, number 1328
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:) :) :) :) Yes it is so happy and thank you sooo much where on earth did you find that I have checked all the records I could find and still couldn't find it so I decided to check the Police Records for 1914 (knew they were in Antwerp then) got to page 109 but here is over 800, just part of seveal groups for 1913-1914 Will be able to go to bed now!!
Once again thank you so much.
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Hi Leen & Wave Watcher
I seem to have got the hang of it ..I thin. Managed to find birth for Carolus in Lillo. Now I am just searching for a marriage re the ref you gave me Leen. Can I just ask you one more thing please. When you sent me the info on Nelly's birth it was transcribed socan you tell me if you used Google Translate or are you, yourself a Dutch speaker. I am finding the records very difficult to understand ::) I might have to type it into Google and get it to translate as I can't see any translate button on site.
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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??? ???
Found a birth & a marriage but tried to translate using Google but some of the words from Dutch to English came out the same. So totally confused. I am wondering if some kind soul would loo at these for me and give me any relevant details for me to carry on. I've posted a request on my facebook page to see if there any Dutch speakers but seems not at the moment. I don't expect people to go to the trouble of a full translation I just would like any relevant details t help me carry on, such as
Marriage: Date (Have got the year)
Any reference to their date/place of birth or parents names
Occupations
Birth: Parents date/place of marriage or ages
ather/Mother Occupations
and any thing else you think would help to go further back.
I have the full references which are
Birth:Carolus Ludovictus Born 1868 He is on Page 258 (of 310) in the 1868 Births for Lillo
Marriage: Antonious Gallemaert to Constantia Janssens Page 1859 295 (of 518 ) 2nd 1/2 of 1858-59 Antwerpen
Many thanks
Gaynor
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Sorry for the late reply, yes I am a ‘Dutch speaker’ (Belgian, Flemish part)
It can be confusing, there’s a list with basic words on familysearch which may help a bit
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Netherlands_Language_and_Languages
the marriage
The 13th of the month September of the year 1890 at 11 o’clock in the morning
Marriage certificate of Carolus Ludovicus DANCKAERT, public
school teacher, born on the 11th April 1867 at Lillo, province
of Antwerp, living here, minor son of Petrus Jacobus
DANCKAERT, without profession and of Josepha Joanna HOEFMANS, both
living here, present and consenting, one side. And Anna GALLEMAERT.
public school teacher, born the 5th December 1862
at Antwerp, province of Antwerp, living there, adult
daughter of Joannes Baptista GALLEMAERT, cabinet maker, living here and of
the late Clara VAN VAETER, the mother of the bride deceased, the other side.
Of which marriage the announcements were done at Antwerp the 30th August last and the 7th September
……………… (standard part) ……….
……… The preliminary documents which were read aloud were the birth certs of the couple, the death cert of the bride’s mother, the consenting of the Commander of the 5th artillery regiment and the consenting
Act from the bride’s father properly registered here on the 2nd September last.
All in the presence of Constantinus DANCKAERT, clerk, 26 years old, brother of the bridegroom,
living here, Engelbertus HAEGHMANS, clerk, 56 years old, uncle of the bridegroom, living
here, of Josephus GALLEMAERT, cabinet maker, 35 years old, brother of the bride,
living here and of Franciscus BLOX, paperhanger, 29 years old, brother in law of the bride,
living here. The appearers have signed with me after the reading. 13 erased words Approved.
and the birth cert
The year 1867, the 12th
April at 10 o’clock in the morning appeared for us Franciscus
Antonius Josephus VERGOUTS, officer of the civil
registration of the municipality Lillo, province of Antwerp : Petrus Jacobus
DANCKAERT, 49 years old, customs officer, living here
who has shown us a child of the
male gender, born in his house situated at Fort
Lillo, section A, yesterday the 11th of this month, at 6 o’clock in the evening,
from him the declarant and from his lawful wife
Josepha Joanna HOEFMANS, without profession, living here,
38 years old, and to which he has declared
he want to give the first names of Carolus Ludovicus.
The aforementioned presentation and declaration was done in the presence of Philipianus
HAESAERTS, public school teacher, 26 years old
and Franciscus Alexander (SNAEKERS ?), post official,
24 years old, both living here.
Whereof this Act, drawn up in dublicate by us in the town hall , and signed after the reading.
Leen
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Blooming Heck (AS we say here in Yorkshire) Leen I didn't expect you to translate all that info, I am very grateful for the time & trouble you have taken. I am going to use that as a guide, as I presume most certificates are standard, plus the list you have given me. When I used google some of the words stayed the same! Maybe I had not noticed when words ended and a new one began. I wish they had been in French as I may have stood a small chance with my schoolgirl French!
It's so frustrating when you can't make sense of something, last night I was even looking thru our telephone book to find a Dutch Church, we have a Swedish Church where my great great Uncle was a translator!!!! but not a Dutch one. My friend's mum Maia Sedgewick's parents were Dutch but we have lost touch and can't remember her married name.
Anyway as least I can now try and find some more info, once again many tanks for all your efforts.
Gaynor
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Hi Wave Watcher
I've been following your instructions! and have had a couple of successes but I just wanted to ask a question. I have been searching all afternoon for two marriages (although I haven't got dates just going back from child's baptism date).
They are a Joannes Baptista GALLEMAERT TO Clara VAN VAETER and a Petrus Jacobus DANCKAERT to Josepha Joanna HOEFMANS
My question is if they appeared in the registers at all then can I just put the names in the Family Search box for Belgium Civil Registrations or would it not show up and is checking the indexes the only way to do it? I tried this way but nothing came up so I wondered if they had maybe come from somewhere else such as Holland/France etc.
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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(to avoid sleepless nights)
see the notation in the margin of the birth certs in Antwerp :
Huwelijks-Akte der Ouders / Marriage cert of the parents - Jaar …. Nr …. / Year …. Number ….
and don’t forget the marriage supplements / huwelijksbijlagen, (if they are available)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fz0/ marriage supplements number 1328, same number as the marriage cert
image 1460 up and including image 1467
image 1460 consenting of Joannes Baptista Gallemaert
image 1461-1462 death extract of Clara VAN VAETER
image 1463 birth extract of Anna GALLEMAERT
image 1464 birth extract of Carolus Ludovicus DANCKAERT
image 1465-1466 consenting of the commander
image 1467 proof of military service
image 1460 of the marriage supplements
The year 1890, the 29th August,
Before us Mr. Petrus Eugenius VAN DE WITTE, notary at Antwerp, has appeared :
Mr Joannes Baptistus HALLEMAERT, cabinet maker, living at the Diepestraat number 40 in Antwerp;. Who declares hereby that he gives his full consent to the intended marriage of his daughter Anna GALLEMAERT, teacher, born at Antwerp on the 5th December 1862, living at Antwerp, born out of his marriage with his late wife Clara VAN VAETER, deceased at Antwerp on the 4th April 1885; - with Mr Karel Lodewijk DANCKAERT, teacher, born at Lillo on the 11th April 1867, living at the Deurnestraat number 108 in Antwerp, son of Petrus Jacobus DANCKAERT, retired customs officer (onderbrigadier) and of Josepha Joanna HOEFMANS, both living at Antwerp.
The appearant declares that the officer of the civil registration has the authority to perform the said marriage on presentation of this document. Whereof this original Act. Drawn up and executed at Antwerp, at the appearant his home, date as above, in the presence of Mr Andreas Joannes VAN DER LINDEN, shop keeper and Mr Joannes Franciscus SOMERS, tin smith, both living at Antwerp, the requested witnesses. And after reading to the appearant, the witnesses have signed with us, notary. The appearant has declared that he is unable to write or sign due to illiteracy.
some translation help http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fyz/ click on the record examples
Leen
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Sleepless nights what's them ;) just back on computer when everybody has just gone to bed at 1/4 to 1 lol
You have wetted my appetite..again.
I have just found Anna's birth you gave me and so now I have just found her parent's marriage so I am not going to bed till I've found everything you wrote down, in fact might not go to bed at all!! I am finding theBelgian research fascinating, albeit with a lot of help. I looked at Lillo today and read up about the German occupation so I can fill our history out a bit as didn't know anything at all.
Thank you for all your hard work it is very much appreciated, without it I would still be stuck with Nelly!
Kind Regards & Goodnight
Gaynor
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Hello Leen
Found the marriage of Anna's parents and then went to bed lol as couldn't keep eyes focused. This morning I looked in the marriage supplements like you said and found the documents. It turns out the parents were from Brussels yippee it's in French!! Just going to translate now or should I say try to remember that schoolgirl French!
Kind Regads
Gaynor
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Hi
I have found Carolus Ludovictus Danckaert's baptism and it gives his parents names but no marriage date for parents I also found his brothers and sister too same thing. He was born in Lillo. My question is is there an easier way to look for the marriage without going through all the marriage records backwards from birth of 1st child? If you know this secret then please share lol ;D
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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The secret : browse ;D the ten-year- index for deaths from Antwerp (Tienjarige tafels op overlijdens) find the death registration for Carolus parents. Then you can look op the death certs, their birth date and place is listed in it. They were born in different places and married in one of them.
a hint :
Tienjarige tafels op overlijdens 1891-1900 (A-V) on familysearch (Josepha Joanna Hoefmans)
and
Tienjarige tafels op overlijdens 1901-1910 on the Belgian State Archives (Petrus Jacobus Danckaert) therefor you have to register first (it’s free)
http://search.arch.be/thuispagina/faq?lang=en first read the FAQ and then click on Create an account
(you must click on the link in the received confirmation email to activate your registration)
quick explanation
http://www.arch.be/index.php?l=en
click on - Online resources
- civil status registers
- Province Antwerp
- Antwerpen
- Burgerlijke stand:overlijdensakten
- Burgerlijke stand: overlijdensakten: tienjarige tafel
- 1901-1910 (there are 4, you need the first one)
- Gedigitaliseerde archiefdocumenten (next to the blue box Archiefbeschrijving)
- on an image
you can browse by clicking on a thumbnail or enter an image number
going back : click on - the x (top right, in a circle)
- on the link above the blue box
Leen
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Hi
Thanks for that Leen. Yesterday I was getting so frustrated as I was searching the registers but hopping from one section to another trying to find where one index started and the next began. Wish they had done them year by year instead of say 1846-1853. Mind you keeping checking my date list you sent thru so now which year is which!!
I'm surprised just how ell they have survived and the amount of nformation on them. I also found out where Nellie might have stayed in Stourbridge when she arrived from Belgium. So I know something about her.
Kind Regards
Pam
P.S. I am also going to check the police files as I believe that if they didn't come from Antwerp (Brussels) then they would have had a file? well that is my understanding but I may have read it wrong. I will double check what I read just to be sure lol
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:) :) :)
Hi Leen
Can you tell I am happy! Thanks to your help I have managed to find Josepha's death and the index at the Belgian State Archives for Petrus' death.Just wanted to ask will his death certificate be in the same book or do I have to go back to Antwerpen books.
Just another thing, you'll never believe what a small world it is. Just been to the chemist to get an eye wash for my husband as has got something in his eye from gardening. Talking to an old friend Sheena and she said I looked Stressed ::) What do I look that bad lol Told her I am researching in Belgium as she knows I am doing my family history and that was struggling with the Dutch language and she then said that her assistant's husband was Dutch!!!!! Well I never right on my doorstep lol!!
Kind Regards
Pam
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??? Hi Leen I don't know what I am doing wrong!! I am on the Belgian State archves and found the reference no for Petrus (It's on Page 32 No 4128) I went onto Page 39 (Last page showing) and pressed Volgende (Next?) to get the next set of pages etc so I can jump thru to No 4128 but it won't let me go any further than this??? yet it says there are 777 scans. Mmmm what do you suggest I do I'm sure I am doing the right thing but nothing happens when I press Volgende.
Kid Regards
Pam
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:) Aw Leen Just had a thought. You said I needed No 1 of the 1901-1910 Tienjarige tafel so I presume this is the index A-D that would make sense as it stops at No 39 with D.
If that is the case he I presume I now need to go to the actual book the record is in? Will this be in the State Archives or shall I go back to Antwerpen Civil Records?
Sorry to be a nuisance but it is like relearning family history all over again for me!
Pam x
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:) :) :)
Hi Leen
Can you tell I am happy! Thanks to your help I have managed to find Josepha's death and the index at the Belgian State Archives for Petrus' death.Just wanted to ask will his death certificate be in the same book or do I have to go back to Antwerpen books.
Just another thing, you'll never believe what a small world it is. Just been to the chemist to get an eye wash for my husband as has got something in his eye from gardening. Talking to an old friend Sheena and she said I looked Stressed ::) What do I look that bad lol Told her I am researching in Belgium as she knows I am doing my family history and that was struggling with the Dutch language and she then said that her assistant's husband was Dutch!!!!! Well I never right on my doorstep lol!!
Kind Regards
Pam
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Hi Leen
I went back & looked at the Family Search Deaths Antwerpen for 1902 but only found the index. Again Petrus was there ...but so was his daughter in law Ann (nee Gallemaert)! so two deaths same year how lucky was that. So still not sure how to look at the actual death certificates ???
Pam x
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Well done Pam :D
you were on the page ‘Gedigitaliseerde archiefdocumenten’, the page with the thumbnail images, that says 39 pages with a total of 777 scans.
39 is the last page here. These pages give an overview of the scans in the register. verry handy e.g. when you are looking for a yearly index in a birth register that’s spans several years.
When you click on a thumbmail image you get the actual register (fullscreen). The pink thumbnail is where the register starts. Peter is listed on image 625 of the index, the reference year 1902 cert n° 4128 as you said.
You are right, it’s the A-D index (Aan de Kerk- up to - Deguine), you can see this on the page Archiefbeschrijving (the blue box).
Altough the civil births and marriages registers of the city Antwerp are on the Belgian State Archives, the civil death registers are not, so you must look on familysearch.
You should search for the entry number (Akte n°) which is listed in the margin of the certs
death Gallemaert Anna
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-21075-28690-64?cc=2138481&wc=321Y-82Q:1007785401,1008011501
death Danckaert Petrus
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-21075-28236-74?cc=2138481&wc=321Y-82Q:1007785401,1008011501
Carolus Ludovicus Danckaert married a second time, see Antwerpen Burgerlijke stand huwelijksakten : tienjarige tafel on the Belgian State Archives
groetjes
Leen
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Hi Leen
Thanks for the info. I realise now that Belgian State is an A-Z Index but very handy hint :) will use that again.
Found Petrus death and have both Parents and witness (?) his brother Constanius. His Birth I tink is Coxy in the province of West Flanders. Gone to births in West Flanders but no Coxy!!! I googled Coxy and it came up as a place in West Flanders so my question is where all places indexed, hoe so otherwise I am stuck....once again.
Gaynor x
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Leen
Sorry I have signed off with my username pam hope I haven't confused you lol it's been a long day ;D
Gaynor x
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PS And ignore the heading Madeline etc etc don't know who that is and why it is in my titles!!!!
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On Familysearch https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&countryId=1927071
Petrus Danckaert his birth : 17/07/1817 Koksijde - page 9v / (in French Coxyde), West-Vlaanderen / West Flanders (image 125)
Joanna Josepha Hoefmans birth : 12/08/1828 - n° 39 Doel, Oost-Vlaanderen / East Flanders (image 189)
marriage : 13/06/1855 Doel - n° 5 (image 55) marriage supplements 1855 Doel - n° 5 ( image 82 up and including image 85 (left page of image 85))
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Oh Leen I split it into two words So I had Coxy de Province whch I thought meant Coxy of Province Makes sense when you say it !!. I definitely need language lessons.
Just looked at Antwerp this afternoon and cannot believe we have never visited the city How beautiful it is. I am putting it on my to visit list. It isn't too far to come.
Pam x
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Sorry Leen I've entered my username again. I am so used to using this on my other English sites such as Pam pam56 etc but I registered in my name of Gaynor on here for some reason, not meaning to be disrespectful to you.
Gaynor x
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Yes Gaynor-Pam-Gaynor I’m confused ;D not about the name or title (which is from Wave Watcher), but about Joannes Baptiste Gallemaert and Clara Van Vaeter.
I did check the Antwerp Police Immigration Index too (also on the name DE GRAEF, see below), as you said there should be a ‘file’ for them, unless they lived in Antwerp before 1840 (filles start from 1840).
Even more confusing : they have 3 childeren born before the marriage and recognized and legitimated by marriage :
- Josephus DE GRAEF born 08/08/1855 Brussels (birth cert n° 3187 - image 390)
- Antonius GALLEMAERT 30/07/1857 Antwerp
- Catharina DE GRAEF 03/05/1860 Antwerp
on Josephus De Graef his birthcert is his mother Clara Van Vaeter listed as Clara DE GRAEF (didn’t check the others yet).
Clara was born 05/11/1828 Ukkel (n° 158 - image 225) as Clara Van Vaeter, mother Joanna Maria Van Vaeter. ???
Ukkel / Uccle, Brussels Hoofdstedelijk Gewest / Région de Bruxelles-Capitale / Brussels Capital Region - films Ukkel on familysearch see Belgium, Brabant
groetjes
Leen
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Hi Leen
Please don't tell me you're confused :'( that means there is no hope for me!!
Am I confused yes definitely I was trying to transcribe the marriage supplements and was confused over Petrus birth as one said Doel & the other (Coxye?) Also who is Isabella Rosalia Ghyselen?? she pops up twice. Totally confused. I will get back to you tomorrow as I have been out all day trying to help find some accommodation for my granddaughter who is off to uni in 2 weeks. She is going to study Geo Physics & Russian (hmm maybe I could persuade her to learn Dutch/Flemish instead lol!)
I am totally shattered and need my shower, hot chocolate & bed in that order!
Goodnight and I will speak to you tomorrow and explain a bit better.
Pam x
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marriage supplements P.J Danckaert and J.J Hoefmans
image 82
Before Mr. Petrus Josephus FLOOR, Notary Public, residing in the city Veurne, principal place of the arrondissement, province of West Flanders, and the witnesses named hereafter; Has appeared Isabelle GHYSELEN, living in the municipality of Koksijde, widow of Mr Franciscus DANCKAERT, whose first names were listed on his death entry as Franciscus Augustinus. Who declared hereby to consent in to the marriage planned by her son Mr Petrus Jacobus DANCKAERT, born at Koksijde on the 17th June 1817, custom officer, stationed at Doel; with Josephine Jeannette HOEFMANS, living at Doel, daughter of Petrus Franciscus and of Joanne Marie MOREL, or with any other he prefers. Willing that, both in her absence or presence, the marriage before the civil registrar should take place as if she would give here consent on the day itself. Whereof this original deed has been issued. Drawn up and executed at the office in Veurne on the 2nd May 1855, in the presence of Mr Franciscus GOOS, shoemaker and Franciscus D’HONDT, locksmith, both living in the city Veurne, requested witnesses.This deed has been read aloud, the appearer has declared not being able to write or to sign and the witnesses have signed with the Notary.
marriage supplement image 83
In the year 1817, the 18th of the month July at 9 o’clock in the morning, before us Charles CORNILLE, Mayor, officer of the civil registration of the municipality Koksijde, canton and arrondissement of Veurne, province of West Flanders, has appeared : Franciscus DANCKAERT, gardener, 44 years old, born at Veurne and living in this parish of Koksijde, who has shown us a child of the male gender, born yesterday the 27th of this month July at 8 o’clock in the evening, from him the declarant and from Isabella GHIJSELEN, his wife, 34 years old, born at Wulpen, and to which he has declared he want to give the first names of Petrus Jacobus, the aforesaid declaration and presentation done in the presence of Augustinus MOREL, innkeeper, 45 years old, living in Veurne and of Peter MAES, policeman, living in Koksijde, 32 years old. The father and the two witnesses have signed this act after it was read out to them /: signed / Francis Danckaert, A:Morel, Pieter Maes and C.L Cornille
certified true copy, issued at Koksijde, the 7th June 1850, the Mayor, F.Declercq
marriage supplement image 84
In the year 1846, the 3d November at 3 o’clock in the afternoon, before us Franciscus DECLERCQ, Mayor, officer of the civil registration of the municipality Koksijde, arrondissement Veurne, province West Flanders, have appeared : Benignus LEPEIRE, town clerck, 32 years old, living in Veurne and Aloysius KESTEMAN, sacristan, 24 years old, living in Koksijde, acquaintances of the deceased, which comparants have decleared that Franciscus Augustinus DANCKAERT, farmer, ca 73 years old, born at Veurne and living in Koksijde, son of the late Pieter and the late Marie RONSE, lawful (or is it legal) husband of Isabella Rosalia GHIJSELEN, farmer, born at Wulpen, living in Koksijde; has died yesterday at 1 o’clock in the afternoon in the house at Koksijde. The appearers have signed this act with us after it was read out. /: signed/ B.Lepeire, A.Kesteman and F.Declercq
certified true copy, issued at Koksijde, the 24th April 1855, the Mayor, officer of the civil registration, F.Declercq
(hmm maybe I could persuade her to learn Dutch/Flemish instead lol!)
I wouldn’t do that Gaynor, ‘thanks’ to your husband’s eye you know where to go for a dutch source when needed, a russian one can be useful too and less painful ;D
Leen
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Hi Leen
I bet you thought I had collapsed under the strain of it all lol ;D Well had stress trying to sort granddaughter's lodgings for university. Nowhere to rent so husband suggested going all the way to Surrey to look around. Finally found 4 other girls with no lodgings so put a deposit on a 4 bed house to rent paid deposit etc then landlord tells us it is already rented!!!! Got deposits back and trudged back home only to find an email from uni to say they now had a room for her what!!!! three days & money wasted. What made it worst is she has gone to Greece for a week and so also rushing around to get her stuff she needs for uni. House is soooooo quiet & calm now and I can get back to what is important lol lol
Well all I can say say is BIG THANK YOU
You have really gone to some trouble to help me and I really really cannot thank you enough. It's people like you who restores human faith in people. Going to digest it a bit more then I will look at Parish Registers tonight to find a marriage for Pieter & Marie. (Hope they're indexed lol) Will look at State Archives like you suggested.
Think I need to go and make a coffee and have a good read of all the info you sent me & once again thank you so much. Wish you needed some England help so I could return the favour.
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Hi Leen
Spent yesterday looking for Pieter & Maria's marriage but couldn't find anything but not sure when & where they married so that could be looking for a needle in a haystack so to speak.
That was interesting about the Gallemart marriage though so I might try and follow that lead. I wonder why they didn't get married and why her surname kept changing> I wondered if she had been married before or lived with someone and that is where the DE Graff comes from. Interesting?
Slow start this morning as I have overslept, not surprising though after my hectic days! Just having my morning coffee and then I will be ready to tackle the Gallemaerts lol.
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Hi Gaynor,
It took a while but I think that the mystery about Clara Van Vaeter or Clara De Graef is solved. Clara was the illegitimate daughter of Joanna Maria Van Vaeter. After Clara’s birth, her mother Joanna Maria married twice. First with Jacques Vlaenders and the second time with Jacobus De Groef. It’s likely that Clara used her second stepfather’s name De Groef, misspelled as De Graef, which wasn’t her legal name because she was not recognized or legitimated.
Joanna Maria Van Vaeter was a foundling. I found the references to her first marriage and her baptism in ‘Zoeken naar personen / Search persons’ on the Belgian State archives. There is a other Van Vaeter baptism for a Joseph, found on the same day and same place. Since they give them the same family name, Joseph could be Joanna Maria her brother.
Search persons http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g20/
baptism on the Belgian State Archives of Joanna Maria and Joseph Van Vaeter
12 March 1790 parish church Saint-Catherine, Brussels http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g21/ (log in)
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Once again Leen many thanks, you have solved the mystery which would have probably taken me days ??? :-[
I must admit I haven't done as much as I would have liked as a friend came from Suffolk yesterday so we had lunch before she goes home on Sunday. I only see her a couple of times a year. When I got home I didn't do anything (I think the wine had made my head a bit fuzzy!!) Finished weekend cleaning house so can now get on a bit more.
Is a foundling the same in English..i.e. an abandoned baby, if so how sad is that.
Kind Regards
Pam
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Hi Leen
Found the documents :)and I managed (using Google) to tanslate them too :) :) :)
Just trying to figure it out no!
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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isn’t foundling English ? I didn’t know that, I used it because it’s sorter and easier to write then abandoned child.
Yes, it’s sad, I saw in the register that there were quite a lot in that time.
And you have found the baptism entry of Joanna Maria , good. There’s not much in I’m afraid, but there’s a bit more in the marriage suplements of her first wedding.
marriage Jacobus Vlaenders - Maria Joanna Van Vaeter 11 November 1812 Drogenbos
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g2b/
marriage suplements Vlaenders-Van Vaeter (image 166 and 167) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g2c/
image 166
Extract from the proces verbal register concerning the registration of foundlings (enfants de la patrie) at the foundling hospital at Brussels
Register 82, folio 157v year 1790
n° 261. Jeanne Marie VanVaeter, 10 months old, found the 11th March 1790 at 7:30 pm near the canal at the door of Mr Wouvermans, bearing a card as noticeable mark containing : Jeanne Marie was baptized in the parochial church Sainte-Catherine and that she was 10 months old the 11th March 1790.
Certified true copy. The Director of the institution mentioned above.
marriage De Groef - Vanvaeter 25/11/1840 Ukkel http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g2d/
Today the 25th of the month November 1840 at 10 o’clock in the morning, before us Nicolaus VAN BREETWATER, alderman, authorized officer of the civil registration of the commune Ukkel, province of Brabant, have appeared in public session in our townhall : Jacobus DE GROEF, 41 years and 10 months old, day labourer, living and born in this commune on the 28th January 1799, adult son of the late Elisabeth DE GROEF, deceased at Brussels the 8th February 1812.
The future bridegroom declares in the presence of the four witnesses named hereafter, that his mother’s name is not Elisabeth DE GRAVE as listed on her deathcert but Elisabeth DE GRAEF, and he declares on oath that the place of death or last residence of his grandfather and grandmother is unknown to him.
And Joanna Maria VANVAETER, 50 years and 8 months old, day labourer, living in Ukkel, born in Brussels 12 March 1790, widow of Jacobus VLAENDERS, deceased at Ukkel 31 December 1818, adult daughter of unknow parents.
Which comparants asked us to proceed with the celebration of the marriage planned between them and of which the announcements were done before the main entrance of our town hall ; the first on the 15th of this month and the second on the 20th of the same month, both at 10 o’clock in the morning.
No impediment has been reported to us, doing justice to their request, we have, after the reading of all the above mentioned documents and of chapter six of the Civil Code titled the Marriage, asked the future bridegroom and future bride if they want to take each other for husband and for wife, each of them in turn answered affirmatively, we declared, in the name of the law, that Jacobus DE GROEF and Joanna Maria VANVAETER are united in marriage.
Of all of this we drawn up this cert in the presence of Jacobus VERHEVEN, 44 years old, slater, Josephus JACQUEMYNS, 30 years old, slaughterer, Joannes Baptista DANNEELS, 50 years old, farmer and Guilielmus KINDERMANS, 33 years old, bricklayer, all living in this commune and no relatives of the married couple. After the reading, the bridegroom and the first three witnesses have signed with us, the bride and the fourth witness have declared being unable to sign because of illiteracy.
marriage supplements (image 310, 311 and 312) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g2e/
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for the marriage of Peter Danckaert and Marie Ronse
http://www.arch.be/index.php?l=en&m=genealogist&r=genealogy-startpage
click on church registers (in red) and then
- Province West-Flanders (district Bruges, Ypres, Veurne)
- Veurne, parochie Sint-Denijs / Sint-Niklaas / Sint-Walburga (the three parishes of Veurne are listed in one index)
- Parochieregisters, Index
- Parochieregister. Alfabetische index van huwelijken
- 1593 - 03/11/1795
- Gedigitaliseerde archiefdocumenten (263)
(which you only can see when loged in, next to the blue box with ‘Archiefbeschrijving’)
now you click on a thumbnail image and then search through the index
column 3 gives you the parish (parochie Sint-Niklaas, parochie Sint-Walburga or parochie Sint-Denijs), column 4 the date and column 5 the page number of the marriage register, which you can ignore because the given page numbers in the index of Veurne don’t correspond to the numbers in the registers.
When you have the references :
click on the x in the circle (top right corner of the image screen)
on - Inventaris van de parochieregisters. Provincie West-Vlaanderen. Arrondissementen Brugge, Ieper, Veurne / A.
Coenen.
- Veurne, parochie Sint-Niklaas
- Parochieregisters. Huwelijksakten
- Parochieregisters. Huwelijksakten
- 18/04/1752 - 20/09/1763
- Gedigitaliseerde archiefdocumenten (137)
- on a thumbnail image and then search through the register
just give a shout when you need more help
groetjes
Leen
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Hi Leen
It seems foundling is the same thing in both countries. When I translated it, it came up as "find child a Brussels". Looked up and there was a foundling hospital near the canal it also said there was a home for penitent courtesans!! lol so I wondered maybe these children were the products of these fallen ladies of the night. Although I think a courtesan was a high class lady kept as a mistress of a rich man! Hope our Joanna was one!!! rather than some poor girl who had been abandoned.
Thank you so much for all that info, I haven't done hardly any today as on a Sunday I have my mum for lunch so have to entertain her. Cannot discuss family history with her too much as she gets confused and mixes everybody up or talks about someone else so our conversation is on two wavelengths. I mean Margaret who was born in 1784 for example and she tells me that Margaret hated chicken soup. How do you now that!!!! I say, oh she used to spit it out when Granny gave it to her. She means her sister Margaret, never mind old age will come to us all sooner rather than later!!
I will have a good read of the info now she has gone home and digest it all properly
Once again Leen many thanks for all your hard work I really do appreciate it, in fact I don't know what I would have done without you. :-*
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Hi Leen
I have found the index page & have the reference as thus;
Petrus JanBupe (?) m Ronse Maria Francisca N (Sint Niklaas ?) on 19 Aug 1760 No 441
I think the N is Sint Niklaas as most are marked with a W (Sint Walburga) but I might be wrong.
Now I am suppose to click on the x in the circle (top right hand corner of the image page) but I can't seem t see it :-[ Is it on the actual register page or do I need to go baack one to where all the scans are? I will try again. Thanks
Gaynor
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Hello Leen
:-[ :-[ Found it!
I have got to the pages of the 1752 register (after a lot of head scratching) Although yr instructions were easy to follow I couldn't for the life of me see the x Eventually I saw it as you said but I thought that was to clear the page oops! Anyway I am now going thru the registers wish me luck
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Hello Leen
:) I think I have found it but I was wondering if you would mind checking it for me please.
It is on Page 1 (of 7) and it is the sixth row. It is the last sheet on row 6. Also at top it says 27 in handwritten writing. I am sure it is the correct one as it is for a Mariam (Maria?) Franciscus Ronfe (Ronse) but Peter's name is longer than what I thought it would be. It includes Baptiste (?) if I am reading it correctly. I think it may be Dutch Latin or Latin not too sure at all !!
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Hello Leen
Its me....again! Sorry tokeep pestering you .
I think on the index were I read it as Van Bupe it cld have been shortened from ? Baptiste.
Also I noticed that you said the three children of Gallemaert & Van Vaeter were legitimised after the marriage. I could not find the marriage indexes for the period after Clara's birth in 1860. It appears the index was missing so I was wondering if you had an approx. date or did you check the indexes on Family Search rather then Belgian State Archives?
Kind Regards
Gaynor x
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Yep, you have the right page (thumbnail image ?) and it is Petrus Joannes Baptista, shortened in the index as Petrus Jan Bapt and Maria Francisca, just as you thought. The given names ar written in the latin form, the 'm' has something to do with the grammatical sense,accusative or something like that, as far I understand, I only know some genealogy Latin.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g2i/ (log in)
Anno Domini 1760 die 19e augusti R.D. V.Van der Haeghe vicar noster de expressa mea licentia uno præmisso banno cum
dispansatione super duobis aliis matrimonio junxit per verba de præsenti Petrum Joannem Baptistam Danckaert vidium, natum
in hac Bewesterpoort et Mariam Franciscam Ronse, natam in hac inter urbis limites coram testibus Petro Jacobo De Viez, conjugato
S.Walburgis et Mathaeo De Saever. F:A: De Cuijpere, pastor.
(Bewesterpoort was a hamlet /rural arrea at Veurne)
The three first childeren of Gallemaert-Van Vaeter were legitimised on the marriage of their parents, it is stated in the marriage cert en in the margin of the childerens birth cert . I didn’t check the index for that marriage, I found the reference in the margin of their daughter Anna Gallemaert her birth cert (margin : Huwelijks-Akte der Ouders Jaer 1860 n° 728).
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g2j/
For the missing 10 years index (Antwerp marriages 1851-1860), see familysearch Antwerpen film Tienjarige tafels 1843-1860.
Leen
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Hi Leen
Thank you for looking at that, I'm getting quite good looking things up but terrible at trying to translate them When it is in English then you can try to fill in the gaps with supposed words if the writing is unclear but when you don't speak the language it is hard to fill in the gaps.
I thought it might be Latin. Google does Latin translations so will put that in.
Missed that marriage for Anna's parents that will be my task for today!
Just looked for Nelly's brother. He was called Karl when he lived in England but I think it might be Carolus.Accoding to Nelly he worked at a quarry where the marble was sent to USA for statue of Liberty. I checked the births from 1902 backwards to when Nelly was born in 1896 but nothing similar. In fact just three males but I am now going to look at their baptisms just in case he decided to call himself Karl when in fact his real name is nothing like Karl. Also he may be the product of Carolus 2nd marriage so will search from 1904 forward. (Don't mind searching now as I seem to be getting the hang of it in the registers etc) In the parish registers I look at the first page of each row to give me an idea whether it is in this row seems to cut a lot of the time down.
Well here I go again, hope my husband is not expecting his dinner early!!!
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Oh no, I forgot ‘Database Akten West-Vlaanderen’ again, sorry. The indexing of the Belgian registers is still ongoing
but the biggest part that already have been done are those of West Flanders. So, when you are searching for someone in West Flanders, always check ‘Search persons’ on the State Archives or ‘Database Akten West-Vlaanderen’ first. ::)
The data from Akten West-Vlaanderen is also on the State Archives (on the state Archives you can search on variants). Some of the search results on ‘Database Akten West-Vlaanderen’ gives direct access to the actual register (not all yet).
Search Persons Belgian State Archives http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g2p/
Database Akten West-Vlaanderen http://www.vrijwilligersrab.be/en/node/207
Antwerp Births Ten year index 1891-1900 (A-L) (on familysearch) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g2o/
groetjes
Leen
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Good Morning Leen,
Well thank you for that and your other sound advice. Using what you taught me :) I managed to find Joanne Baptiste's marriage certificate and then I found his birth certificate in Brussels 1831 Image 134)
His parents were Joseph & Levine Dessree (or similar!) so I decided to go back from his birth to see if I could find their marriage in the Indexes. I thought I had found it shortened to Jos but after much trawling through it turned out to be a Jacobus, so wasted a lot of time!!.
So I started again and the first page I looked at was for him and his wife. They married 26 April 1820 in Brussels (Image No 345)
Joseph's parents were Simon Joseph and his wife was Theresa Van Rinsfeld )
Her parents were Jean Desssree and Anne Ettebod, (There is another word Saveure ,but I am not too sure whether this is her surname and Ettebod is a middle name) It doesn't seem to translate in Google!
Also I think it says that Levine lived in Republic of France for either last 5 years or just five years. My schoolgirl French is atrocious, teacher was right when he said I should pay more attention in class!
Even though I couldn't translate them properly I felt pretty pleased with myself :)
The intrepid travellers arrived home last night and my hallway is a mass of emptied suitcases and dirty laundry. I have left the wash powder & conditioner on top of the washer. I hope they don't think I will be washing clothes today....I am far to busy with more important things!
Kind Regards
Gaynor x
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Leen I have just found it ;D can't quite believe it!!! It is on 4/21? February 1796 in the Tien Tainijanges Yipeee!
That will now give me the scope to look for Joseph's baptism i.e. between 1796 -1800?
Just going to check out the actual marriage register to see the actual document.
Hope it will be as easy as this all days.
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Hi Leen
I shouldn't have been so confident :-[
I am looking at the marriage register (in French) trying to pick out the name of Gallemaert. I know it is in the front bit as it is Feb 1796 & registers are 1796-1797!!!!! but there is no number given in the indexes aaggggh!
Kind Regards
Gaynor.
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Hi Leen
Would you mind looking at one of the marriages in the 1796-1797 Brussels Registers. I cannot find out where the month is shown although it seems to be a pretty standard format. This way I thought I could skip January (Janvier) & at least get to February (Fevrier) 1796. I just cannot for the life of me see where they have put the month in it. I would have thought it was at the beginning of the certificate but seems not.
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Leen Just had a thought. Can I skip the full transcription and just look for a signature. Does the bridegroom sign at the bottom or is that just the witnesses. The signatures are very clear so might save me a bit of time.
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Gosh, you're going fast Gaynor,
I had a quick look and it seems that or the date in the index is wrong, or the date in ‘zoeken naar personen’ where it is listed as 02/02/1795 cert / entry n° 77 in the parish of La Chapelle at Brussels, which is Onze-Lieve-Vrouw-ter-Kapelle / Notre Dame de la Chapelle (parish register not civil registration, the civil registration in Belgium starts around June 1796, in some towns a little earlier or later, republican calender)
the spouses and the witnesses do sign depending whether they can write or not
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g3c/
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Hi Leen
I am on page 66 lol and still no sign of them. On the index register it just says their names, Simon Joseph & Theresa Van ___ and then it looks like 21 and then altered to a 4 (?) Above it says 1796 that is why I presumed it wld be at beginning of the register. So am I looking in the wrong place, yes..oh dear no wonder I cannot see them. I couldn't see that info you have i.e. cert No 77 etc maybe there is another index I haven't seen.
Will start again.
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Blimey!!!
I didn't realise you can put person's name in and then see results, wow that is a quick shortcut,thank you so much for that. Can I do that for everybody lol, gueSs not I am not that lucky lol
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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No you can't do that for everybody (yet), that would be too easy
you surely did a good job Gaynor, you found a lot. You probably had the same teacher as me ;D, it's not the French : saveure is sa veuve (his widow), Dessree is Dewree, you see it's the handwriting.
marriage Gallemaert - Dewrée Brussels
The 26th day of the month April year 1820 at 10:45 in the morning.
Marriage certificate of Joseph Gallemaert born in this city in the year 1796 the 7th April, labourer, living at Terre Neuve n° 172 with his parents, minor son of Simon Joseph Gallemaert and of Therese Rinsfeld, spouses, labourers, one party and of Livine De Wrée, born in this city the 1st thermidor year 5 of the French Republic, lacemaker, living at rue de la Coupe n° 1253 section 5 with her mother. Adult daughter of Jean Dewree and of Anne Ettebod, his widow, labourer, the other party.The preliminary documents are : his milicien certificate; the marriage publication, done in this city by me officer of the civil registry at the 16th and 23rd last and posted according the law, no opposition being reported, after reading chapter VI of the law of the 11th March 1803, the birth certificates of the couple and the other documents, all properly done. The said spouses declared to take in marriage the one Livine Dewree and the other Joseph Gallemaert, in the presence of the father and mother of the future spouses, of Leonard Ettebod, 43 years old, labourer, living at rue de Schaerbeke, of Louis Van Rinsfeld, 52 years old, labourer, Terre Neuve, uncles and of André Duchant, 50 years old, shoemaker, rue de la Coupe. After which, I, Baron Louis Devos, Chevalier de l’Ordre Royal du Lion Belgique, alderman, officer of the civil registration, the undersigned, pronounced in the name of the law, that the said spouses are united in marriage, and I have signed after the reading of this certificate.
Which spouses have declared that they (recognize /acknowledge ) Simon De Wree as their legitimate child, born of them the 1th June 1817 in this city, registered under n° 1525, and have declared not being able to write as well as the witnesses and the mother.
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:-[ Leen I am terrible with handwriting especially if it isn't English. How I regret not doing languages at school. My granddaughter is very good picking up languages but she is off to uni on Sunday so wont bmuch help lol and my friends son-in-law is a teacher and away traing days so cannot help me if need be till weekend. Thanks for that translation it will really help.
I am on the following page etc but still can't see the name of Gallamaert (maybe I need some new specs)
Belgium, Brabant, Civil Registration, 1582-1914
Brussel
Huwelijken 1797 1 aug-1800
Image of 421
Kind Regards Gaynor x
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:-[ :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
Ha Leen sorry no wonder I am on civil marriages not parish registers...hi ho it's off we go again!!!!
Kind Regards Gaynor x
I must repeat 100 times "I will find Simon Joseph Gallamaert before I go to bed!!
Gaynor x
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Hi Leen
Well I am going to admit defeat :'(
I looked on the civil marriages site and he's not there and then I tried Belgium marriages 1500 etc but can only search with a surname and nothing is coming up for a Simon Joseph Gallamaert (unless surname is spelt wrong). D I need to go back onto the civil marriage site?
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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the date in the index is the right one 02/02/1796, no cert number
you got the date, so now you must search for the cert on the State Archives.
go to the parish registers of Brussels and then
- Brussel / Bruxelles, Onze-Lieve-Vrouw-ter-Kapelle / Notre Dame de la Chapelle
- Parochieregisters. Huwelijksakten / Registres Paroissiaux. Actes de mariages
- Parochieregisters. Huwelijksakten en huwelijksbeloften / Registres Paroissiaux. Actes de mariages et promesses
- 00/01/1794 - 07/09/1796
(because you need your sleep to be fit for the laundry tomorrow ;D the entry is on image 48)
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Thanks Leen I was tearing my hair out looking or this. I never thought to go to state archives I was still looking on Family Search what a dopey person I am :-[
I must admit my eyes (and brain) are getting very sleepy. I have been looking on & off all day. I will look at that then I think I will have an early night as it is now 1/2 10 and husband has gone to London for the night.
As for laundry - no chance!!! I will do mine at the weekend but granddaughter has to do hers as she needs it for Saturday. I have done my bit because I bought some fabric conditioner for the washer today at shops so they have no excuse. Mind you it is that cold I doubt it will dry outside. Feels like winter is here already not Autumn. The only bit I like about autumn/winter is the food...stews, chunky soups, casseroles, sponge puddings mmm the list goes on & on and so do the lbs!!!!!
Goodnight, god bless, talk in the morning.
Gaynor x
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Leen Just thought I'd let you now I (should I say we) have found it.....at last (with a lot of help from you). Thought I was going nutty
Now I can go to bed and instead of dreaming about sugar plum fairies I'll be dreaming of baptisms,marriages & parish registers lol lol
Goodnight
Gaynor x
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Good Afternoon Leen
Had a good night's sleep so refreshed for my searching!
When I got up I looked at the Belgian State Archive List as last night I had a thought after I had gotton into bed. I remember noticing that just above the list from Simon's Marriage (Search Personnel) there was a baptism for a Simon J hmmm So I have looked it up and it is for a Simon Joseph. This looks like Simon's Baptism!
It says 4/3/1768 Sint Gregorious Simon Josephus Filus (Son) Legitima (Legitimate)
Joannis Gallemaert et (and) Joanna Maria de Bon (?)
It then has 2 lines I can't make out but 2 more names Josrphus Manchox et Martia De Mey (witnesses or godparents)
So now I have two more names Joannis & Joanna Maria Gallemaert. I am going to look up their marriage if I can.
This is so much fun
Kind Regards
Gaynor
PS Guess who ended up doing the laundry this morning - moi!
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Hi Leen
Have just checked the marriages from 07/01/1764 - 23/11/1772 for St Gere not 2 bad as only 3 Pages & 59 images lol. The writing was very clear so that helped a lot. A couple of Gallamaerts, Guilielmus, Judocuis, Jasper but no Joannis. I am now going to check the earlier register as if they had a few children may have married a lot earlier.
I tried to put in the name under Personne but it just said free search. Still not too sure how that works.
Kind Regards
Gaynor x
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Hi Leen
Not having uch luck, it looks like they didn't marry in same church as Simon baptised in. Have just gone thru registers 1756-1763 nothing so might wait until yo tell me how to search by person as they cld have been married anywhere lol
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Hi Leen
I have managed to translate &put in some info but it keeps coming back as
"U heeft waarschijnlijk een ongeldige zoekopdracht opgegeven. Pas uw zoekopdracht aan en probeer opnieuw. Dit kan komen doordat een zoekterm begint met * of ?"
so I am def doing something really wrong :-[
Gaynor x
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Goedemiddag Leen ;D
Well I gave up on parent's of Simon's marriage lol
So after lunch I decided to have a look at Isabella Rosalia Ghijselen to see if there is any interesting things in her background...hope so!
According to the marriage of son she was born in 1783 but I have checked the baptisms in Wulpen & Koksijde but nothing for her so I might widen my search around that area. I suppose that just because she was born in Wulpen doesn't mean to say she was baptised there. I am not to sure of any Belgian customs but in England you can be baptise at the church were you live or born, at your mother's church/birthplace or not been baptised at all!
Will let you know how I get on.
doei voor nu
Gaynor
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Goeienavond Gaynor :D
there's not much more in the baptism entry from Simon then you already said
page 92v - image 93 Brussel/Bruxelles parish Sint-Gaugericus / Saint Gaugericus (or St Gery), 4th March 1768
Simon Josephus filius legitimus
Joannis Gallemaert et Joanna Mariae De Rom
conj[ugum] natus hac nocte circa 12 suscep[tores] Simon Josephus
Marichox et Martina De Meij.
Simon Josephus ligitimate son of Joannes Gallemaert and Joanna Maria De Rom, spouses, born this night at circa 12 o'clock. The godparents were Simon Josephus Marichox and Martina De Meij.
some Latin https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Latin_Genealogical_Word_List
I guess that your search was too complex, using less search criteria will give you better results.
e.g : Plaats or Lieu : Brussel/Bruxelles (you can select a place by clicking on the grid next to Plaats or Lieu)
then (search criteria Eerste persoon or Première personne) :
- Naam (or Nom) : Gallemaert this gives 236 results, you can narrow it down by clicking on
- alle rollen (or tous les rôles) and then on : Bruidegom (or Epoux) this gives 18 results (including the one you need)
arrange the search results e.g : click above the search results on Datum (or Date) for descending or ascending order, …
if you prefer the french version :
http://www.arch.be/index.php?l=en&m=online-resources&r=search-engines&sr=search-persons click on Search persons
groetjes en tot later
Leen
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Hi Leen
You make everything look so much easier, you won't believe how long I have been trying to get on the person search about three hours lol and that was after I had translated some of the words. I tried to put as much info in as I could but as you pointed out sometimes less is more!
Well followed yr instructions and hey presto on the Gallemaert list now. Will use this info for future searches. I always copy & paste yr instructions for future reference and have referred back to them....time and time again! I am going to put a frontispiece on entitled "How To Trace Your Belgian Family" by Leen (she who knows everything and more!!)
T
Thank you for that info although thank you does not seem adequate considering how much help you have been to me
Kind Regards
Gaynor x
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Hi Leen
Thanks I found weddings for Simon and then his parent's Joannes Baptista & Maria Joanne De Rom. Noticed a baptism for a Jean Baptista so checked that out too. His parents were Martin Gallemaert & Elizabeth Jacobs. He was bapt 27th November 1732 Sint Gorkskert St Gery. I was going to search for this marriage but for the life of me I cannot get back onto the person search. I have clicked Gallemaert & also Brussels but it is only giving me 19 results and all in the 1800's although I have not specified a period. I did it first time around and got loads of names, have you any idea what I am doing wrong. Wish you was sitting here next to me lol
Gaynor x
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Hi Leen
Sorted!! Just left off plaats and lots have come up. Off I go again now searching for Martin's marriage!
Gaynor x
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:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) Yipeee Found it!
Parochieregister / Huwelijksakte
Notre Dame Brussels
Brussel
Aktedatum 08-04-1731
Naam Elisabeth Jacobs
Bruidegom Martin Galmaert ;D
Gaynor x
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:) Goedemorgen Leen
What a miserable day, raining and cloudy. Hmm doesn't look like I will get much housework done, never mind I suppose I will have to do family history!!
Couldn't find anything more on the Gallemaert family so have skipped back to the Danckaerts, now I know the technique for searching Personne. I found Petrus Joannes Baptista in the index but when I come to look at the parish registers they are missing, that's strange as if they are missing how come it is showing in the indexes ???
The registers jump from 1691 to 1752 so years 1692-1751 are missing and guess what I want Veurne St Nicholas 1725 Typical!! I thought I was on a roll there. Any suggestions greatly appreciated. I was thining of looing for a marriage in that period but that is just guessing and Danckaert seems to be a popular name in Veurne.
Kind Regards
Gaynor x
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Sorry Leen
Totally confused that info above was referring to the marriages not births! Births are missing from
from
26/03/1695 - 26/12/1712 then jumps to 08/04/1752 - 20/12/1753
Just had a thought, again if they indexed they cannot be missing. I wonder if it shld read 26/12/1752! Will be back in a minute!
Gaynor x
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Hi Leen
Just looked at the last image (Page 17) on the 1712 registers and it is signed by the pastor in 1729. Hmm does that mean the register goes up to 1729? Would you mind looking at the image before the last image to see if I am right. I can then go through and try to pick out Petrus's name.
Also on the indexes it says Comments: BLZ 659 but I have no idea what this refers to do you think it could be a page no?
Kind Regards
Gaynor x
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Gosh you were busy Gaynor, yet another two generations. I had to search who was who ;D
I’m afraid that they are not online, familysearch did microfilmed them
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/295926?availability=Family%20History%20Library
the ‘missing years’ are available on microfilm in the State Archives at Kortrijk and Bruges and in the city archives of Veurne. The State Archives are digitising the parish records from the original registers, which are the parish cert images on the State Archives, unlike the civil records which are digitized microfilms, the same as on familysearch (or something like that). The only reasons I could think of is that they are not digitized yet or the original parish books are not available anymore or in too poor condition.
BLZ = bladzijde = page, page number 659 of the register (which is not online)
will see what I can find in the afternoon, in the meantime : links to various parish index transcriptions for Brussels
on the portal site http://www.geneaknowhow.net/index.html
click on ‘digital resources Netherlands and Belgium’
click under Brussel-Bruxelles on ‘internet’ (left hand column)
link (one of) on the website of the city Brussels index baptism 1752-1792 (for all parishes of Brussels)
http://www.brussel.be/artdet.cfm/7654/Collectie-parochieregisters click on the link ‘Entraide généalogique’
transcription of the census Brussels 1812 http://bruxelles1812.org/ (searchable name indexed pdf)
original census Brussels 1795 and 1799
http://www.pallas.be/pls/opac/plsp.getplsdoc?lan=N&htdoc=general/opac_avb.htm
or french version http://www.pallas.be/pls/opac/plsp.getplsdoc?lan=F&htdoc=general/opac_avb.htm
type in the search box : volkstelling and click on zoeken or rechercher and click on the 1795 or 1799 link
The census is divided in 8 sections . Section 1 and section 5 of the 1795 census is not available. The links which giving access to the online census are those with ‘Raadpleegbaar op Internet’ or ‘Consultable sur Internet’. (Simon Gallemaert lived in rue Terre-Neuve, section 2 in 1799)
groetjes
Leen
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Goedemorgen Leen,
Bedankt for all that information.
Didn't get to much done yesterday, mum for lunch! but in the evening I was, as we say in England, "running around like a headless chicken. Jumping from one thing to another. I was so frustrated at not being able to find the registers.
I also looked for another but whe I came to the start it said 1825-1832 illegible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So I gave up >:( and instead looked for Carolus Danckaert's 2nd marriage which I have found and just got the supplements.
I thought I had read somewhere about census returns but as I couldn't see anything thought I was wrong. That is good news and can't wait to look it up.
Gaynor x
PS It's raining again...no housework for me then ;D
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Hi Leen
I have just seen Simon's census entry!!! My computer had a major meltdown and couldn't acess the internet. My husband has just got home from London and he has "cleaned it up" as said I may have unwittingly downloaded a virus. He said I keep far too much on so is going to take some of my files, old programmes etc off tomorrow!!
It says Simon was a journalier which translated as day, variations were day labourer or journeyman. Because of the glitch I am going to have a go at translating the supplements when my dinner has settled, just made a balti and now full to the brim!! My other passion in life apart from family history is cooking & baking.
Kind Regards
Gaynor x
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Goedemorgen Leen
Good news, it is not my computer, my next door neighbour has just told me that their internet was down yesterday too, so I haven't got a bug in mine, so my husband can keep his hands off my files ;D Apparently they are digging up for new gas pipes and looks like it is effecting the phone lines, typical! Hope I manage to stay online today as so much to do.
Kind Regards
Gaynor x
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Well, I hope that your internet will work properly soon but it is good news isn’t it, now you can be sure that every file, folder, button or program stays where you want it ;)
a journalier / dagloner normally is a day labourer, a daily hired and paid unskilled worker, just as well it could be a journeyman. On the 1812 census he was a gold beater, his sons were ouvriers ébéniste, literally worker cabinet makers, they could be apprentice cabinet makers, or not ? It was a family of craftsman I would think, Simon’s great grandsons in Antwerp were cabinet makers too.
In the 1812 census http://bruxelles1812.org/
(children under the age of 10 only listed by number and gender with head of the household)
click on the ‘G’
Galmaert Simon, 42 years old, born at Brussels, husband of Rinsveld Thérèse, gold beater, Rue Terre-Neuve n° 168, section 2
Galmaert Joseph, 16 years old, born at Brussels, (workman-cabinet maker/ebonist ?)
Galmaert Charles, 13 years old, born at Brussels, (workman-cabinet maker/ebonist ?)
Galmaert Marie, 10 years old, born at Brussels, lacemaker
click on the ‘R’
Rinsveld Thérèse, 48 years old, born at Brussels, wife of Galmaert Simon
Rinsveld Joseph, 70 years old, born at Brussels, widow, (workman/labourer ?) could be the father of Therese
Leen
We do say the same ‘rondlopen als een kip zonder kop’ , we also say kieke(n) instead of kip, but kieken isn’t Standard Dutch, so common speaking it is kip :)
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Hi Leen
Thanks for that info. I wonder what a gold beater did. Obviously something to do with gold but would it maybe have been for larger pieces rather than jewellery mmm might try and find that out.
Internet still not quite right. Taking absolutely ages to load :'( and was off for most of this morning. Had to go out at lunchtime but am back online now, for how long who knows, be glad when gas men are all finished.
When I looked on the 1799 census (enlarged) couldn't find the name so went through it all twice..still no name. Ha then I realised that by enlarging it I was only seeing one side and that there was a second page!!! Finally found it.
At the moment I am trying to get all my notes in some semblance of date order as I tend to scribble notes on the nearest piece of paper I can find oops. I have made a list of everybody and just checking to see I have all the birthdates/marr/deaths etc.
Kind Regards Gaynor
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PS Leen
It seems that the sons might have worked with ebony wood (ebonists?) from Africa. It's a very dark blackish wood and very hard. I know because I was a secretary at a wood company which made doors!
Kind Regards
Gaynor x
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:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Hello Leen
Yipee I am back online. It wasn't the pipes outside (sorry workmen) it was the router (?) Apparently we have wireless connection so we don't plug in and our router was not sending signal to my laptop!! Anyway got a booster from PC World which I plugged in and now it is running fine (touch wood). Only problem is I am now bald from pulling out my hair :'( in frustration.
Mind you it gave me time to sort out the notes so all in order (?) I hope.
Kind Regards
Vicky
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:)Hello Leen
I am back now, was you wondering where I had disappeared to. Just had a quick break in Crete and it was beautiful, warm and only rained for 2 days. Mind you on the last evening the rain brought out the mossies and that was the night I didn't put on any spray so they decided to have a feast. They chose my right leg as their main course so came home with eight! massive bites, now can't stop scratching!! I hope when I come to Belgium in May (yes husband has promised me a trip for my birthday) that you don't have the pesky blighters there, if so I will be sprayed top to toe with insect repellent whether I smell or not!
Well I managed to put some semblance of order with the notes etc and have printed out the certificates. Just going to start translating what I can of them. I noticed that if you stop midway in a sentence it gives a totally different meaning until you add the other words. I have had some funny combinations believe me!
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Good Evening Leen
I hope you have got your woolly vests and boots at the ready. Just heard on the news that it is snowing in Holland, Germany & Belgium. Seems like Winter is on it's way ::) Time to get some stew & dumps in the oven methinks!!
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Goed Morgen Leen
Hope yur snow has gone away and you are not snowed in! Well I have managed to construct a Danckaert tree and got all the notes in order! Just doing the same for the other side. Yesterday I spent a couple of hours trying to decipher Joannes Baptiste & Clara Van Vaeter's marriage certificate as it is quite faded. Then Microsoft decided to update the coputer and just closed me down evn tho' I told them to remind me in 4 hours, so my word document where I'd copied the translation just vanished :'( I swore a bit but this morning I noticed it was still on the internet site Google Translate, not that it has done me a lot of good. See my translation below, I don't know about ships in Antwerp tho' ???
said at the town house in open session immediately in double drawn by my under get eckenden ships of the city of Antwerp pretty ambtenaer delegates from the registrar after the partyeu were read by the act vereischle Instruments betre kkelijken civil registration alsmead helzsede chapter title of marriage of civil selbock and parlyeu the crue ua other verklaerd baddeu mutually fate ectgenoten aen to take and by my the uilsprack
Can I ask for your help once again please otherwise I can see this taking me at least a week :'( :'(
Kind Regards
Gaynor
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Sorry Leen I forgot to give you a reference it is Page 207 of 494 1860-61 Marriages Brussels.
Thank you Gaynor
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Leen I am still trying to translate it but this made me laugh must share it with you
....ddeu zich wederzijds lot ectgenoten aen te neme en door my de uilsprach was gedaen dat zy in den naem der wet door den echt aen elkanders zyn verbonden DE voorafgaeende
....civil selbock and parlyeu the crue ua other verklaerd baddeu mutually fate ectgenoten aen to take and by my the uilsprach was gedaen that she in the naem of the law, the real aen each other ZYN connected DE-using waste gas
lol lol lol waste gas lol lol :) :) :) :)
Gaynor x