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Title: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 10:48 BST (UK)
Hello There
My first post here so not sure where to post or go for help. I have been researching my family for a couple of years but am still a total novice. I am now in Australia which makes the task even harder.

I am really stuck with my granddads strand of the tree and would love to find out more so am hoping someone can help me. I lost my mum last year and finding out about her dad has become very important to me as I couldn't get anywhere or tell her much.

His name was Thomas Percy Platt (also known as Percy Thomas Platt) and he was Born in Bolton 1898 to Margaret Platt ( born 1880) - no father listed.

In the 1901 census he is listed as a lodger of Mary Hughes and in 1811 as her adopted son. I am unsure what happened to Margaret. Mary was in her 60's and died in 1913 so grandad was alone. I did find her Will and it appears she left her $80 fortune to her brother.  Percy never talked about that time except to say that it was hard and that he begged outside the mills. I am thinking he maybe ended up in a poorhouse but have no evidence of that.

I know Grandad signed up as a boy soldier in 1914 as life was so hard. Mum believed he had 2 half brothers James (may have been John) who married Doris and Jack who was insane but I have no idea what their surname was. I am guessing these were Margaret s sons also and mum was pretty sure they were also Platt.

I would love to find out more about Margaret and grandads life but have no idea where to go next.My mother remembers visiting an old lady in an Asylum in Bolton around 1950 who was apparently Percys mother.

On a happier note my lovely grandad who I sadly never met made a great success of his Army career becoming Regimental Sargeant Major !

Thanks in Advance for any help or advice.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: PaulineJ on Saturday 19 July 14 10:57 BST (UK)
Erm, How do you know Margaret Platt was born 1880?

What address was (Percy Thomas/ Thomas Percy) Platt born at?
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 19 July 14 11:06 BST (UK)
Hello and welcome  :)

Just one point for now.

With regard to Mary's will, the records show that administration was granted to her brother, which implies there was no will.
As adoption was informal at that time, there would be no legal entitlement to inheritance, I would think.

Regards
Heywood
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Craclyn on Saturday 19 July 14 11:08 BST (UK)
Birth registration for Thomas Percy Platt in Bolton Q4 1898 vol 8c P 501.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Craclyn on Saturday 19 July 14 11:13 BST (UK)
Birth searches for both James Platt and John Platt in Bolton in the right time period give too many results to be able to make an immediate identification of possible candidates for the half brothers.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 19 July 14 11:18 BST (UK)
Firstly, welcome to rootschat Waterloo24.  :)

Do you have Percy's birth certificate? And his marriage certificate? Presumably no father named on his. Birth certificate, but does he name a father on his marriage certificate?

You don't know if Margaret ever married?

Do you have Percy's WW1 service record (am wondering if it names his NOK).

This seems like the sort of puzzle that rootschatters love to get their teeth into.

 
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Craclyn on Saturday 19 July 14 11:20 BST (UK)
There are several Margaret Platt marriages in Bolton in the timeframe that your Margaret could have married after handing over Thomas Percy to Mary. One approach might be to follow each of these through to the next census after marrying and see if they fit on age with your Margaret. This technique may also help you to find James/John and Jack.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 19 July 14 11:24 BST (UK)
There is a Maggie Platt in 1881 and 1891, daughter of Elizabeth Platt who is Welsh and could therefore be related to Mary Hughes - also Welsh.
 

There is also a published tree which shows 2 military records - a Medal record for a Private Platt - did Percy continue after WW1 and a service record which is the wrong man.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 19 July 14 11:32 BST (UK)
Again from a tree, there is a Margaret Platt marriage to a John Knowles.

In 1901 3607/82/35
Maggie Platt is boarding with a couple called Entwistle.

1911 indexes has a Margaret Knowles who fits .
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 11:32 BST (UK)
Hello and thanks for the replies, I will try and reply to all questions below.

I did get grandads birth certificate and his marriage certificate but no father on either.

We have ordered his full military records ( which take months) but I can confirm he was registered as Percy Thomas Platt in the Lancashire Loyal Regiment. He served in WW1 and was stationed in Singapore at the outbreak of WW2 (my mother, grandmother and uncle were evacuated from there just before war broke out)

His mother was Margaret Ann Platt (said she was from Barton Bolton which I may be misreading) and he was born at 44 Silverwell Lane on 19/09/1898 which is where he stayed with Mary Hughes. Margaret was not there in 1901 but I did find a Margaret Platt as a cotton winder age 21 at 33 raphael St, Bolton.

I think she was born in 1880 as I have found a Margaret Ann Platt on the BMD for Jan/ Feb/ Mar 1880 in Bolton - obviously I don't have the date or certificate.

I did see Maggie Platt and had made the welsh connection with Mary but I wondered if she was Maggie why she would revert to Margaret. I also thought maybe Mary and Elizabeth travelled to Bolton together but again I am just speculating.

I did try and search marriages for Margaret but the only one that seems likely was to a John Knowles but I cant make it fit properly. Mum seemed pretty sure the brothers were Platt's also but her memory was not great.

The will I found was for his "adoptive" mother Mary Hughes. I suppose I just felt a little sad that after caring for him from birth he was left penniless and alone at 14   :(

Hope that helps a bit

Thanks again all
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 14 11:33 BST (UK)
Welcome from me too :)

An online tree has his mother Margaret Ann Platt marrying a John Knowles in Bolton 2 Apr 1904 and having sons John and James Knowles with him.

No dates for them, though. Perhaps this was your tree?
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 11:40 BST (UK)
Welcome from me too :)

An online tree has his mother Margaret Ann Platt marrying a John Knowles in Bolton 2 Apr 1904 and having sons John and James Knowles with him.

No dates for them, though. Perhaps this was your tree?

Was just going to say that might be me trying different ideas on ancestry ... I tried adding John Knowles and that surname for the brothers as he seemed the likeliest marriage (if any). I was hoping they would come up as a match in another tree but sadly not.

A distant cousin had Margaret married to John Knowles but when I questioned her she was also just guessing !! 

Thanks
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 14 11:41 BST (UK)
If the mother is Margaret Ann Platt (not "formerly Hughes") the link to the 1880 birth for Margaret Ann Hughes seems odd.  Is there any reason to think she was a Hughes or related to Mary at all?
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Craclyn on Saturday 19 July 14 11:44 BST (UK)
I was just about to ask a similar question to avm228 but from a slightly different angle. If you think she was born Margaret Ann Hughes have you looked for Margaret Hughes on censuses and for a marriage to a Mr. Platt?
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 11:45 BST (UK)
If the mother is Margaret Ann Platt (not "formerly Hughes") the link to the 1880 birth for Margaret Ann Hughes seems odd.  Is there any reason to think she was a Hughes or related to Mary at all?

Sorry I just saw I did that - now amended

I was getting my Margarets and Marys all muddled .... the BMD was for Margaret Ann Platt ::)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 19 July 14 11:48 BST (UK)
This puts my theory of Hughes/ Platt out.

I think Margaret is the daughter of Elizabeth Atherton and William Platt. All the children in the censuses can be see on Lancashire BMD births.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 14 11:49 BST (UK)
Ok then.

Well the 1880 birth reg was in Barton, not Bolton. Could be promising given the Barton reference on the birth cert.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 14 11:52 BST (UK)

I think Margaret is the daughter of Elizabeth Atherton and William Platt. All the children in the censuses can be see on Lancashire BMD births.

Hmmm. I was about to say born Eccles of Joseph & Elizabeth A.  In Barton district in 1881

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQFM-711

 ???
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Annette7 on Saturday 19 July 14 11:58 BST (UK)
As far as I can see the only 'definite' piece of information re. his mother is that on his birth certificate her name is Margaret Ann Platt.  And with no father listed, and with no other surname mentioned, she was single.

At this stage I think you have put too many 'guesstimates' together which don't appear to add up.

Can you tell us the exact wording on the birth certificate - you refer to Barton Bolton (?) which doesn't seem to be a valid place.

Sorry to sound negative but it just seems at this stage that her name is the only definite and her age not known.

Annette
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 19 July 14 12:09 BST (UK)

I think Margaret is the daughter of Elizabeth Atherton and William Platt. All the children in the censuses can be see on Lancashire BMD births.

Hmmm. I was about to say born Eccles of Joseph & Elizabeth A.  In Barton district in 1881

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQFM-711

 ???

I'm going off the Bolton/Wales connection which is probably entirely supposition by me   ::)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 12:13 BST (UK)
As far as I can see the only 'definite' piece of information re. his mother is that on his birth certificate her name is Margaret Ann Platt.  And with no father listed, and with no other surname mentioned, she was single.

At this stage I think you have put too many 'guesstimates' together which don't appear to add up.

Can you tell us the exact wording on the birth certificate - you refer to Barton Bolton (?) which doesn't seem to be a valid place.


Sorry to sound negative but it just seems at this stage that her name is the only definite and her age not known.

Annette

Hi Annette

No worries, I think my typing and mind are running at different speeds.

Margaret is listed as being from Barton ( may even read Bardon as I look again) which is how I made the link with Margaret Ann Platt on the 1880 BMD.

I always associated her with Bolton (and assumed the Bolton bit .... )

Interestingly I grew up near Barton in Lancashire but mum never mentioned any connection ... however she may not have known.

Thanks for your patience
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 19 July 14 12:21 BST (UK)
 Margaret Ann Platt possibly married Richard Wright in Q1 1898  :-\
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Craclyn on Saturday 19 July 14 12:25 BST (UK)
If you ignore the suggested birth date, then another Margaret to consider is Margarett Platt living at Barton upon Irwell in the 1881 census. She is age 10 at the time so born about 1871. Parents John (from Flintshire, Wales) and Hannah. Margaret has birth place Pendleton, but may have remembered Barton as her earliest abode and given it as place of birth in subsequent documentation.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 14 12:29 BST (UK)
Presumably the only source for Barton is as Margaret's abode when she is informant of her son's birth in 1898 ???
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 12:31 BST (UK)
Margaret Ann Platt possibly married Richard Wright in Q1 1898  :-\

Not liking that theory as Grandad was born in September 1898 ...   :(
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 12:34 BST (UK)
Presumably the only source for Barton is as Margaret's abode when she is informant of her son's birth in 1898 ???

That is given as her place of Birth,  she was living at 44 Silverwell Place in Bolton where Percy was born ... the home of the mysterious Mary Hughes but was gone by 1901.

Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 12:35 BST (UK)
If you ignore the suggested birth date, then another Margaret to consider is Margarett Platt living at Barton upon Irwell in the 1881 census. She is age 10 at the time so born about 1871. Parents John (from Flintshire, Wales) and Hannah. Margaret has birth place Pendleton, but may have remembered Barton as her earliest abode and given it as place of birth in subsequent documentation.

Well the Flintshire connection may work as Mary Hughes was from Mold, Flintshire.

Could she be connected to John maybe?
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 14 12:38 BST (UK)
Presumably the only source for Barton is as Margaret's abode when she is informant of her son's birth in 1898 ???

That is given as her place of Birth,  she was living at 44 Silverwell Place in Bolton where Percy was born ... the home of the mysterious Mary Hughes but was gone by 1901.

A mother's place of birth was not stated on birth certificates at that time (unless gratuitous information was given, which would be most unusual).  As Annette says we really need to know exactly what the wording was on the certificate as that is the only proven link to Margaret.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Craclyn on Saturday 19 July 14 12:40 BST (UK)
Which might make the Margaret in Barton upon Irwell a possible candidate if she did not know herself where she was born and just gave the earliest place she remembered. She is still in Barton with her parents in 1891, age 20, spinner in cotton mill. Have not yet looked for her in 1901.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 19 July 14 12:43 BST (UK)
That Margaret may be the one who married Richard Openshaw in 1894 in marriage indexes and 1901, 1911
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 19 July 14 12:46 BST (UK)
It may be an error on the certificate. Is it a copy birth certificate?
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 12:53 BST (UK)
It may be an error on the certificate. Is it a copy birth certificate?

Yes its one I ordered  ???
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 19 July 14 12:55 BST (UK)
Presumably the only source for Barton is as Margaret's abode when she is informant of her son's birth in 1898 ???

That is given as her place of Birth,  she was living at 44 Silverwell Place in Bolton where Percy was born ... the home of the mysterious Mary Hughes but was gone by 1901.

She was not there on census night 1901 but may just have been away for the night. She was gone by 1911 probably married (or possibly she had died  :(). It is possible that Mary Hughes was attached to Percy as he had been born in her home and lived there for years, so at some stage she adopted him.

Are you able to post on here the exact wording of Percy's birth certificate. Also the couple of place names that you are unsure of? We can give you some second opinions.  ;)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 12:56 BST (UK)
Which might make the Margaret in Barton upon Irwell a possible candidate if she did not know herself where she was born and just gave the earliest place she remembered. She is still in Barton with her parents in 1891, age 20, spinner in cotton mill. Have not yet looked for her in 1901.

She was a mill worker - her occupation in 1898 was card tenter  ;D
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 19 July 14 12:59 BST (UK)
Did you order the certificate from the GRO? If so it might be worth buying the same certificate from the local archives, as I believe that the GRO ones are copies and on the local ones you see the original writing. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.  :)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 14 13:01 BST (UK)
There's no reason at the moment to think there is anything wrong with the certificate.  We do need to know exactly what it says, though.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 19 July 14 13:04 BST (UK)
My point is that if it has been transcribed, it may not be Barton on the original.

By the way, Margaret/Maggie Platt who is boarding with the Entwistles in 1901 is a Card Tenter.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 13:08 BST (UK)
Presumably the only source for Barton is as Margaret's abode when she is informant of her son's birth in 1898 ???

That is given as her place of Birth,  she was living at 44 Silverwell Place in Bolton where Percy was born ... the home of the mysterious Mary Hughes but was gone by 1901.

She was not there on census night 1901 but may just have been away for the night. She was gone by 1911 probably married (or possibly she had died  :(). It is possible that Mary Hughes was attached to Percy as he had been born in her home and lived there for years, so at some stage she adopted him.

Are you able to post on here the exact wording of Percy's birth certificate. Also the couple of place names that you are unsure of? We can give you some second opinions.  ;)

Thank you

I only have the short copy here, my brother has another in the UK but I will give you what I have

Where and when born 19th Sepember 1898 44 Silverwell Lane Bolton
Name Thomas Percy
Name of Mother - Margaret Ann Platt an Operative Cotton Winder
Signature of Informant M Ann Platt (Mother) - Thought it a bit odd that she emphasized Ann

Thanks
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 13:12 BST (UK)
Did you order the certificate from the GRO? If so it might be worth buying the same certificate from the local archives, as I believe that the GRO ones are copies and on the local ones you see the original writing. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.  :)

Thanks
The one I have here I ordered on line as I am in Australia ... my brother collected one from the local records office so I am trying to work from both which is a bit confusing.
 :(
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 14 13:14 BST (UK)
No mention of Barton there then?  There should be an address for the informant.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 13:16 BST (UK)
My point is that if it has been transcribed, it may not be Barton on the original.

By the way, Margaret/Maggie Platt who is boarding with the Entwistles in 1901 is a Card Tenter.

And I thought I was being clever ordering it ... seems to have raised more questions than it answered.
Was expecting a cosy mother father and baby scenario  :)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 19 July 14 13:18 BST (UK)
If your brother has the original could you ask him to scan it and send it to you?

Apologies if I am missing something here (highly likely  ::)), but where does it say that Margaret is from Barton Bolton? On the certificate your brother has?

I also did not think you could order a 'short' version of a certificate from 1898. (I have never been given this option when ordering certificates from the GRO)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 13:18 BST (UK)
No mention of Barton there then?  There should be an address for the informant.

No, unfortunately I have a short one that I ordered online. I sent the full one home to mum in a folder I had made when she was sick. I am getting my brother to scan it to me as that one came from the local records office and has Barton / Bardon on it.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 13:29 BST (UK)
Oh my goodness I feel so stupid ... his doesn't say Barton either ... I have no idea where I got that from. I must have seen it somewhere !!

His just says the same as mine.

Told you I was not very good at this .. apologies for what may be a red herring ... I shall just crawl under a rock  :-[
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 19 July 14 13:36 BST (UK)
No worries - maybe in your trawlings of the censuses, you saw the ones from Barton  :)
My favourite is Maggie up to now.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 19 July 14 13:45 BST (UK)
So on the certificates, is there an address for the informant, (ie Margaret) and if so it is 44 Silverwell Place?
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 13:46 BST (UK)
No worries - maybe in your trawlings of the censuses, you saw the ones from Barton  :)
My favourite is Maggie up to now.

Thank you ... it does drown me sometimes.

I like Maggie too ... the welsh link with her mother Elizabeth is interesting.

x
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 19 July 14 13:55 BST (UK)
I'm trying to make sense of your family memories  ;) I am also doing what I advise not to do and that is making things fit  ::)

Margaret and John Knowles had a child James 1905 who I think died in 1908. However, you need to look at the entry for Margaret Knowles in 1911  :-\

Margaret had a child Dorothy in 1913 - no father named on baptism.

Maggie had brothers James and John.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 13:57 BST (UK)
So on the certificates, is there an address for the informant, (ie Margaret) and if so it is 44 Silverwell Place?

I will try an attach it .... fingers crossed  ;)

Nope its too big

Under name and address of informant it says -  M Ann Platt 44 Silverwell Lane Bolton

He was registered on 20/10/1898
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 19 July 14 13:59 BST (UK)
So on the certificates, is there an address for the informant, (ie Margaret) and if so it is 44 Silverwell Place?

I will try an attach it .... fingers crossed  ;)

Nope its too big

Under name and address of informant it says -  M Ann Platt 44 Silverwell Lane Bolton

He was registered on 20/10/1898

Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 19 July 14 14:01 BST (UK)
You can only attach a snippet - not the whole certificate.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 14:10 BST (UK)
I'm trying to make sense of your family memories  ;) I am also doing what I advise not to do and that is making things fit  ::)

Margaret and John Knowles had a child James 1905 who I think died in 1908. However, you need to look at the entry for Margaret Knowles in 1911  :-\

Margaret had a child Dorothy in 1913 - no father named on baptism.

Maggie had brothers James and John.

I know, I can imagine my mother is getting very frustrated that I didn't listen enough .. but I did  :D

I just so want to make sure its right for her and Percy.

If Maggie had brothers names James and John that is good as mum defiantly met Percy s brothers. One believed he was Jesus and was mad as a hatter. But if James died mum can't have met him.

She never mentioned a Dorothy  :(

I am wondering if I can find Maggies (Margarets) death certificate in some way and work back that might validate it. Mum remembers visiting Margaret in an asylum around 1950 and she died around that time.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 19 July 14 14:14 BST (UK)
Thank you all for your help.

Despite the fact I am sorely tempted to stay here as you are all so helpful ... in Australia it is after 11pm.

Please do not think I am not responding to any kind offers of help or ideas, I am simply in the land of not .... trying to sleep off my confusion.

Many Many thanks to all x
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 19 July 14 14:17 BST (UK)
Try to sleep on it.  :)

It is all far too tenuous to attach any reality to Maggie at the moment.

I can't see a birth for a John to her- just Dorothy and James. I had wondered if Doris/Dorothy were being confused.

Goodnight
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 19 July 14 14:52 BST (UK)
Mum remembers visiting Margaret in an asylum around 1950 and she died around that time.

Was this Margaret definitely Percy's mother (and not another relative?)

I don't suppose you know whereabouts this asylum was? (Or why she was in the asylum?  :-\)

As this is a factual event I wonder if we can work backwards - maybe try to get some admission records? There can't have been too many asylums in the 50s (could there? :-\)

One more thing, have you spoken to your brother to see if he has any further memories of Percy's family? Sometimes family members pick up different snippets of information.


Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 19 July 14 15:02 BST (UK)
I have just looked for deaths for Margaret Knowles from 1948 to 1960. Presuming she died in Lancashire, there are a manageable number.

If you can narrow down the years that the Margaret your Mum visited died, and if you know the area the asylum was located (if she died in the asylum), then there are not really too many with the middle initial A. (but of course her death may not be registered with the middle initial A  :().

Even if you find the death of the Margaret who was married to John Knowles, you still need more proof that she is your Margaret Ann Platt.  :-\
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 19 July 14 15:37 BST (UK)
Ruskie, I am going round and round  :D

Just a bit more snippets I have seen and am now stopping. I won't give great detail!

The published trees give Maggie's mother as Elizabeth Oldfield - deduced, I think from a child having that middle name.
I think she is Elizabeth Atherton - marriage certificate states she is illegitimate.

Mary Hughes, single woman, is adoptive mother of Thomas Percy. Her age varies.

A Mary Hughes is visiting,in 1861, a John and Ann Lloyd. I can't see a marriage  :-\ but he is a widower in 1851.
There is an Ann Atherton in 1851!  Ann and Elizabeth Atherton and Mary Hughes are all born in Flintshire.

Now of course this is insufficient to link all together.

Waterloo said earlier that Mary Hughes' estate went to her brother - how do we know this? It just says administration granted to Edward Hughes, formerly a collier  :-\
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 19 July 14 15:47 BST (UK)
Gosh Heywood, that is complicated - but you've made some very good possible logical connections. Your head must be spinning!  :D

PS. Good point about Edward Hughes perhaps not being Mary's brother.

Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Sunday 20 July 14 00:46 BST (UK)
Good Morning  ;D

You are all so clever and so thoughtful for working on this for me.

I had a chat with dad this morning ... a bit difficult as he is still grieving and mum talk can be difficult. I asked him about the brothers and he remembers visiting one in Bolton to tell him Percy had died. This would have been in 1955. The bad news is he thinks his name was George ( but he admits it was a long time ago).

Mum said she visited Margaret in the Asylum when she was about 18 so that would have been around 1948/9. She thought it was in Bolton ( but mum thought everywhere was Bolton). However it would have been in that area. As Margaret died whilst Percy was alive she must have died between then and 1955. Mum said she died not long after the visit so I am guessing that's why Percy went. Mum has no memories of Margaret prior to that day or afterwards.

 I did try to research Asylum deaths but could only find one and she was too old (I was searching for Margaret Ann Platt though).

As for the will ... I deduced that from the will record and the census I found from Mary Hughes in Wales. I am sure Edward was her brother. She was listed as a spinster from 1901 so didn't think about marriages for her.

I will have a read through and digest all the ideas that have kindly been posted overnight

Thanks again, it really is appreciated
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Sunday 20 July 14 09:21 BST (UK)
Hi again,
When you have read this and gathered your own information, will you post the census information you have for Edward and Mary Hughes please.
If Percy definitely had brothers, then it looks as though  Margaret Platt Knowles isn't the one  :-\
Thanks
Heywood
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Sunday 20 July 14 09:54 BST (UK)
Hi again,
When you have read this and gathered your own information, will you post the census information you have for Edward and Mary Hughes please.
If Percy definitely had brothers, then it looks as though  Margaret Platt Knowles isn't the one  :-\
Thanks
Heywood

Hello there

I was always leaning towards John Knowles but it was only an inkling  :)

As you know I am rubbish at copying stuff but I thought this was her on the 1851 Wales Census :

Name:   Mary Hughes
Age:   10
Estimated birth year:   abt 1841
Relation:   Daughter
Father's Name:   William Hughes
Mother's name:   Elizabeth Hughes
Gender:   Female
Where born:   Hawarden, Flintshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township:   Ewloe Town
County/Island:   Flintshire
Country:   Wales
Registration district:   Great Boughton
Sub-registration district:   Cathedral Division
ED, institution, or vessel:   20
Piece:   2172
Folio:   764
Page Number:   53
Household schedule number:   213
Household Members:   
Name   Age
William Hughes   47
Elizabeth Hughes   45
Edward Hughes   20
Edwin Hughes   12
Mary Hughes   10
William Hughes   8
Edmund Hughes   5
Thomas Hughes   2
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Sunday 20 July 14 10:12 BST (UK)
The difficulty is that Hughes is a very common name - we will try to look that family up later. Fancy having Edward, Edwin and Edmund in the same family  :D

It may be that if it is Maggie, Mary Hughes may not be a family connection at all - although I have remembered as I type, there is a Mary Hughes visiting that Lloyd/Atherton household and they have a David Robert Hughes as a nephew. I have traced him I think and his father was Robert Hughes!
If you recall Maggie's mum is an Atherton.
It's best to forget all that for a while - too confusing!

Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Sunday 20 July 14 10:28 BST (UK)
The difficulty is that Hughes is a very common name - we will try to look that family up later. Fancy having Edward, Edwin and Edmund in the same family  :D

It may be that if it is Maggie, Mary Hughes may not be a family connection at all - although I have remembered as I type, there is a Mary Hughes visiting that Lloyd/Atherton household and they have a David Robert Hughes as a nephew. I have traced him I think and his father was Robert Hughes!
If you recall Maggie's mum is an Atherton.
It's best to forget all that for a while - too confusing!

At least you understand why I was struggling ... dads side was far easier !

I was looking at Elizabeth Atherton and William Platt when Percy was born which shows nothing interesting excepts for their 30 year old neighbour ... John Thomas Hughes ... the mind boggles  ;D



Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Sunday 20 July 14 12:55 BST (UK)
More confusion - sorry I am noting all these and after all there may be no connection. ::)

I have sorted out one Hughes puzzle thanks to a tree.

1861 has a Mary Hughes visiting john and Ann Lloyd and I thought she was Atherton. There is also a nephew David Robert Hughes.

She was in fact Ann Hughes married to 1) Timothy Pendlebury and 2) John Lloyd. Her father was David Hughes, farmer.
I had previously seen that young David R Hughes was son of Robert and Ellen.
Their marriage shows father as David, farmer.

Now - is Mary Hughes visitor, our Mary? Or is she another Mary H?

As ever, I hope I am not complicating matters too much and none of this is finding Margaret Platt!
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Sunday 20 July 14 13:17 BST (UK)
More confusion - sorry I am noting all these and after all there may be no connection. ::)

I have sorted out one Hughes puzzle thanks to a tree.

1861 has a Mary Hughes visiting john and Ann Lloyd and I thought she was Atherton. There is also a nephew David Robert Hughes.

She was in fact Ann Hughes married to 1) Timothy Pendlebury and 2) John Lloyd. Her father was David Hughes, farmer.
I had previously seen that young David R Hughes was son of Robert and Ellen.
Their marriage shows father as David, farmer.

Now - is Mary Hughes visitor, our Mary? Or is she another Mary H?

As ever, I hope I am not complicating matters too much and none of this is finding Margaret Platt!

Mary and Margaret are monkeys are they not ... the pair of them have had me running round in similar circles for 2 years.

I do believe that the key to finding my Margaret Platt is to try and find her link to Mary .. I strongly believe there must be one and that Mary ages with Margaret's  mother (or maybe Hughes is Percy s fathers family)

When you said A Mary Hughes is visiting,in 1861, There is an Ann Atherton in 1851!  Ann and Elizabeth Atherton and Mary Hughes are all born in Flintshire.Is Ann Atherton another Ann or the one you mentioned above?

Bet you are sorry you even looked at this now  ::)


Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Craclyn on Sunday 20 July 14 13:23 BST (UK)
On the subject  of Flintshire, did we ever rule out the Maragaret Platt I mentioned in reply 22? Her Dad John was from Flintshire. We stopped looking at her when Barton dropped out of the equation, but she had the right type of occupation and may be worth a closer look.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Sunday 20 July 14 13:26 BST (UK)
On the subject  of Flintshire, did we ever rule out the Maragaret Platt I mentioned in reply 22? Her Dad John was from Flintshire. We stopped looking at her when Barton dropped out of the equation, but she had the right type of occupation and may be worth a closer look.

Do you know, I lost her in my Barton madness ... thank you so much for reminding me. I shall investigate her next  ;D
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Sunday 20 July 14 14:30 BST (UK)
That Margaret may be the one who married Richard Openshaw in 1894 in marriage indexes and 1901, 1911

I think this is Magaret Platt from Barton  :-\

Waterloo, at the moment we'll put Ann Atherton aside.

Now looks like Ann Hughes married, as a widow to John Lloyd. A Mary Hughes was a visitor to them. I'll go back and look!
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Sunday 20 July 14 21:50 BST (UK)
I have just had a really odd thought.

I always assumed from the Percy s birth certificate that Margaret was an unmarried young woman ... could she have been married / widowed ?

Well I suppose she could .. just an angle I never even considered.

 ???

Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Craclyn on Sunday 20 July 14 22:14 BST (UK)
 A possibility, but given the era, be aware that if she was a Mrs. Platt that she would probably have been tempted to put Mr. Platt on the birth cert as the father even if he was long gone. Just had an example of that in my family where the biological Dad's surname was used as the middle name and the husband who had been dead for 3 years was registered as the father.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Sunday 20 July 14 22:17 BST (UK)
agree with Craclyn also it would show Platt formerly  ....  (or similar)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: ..claire.. on Sunday 20 July 14 22:34 BST (UK)
Hi

Just a thought, just reading Craclyn's post about the use of a fathers surname as a middle name.

I know he was registered as Thomas Percy, but what if Thomas could have been a 'nod' towards the father?

In the last census Percy appears on, there are two other boarders,  Frederick THOMAS bn 1902 and John THOMAS bn 1905 ( FreeBMD birth reg for John give him a middle name PERCY) . Both born Kendal, Westmorland.

Just a thought.

claire
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Sunday 20 July 14 22:44 BST (UK)
Claire,
I remember looking those names up and noticed the Percy middle name and then forgot all about it  ::) :D
It seems well worth looking at.
heywood
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: ..claire.. on Sunday 20 July 14 22:47 BST (UK)
Just been checking births etc.

There were three THOMAS births in Kendal between 1900-1905, Frederick and John, and a third.
 
The third child, Ronald Evelyn Thomas was bn 1904. His parents were Herbert H C Thomas and Sarah Jane Smith, who married 1903 . I can trace these three through births, census marriage and deaths. Can't link them to the two boys lodging with Mary Hughes.

Although in 1901 Sarah Jane Smith was living in Scalthwaiterigg, Kendal at 22 Mint Street with mother and siblings. At number 25 Mint Street a Frank PLATT aged 28, and born Bolton le Moors is living with his wife Alice.

claire
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Monday 21 July 14 09:27 BST (UK)
Oh my goodness

This is turning into a true Sherlock Holmes type mystery ... very exciting.

I did notice the other 2 boys on the next census but didn't pay too much attention.

Very interesting that there is a John also. Also interesting is that mums brother (Percys son) was called Frank Platt ... did Percy know more than I think !

I shall look myself but am usually more of a hinderance than a help  ;D
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Monday 21 July 14 13:35 BST (UK)
Just been checking births etc.

There were three THOMAS births in Kendal between 1900-1905, Frederick and John, and a third.
 
The third child, Ronald Evelyn Thomas was bn 1904. His parents were Herbert H C Thomas and Sarah Jane Smith, who married 1903 . I can trace these three through births, census marriage and deaths. Can't link them to the two boys lodging with Mary Hughes.

Although in 1901 Sarah Jane Smith was living in Scalthwaiterigg, Kendal at 22 Mint Street with mother and siblings. At number 25 Mint Street a Frank PLATT aged 28, and born Bolton le Moors is living with his wife Alice.

claire

Hi Claire,
I am just curious now - nothing to do with our Platt search.
Just a query re the Thomas family. I have seen a couple of records which are not really helpful but wonder if you have them in 1911?
Heywood
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: ..claire.. on Monday 21 July 14 22:28 BST (UK)
Hi Heywood

Spent ages looking for them in 1911. They are in Faversham Kent, but transcript says they were all born West Grinstead, Sussex ( the actual image says Westmorland Kendal ~source Anc*  :o ).

Also found an article giving Herberts full name and occupation ~inspector of factories and workshops ~ same as census.

Herbert Thomas bn 1879 West Grinstead, Sussex

claire


Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Monday 21 July 14 22:44 BST (UK)
Thanks Claire.  :)

It was really frustrating- I found him at University and the death and probate of Ronald. I wondered if maybe the couple had more than one child but it seems that the two Thomas children are not theirs.

regards
heywood
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Tuesday 22 July 14 09:05 BST (UK)
I cant find them anywhere either.

I also searched for Thomas Bramall who was the only other person there in 1911 .. cant find him either after 1911.

Everyone around Percy is a mystery indeed x
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 22 July 14 09:18 BST (UK)
Looks as though the Thomas couple are not the parents of those Thomas boys. So another mystery but perhaps not ours  :-\
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Tuesday 22 July 14 10:05 BST (UK)
Well the Thomas thing got me searching and I have found a Margaret Ann Thomas who died in 1945 aged 63 ... interesting thing is she died at 449 Rochdale Road,  Oldham which at first glance seems to be an asylum / hospital / poorhouse.

Probably not my Margaret Ann but Oldham is certainly close enough to Bolton for my mum to have been confused and her age and date of death are all promising.Mum would have been 15 not 18 but she was never sure exactly when it was.

I will keep looking but if anyone can help trace her back to eliminate her or maybe just maybe not I would be most greatful

Thanks again



Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: jorose on Tuesday 22 July 14 11:46 BST (UK)
A few other things to check:

There is a Platt/Knowles marriage in 1939 in Bolton which might be of interest could be brother to Thomas Percy + "Doris"?

Searching 1911 with "relationship to head" = "grandson", and resident in Bolton there are a James and John Platt who turn up (not sure if actually in same household).  There's a James listed as "nephew" elsewhere as well.

Have we discounted the 1914 Margaret A Platt marriage in Bolton (to Henry Cooke)?  Can't see any kids in the area to them...  Also the 1900 marriage of Margaret Platt in Bolton to Samuel Hutchison (http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk shows both of these as register office marriages which unfortunately means there's no way of accessing them except by getting the certificate).

I certainly can't find the Hutchinsons in 1901 - anybody else less blind? (I don't think he's the single Samuel in Bolton - think that's probably a different fellow who married in 1901 unless he separated from Margaret very quickly).
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Tuesday 22 July 14 12:47 BST (UK)
A few other things to check:

There is a Platt/Knowles marriage in 1939 in Bolton which might be of interest could be brother to Thomas Percy + "Doris"?

Searching 1911 with "relationship to head" = "grandson", and resident in Bolton there are a James and John Platt who turn up (not sure if actually in same household).  There's a James listed as "nephew" elsewhere as well.

Have we discounted the 1914 Margaret A Platt marriage in Bolton (to Henry Cooke)?  Can't see any kids in the area to them...  Also the 1900 marriage of Margaret Platt in Bolton to Samuel Hutchison (http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk shows both of these as register office marriages which unfortunately means there's no way of accessing them except by getting the certificate).

I certainly can't find the Hutchinsons in 1901 - anybody else less blind? (I don't think he's the single Samuel in Bolton - think that's probably a different fellow who married in 1901 unless he separated from Margaret very quickly).

Thank you for that.

I strongly suspect that may be John and Doris .. will I need to order the certificate (I am in Australia but can get my brother to order it). I did do a quick search to see if they were in any published trees but can't see them.

Margaret s many potential marriages are exhausting .. but they are 2 new ones for me to try  ::)

I am not sure how to do the census search the way you advised .. I have searched all 1911 census' on Ancestry and cant see them .. is there another site I should try?

Thanks again for your help x

Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Craclyn on Tuesday 22 July 14 12:52 BST (UK)
You can order certificates from www.gro.gov.uk. Takes a little longer for delivery if it has to be sent out of the country, but works fine.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Craclyn on Tuesday 22 July 14 12:57 BST (UK)
thegenealogist.co.uk enables searching on relationship to the head of the house by using the keyword field to enter the relationship.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Tuesday 22 July 14 12:57 BST (UK)
You can order certificates from www.gro.gov.uk. Takes a little longer for delivery if it has to be sent out of the country, but works fine.

Thank you .. I shall do that tomorrow .. hopefully Margaret is on there  :D
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Tuesday 22 July 14 12:58 BST (UK)
thegenealogist.co.uk enables searching on relationship to the head of the house by using the keyword field to enter the relationship.

Perfect .. thank you x
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 22 July 14 15:32 BST (UK)
thegenealogist.co.uk enables searching on relationship to the head of the house by using the keyword field to enter the relationship.

Ancestry allows you to select relationship to head as well  :)
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2352
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: jorose on Tuesday 22 July 14 17:45 BST (UK)
I just use http://www.1911census.co.uk/

It's a method I sometimes use when circumstances suggest we might be looking for children who are living with persons other than their birth parents.
keywords might include:
adopted
grandson/grandchild
nephew
nurse/foster child
lodger/boarder
stepson/stepchild
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: iolaus on Tuesday 22 July 14 19:54 BST (UK)
You say that his mother was visited in a lunatic asylum in the 1950s, it's possible she was admitted before 1901 (hence why Percy isn't with his mother) - could also link with the illigimate nature as some women were admitted to asylums for having children out of wedlock

In Lancaster Lunatic Asylum (which has other people from Bolton area) there is a M A P - single female (aged 40 - which may be the down point, how sure are you of her date of birth), unknown place of birth a cotton operator
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Tuesday 22 July 14 21:53 BST (UK)
You say that his mother was visited in a lunatic asylum in the 1950s, it's possible she was admitted before 1901 (hence why Percy isn't with his mother) - could also link with the illigimate nature as some women were admitted to asylums for having children out of wedlock

In Lancaster Lunatic Asylum (which has other people from Bolton area) there is a M A P - single female (aged 40 - which may be the down point, how sure are you of her date of birth), unknown place of birth a cotton operator

I did consider that but as there were 2 brothers ( I have always assumed younger .. but nothing is simple or 100% here) I thought Margaret s admission would have been later - at least after they were born.

I mentioned earlier that I had always imagined a young unmarried mother but I am also now considering that may not necessarily be the case. If she was 40 in 1901 she would have been a very old lady when mum visited but it is certainly not impossible

Thanks  :)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Tuesday 22 July 14 21:54 BST (UK)
thegenealogist.co.uk enables searching on relationship to the head of the house by using the keyword field to enter the relationship.

Ancestry allows you to select relationship to head as well  :)
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2352

Thank you .. by the way we have exactly the same dog  ;D
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Tuesday 22 July 14 21:55 BST (UK)
I just use http://www.1911census.co.uk/

It's a method I sometimes use when circumstances suggest we might be looking for children who are living with persons other than their birth parents.
keywords might include:
adopted
grandson/grandchild
nephew
nurse/foster child
lodger/boarder
stepson/stepchild

Thank you x
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: iolaus on Wednesday 23 July 14 10:47 BST (UK)
You are assuming Percy's half brother was from his mother's side - just because his father wasn't listed on his birth certificate doesn't mean they didn't know who he was (of course that could well mean you are never going to find them)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Wednesday 23 July 14 11:03 BST (UK)
You are assuming Percy's half brother was from his mother's side - just because his father wasn't listed on his birth certificate doesn't mean they didn't know who he was (of course that could well mean you are never going to find them)

I am almost certain they had the same mother. Percy had contact with them and (John?) visited her in the asylum also.
Mum said they were full brothers and their name was Platt also but that I am not certain of.
I am hoping Percys Military records reveal something and I will order the marriage cert for John and Doris Platt .. apart from that I am still struggling.
The only thing I have for certain is her name and the fact she died around 1950 in an asylum.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Monday 11 August 14 11:45 BST (UK)
Just a quick update ... still waiting for Percy s military records.
I have been researching the Thomas boys who are indeed elusive but have today stumbled upon a birth registration for John in October 1905 in Kendal Westmoreland and his name is actually John Percy Thomas.
So the theory that these two may actually be the brothers I am looking for looks quite possible.
Cant find anything on Frederick Thomas yet but feeling a little excited so wanted to share :-) x
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: rosie99 on Friday 15 August 14 07:07 BST (UK)
Are you planning to send for the birth certificate for John Percy Thomas to confirm his mother

Rosie
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Friday 15 August 14 09:00 BST (UK)
Hi Rosie

Yes I have ordered it.

I have now found Frederick also on July/ Aug/ Sep 1902 so have ordered that too.

Still no further trace of them apart from living with Percy in 1911.

I am really hoping they had a mother and father listed

Thanks  ;D
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Friday 15 August 14 09:31 BST (UK)
So do I! I hope you get somewhere with this.  :)

Heywood
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Friday 15 August 14 09:47 BST (UK)
Thank you Heywood

Also noticed trawling back that someone had noticed the Percy link earlier .. you lot are very clever.

I will be sure to post when I get the certificates and the elusive military records x
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Tuesday 02 September 14 10:26 BST (UK)
Well first of all I need to thank everyone for your help and the suggestion of the Thomas boys possible connection to my granddad ... actually feel a little emotional after receiving their birth certificates today :

Frederick Thomas 22nd July 1902
Father John Bramwell Thomas Drapers Assistant
Mother Margaret Ann Thomas Formerly Platt
4 Grass? Class?  Street Kendal

John Percy Thomas 16th October 1905
Father John Bramwell Thomas Drapers Assistant
Mother Margaret Ann Thomas Formerly Platt
32 Union Street Kendal

 So they are his brothers :-)

And I am guessing that John Bramwell Thomas is his father as well ( hence the reason he is living with Percy and the boys in 1911 in Bolton)

I guess my next step is to try and find Margaret and Johns marriage certificate so I can get more details on them both.
Also need to find them on the 1901 census in Kendal.

As always my mind is now wondering about a million things .. where was Margaret in 1911 .. surely not already in the asylum?

Any help from here as always would be much appreciated and Thank you so much to everyone who has played a part so far in helping me find such an important part of my puzzle x




Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: ..claire.. on Tuesday 02 September 14 11:26 BST (UK)
Hi,

What good news, you are finally getting some answers.

Just going back over some of the replies you mentioned a Margaret Ann Thomas that died in 1945 at 449 Rochdale Road Oldham. That was actually the General Hospital and formally the workhouse. The link tells you all about it.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Oldham/

Claire
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 02 September 14 11:35 BST (UK)
That's great news and as you say, quite emotional.

John BT may not be his father though- they may just be half brothers. I only say that because he would have been called Thomas, I would think. Nevertheless, it is a brilliant find.  :)


Heywood
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Tuesday 02 September 14 11:41 BST (UK)
Thank you Claire

I was just looking at that again myself.

I think I have found Margaret and John in Westmorland in 1901 .. she is stated as 29 and he 49 .. so the in 1945 she would have been 75 not 65 as the death record but I guess that could be an error.

Really hoping she was not in an Asylum all those years x

Hi,

What good news, you are finally getting some answers.

Just going back over some of the replies you mentioned a Margaret Ann Thomas that died in 1945 at 449 Rochdale Road Oldham. That was actually the General Hospital and formally the workhouse. The link tells you all about it.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Oldham/

Claire
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 02 September 14 11:42 BST (UK)
Where did you find the record re her death in Oldham?
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Tuesday 02 September 14 11:45 BST (UK)
Thank you Heywood .. you were a big support in getting me here.

I suspected he was Percys dad due to the fact that Percy was actually Thomas Percy and there was mention that the name Thomas may be a nod to the father.

Also I am wondering why John would have moved to Bolton from Kendal with his sons to live with Percy if there was no connection ... does that make sense?

Thanks again

That's great news and as you say, quite emotional.

John BT may not be his father though- they may just be half brothers. I only say that because he would have been called Thomas, I would think. Nevertheless, it is a brilliant find.  :)


Heywood
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Tuesday 02 September 14 11:52 BST (UK)
Just trying to find it again now as I didn't save it ... it was a probate record I am pretty sure as I saw the full address  :-)

Where did you find the record re her death in Oldham?
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 02 September 14 11:53 BST (UK)
Of course it makes sense- I just am erring on the side of caution.

It looks as though JBT may have been married to Lily Blake - online tree.
He seems to be in Stretford in 1881 and Southport in 1891.

Do you need details?

I'll look re probate too. :)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Tuesday 02 September 14 12:08 BST (UK)
It was not probate sorry ... found it now.

Not very good at explaining but its on ancestry under

Manchester, England, Deaths and Burials, 1813-1985 for Margaret Ann Thomas

Chadderton, St Matthew 1942 - 1947

I think I have found him and Margaret together in Kendal in 1901. If so he was 20 years older than her so probably was married ... could also explain why he was not named on Percy s Birth Certificate in 1898.

Southport and Kendal are pretty close :-) x

Thanks a million



Of course it makes sense- I just am erring on the side of caution.

It looks as though JBT may have been married to Lily Blake - online tree.
He seems to be in Stretford in 1881 and Southport in 1891.

Do you need details?

I'll look re probate too. :)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 02 September 14 15:13 BST (UK)
There is a Margaret Ann Thomas with husband Richard living in Chadderton, Oldham in census.
Looking at the couple and those burials at St Matthew's, I would say that she is not yours. They are both annotated with  941 which is presumably the plot number.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Wednesday 03 September 14 09:13 BST (UK)
Thanks Heywood .. any details as always would be greatly appreciated.

Cant find a marriage for Margaret and John anywhere or any trace of her in 1911.

John appears elusive also ( the is Thomas Bramall IN 1911) and 1 birth certificate says Bramall as the middle name, the other Bramwell :-(

Of course it makes sense- I just am erring on the side of caution.

It looks as though JBT may have been married to Lily Blake - online tree.
He seems to be in Stretford in 1881 and Southport in 1891.

Do you need details?

I'll look re probate too. :)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 03 September 14 10:04 BST (UK)
John Bramall Thomas marries Martha Hannah Blake in 1874-Chester.

1871 she is at home and is a Draper's assistant.
1881 she is known as Lily Thomas
1881 John B Thomas - Draper's assistant with wife Lily and child Harry B

Harry B in 1901 is lodging in Worcestershire - he is a Draper's assistant!

I have to go out now - will pick up later.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Wednesday 03 September 14 10:37 BST (UK)
Thanks so much .. I have found her and Harry in 1911 when John was in Bolton ... says she is married and has been for 37 years .. poor thing :-( x

John Bramall Thomas marries Martha Hannah Blake in 1874-Chester.

1871 she is at home and is a Draper's assistant.
1881 she is known as Lily Thomas
1881 John B Thomas - Draper's assistant with wife Lily and child Harry B

Harry B in 1901 is lodging in Worcestershire - he is a Draper's assistant!

I have to go out now - will pick up later.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 06 September 14 11:45 BST (UK)
Just putting down my thoughts (in an attempt to clear my brain fog)

I know that Thomas Percy Platt was born 1898 to Margaret Ann Platt at 44 Silverwell Lane – no father listed. Thomas Percy (or Percy as he was known)  is still there on the 1901 census but Margaret is not. He is a boarder aged 2 living with Mary Hughes

The Brothers I have been looking for are :
Frederick Thomas 22nd July 1902
Father John Bramwell Thomas Drapers Assistant
Mother Margaret Ann Thomas Formerly Platt
4 Grass? Class?  Street Kendal

John Percy Thomas 16th October 1905
Father John Bramwell Thomas Drapers Assistant
Mother Margaret Ann Thomas Formerly Platt
32 Union Street Kendal

I have found Margaret A Thomas and John B Thomas in Kendal on the 1901 census .I am confident this is them as John B Thomas is listed as a Drapers Assistant. He is listed as 49 years old and she 29 years old giving me a birth year of around 1872. Her town of birth is given as Chorley Lancashire. This is the only census record I have of Margaret.

Heywood kindly researched John Bramall Thomas for me and he was married and a Drapers Assistant. I followed his wife through the census records and whilst she is not living with John she still states herself as married in 1911.

In 1911 John is living with all 3 boys with Mary Hughes back at Silverwell Lane in Bolton under the name Thomas Bramall.

His son Henry Bramall Thomas married in 1926 – he states his father is deceased (may or may not be the case) but I can’t find a death record.

I cannot find a marriage anywhere for Margaret and John (as implied on the birth certificates) so am suspecting they never married.

I know Margaret died in an asylum around 1945-50. I have found a possible death Margaret Ann Thomas who died in 1945 aged 63 ...  she died at 449 Rochdale Road,  Oldham which at first glance seems to be an asylum / hospital / poorhouse. I am thinking of risking ordering this death certificate to see what it says.

I have searched and searched for Margaret in 1911 and just cannot find her. I did an initial search and have found a MAT in Winwick Asylum who is the right age – she is stated as previously a domestic Servant from Bolton. This is the closest match I can find anywhere so maybe it’s her.
It says she has been a lunatic since the age of 25 which would have been around the time my grandad was born.

I have read up on asylums around this time and sadly it appears reasons women were committed were Post Natal Depression, adultery and syphilis (all possible in Margaret’s case. But to be in institutions for the rest of her life ??

Not sure where to go from here, can I get asylum records ?  … any help really appreciated.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 06 September 14 11:59 BST (UK)
Hello again,

See reply 109 re the Margaret Ann Thomas who died in the hospital.  She is not yours. Don't buy the certificate  :)

Heywood
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 06 September 14 12:03 BST (UK)
I gave searched for Margaret over the days with no joy.
She may have stayed with John.
She may have left him and reverted to the Platt name.
She may have gone to live with someone else!

A while ago, you were looking at a John Platt / Doris marriage?

Was Percy's brother definitely a Platt?  I can't see anything definite for the Thomas boys. :(

I also saw the one in Winwick but the occupation is questionable.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 06 September 14 12:18 BST (UK)
Thanks Heywood

Just seen post 109 .. thanks for that :-)

Mum always thought they were Platt but it now appears they were Thomas (as the birth certificates). Think mum just assumed that as she was told they were full brothers that they were Platt as well.

I have spoken to dad about his visit to Bolton with mum to tell Percy s brother he had died. Dad said it was John. Doris's name is mums recollection ... dad has no idea!

So I think John Thomas married Doris but can't find a record.

Mum said the other brother was insane. She said he thew himself in front of a train ... but that again may be totally wrong. I know this happened to an uncle on her side ( we have a lot of insanity in our family) and wonder if she was confused. Cant find anything on him either.

If I could just find Margaret in 1891 I could see if she was a domestic servant but she is a mystery ... can't even see her birth in Chorley. There is a Margaret Ann Platt in Preston but that's not her :-(




I gave searched for Margaret over the days with no joy.
She may have stayed with John.
She may have left him and reverted to the Platt name.
She may have gone to live with someone else!

A while ago, you were looking at a John Platt / Doris marriage?

Was Percy's brother definitely a Platt?  I can't see anything definite for the Thomas boys. :(

I also saw the one in Winwick but the occupation is questionable.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 06 September 14 12:44 BST (UK)
I just remembered. I think she is Dickenson in 1891 with relatives. Her mother was a Dickenson.

Yes, I just checked. I think she us with the Watmough family at 1891 3426/20/34
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 06 September 14 12:52 BST (UK)
Wow .. that is a new one on me :-) I will try and find it now

You are a superstar :-)

I see her now .. but how did she become Platt by 1898 ?

I was just looking at the one from Farrington ( as Chorley and Farrington are very close ). Being a local even I had to check if Farrington is classed as Chorley.

x



I just remembered. I think she is Dickenson in 1891 with relatives. Her mother was a Dickenson.

Yes, I just checked. I think she us with the Watmough family at 1891 3426/20/34
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Saturday 06 September 14 12:57 BST (UK)
1881 4221/50/3

I had been thinking that was her in 1881 with grandparents Dickenson. :-\

Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 06 September 14 13:05 BST (UK)
That makes sense now :-)

So she want a domestic servant ... serves me right for trying to make the people fit the facts !

But might help me trace he back :-) x

1881 4221/50/3

I had been thinking that was her in 1881 with grandparents Dickenson. :-\
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Sunday 07 September 14 06:17 BST (UK)
Well stone the crows, I found this in another tree Margaret Ann Platt Marriage to Henry cooke
1914
12 Nov
Age: 44
St Patricks RC Church bolton lancashire
his 2nd marriage his address 158 Blackhorse st her address 44 Silverwell Lane witnesses Thomas Levin and Eliza Maria Catteral

Father shows as William Platt - mother Alice

So she reappeared at Silverwell Lane with a new man in tow ... she is a one :-) What on earth happened to John?

But at least I now know I am looking for a Margaret Cooke death around 1945-50 (unless there are more twists in this story)

I am now thinking her parents are Alice Dickenson and William Platt (just need to find a marriage)

I can find Alice and William possibly with Margarets brother and sister Richard and Elizabeth in 1871.

Margaret was born in 1872/3 and Alice died in 1873 ( will be getting this death cert but am hoping to find Williams also and the marriage certificate).

All 3 children appear with the Dickenson grandparents in 1881 so not sure where William is.

Phew !!
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Sunday 07 September 14 08:39 BST (UK)
That's a great find!  Well done  ;)

I had got that far with a William and Alice but can't see a marriage and then I left it for the day. :)

The best/ only death I can see is Margaret Cooke  died 1937 aged 64 years, in Bolton. How does that fit with memories though?
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Sunday 07 September 14 09:02 BST (UK)
I am quite proud of myself :-)

Thanks for you work too .... The William and Alice does tie in with the names on her marriage and the fact Alice died in 1873 would explain them being with their grandparents.

1937 will be too early ... mum would only have been 7 and she thought she was 18 or thereabouts.

Defiantly getting Alice's death certificate but was hoping to find some other stuff to order at the same time as it takes about 3 weeks to get to me in Australia !

Looking for maybe Margaret's, Johns or Williams as well :-(


xx

That's a great find!  Well done  ;)

I had got that far with a William and Alice but can't see a marriage and then I left it for the day. :)

The best/ only death I can see is Margaret Cooke  died 1937 aged 64 years, in Bolton. How does that fit with memories though?
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Sunday 07 September 14 09:44 BST (UK)
That death is probably not right as you say. :(

There is a burial here for Margaret Ellen Cooke in 1937 https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch which seems to fit with the death record although the record does not have Ellen.

I can't see another death in Bolton area nor can I find William Platt anywhere except in 1871 and no marriage either for William and Alice  :P ::)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Sunday 07 September 14 11:21 BST (UK)
Roadblocks all the way.

Nope I am certain that's not her as I know mum was in Singapore till 1939 as Percy was stationed there. He came back in 1940.

I will order Alice's death certificate and see if that tells anything. Maybe they died together ... God Forbid.

I go through so many stages with Margaret .. I started off being angry with her, then felt sorry for her ... now I just shake my head.

Percy is a big soft spot for me ... funny how these people get to you :-) x






That death is probably not right as you say. :(

There is a burial here for Margaret Ellen Cooke in 1937 https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch which seems to fit with the death record although the record does not have Ellen.

I can't see another death in Bolton area nor can I find William Platt anywhere except in 1871 and no marriage either for William and Alice  :P ::)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: avm228 on Sunday 07 September 14 12:21 BST (UK)
Henry Cooke was born c1858-61 Warwickshire according to the censuses and may have died in Bolton Mar qtr 1929 aged 68.

If that's him then there would be plenty of time for Margaret to have remarried subsequently.

Henry Cooke married Mary J Ainscow in Bolton 1888.
1891: RG12/3124/77/12
1901: RG13/3629/58/43 ("Crook", in Blackhorse St)
1911: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWB9-TPY
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Sunday 07 September 14 13:11 BST (UK)
Thank you so much ... as I feared a new Margaret trail ... she liked getting married :-)

Henry Cooke was born c1858-61 Warwickshire according to the censuses and may have died in Bolton Mar qtr 1929 aged 68.

If that's him then there would be plenty of time for Margaret to have remarried subsequently.

Henry Cooke married Mary J Ainscow in Bolton 1888.
1891: RG12/3124/77/12
1901: RG13/3629/58/43 ("Crook", in Blackhorse St)
1911: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWB9-TPY
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Sunday 07 September 14 14:46 BST (UK)
Henry Cooke was born c1858-61 Warwickshire according to the censuses and may have died in Bolton Mar qtr 1929 aged 68.

If that's him then there would be plenty of time for Margaret to have remarried subsequently.

Henry Cooke married Mary J Ainscow in Bolton 1888.
1891: RG12/3124/77/12
1901: RG13/3629/58/43 ("Crook", in Blackhorse St)
1911: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWB9-TPY

Yes that's him and there is a burial in Heaton Cemetery Bolton for a Harry Cooke 29th January 1929  :-\. It is on the site I quoted earlier.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Monday 08 September 14 09:19 BST (UK)
Thank you both  ... that is indeed him.

I have joined that site and checked the record ... address matches.

 :)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Monday 08 September 14 09:32 BST (UK)
Good morning  ;)
Henry's death certificate may give you a home address and the informant's name.

Indeed, the burial record may give you an address- hoping that he didn't die in hospital!

If Margaret was the informant, then we would know they were still together at that time at least.

There are a couple of Mary Jane Cooke deaths in 1910 who are also buried in Heaton cemetery so perhaps Henry was buried with his first wife.

Heywood
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Monday 08 September 14 09:49 BST (UK)
Good Evening

I did get the Burial Record and he died at 158 Black Horse Street so it is him .. no informant unfortunately.

Cant read the description .. possibly just says ?

Thanks for the pointer to the site ... I like it :-)





Good morning  ;)
Henry's death certificate may give you a home address and the informant's name.

Indeed, the burial record may give you an address- hoping that he didn't die in hospital!

If Margaret was the informant, then we would know they were still together at that time at least.

There are a couple of Mary Jane Cooke deaths in 1910 who are also buried in a Heaton cemetery so perhaps Henry was buried with his first wife.

Heywood
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Friday 12 September 14 10:29 BST (UK)
 ;D

Thank you Heywood for sending me to deceased online ... I have found Margaret !!

Margaret Ann Cooke .. widow of Harry died 1st October 1952 at Ashton Under Lyne General Hospital .. aged 82

Buried at Heaton Cemetery Bolton

She is buried with Harry

AND Fredrick Thomas Platt buried 15th July 1935 and John Platt buried 15th February 1962

So there they all are .. I am lost for word really.

Mum was right about everything ... his brothers were Platt in the end

She was also correct about Frederick being insane  .. he died in Rainhill Mental Institution Liverpool. Address at death 158 Blackhorse Street Bolton

John Platt was a crane driver from 863 Wigan Road Bolton

I have ordered Alices death certificate but hopefully now have 3 more to order and lots of new info to digest

Cannot believe how much more I know than when I first posted a few weeks ago

Thank you all from the bottom of my heart ... this means a lot xx


Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Friday 12 September 14 10:33 BST (UK)
;D

Thank you Heywood for sending me to deceased online ... I have found Margaret !!

Margaret Ann Cooke .. widow of Harry died 1st October 1952 at Ashton Under Lyne General Hospital .. aged 82

Buried at Heaton Cemetery Bolton

She is buried with Harry

AND Fredrick Thomas Platt buried 15th July 1935 and John Platt buried 15th February 1962

So there they all are .. I am lost for word really.

Looks like mums story about Fredricks suicide may be correct.

I have ordered Alices death certificate but hopefully now have 3 more to order.

Cannot believe how much more I know than when I first posted a few weeks ago

Thank you all xx

Hello  :) :)

I am delighted for you. What a find and even better that you did it yourself and with the other names, you know that you are right!
It's amazing news and I feel lost for words and quite emotional for you. It's super!

Heywood
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Friday 12 September 14 10:54 BST (UK)
You saw it before I added all the extra bits ... I was so excited I didn't read properly ... you have been a superstar.

Mums birthday next Friday so a real present from above :-) xx
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Friday 12 September 14 11:01 BST (UK)
Oh I've just seen the added bit.

Sad about poor Frederick. I wondered why his death was registered in Prescot.
Now I wonder why Margaret died in Ashton  ???
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Friday 12 September 14 11:04 BST (UK)
I am going to research both Ashton Under Lyne Hospital and Rainhill Mental Instituion ... hopefully I can get some records.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Friday 12 September 14 11:14 BST (UK)
I am going to research both Ashton Under Lyne Hospital and Rainhill Mental Instituion ... hopefully I can get some records.

Sorry, I didn't notice she died in hospital- the death certificate may not give any other info. It's just why Ashton?
(I live in the wider area so am just wondering!)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Friday 12 September 14 12:00 BST (UK)
Your guess is as good as mine with the Ashton link. I am guessing she was still living in Bolton in 1935 when Frederick died as his home address is given as 158 Blackhorse Street which is Margaret and Harry address.

I am hoping the death certificate may give me a cause of death. Was she insane as well as mum thought?

Struggling a bit to find the death details though as the burial dates of 1/10/52 for Margaret , 15/07/1935 for Frederick and 15/02/62 for John don't seem to tie in with records I can see.

Rainhill Mental Institution makes pretty grim reading. Margaret must have had some money to have him privately buried .. it appears there were mass graves at that time.

I have emailed the National Archives asking how I can get Fredericks records .. some people say its easy .. others not.



I am going to research both Ashton Under Lyne Hospital and Rainhill Mental Instituion ... hopefully I can get some records.

Sorry, I didn't notice she died in hospital- the death certificate may not give any other info. It's just why Ashton?
(I live in the wider area so am just wondering!)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Friday 12 September 14 12:12 BST (UK)
Frederick T Platt  32 yrs born abt 1903
September (quarter) 1935
Prescot   volume 8b. Page 601


Margaret A Cooke 81 yrs born abt 1871

September 1952
Ashton. 10b. 117


John Platt. 56 yrs abt 1906

March 1962
Bolton 10 b. Pg 819
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Friday 12 September 14 12:18 BST (UK)
Oh so the dates are the Quarter not the month of the death?

Doh  ::)

Frederick T Platt  32 yrs born abt 1903
September (quarter) 1935
Prescot   volume 8b. Page 601


Margaret A Cooke 81 yrs born abt 1871

September 1952
Ashton. 10b. 117


John Platt. 56 yrs abt 1906

March 1962
Bolton 10 b. Pg 819
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Friday 12 September 14 12:24 BST (UK)
Yes  :)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Friday 12 September 14 12:33 BST (UK)
All ordered .. now the long wait begins again .. thanks again for your help  ;D
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Friday 12 September 14 12:34 BST (UK)
Looking forward to the results  :)

You have achieved such a lot   :D
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: iolaus on Friday 12 September 14 18:30 BST (UK)
I have emailed the National Archives asking how I can get Fredericks records .. some people say its easy .. others not.

I think a lot depends on when they died, mine died over 100 years ago so it was easy, it's when they died less than 100 years ago that they can be funny about them (part of the reason is said to be because other people named in them - the staff etc - may still be alive)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 13 September 14 13:07 BST (UK)
Just got an email from a lovely man at the Liverpool Records Office ..... Excited  ;D

 
I have found Frederick T Platt in the indexes to Rainhill Asylum.  He was patient 30053, admitted 2/9/1931) and has an “A” by his name implying he was in the Annexe for dementia patients.
He was chargeable to CB of Bolton and died there on 9/7/1935.(not sure what this means???)
 
Unfortunately the two main sources of information are both missing from the archive : admission papers and the case book file. What we have is not complete.
However, we do have an admission register (614 RAI 5/35), a medical register (614 15/1) and a death statement book (614 RAI 20/21) which cover the right period and which would give some information though by no means as comprehensive as the two items above.

Its a start !!

Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: iolaus on Saturday 13 September 14 13:17 BST (UK)
council borough of Bolton maybe - ie that they were paying for his care

With my ancestor the records weren't complete and I think I have what they say you have on your ancestor - it still had loads of info in it (including a photograph) and may give you an insight into another family member, mine was committed by his elder son who lived a few doors away.  Had name of family doctor and so on on the admission sheet
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 13 September 14 13:23 BST (UK)
Gosh that sounds great .. a photo would be amazing.

I only have a 1 photo of Percy at mums wedding so any other face would be pretty big ... even his brother ( who may not look his best)

Just got to arrange a UK cheque on Monday and I will get them ordered.

Thanks so much for advising re content .. would have loved full records but anything at all is good x

council borough of Bolton maybe - ie that they were paying for his care

With my ancestor the records weren't complete and I think I have what they say you have on your ancestor - it still had loads of info in it (including a photograph) and may give you an insight into another family member, mine was committed by his elder son who lived a few doors away.  Had name of family doctor and so on on the admission sheet
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Wednesday 01 October 14 09:21 BST (UK)
Finally documents have started to arrive.

Alice appears to be Margaret's Mother which is great.

Still unsure of Margarets Birthdate but Alice Platt died 17th April 1873 so Margaret would have been a baby. Alice was 30 years old.

Address appears to be Red Bank Something ?

Alice Platt was the wife of William Platt (Coal Miner) - still no sign of a marriage  :(

Cause of Death was Endocandilitis ? Certified

Informant was James Dickinson - Present at Death - then something else I cant read !

Also have Fredricks Asylum records which I will post below  ;D

Hoping Margaret, Fredericks and Johns Death Certificates arrive tomorrow x



Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Wednesday 01 October 14 09:56 BST (UK)
Fredericks Records From Rainhill Asylum. I am becoming quite fond of poor Fred  ;)

Not as much info as I had hoped but the Researcher is looking at the medical codes to see what else there is to see.

Not sure if anyone here is good with these types of records and can explain anything that I don't really understand ... although I shall be chatting to Mr Google later  ;D

Frederick Thomas Platt was admitted Sept 2nd 1931 Age 29
Urgency Order 4th August (1932) and 3rd August 1933.
Reception Order August 27 1931
He is listed as State Aided but as Private under Statutory Transfer
The only observations are that he died on 9th July 1935

Under Medical Register he is listed as a Farm Labourer. Rate Assisted. Certified
Occupation Group Sub Group and Sub Division is G a 1

He is listed as aged 29 on admission and aged 29 on Current and first Attack. This is his First attack and has lasted a few days
Under Atiological Factors Principal K3 - No associated Factors
Instances of Epilepsy 1
Form of Mental Illness II1

Death Notice gives Cause of Death as Epilepsy

Researcher has advised that he was admitted to the Annexe which was for patients with Dementia.

Hopefully he will come back with a bit more  ???

Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 01 October 14 10:15 BST (UK)
Hello again,
Glad that all is working out  :)

Margaret was a Dickinson in a census - I think Alice was the Dickinson wasn't she?

Poor Fred- he seems to have had a rough deal.

Heywood  :)
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Wednesday 01 October 14 10:30 BST (UK)
Yes Alice I believe was Alice Dickenson daughter of John and Margaret. She had a brother James
(who would probably be the one named as informant). James lived next door to his Parents and Margaret in 1881 and had a young daughter called Alice !

Margaret was Platt when she was with her grandparents in 1881 but was Dickinson by 1891 and then back to Platt.

You have now got me thinking ... maybe she was born Dickenson not Platt ... William Platt is another elusive chappy.

Feeling for Fred right now. Margaret had a tough old time from birth by the look of things  :(

Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Wednesday 01 October 14 11:10 BST (UK)
Well there you go. From the Researcher  ???

Under aetiological factors K3 refers to epilepsy and under forms of mental Illness II 1 refers to insanity with epilepsy.

The occupation code Ga1 I don’t have any chart for.
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Thursday 02 October 14 10:30 BST (UK)
Got Fred and Margarets death certificates today.

Margarets is a bit odd. She died in Ashton Under Lyne General Hospital as we know. Her home address was 863 Wigan Road Bolton so its still a mystery why she was there. I am guessing that where mum visited her around 1950 so she would have been there some time.

In formant is B Platt Daughter in Law which puts Doris as Johns wife's name to bed. Dad thinks she was Betty but I cant find any marriage for John Platt to a Betty or Elizabeth in Bolton. I have found a wedding picture with Percy as the best man but it is undated and I am unsure who it is getting married.

B Platts address is the same as Margaret so I am assuming Margaret lived with John.

I cannot read the first 2 entries on cause of death - think the third and fourth are Senility and Cerebal Softening.

Also there is an extra column next to Registrars details that is not on any other certificate I have .. wondering what it is.

I will try and attach pictures if anyone can decipher anything I would really appreciate it  ;D

Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: ..claire.. on Saturday 04 October 14 01:01 BST (UK)
Hi

First cause of death

MYOCARDITIS ~ inflammation of the heart muscle, usually caused by a virus.

2: ARTERIOSCLEROSIS ~ hardening and thickening of the arteries.

claire
Title: Re: Percy Platt - Illegitimate/Adopted Bolton 1898
Post by: Waterloo24 on Saturday 04 October 14 05:00 BST (UK)
Thanks Claire  :)

Hi

First cause of death

MYOCARDITIS ~ inflammation of the heart muscle, usually caused by a virus.

2: ARTERIOSCLEROSIS ~ hardening and thickening of the arteries.

claire