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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: Gerry_Dalton on Tuesday 29 July 14 09:04 BST (UK)
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G'day
I am trying to find out any further info on Minnie Wilson and Mike Brown who were married at St Andrews, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada on 26 Feb 1913.
Minnie Wilson born 21 Sep 1886 in Hull, Yorkshire, England.
Mike Brown (Michael William Brown) born Kansas about 1870 ???
Marriage certificate says: Minnie Wilson age 27 born England, residence when married as Kamloops, British Columbia, parents names Charles Frost Wilson and Isabella Hutton
and
Mike Brown age 38, residence when married as Colby, Washington, USA birthplace Kansas, USA and parents Mike Brown and Lizzie Wainsborough
Family stories say Mike did not tell the truth about his age at the time he married Minnie and he was about 15 years older than Minnie hence the calculation of Mike being born some time around 1870. :o
After their marriage Mike and Minnie came to Tasmania in Australia where their first daughters was born in 1914 and then second daughter born also in Tasmania in 1916. They then went to Queensland, Australia where their 3rd daughter was born in 1924. Both Mike and Minnie died in Queensland
Minnie was born in Yorkshire, England, Her mother Isabella nee Hutton died when Minnie was about 8 years old.
In 1908 Minnie married a Karl or Frederick William Charles Weise who was said to have worked on ships. Karl seems to have vanished and family stories say he died at sea. Minnie and Karl had a daughter Annie (born Hull 1910 died Hull 1931). Family stories say Minnie gave Annie to her sister and went to Canada. It seems Minnie did not take on the Weise surname!
What I am looking for is:
1) How did Minnie Wilson (or possible Weise or Weiss) get to Canada?
2) Are there any record of Mike Brown arriving in Canada (he may have also been to the Klondike looking for Gold before he went to Colby, Washington)
3) How did Mike and Minnie get from Canada to Tasmania?
Any further info about Mike Brown would also be appreciated. Mike's earlier years are totally mysterious to our family.
Thanks in advance for any information
Cheerio
Gerri
Down Under
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They do seem rather elusive. (the names don't help of course!)
Is Mike ever listed on Australian electoral rolls? (Would suggest he'd naturalised or was originally a British subject).
From the UK, Minnie is likely to have sailed into an east coast port (Quebec, Halifax, or a US port such as NY) and taken the train across. She may have had a promise of work in the area - I think there was still a call for domestics etc. at the time. From BC, they probably sailed from Vancouver direct to Australia.
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The similarities in names of parents & possible birth age here are interesting, but am only adding to the post as a possible clue, as could be a sibling...could also just be a red herring
Patrick Brown / Birth Feb.22 1872 Glasson, W. Ire
Christening 20, Glasson, West, Ire
Michael Brown & Elizabeth Wandsborough
This Michael Brown is b. Ireland but widowed by 1900, living Kansas..w. two daughters in household...https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MMTP-ZK6
But the mother is Kate in earlier census and no son Michael.
1910 Washington census offers up no clues, there is only this Michael on the FHS search https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MGJ7-ZPK
The Hamburg passenger lists may have something to fill you in on Karl Weise...
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11630-211007-20?cc=1307718
Ralph Swanston ..one of the witnesses....was from Berwick Scotland...Father Andrew, Mother Mary Dodds / immigrated 1911/ wife Margaret Penny Borthwick in case anything sounds familiar...This is he in 1911 they transcribed his Y.O.B. incorrectly
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=64062
Note that there are some Wilson surnames just a few houses prior although it is quite a common name...but worth a look see
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Aralph~%20%2Bsurname%3Aswanston%20%2Bbirth_place%3Ascotland~
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This could possibly be Minnie arriving in Sep 1911 on the Empress of Britain (would have missed Canadian census):
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0196q/
Aged 22 (slightly younger than actual age?) headed for Vancouver as a domestic.
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Thanks everyone for you amazing input. I am doing this research for my older cousin and she is totally amazed by the information that has been located so far. My cousin is the one who has relayed to me the family stories about Mike Brown and Minnie Wilson and asked me to do this research.
The record of the arrival in Canada of Minnie Wilson in Sep 1911 seems to fit the profile well.
Family stories say that Minnie was working as a domestic at Kamloops when she married Mike Brown. Records show she was living in Kamloops.
The info on Ralph Swanston one of the witnesses to Minnie and Mikes marriage is a real bonus...one has to wonder if they were long term friends.
Glasson Westmeath Ireland is in the area where we think our Browns came from, so we have to wonder if the Brown/Wansbrough record is connected ??? Further research may reveal something else.
All suggestions are gratefully appreciated.
Cheerio for now
Gerry Down Under.
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The fellows would only have known each other a couple of years, as Ralph immigrated 1911.
I did find a Michael with an "Ellen", a Patrick and a Michael of the ages we seek... all born in Ireland but none born or living in Kansas...so I didn't post as it is so far off...but if anything points back to it we know it is there... If he fibbed about his age, he may have fibbed about more....Hard to say until dots are connected or discarded...
How long were they in Canada/N.America? ( when did they turn up in Aus.?)
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Not sure if the correct spelling of Elizabeth spouse of Michael may have been with a "W" an "H" as also found this https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F52Z-GYD
Bridget Browne b. Dec. 6 1869
Birthplace: 0015, Glasson, Westmeath, Ireland
parents Michl Browne and Elizabeth Handsboraugh
Oddly it is transcribed twice, this one says birth Coosan and uses different spellings all around, and is under another batch number... https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPS8-XVL
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It does pay to keep digging, as did find a Michael as well!!!
b. Apr. 20 1867 Glasson, West, Ire
Christening:17, GLASSON, WEST, IRE
parents: Michael Brown & Elizabeth Wandsbro
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F57W-FT5
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I should not allow you to pin your hat to this family as not all evidence exists!!!!...Most eEarlier Ireland census all destroyed, I do not spot them in that locale 1901...There is this Michael & Elizabeth, she'd have to have been a teen to be the mother of Mike....but still would need some decent shreds of proof this might be the correct family
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Athlone_Town/Scotch_Parade/1773360/ ( more older children further on makes this family unlikely)
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MORE in IRELAND in case they ever are yours to claim...
( Dry cow/Brick Island in Coorsan/Coarsan/Coosan)
Bridget Jan 24 1880 Drycow Island, Westmeath, Ireland
James Wansbors & Anne Connor
also Annie, Catherine,
Elizabeth & Mary...then Ellen Frances, James Francis, John Joseph, William & Thomas Aloysius listed below them
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3AWansboro~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Aireland~%20%2Bfather_givenname%3Ajames~%20%2Bmother_surname%3Aconnor~
In 1901 in case father, James Wansboro a rellie, ie brother of Eliza
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Athlone_East/Athlone__Rural_/1772661/ ( I see Bridget in 1911 London England)
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Tithe Applotment Books Westmeath ...Brown can also be found as Browne
Wansbro / Coorsan / St Mary's Athlone / Westmeath / 1829
Wansbro, John / Longwerth / St Mary's Athlone / Westmeath / 1829
Wansboro James / Coarsan / St Mary's Athlone / Westmeath /1829
Wansboro / Moranshill / St. Mary's Athlone / Westmeath /1829
Wansboro Jno / Coorsan / St Mary's Athlone / Westmeath /1829
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/index.jsp
Ireland / Selections of Catholic Parish Baptisms, 1742-1881 Birth, Baptism & marriages on ancestry will also help fill in some blanks although the names are in R.C. latin form
ie: Michaelem Wansboro / Gulielmi Wansboro etc.
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Speaking of which there appears to be some more...but date not available for me to view?
Mariam Browne baptism/Roscommon and Westmeath, Ireland
Michaelis Browne & Elizabetha Wansbury?
Thomam Browne birth Roscommon and Westmeath, Ireland
Michaelis Browne & Elizabethae Wansboro
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For Miriam Browne the date is 11 Sep 1863. Sponsors Michaeli Hages and Brigida Wansbury. St Mary's Athlone.
For Thomam Browne the date is 16 Aug 1858. Sponsors Joanne Wansboro and Maria Moran. St Mary's Athlone.
Found another Michael baptized St Mary's Athlone Roscommon and Westmeath 17 Apr 1867. Parents Michael Browne and Eliza Wansboro. Sponsors were James Wansboro and Catherine Curley.
There seems to be more than one couple with similar names baptizing children about the same time? Or are the 2 Michaels the same child with dates out a bit?
Pb
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It would be an odd coincidence with the small number of Wansboro, that another Eliza might have married a Michael Browne....and had a son Michael 3 days after the other had a son Michael..Having said that...Of course anything has to be considered possible until proven otherwise!!!
Perhaps Apr. 20,1867 should have been the christening date and April 17th the birth date.....I guess one needs to see the images to be sure.
If this is all the same couple, then, they are older than I'd thought, having children around 1858.
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Good evening
My older cousins are over them moon that we are getting so much help and input....and I am delighted also
We are all open to the suggestion about our 'Mike Brown' and his parents. When all we have to go on is family stories passed down through a couple of generations.
Our Browns were Roman Catholic and from Irish beginnings, that is just about definite. Mike Browns parents were initially thought to be Lizzy and William but the marriage certificate shows it to be Mike Brown and Elizabeth Wainsborough (sic). Wansboro and it's variations seems far too much of a coincidence to totally ignore.
Of course Mary and Maria are interchangeable just like Mary and Marjory!
My cousins are checking with the other living descendants of Mike and Minnie for any for any other details I may have missed.
Unfortunately letters, may photos and other family information were lost when one of the family homes of one of Mike and Minnies daughters home was flooded back in the 1940's.
I am still looking for Mike and Minnies arrival in Australia sometime between 26 Feb 1913 & 14 Feb 1914 which is when their first daughter Mary Margaret Jessie Brown was born in Queenstown, Tasmania.
None of the Australian documents I have seen have uncovered any further clues to this mystery nor have any of the family notes.
All input is gratefully appreciated and thanks ever so much. Cheerio for now Gerri Down Under
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Well, sock this info into the maybe file and perhaps one day more might be found.
Middle names being used is not uncommon... Sometimes the renaming of children as jr. gets a little confusing with fathers & sons with same name... or maybe they just liked the other name best
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Hello again.
I was wondering if you have a death cert for Mike Wilson and if it gives any info about his place of birth?
PB
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G'day Polar Bear
death cert for Mike Brown says 'Michael William Brown' died 15 Sep 1940 age 75, died at Ipswich Hospital, Ipswich, Qld. Lived in Australia 27 years and was born Acheson, Kansas. Family stories tell us Acheson is Atchison, Kansas.
We have lots of family stories about Mike and Minnie and I have found much evidence to support the Australian parts of the stories - so now they are fact :). It's the stories from outside Aust that are difficult for me to find evidence to support so the stories remain stories till evidence is found to turn them into fact.
One of the family stories about Mike Brown is that he left home when about 13 or 14 years old. He had been working for his uncle JP Brown in Atchison City, Atchison County, Kansas as a driver of carriages taking the Society women of Atchison to their numerous social functions. It is said that Mike Brown got annoyed with this job and quit saying it was 'no job for a man'. It is said that he went off to Montana to work at a chicken ranch, then to the Yukon looking to make his fortune. Next thing we know is the fact that he is in Vancouver BC and getting married to Minnie Wilson and saying he's a farmer in Colby, Washington.
There are some untruths on the marriage cert........Minnie was already married to a Karl Weise. Minnie told a story that he died at sea but the faimly have never found evidence to support that. Minnie had a daughter Annie with Karl Weise in 1910....Annie was said to have been left behind in England with Minnies sister Dorothy (although the 1911 census does not show Annie living with Dorothy)
We all find it unusual that Mike Brown had not married previously to Minnie...or at least he never declared he had a previous marriage. However to his death it is said that he absolutely adored and loved his 3 Aussie born daughters.
Back to Atchison Kansas...family stories written in the 1970's and 1980's all talk about Mike Brown having an Uncle in Atchison and the uncles name was JP Brown (John Patrick and known as JP or Paddy) I have found a bit written about JP as he was a pioneer of Atchison, wealthy Roman Catholic Irishman. I've found JP married in Pennsylvania to a Sarah Wagner.
Back to family stories...they say one of Mike Brown's rellies by marriage was a Mayor Wagner - not sure what city....and can only guess that was before Mike married Minnie.
In a books about the pioneers of Atchison Kansas there is a bit mentioned about JP Brown and his brother Thomas....NO mention of any Mike Brown :( or even the names of JP & Thomas' sisters
Unusual middle names would be marvellous.....Minnie Wilson's father had an unusual middle name - he was Charles Frost Wilson....making his research a little less tedious and less frustrating!
I will get out the family story notes again and see if there could be anything else that could help. My cousins have lent me their folder containing most of the info they have on their grandparents. I will add a further post about the supposed named of Mike Brown's sisters.
Cheerio for now....I must have a short break from computer and do a few essentials like make a cup of tea and check on my hubbie etc.
I am so appreciative of your assistance.
Gerri Down Under where it's a sunny mid-winters day and at 11.45am the thermometer days 15c ;D
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While enjoying a nice salad for lunch on this lovely warm winters day, I had a thought that maybe with all the Browns and Wansbro's (what ever the spelling) showing up in Westmeath, Ireland, that I should put a post on the Westmeath Ireland forum. MAYBE someone has done some further research on the Brown's and/or Wansboro's round Athlone/Glasson which both appear to be in the same dioceses. It may shed some light on my Michael Brown. What does JJ & PB etc think of this suggestion?
Our family stories do say that the Brown's were Irish Catholic.
Back to looking at passenger lists to Australia before 14 Feb 1914 (when Mike and Minnies first daughter was born in Tasmania)
Other than looking more and more I am out of thoughts
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Woah! Wait! What? All of a sudden we now have an uncle & a place in Kansas?
qaghh...good thing I am intrigued...
and no...let's try and find some U.S. info before venturing into Ireland searches..
( resources of which are few as we'd mentioned before)
John Patrick Brown
1860 says 1830 Ireland https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M664-Q3D
1870 JP Brown 1821/22 ireland occ contractor
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11931-66936-69
1880 Interesting, there is a young Thomas Brown, born Ireland in the household!
He's a teamster, so he drives horses...Now could the lads have been sent to the uncle when of working age? ( You'd said Mike was a "driver of carriages") https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MFPJ-FYD
1900 census says he was married 1854 and immigrated 1835
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MMTM-5SW
Sarah widowed in 1910 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M2HK-LBV
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He may have died before 1904 when the house was transferred to a daughter ( perhaps the one Sarah lives with in 1910) I have not found the death
J.P was thought to have been a millionaire. It wouldn't be out of the question to have paid for nephews to come over and then work for him...
Two mini bios...however accurate the info may or may not be...
http://www.kshs.org/resource/national_register/nominationsNRDB/Atchison_BrownJPHouseNR.pdf
http://www.kancoll.org/books/cutler/atchison/atchison-co-p13.html
"J. P. BROWN is one of the oldest settlers of Atchison, having settled in the place March 23, 1859, and resided there since that time. He has been quite prominently identified with the construction of railroads in the State, and also done work of the same kind in Missouri - grading, bridging and finishing ties for the A. & N., a distance of about forty miles. The firm (composed of Messrs. Brown & Bier) did forty miles grading on fifty-three miles of the first one hundred constructed of the C. B. U. P. and also did the grading, furnished the ties, and laid the track on the L. A, & S. W., now at par of the Missouri Pacific.* A. J. McCausland, formerly engaged with Mr. Brown in government and probate freighting, was killed and robbed in 1864, near Gibson's Ferry, between Virginia City and Salt Lake, while returning over the plains in one of Holiday's stage coaches. Besides Mr. McCausland, Mr. Parker, of Kansas, and several others were killed. Messrs. McCausland and Parker were robbed of $60,000 in gold dust. Messrs. Brown & McCausland had carried on the freighting business across the plains for several years prior to this event.
(*Note A. J. McCausland was living with the family 1860)
There still may be a family in the U.S. for Mike though, is there anything else you haven't shared?
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Just in case a 1/2 finished reply posts - I am having some computer issues!!!
If the 1.2 finished reply doesn't post, then I will start again
JP Brown died 1909 and buried Mt Vernon Cemetery, Atchison Kansas.
His wife Sarah died 1915 and buried same cemetery. Pic of headstone on Find A Grave website.
I had already traced JP Brown on the census and that is probably why I didn't mention his earlier.
He is mentioned in publications about the history of Atchison Kansas and I got some interesting info from that - it was on the USA National Archives (or was it library) website..
JP Married Sarah Wagner in Pennsylvania which was where some of their children were born then they settled in Atchison. JP was involved with railway as well as construction, real estate etc and was said to have been a very wealthy man. The Atchison newspapers of the 1880's sure did pick on him.
You will also find JP had a brother Thomas....also written up in one of the histories of Atchison Kansas.
The young Thomas on the 1880 census could have been another nephew from Ireland....maybe brother of my Mike Brown??? But who knows. These are the things I am trying to find out.
My search into Ireland began when I read that JP Brown was from Athlone area in Westmeath, Ireland, and I got overly excited when you sent info on a Michael Brown roughly fitting our Mike Browns age being born in Glassan which is near to Athlone.
Now there are more family stories about my Mike Brown's sisters and aunties. Will put that in the next post.
Must go recharge batteries. Cheerio for now Gerri
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More family stories:
Mike Brown told lots of stories:
1) one of his aunts was kidnapped by Mormons who were dressed as the local Indian tribe....and before you ask I have no idea what the aunties name was or where she was living.
2) Another of his aunts died when the buggy she was travelling in overturned - no idea of where or what her name was.
3) Mike Brown had 2 sisters who were Schoolmarms.
4) Aggie was the name one of Mike Brown's schoolmarm sisters was known as. Aggie may have been Agnes (will give reason I think this further down this post)
5) Mike Brown had an uncle JP Brown who lived in Atchison, Kansas (already discussed this info in previous posts and lots of evidence found that JP Brown did exist! )
6) Mike Brown worked on a chicken ranch in Montana...maybe in his late teens or early 20's.
7) Mike went to Yukon looking to make his fortune - he did not make any fortune
8) Mike Brown had an uncle (by marriage) who was Mayor Wagner. (JP Brown married Sarah Wagner therefore it could be from that part of the family)
It is thought Mike Brown had a younger brother named William..this info came from my cousin who were told this by their mother before she died and their mother was told to her by her mother Minnie...so it all comes down the line and who knows how accurate it is.
Minnie wanted to get birth record of Mike Brown and was told that the courthouse where the records were kept burnt down in 1911 or 1912.
FACTS:
Mike and Minne had 3 daughters.
It is said that at least 2 of the daughter were named after his sisters.
Fact: Mike and Minnie Daughters
A) Mary Margaret Jessie Brown born Queenstown Tasmania,1914
B) Agnes Helen Brown born Queenstown, Tasmania 1916
C) Betty Barbara Brown born Bankstown, Sydney, New South Wales 1924
My cousins say that their mother, Mary Margaret Jessie and her next sister Agnes Helen were named after Mike Browns beloved sisters.
AND we have photos of Mike and Minnie.
I did also find online a photo of JP Brown and his wife...looking for family resemblances
Now I think I have filled you in on everything that I have in the notes from my cousins.
Hope this all makes sense.
Must go get domestic. Cheerio for now Gerri
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hopefully I have attached a photo of Mike Brown - it was suppose to have been taken in Montana
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I found the bit about Thomas, J.P,'s brother...parents are badly referenced (proper grammar can be so important...especially when badly worded sentences can mess up the generations)...but ages put things in order https://archive.org/stream/historyofatchiso01inga#page/452/mode/2up
The publication says Thomas Brown was born Athlone Feb 10 1847
John Brown and Mary Dalton appear to be the parents of J.P. and Thomas...two of the seven children who came over to the U.S. with the mother, leaving three other siblings in Ireland)
Athlone appears to be the source as you say...The others who came over were girls ( Bridget , Mary, Anna, Margaret, Kate married names & locale are also mentioned ) so I imagine it has long been speculated that one of the other three still in Ireland wcould have been Mike Sr. ??
I could not see anything of a bio on John, altho he's referenced several times in the book
ancestry has a Westmeath " Thomam Brown" parents Joannes Brown & Maria Dalton...but I cannot see dates so have no idea if correct era
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The date of baptism for Thomam is 12 May 1842.
PB
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Thanks for the extra info JJ & Polarbear. I've getting busy on Ancestry.com constructing a tree named "Brown Family Atchison, Kansas tree. It's a public tree and I am using all the info from the various historical sources such as the History of Atchison County, Kansas and the JP Brown Historical House...then expanding on it with census, Family Search etc....and MAYBE this will uncover a link to the illusive Mike Brown! Also adding any photos that other researchers have put up of their Brown family ancestors
JJ and Polarbear - your help has got me into a much better place with my research and given me reassurance that I am not going crazy...thanks for your ongoing support ;D. I'm going to add few more entries to the Brown Family of Atchison Kansas tree
Link: http://trees.ancestry.com.au/tree/71466051/person/32244028276
Cheerio for now G
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Great polarbear...wonder if it is one and the same, although Dalton is a bit more common name...altho age is certainly off in the census
This must be the bio you'd found, Gerry ...says mother's maiden name Daulton and that he was born 1829 Westmeath.
https://archive.org/stream/genealogicalbiog00chic#page/46/mode/2up
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Gulielmus Browne....parents Maria Dalton and Joannis Browne!!!
This one would be William .. the father could also have been William Michael....I keep getting different results, but if we could find all ten....mind you the records may not go back far enough
There is also a Margartam Brown & Annam Brown but those are the only four I've been able to come up with so far... :P
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Amazing what you are finding. Wow. JJ where did you find the latest info on Browns? Maria is Latin for Mary and I think Joannis is John. In the History of Atchison it says Thomas Brown has sisters Anna and Margaret.....gee if we aren't on the right track we are getting nearer!
I was just reading page 519-520 of the History of Atchison Kansas. It's about a Walter E Brown who's father was William E Brown born Penn (that's where JP Brown married Sarah Wagner) and Walter's grandfather was Michael Brown, Native of Ireland. Our family story is that our Mike (Michael William) Brown say that Mike had a bother William. ...will have to do more looking to see if I can find a bit more about this Walter E Brown mob!
Chat soon G
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Have you read through every page that has been posted on this thread? I mentioned earlier the names of the girls who emigrated with the 2 lads
It might be on your version of Ancestry... I do not get this result every time I search, I liked the older database better is was far more consistent.
I saw the forenaming used in some older traditional Roman Catholic churches in various areas of England Ireland and Canada...am sure it was used wherever the more staunch traditional priests were posted...... Yes, Joannis is John but can have other variations ( Johannis, johani) ....simpler versions of the other fornames might be Elizae, Thomae, Mariae, Guelme, Michaeli but each priest can have his own versions of the naming.
Joannis is also Jonnis and Joannes just within that family alone
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Glasson is the Civil Registration District for Coosan, Athlone
Abbey Graveyard, Athlone,
O Lord have Mercy on ye
Soul of James Wansborough
who Dept ys Life march 27th
1819 aged 64 yrs Also his Son
who Depd Nov 15th 1816 aged (-2) yrs
Erecd by his Son Robt.
O Lord have mercy on
the Soul of james Brown
who depd ys life in march
the 25th 18(8)4 aged
70 years this Mt was
Erected By his beloved
Son Patt Brown for
them & posterity
(date uncertain - it may be 18(9)4 or 18(3)4
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Thanks Barleyfield for the headstone inscriptions
I contacted St Marys parish at Athlone and they sent me a list of baptism of Browns round the period we are searching and some very interesting info about the records which may be useful to other researchers:
"St. Mary’s Parish there are no records for the years 1827 to 1833 or for the year 1836. There are single entries for the years 1834, 1835, 1837 and 1838. There are no records for 1859 to 1862 or for 1866. The building of the new St Mary’s from 1859 to 1862 can explain why those records went missing but there is no trace of records for the other years at all."
Cheerio for now
Gerri
Down Under on a gloriously sunny winters morning
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Hello, barleyfield & welcome to rootschat! Thanks for joining in! :D :D
Gerry, when you add something in other countries, be sure to give a brief outline of what you know and also link to this thread. You had not mentioned you already had baptisms from Ireland. Polarbear has been working hard behind the scenes to look for more. We don't want to have people put effort into duplicating what is already known.
Still hoping to find some info to make the connection. However....Some ancestors did not want their true information found, and this could well be one of them.
His Montana story of being a very young man is no way portrayed in the uploaded image ...
The marriage states parents that no descendants were ever told about...
His age at marriage makes me wonder if he'd been married previously....
If he was from the U.S. why did he not hurry back to show rellies the new bride ...?
Instead he hightails it to Australia...Yes the parents may have died, but he said he had siblings?
Where are the parents and siblings on U.S. census? Where is he in U.S. census?
Why did he lie about Kansas if he wasn't actually born there?
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Good arvo everyone
My limited Latin agrees that the name Gulielmus translates to William.
Family story says Mike Brown has a brother William and William is suppose to be Mike Brown's middle name (or at least that's what his wife Minnie said on his death certificate)
I just got the info from St Mary's Athlone yesterday....I did not have it before so I could not mention it and I had not ought to thmention that I had emailed to a church in hope of finding more info. I only emailed St Mary's when the Athlone and Glassan Browns showed up with the Brown & Wandsbro as parents and wondered why some of the children were missing.
I was so happy to get a reply...its the first Irish church I have emailed to that has replied to me :o even though the info was the same as already mentioned on this post with the further info from the church regarding which years the records are missing.
It was JJ and Polarbear who found the Glassan Westmeath records. I got lucky to be able to find the Catholic Church of St Marys and would never have found that without JJ and PolarBears help.
Cheers G
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The Mike Brown sitting all dressed up in a very interesting looking room does not say this is a person working on a chicken ranch. I agree. I am passing on information I got from my family.
Family stories say Mike Brown left home age about 13 or 14 and went off to make his fortune. He went to work at a chicken ranch in Montana and that is where this photo was suppose to have been taken. This does not appear to be the photo of a youth and to me looks more like a man at least in his 20s'
What an interesting room he is photographed in. I feel there must be some further clues in that photo. :-\
The facts and family stories do not all line up - I do agree.
However just as I was about to think all the family stories were fiction I did read on pages 519 and 520 in the publication " The History of Atchison County, Kansas" by Sheffield
https://archive.org/stream/historyofatchiso01inga#page/518/mode/2up
Walter E Brown b 1887 Whiting Jackson Ks. Parents William E Brown and Martha Willis Gilmore (Penn). Then it says William E Brown's father was Irishman Michael Brown.
It further says William E Brown went Kansas with his parents in 1872.. and ....according to this book William E Brown's father is Michael Brown. Anyway the book further says these Brown's settled in Brown Co. Kansas. So now it's time to look for William E Brown along with his mother Martha and father Michael in Brown County Kansas....next census would be 1880 or go back to 1870 and look for Michael, Martha and William in Penn in the 1870 census.
I am wondering if my cousins granddad Mike Brown's mother Elizabeth/Lizzy Wainsborough (or however it is spelt) died and granddad Browns father Michael Brown remarried...that does seem possible.
As JJ said not everything adds up.
And family stories say that Granddad Mike Brown was very fond of his sisters. I got thinking and called my cousins to ask if granny Minnie ever met Mike Browns family....and they do not think her did.
So now I have to also wonder why and why did he not take his bride to meet his beloved sisters....and why can't we find those beloved sisters.
However my cousin did call me back and told me that granddad Mike Brown did write to his family and they wrote back but all the letters were destroyed when my cousins family home in Qld got flooded some years ago (in the 1940's or 1950's).
I'm going to look for Michael Brown and his wife Martha and son William E Brown in the 1870 Penn census.
Chat soon G
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I am about over the Browns....correction to my previous post........William Brown had the wife Martha Wallis nee Gilmore not Michael.
I got too many Browns running around my head! :D
And those Browns are not so easy to find in any census!
1 Mar 1875 Kansas census had:
Michael age 43 farmer born Ireland
Catherine age 38 housekeeper born Ireland
William age 18 farmer born Penn
They all lived in NY before moving to Kansas
If Catherine is Michael Brown's wife then Michael Brown senior has either remarried or this is not the Brown family we are looking for.....well that is if granddad Mike Brown told the truth about his parents names on his marriage cert as Mike Brown and Lizzie Wainsborough (sic)! I am guessing finding a death anywhere (Ireland or USA) for an Elizabeth (Lizzie) Brown would be near impossible. I have not had any success yet.
I need a cup of tea. I am interested in what JJ and Polarbear think and Barleyfield with that amazing info on graves from Ireland?
Cheerio for now G
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This is the information I received from St Mary's parish Athlone
John Brown/Mary Dalton Address: Coosan, Athlone, Co. Westmeath, Ireland
Children: 1. Bridget born 19th Nov 1826
2. William born July 1839
3. Thomas born 12th May 1842
4 Margaret born 23rd Sept 1846
Michael Browne/Elizabeth Wansboro. Address: Coosan, Athlone, Co.
Westmeath., Ireland.
Children: 1. Thomas born 3rd Jan 1858
2. Mary born 11th Sept 1863
3. Michael born June 1867
4. Patrick born 11th Feb 1872 (Mother was recorded as
Catherine Wansboro)
Maybe I have just had a lightbulb moment but in my last post I made a comment about Elizabeth maybe died and Michael married a Catherine as shown in the 1875 Kansas census....ummmm.
Well looking at the info from St Mary's I pasted above MAYBE I am correct and MAYBE Michael Brown had a second wife Catherine who could have been the sister(or rellie) of Michael's first wife Elizabeth.
Now to try to find death or marriage in Athlone, Westmeath....but that will have to wait till tomorrow and I am in need of sleep.
Thanks to JJ and Polarbear for giving me information that has helped to think outside the square... ;D
But even if this lightbulb moment has some substance it still does not explain why Granddad Mike Brown does not show up on any census
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This looks like another child for John and Mary.....
Baptized at St Mary's Athlone 14 Jun 1844
Annam Brown
f. Jonnis Brown
m. Marie Dalton
Sponsors Patritio Reilly and Maria Brown
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O.K. I do think it would have been good to add the Parish record information found with the initial posting that it has been found...It took three posts to find out what they had sent...Did they not send the sponsors as polarbear has posted? If they did can you modify the post and add for the ones we do not know...all information holds clues... Note that PB had added info for Anne. Was that a different Parish perhaps if?
The room and decor did not bother me from the Montana photo, he might have worked for a well off chicken farmer...He does, however look a lot older than 20, looks to me between 30 and 40 unless he's had an awfully harsh life for his twenty years ...
If a gal died in childbirth, sisters often stepped in to marry, so a valid theory.
Now that you mention Jackson...I suppose we need to broaden the search to Kansas City, Jackson, Missouri..... ::)
Have you looked for the aunties on census... using their surnames from the publication?
It only states where they were at time of publication...Mike jr. or a clue could be found with them.
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Thanks for the Welcome JJ! You`re welcome Gerry!
Tithe Applotment Book 1805 for Coosan, Hillquarter, Meehan etc
James Wansboro
1824
William Wansborough, Hillquarter, Coursin - 14 acres 4 roods 2 perches
1854 Griffith`s valuation for Hillquarter, Parish of St. Marys
James Wandesborough leasing from John Ennis - 2 acre 1 rood 5 perches
board of education leasing school-house from John Ennis
James Wandesborough leasing house and garden from John Ennis
William Wandesborough leasing house, offices and land from John Ennis
Thomas Brown leasing house, offices and land from John Ennis
Winifred Brown, Creaghduff, Coosan leasing house and garden from John Ennis
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Wow what a pain all these people are to find..Here is Walter ( as Walters) with parents Wm & Martha
but of course there is no age for William ack https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11627-15579-92?cc=1325221
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MMTP-QQM
adding this bio I just found: that William E may have been born circa 1856 N.Y., and Michael his father, also a lumber merchant and farmer, circa 1831 in Ireland. Year of move to Kansas 1872 which means we could be looking for him with an Eliza or Catherine as you say, if we are following this theory through...
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/kansas/biography-of-walter-e-brown.htm
Mr. Brown represents a pioneer name in Kansas history. He was born in Whiting, Kansas, November 17, 1887. His grandfather, Michael Brown, came to Kansas in 1872 and homesteaded 800 acres in the Kickapoo Indian Rescrvation in Brown County. Michael Brown was born in the North of Ireland and was of Irish Presbyterian stock. He came to America at the age of eleven years with his father ( so he came in the 1840s) grew up in Binghamton, New York, and became a lumberman, but followed farming chiefly after his removal to Kansas. The death of this honored old settler occurred at Whiting in 1910, when he was eighty-one years of age.
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That Michael in 1900 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MMTP-ZK6
in 1910 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M2CD-Z87
Now... are off track here.?..Was JP Brown not an uncle? If so JP's father had died, and the mother came to New York...whereas this says the father went to New York with son Michael...? I suppose this story or the other could be wrong. Also would he not have bragged about lumber merchant ancestors in the Browns?
But maybe will let this thread rest a while for now, am getting a bit frustrated...J.J.
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O.K. before signing off for a break, I want to add: Ask the aunties if anything was written down about the sisters. It seems odd that there were letters from the United States...from Michael's sisters, but nothing was written about them or their addresses, at least the State they were in... into the genealogy notes they compiled many years ago???
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Bridget Brown born Nov 19 1826
father John Brown
mother Mary Doltan, Coosan
sponsors; John Killen and Mary Brown
William Browne born 1839
father John Browne
mother Mary Dalton, Coosan
sponsors; John Farrell and Bridget Reilly
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Good afternoon everyone. Had a few things going on here that keep me away from the computer and been monopolizing on my time however living family must come first!
Thanks again JJ, PolarBear and Barleyfields for all your amazing input. I have not quite completed digesting all the information sent over the past few days and hope things are quiet here tonight and I can look at it all again and do some more digesting.
I have committed a big faux pas :o....by not following up on basic information ::)
Mike and Minnie's marriage certificate has been bothering me. I took for granted that St Andrew's Vancouver BC was a Catholic Church but WHY were the religions noted as Pres. My dear cousins said the Presbyterian had to be an error on behalf of the registry. No Error St Andrew's church is Presbyterian.
I got searching for St Andrews and found the attachment that refers to Rev A.C. Cameron MA taking over the Mens Bible Classes from the retiring Mr Dunn.
Rev A.C. Cameron was the Reverend noted as the reverend who married Mike Brown and Minnie Wilson
I have attached page 22 and cover page from the historical publication about St Andrews "St. Andrew's Church, Presbyterian, Vancouver, B.C. : twenty-fifth anniversary, 1888-1913" is they title of my source document.
I have just left a message for my dear old cousins that Mike and Minnie were not wed in a Catholic Church as they so fervently believed. The old dears will be in shock but the evidence was there all along.
Computer freedom for now is short lived....as family needs are calling. Cheerio for now Gerri
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Wansboro Park, beside Shannon, Athlone
The Patritia Reilly sponsor Polarbear found could be my greatgreatgreatgrandfather. Patrick Reilly`s daughter Ann Reilly married to Patrick Harney lived at Wansboro`s lot, Coosan in 1848.
Ann Wansboro was a sponsor to one of my granduncles in 1890.
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G’day all and thanks once more for input from JJ, PolarBear and Barleyfields – lovely image of Wansboro Park, beside Shannon, Athlone.
JJ: I did add all the info sent to me from St Mary’s church, Athlone. No sponsors were included –the info added to the previous post was a copy of the correspondence I received.
I have called my cousins again and asked if they can add any further information about the family and they could only repeat all the stories that I have added previously. They said that they thought Mike Brown had 2 younger sisters and a younger brother who’s name may have been William. They think one of the sisters was Mary Margaret and the other was known as Aggie (Agnes Helen or Helen Agnes maybe) They say these names because their mother told them she was named after one of Mike Browns sisters. My cousins were also told that Mike and Minnie’s second daughter Agnes Helen Brown was named after another of Mike Browns sisters.
I asked again about the letters and photos from Mike Browns family and they again told me that most things were lost when the family house was flooded in the early 1950’s.
It seems Minnie never met Mike Browns family and it is unclear if she ever corresponded with them. I did, however, find out that Minnie did live with my cousins and their parent at the time the home was flooded and that could explain why so much information was lost. Minnie and Mike Brown had been living with one of their other daughter at the time of Mike’s death.
My cousins are not happy with the news that St Andrew’s Vancouver is a Presbyterian Church….they had always thought Mike and Minnie were married in a Catholic Church. However they have accepted that sufficient evidence has been found to support the fact that Rev Angus C Cameron MA was indeed a minister at St. Andrew’s Presbyterian Church, Vancouver in 1913 when they were married there.
And another thought I had was this will also partially explain somewhat why the Scotsman Ralph Swanston was one of the witnesses to their marriage – they may have went to the same men’s bible group or met at the church.
In the 1900 census JJ sent link to William Brown, the lumbar merchant, says he was born in New York and his parents were from Ireland. Being born in NY was supported in the Bio on Walter Brown but not that he came from Ireland. And as already pointed out these Browns were Presbyterian. Walter E Brown also achieved a great status in his lifetime and I would also imagine that would have been a story to pass down in the family too but it was not. Have sent my cousins the link to Walter E Brown bio and will have to wait for their comments. Maybe it will jog a memory?? That is if Walter E Brown is part of the Mike Brown tree.
I am still wondering about the Michael Brown on the 1900 and 1910 census in Whiting, Jackson and all the bios not quite lining up about the Browns….what a shame there was no mention of JP Brown in Atchison in these stories. However the 1910 census does say this Michael Brown migrated in 1839 – he would have been 9 years old so who did Michael Brown go to Nth America with?
Over the next few days I will look again at all the evidence and see if anything lines up. Will re-read all the bio’s and look anything else that may shed some light on Mike Brown.
Other things are urgently demanding most my time – but living family must come first.
Cheerio for now G
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It does appear that barleyfield and polarbear have access to baptism sponsors as they have named several, so if you do find they are useful, I am sure they can round up more info if you ask for it...once there is proof these are yours
I am not sure why you are saying that Michael was born a Presbyterian... also. he must have followed a religion in Australia?? People often married in whatever church was handy...and especially if Minnie was Presby, the ladies often were able to choose the church, sometimes depended who was most staunch in following his or her own religion...
I have, though, been going crazy trying to find these Michael Brown on a U.S. census.
Hope all is well with your family. :)
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Hello Gerri am adding the link to your two other posts....please add them yourself next time. Not sure you should have ventured into Ireland yet, as the connection has not been made.
Westmeath post http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=695260.msg5389196#msg5389196
United States post http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=695256.msg5388265#msg5388265
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Good afternoon JJ, Polarbear, Barleyfield and all
Have been waiting for my cousin to get back to me with more information on Mike Brown. I now have copies of Mike and Minnie's 2 oldest daughters birth certificates. They were both born in Queenstown, Tasmania and both certificates give Mike Brown's place of birth as Kansas City USA (that is exactly what it says - no state just city and country) and both certificates calculate his year of birth to be about 1875. His daughters were born in Tasmania in 1914 and 1916.
It is still not known when the family left Tasmania but the are living in a suburb of Sydney, New South Wales in 1924 when their 3rd daughter was born.
Regarding the family story that the Brown's were Irish Catholic. As we have seen Mike Brown and Minnie Wilson religion is recorded as Presbyterian on their marriage certificate and St Andrew's Vancouver is a Presbyterian church. Minnie Wilson was apparently not a church goer.
Anyway today I read a very interesting article on change of religion by Australian genealogist and author Carol Baxter and this is the link to her newsletter:
http://www.carolbaxter.com/newsletters/2014/History-Detective-2014-8-Sep.pdf
It is an interesting and thought provoking article.
Hope this post finds everyone well and enjoying life. Cheerio for now Gerri Dalton