RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Welsh terrier on Thursday 17 July 14 16:41 BST (UK)
-
Hello all !
I have recently dug up these items in a field on my farm and am hoping that someone is able to recognise them?
Poss. silver, convex, Crown at the top, lion beneath standing up on his right leg, left leg up. Holding some thing like a shield in both paws.
The "coin" ? Large and heavy with K or R in the middle on one side with indentations at north/east/south/west. Other side with indentations of spiral design.
-
What is the inscription/device below the lion on the curve of the ?button and is the lettering on the back readable?
-
Hi maxD,
I am afraid the photo is as close as I can get.
The lettering on the back is impossible to read other than on the second picture.
I will try to take more pics and see if I can make it any clearer.
W/T
-
Hi, I think the button could possibly be a Livery Button.
Frank.
-
Thank you Frank....will need more research.
maxD I have managed to get a closer look at writing on back and can read some :-
13 Con?uit St. London..Mins???// and the rest is impossible to read.
W/T
-
Just to add further intrigue I also have this button which is very corroded but you can just see Two lions either side of shield in middle ......very little else can be read.
W/T
-
That one looks very like your bog standard lion and unicorn, the UK symbols. Used, among others, as the badge of the General Service Corps (many images on Google).
Useful and relevant info on button makers at 13 Conduit Street
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/pages/button-makers.html
MaxD
-
Many thanks.....MaxD.
W/T
-
Hi, I agree with maxD, the other one looks to be a General Service button.
Regarding the first one, is there any history of a large house or Manor nearby, or a property owned by wealthy people who could have had servants and grooms etc?
Frank.
-
Good evening,
This is the shop/factory now, it is just off Regent st; http://www.allinlondon.co.uk/directory/1195/40846.php
John915
-
Yes there is Frank.
A quick reckoning would suggest one of three very large land owners. Our farm now straddles all three places so would need to do a little research to see if the button is relevant to any Scottish Lairds ?
Thou it would not surprise me if it was a English owner as many would travel the distance to spend the summers here on their sporting estates.
Thank you for your response it gives me food for thought and maybe I'll find more things.
W/T
-
John915,
Thank-you
-
I don't think there is an inscription below the lion just a line of twisted cord that some heraldic coats of arms and in particular scottish clan crests have, the cord is usually bi coloured in a painted version, google Scottish Clan crests and select images.
James
-
I wonder if the disc like object is a primitive pocket sundial, I have seen on a church wall similar indentations and the seeker of the time just inserts a twig into the centre hole,
is it a converted coin or a disc of lead?
James
-
James,
Thank-you for your input. I have just returned from our local laboratory (using their facilities) and yes the lion is standing on a twisted cord.
More intriguing is your suggestion of the coin/disc I have. It is 3.5cm in dia. and a heavy thing so possible it is lead, under the microscope the letter "K" or "R" is actually a very primitive drawing of a deer/stag ? There are twelve holes graduating from the middle ?I need to keep dipping in warm water and brushing with soft toothbrush and see if I can make it any clearer.
W/T
-
The crown above the lion is a Baronial coronet so a titled family, The lead disc (if it is lead) may be a flattened musket ball that has been fashioned into whatever it purports to be, potentially a pocket sundial.
James
-
James can I please pick your brains even further ?
To recap :-
A lion standing on his right leg, facing to the left, on top of twisted braid/cord, holding a shield in his paws with a crown on his head.
Any idea what the shield may depict ?
W/T
-
I searched for the same thing on google and the only thing that was similar was the family crest of Sir George Burns but without the coronet, who was a partner of Sir Samuel Cunard, Burns family crest depicted lion rampant, as is yours, holding the world globe, obviously symbolic of maritime industry, I suspect your shield will have something similar if the family name could be found.
There is a website which I have lost now but if you put into google Livery button collections, then you may get some additional help there.
There is also a section on here under Special Interests for Heraldry where someone may be able to identify the symbolism of you crest on the button.
My home town has the Blue Lion Rampant of the De Brus family, forebears of the Scottish Bruce, also depicting the maritime industry by three sailing ships.
It is only a pity that some of the detail of the has been lost from the button.
The crown is above the head not on it.
Some really interesting finds.
James
-
James is absolutely right in that the shield held by the lion on button holds the clue to the whole thing!
Further to my earlier thought about button one, the General Service button was worn by most regiments in WW1 (many regiments asserted their individuality as they do today thank goodness) (and at other times). You could waste endless hours looking at correspondence about GS buttons!
-
Would you be able to tell us the general area/district/county of the farm it was found?
I quite understand if you are reluctant to.
James
-
Good evening,
Having studied the button closely I think the shield has on it a repeat of the main design. And so on and so on ad infiniteum.
The regimental devices on buttons were replaced by the royal arms for ALL regts in 1871. Collar badges were introduced in 1874 to make up for this loss. The only differences were in colour and the material they were made of. So for instance the rifles and light infantry had black buttons. Regtl buttons only made a come back after WW2 for most, the exception being the guards.
John915
-
James,
Thank you for advice to further research on web.
The farm lies North East of Caithness.
MaxD.....To conclude the General Service Button is WW1?
John915... I will have to take another look under the microscope and look at the shield again, but thank you for pointing it out.
W/T
-
WT
Re the GS button - from what I have read of articles written by folk far more expert than I, I believe it is most likely from the WW1 period. Among other sources, http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/ is a mine of information.
Rgds
MaxD
-
Thank you MaxD think I know how I'll be spending my Saturday afternoon !!
W/T
-
Not sure if this applicable, the shield the lion is holding is possibly an heraldic way of distinguishing other branches of the family (cadet branches) from the senior line.
The smaller shield altough we are not certain what the details are appears to have a checkered band across the top, this is a Fess in heraldry. The most famous fess and one of the most widely spread is that of the Stewarts.
I admit this is only conjecture until the detail is clearer.
None of the clans or Industrial families or noble families of the Caithness and Sutherland areas have this as family crest,
Maybe a servant from a visiting family from the south perhaps for an estate shoot lost it.
James
-
James is correct that the coronet denotes a Baron, but I admit to being puzzled. The majority of shields have two supporters, one on each side, with the coronet directly above the shield. On the button this shield is held up by a single lion with an oversized coronet above the lion's head.
Either - this means that a search can be limited to shields with a single supporter or - this coat of arms is not official.
Philip
-
Good evening,
It means we are looking at a crest not a coat of arms. To have a lion passant holding something between the front paws is not used in coats of arms.
There is also a reason for the coronet being spaced away from the lions head and not on it but can't find the answer yet.
It is confusing because a crest can appear to be part of a coat of arms because it sits on top of the helm. This is positioned above the coat of arms but is not a part of the arms which consists of a shield (which may have lions on the field/s) and its supporters on either side if any.
The best example of this would be in St Georges Hall, Windsor Castle. The coats of arms are low on the wall and the helms (with crests) are positioned higher up with the sword below it.
John915
Added; The fess also only appears on a coat of arms and not on a crest.
-
Oh my I thought this would be fairly easy to find.
I think I am slowly coming to the realisation that this is possibly Victorian Romanticism !
Will be sorely disappointed if that is the case.
Thank you again for your post replies
W/T
-
Good evening again,
I think this best explains the positioning of arms, helms and crests. Also what the different parts meant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crest_(heraldry)
John915
-
The button with the lion holding a shield is almost certainly a livery button, containing the crest (in this case, on a wreath (or torse) a lion rampant holding in its forepaws a shield, probably of the coat of arms of the owner, with a coronet of rank over the lion's head (baron, as has been noted).
Going through Fairbairn's Crests, the closest I have found is:
Foley, Baron (Foley), of Kidderminster, Worcs., a lion rampant arg[ent], holding between the forepaws an escutcheon charged with the arms, viz.: arg[ent], a fesse engrailed between three cinquefoils, all within a bordure sa[ble].
In other words, a white shield with a horizontal black stripe across the middle, its edges scooped out, between three black stylized five-petaled flowers, with a black edging going around the entire shield.
Looking at the photograph of the button, I cannot be certain that the shield the lion holds is the same as that described by Fairbairn, but it might be.
The other crests found in Fairbairn's which are similar, Clark and Beynon, seem to be less likely. The lion in Clark's crest is holding a shield gyronny of eight, which the shield on the button clearly is not. The lion in Beynon's crest is holding a shield charged with a greyhound's head.
I hope that this is at least a little helpful.
David
-
David,
Thank you, your reply is more than a little helpful I had not realised what I was letting myself in for !
Understanding all the variations is a mine field.
Dare I ask if any of you would like to hazard at a guess as to the age of the button ? The estate still holds a lot of records to shooting parties and if I could narrow it down I may be able to find a family the crest relates too.
W/T
-
I found this site www.buttoncrs.com/intellectual/patentsuk.html
it would appear that your type of button f21-f23 was patented by R.Elsdon Jan 29th 1884 patent no.2346 with other patents through to 1895
If the link is broken just google british patent 2346 R Elsdon 1884.
James