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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: jimrob3 on Wednesday 16 July 14 18:35 BST (UK)
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Hello all!
I'm new here, and am hoping to find some people. I understand somewhere on this board there was mention of Alexander Robertson and Jane Spence. Can someone confirm if there are children showing as born to them in Grange or Aberlour, Banff from 1802 up to 1829? And if anyone can help me find Alexander Robertson's parents, that would be great too. Thanks.
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Hi
Try using this site, it covers most of the UK.
http://www.archersoftware.co.uk/igi/
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Family Search shows the following:
Mary, bp. Grange18-12-1802
Frances, bp. Grange 18-12-1813
Fife Duff, b. Aberlour 7-9-1821, bp. 10-11-1821
Twins, Helen Tod and Thomas Geddes bp. Aberlour 23-8-1823
Arthur, bp. Aberdlour 26-10-1825
George, bp. Aberlour 17-4-1829
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The free website Libindx which gives details of Moray folk, gives the following:
Alexander Robertson, farmer, died Drumfurrich, Aberlour 31-12-1847, aged 74
Jane Spence, died Drumfurrich, Aberlour 3-11-1857, aged 76.
The above comes from their gravestone. His death was mentioned in the Elgin Courier on 14-1-1848, hers on 20-11-1857.
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The 1841 census for Drumfurrich shows:
Alexander Robertson, 65, farmer
Jane Spence or Robertson, 55
William R, 25
Jane R, 22,
John R, 20
Grace R, 18
Fife Duff R, 15
Arthur R, 9
Charles McConnachie, 28, mason
James Rott (probably a mistranscription), 25, journeyman mason
Paul Grant, 10, male servant
All born Banffshire
N.B. Ages are often rounded in 1841.
The 1851 census shows:
John Robertson, 34, unmarried, farmer of 50 acres employing 2 men 1 boy, b. Grange
Jane R, 69, widow, b. Rothiemay
Jane R, 35, unmarried, b. Grange
Helen R, 25, unmarried, b. Aberlour
Arthur R, 23, unmarried, b. Aberlour
George R, 21, b. Aberlour
James Innes, servant
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The notice on 20-11-1857 in the Elgin Courier for Jane Spence's death reads:
At Drumfurrich, Aberlour, on the 2d inst., Jane Spence,
relict of the late Mr Alexander Robertson, farmer, there,
aged 76.
The date is 2nd, while the gravestone says 3rd. The death certificate will decide it.
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On 16-3-1846, Alexander Robertson chaired a dinner in the Fife Arms Hotel, Craigellachie, held by the tenants of the Fife Estates in the Daugh of Drumfurrich to celebrate the marriage of James Duff M.P. to Lady Agnes Hay.
In November 1849 Arthur Robertson, Drumfurrich, was fined 7/6d with 3/6d costs for contravening the Turnpike Act.
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Wow! Thanks for all the help! I went to the site you suggested gene chaser, and it's very helpful. And GR2, you found a lot in such a short period of time. Thank you!
I did discover that my great great grandfather is very likely Thomas Geddes Robertson, who was named in your first post GR2. The other family seems to be a different one as there is no mention of Thomas and his twin sister Helen. Although I did enjoy the history you found about them...kinda wished that was my family as they seem more colourful.
At any rate, I'm hung up at locating the first Alexander's parents. I know it's a long shot, but did you happen to see anything else with respect to that family?
Thanks again for all your help!
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I think you first need to clarify whether your ancestor is the Thomas Geddes Robertson. The posts that I made are all for the same family. The fact that Thomas and Helen aren't at home in the 1841 and 1851 censuses either mean they have died young (in which case Thomas Geddes would not be your ancestor) or are working and living away from home. Helen might even be married by 1851.
Why do you think this Thomas is your ancestor? Do you have a marriage or death certificate for your Thomas which gives his parents names? Do you have him in a census which gives his birthplace?
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All very good questions. I guess I can't be certain as I don't have census data. I do have marriage records which show some names and places that are consistent. I know the first two are accurate, but I'm guessing Thomas is the right one. Looks like I have some work to do yet...
I've attached some documents if you'd care to take a look at them. Thanks again...Jim
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This chain of certificates is perfectly correct. I'll see if I can have another look for Thomas on the censuses.
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The 1861 census shows Thomas at Tomneen, Knockando:
Thomas Robertson, 35, farmer of 40 acres employing 1 boy, born Aberlour
Julia Robertson, 28, born Knockando
Elizabeth Robertson, 3, born Knockando
Alexander Robertson, 2, born Knockando
Jane Robertson, "0", born Knockando
May Emerson, 14, domestic servant, born Knockando
James Calder, 15, cattle boy, born Rothes
The 1871 census for Tomneen:
Thomas Robertson, 45, farmer of 42 acres, employing 1 boy, born Aberlour
Julia Robertson, 38, born Knockando
Elizabeth Robertson, 13, born Knockando,
Alexander Robertson, 12, at school, born Knockando
Jeanie Robertson, 10, at school, born Knockando
Julia M Robertson, 8, at school, born Knockando
James Robertson, 6, at school, born Knockando
Thomas Robertson, 3, born Knockando
Margaret H Robertson, "0", born Knockando
Lachlan McDonald, 15, farm servant, born Aberlour
I think the children's names probably reflect their grandparents and parents - Alexander, Jane, Thomas, Julia, and perhaps Julia's parents were a James and an Elizabeth.
Thomas' age does not match the birth date of Thomas Geddes Robertson exactly, but it does seem to be him in every other respect. People were often a bit vague about their ages.
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That's great to know! However, the only possible glitch in the chain is another record I found with similar names. In this one (step two of the chain), the name is Anne Mathieson instead of Annie, and the date of the marriage and age of James makes him much older...approx. 54 when he had his son James M. Of course, that's not necessarily odd back then, but less than likely I'm thinking. The marriage also took place in Aberdeen, which makes it harder to determine which is the most likely one. Any comments you might have would be helpful...especially if I'm on the wrong track. Thanks again, and sorry if I'm taking up too much of your time!
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If James M Robertson was 28 in 1922 when he got married, you should be able to get his birth certificate. This will tell you the date and place of his parents' marriage, whch will eliminate one of those marriages of James Robertsons to Ann(i)e Mathiesons.
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Excellent!
I found two registrations for the same birth, one at Chapel of Garioch in Aberdeen and the other at Cathcart/Lanark. It would appear they registered his birth on Oct 13 at Garioch, then 3 days later at Cathcart. It looks like they moved within days of the initial registration. The first registration was even included on the second one. Was it common to register more than once?
The good news is, it's the same Annie and James that produced Thomas. So now, I can plow my way through all those names you've provided me. Do you think I'll be able to trace Alexander and Jane's ancestors further? The certificates appear to have dried up...ie, I can't confirm their marriage or birth.
Thanks again!!
Thanks, once again.
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Good to see you got the birth certificate. The other James Robertson and Ann Mathieson had two sons, Alexander and William, so it wasn't them.
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I know anything is possible but on the first marriage certificate it lists his father's occupation as 'confectioner'. That means he either went from being a farmer or mason's labourer to making sweeties - sounds a bit odd to me.
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Yes, a very good point Jenny. I wondered about that myself. I do know that both my grandfather and his father 'sold' sweets...didn't 'make' them. It's possible he got a job as a salesman which moved him from the country to work nearer to the larger city of Glasgow. I'm not exactly sure how jobs were come by back then, or what made people move away from their birthplace, but I'm assuming it happened like it does now, so that could be a possibility. Wish I had some living relatives to ask.
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I found two registrations for the same birth, one at Chapel of Garioch in Aberdeen and the other at Cathcart/Lanark. It would appear they registered his birth on Oct 13 at Garioch, then 3 days later at Cathcart. It looks like they moved within days of the initial registration. The first registration was even included on the second one. Was it common to register more than once?
If a birth occurred outside the district where the parents' usual residence was, the birth had to be registered where it took place, and the Registrar there then had to forward the details to the Registrar in the district of the parents' usual residence, where it would then be re-registered. This was quite normal, and in fact required by law.
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I know anything is possible but on the first marriage certificate it lists his father's occupation as 'confectioner'. That means he either went from being a farmer or mason's labourer to making sweeties - sounds a bit odd to me.
Yes, a very good point Jenny. I wondered about that myself. I do know that both my grandfather and his father 'sold' sweets...didn't 'make' them. It's possible he got a job as a salesman which moved him from the country to work nearer to the larger city of Glasgow. I'm not exactly sure how jobs were come by back then, or what made people move away from their birthplace, but I'm assuming it happened like it does now, so that could be a possibility. Wish I had some living relatives to ask.
Does anyone else have a thought about this? I'd be curious if someone knows a little about people moving away for work, leaving farms, etc. My understanding was that people pretty much stayed near their home, but there would be migration all over the place as well for various reasons. Once again, I'd hate to be barking up the wrong tree...so to speak.
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There was quite a drift of folk from the countryside to the towns at that time. It was common, for example, for a farm worker to get a job as a carter or vanman in a town as he was still working with horses. It was not unusual for people to have a series of seemingly unrelated jobs. You have certainly got the correct family here.
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Ah ha! I have smoked out Thomas Robertson in the earlier censuses.
1841 at Allachrow, Knockando, Moray:
Robert Robertson, "30", farmer
Frances Robertson, "25"
Thomas Robertson, "15"
Helen Robertson, "15"
1851 at Allachrow, Knockando, Moray:
Robert Robertson, 40, farmer of 50 acres, born Grange
Thomas Robertson, 23, farmer's brother employing 1 man, born Aberlour
Grace Robertson, 26, farmer's sister, born Aberlour,
James Edwards, 11, farm labourer, born Boharm
These entries show up Robert for the first time. In 1861 he is married to a Helen - still at Allachrow. They also show the twin, Helen, in 1841, and the sisters, Frances and Grace.
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Libindx says Robert Robertson died at Allachrow, Elchies, 22-4-1885, aged 77. His wife, Helen, died High Street, Archiestown, Knockando, 11-8-1909, aged 92.
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That's amazing!
I'm a little confused by all the names...but like you said, they could have been going by grandparents names, and varying ages. The first list of siblings you posted included Fife Duff, Francais, Mary and George. They, however don't appear in the last lot. Same family? Different?
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The 1841 and 1851 censuses in my last post shows your Thomas. He had an older brother, Robert, born in Grange, whose baptism wasn't recorded. Robert took out the lease of the farm at Allachrow and Thomas, Frances and Helen went to live with him. Thomas would have worked on the farm and, as Robert was not married, Frances and Helen would have kept house and done the "women's work".
In 1851, Thomas was still working for Robert along with a hired boy. Helen is not there (perhaps she has married), but their sister Grace is now keeping house.
Thomas was still working for Robert at Allachrow in January 1852, because he came 4th in a ploughing match at Easter Elchies on the 7th of that month (Elgin Courant).
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Hey GR2!
Thanks to all your help. Look what I found, using the leads you provided. It seems to confirm everything you've uncovered.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=REG&db=malgarden&id=I029787
It would appear that any record of Alexander's parents are difficult to find. I discovered along the way that there had been a fire in the parish which destroyed years of records. That would explain the lack of info. Any suggestions?
I really do appreciate all your help, and obvious interest in tracking down that information for me.
Jim
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It's difficult to go back further in the Robertson line. As you now have the names of Jane Spence's parents, that might give a clue. If they followed the "traditional" naming system, the first daughter would be called after the mother's mother (Mary) and the second son after the mother's father (Robert). That is the case here. If they stuck to this, the first son would be called after the father's father and the second daughter after the father's mother. That would suggest Alexander's parents were James and Frances. However, there is no guarantee at all.
The 1841 census says Alexander was born in Banffshire. If there were any Robertson witnesses at the baptisms of the children, especially the earlier ones, that might provide further clues.