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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: familyline on Wednesday 16 July 14 11:40 BST (UK)

Title: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Wednesday 16 July 14 11:40 BST (UK)
Hi,
I am looking for my Gt Uncle georges war history. I have found WW1 medal rolls index cards 1914 to 1920.
There is a number S4/1098554,692422 Reg No. can any body tell me what reg this is, and if you have any info on the regiment. I have got army service corps, labour corps. I know my uncle was gassed in the war and returned home and later died at the age of 35.
regards
lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: DavidJP on Wednesday 16 July 14 12:06 BST (UK)
Hi Lynne,

Are you sure that this is the right George Albert Saunders? I ask as there appear to be 4 Medal Cards for men of this name. As shown here on this link:  http://www.rootschat.com/links/018mj/

The George Albert Saunders that you mention appears to have started out as a private, Regimental number S4/109554 in the Army Service Corps before being attached/transferred to the Labour Corps with regimental no 692422 probably with the same rank of private.

At this time there was not a single regimental number, if you were attached/transferred then you got a new regimental number, hence the two numbers on the card.

He appears to have been awarded the Victory medal, whether he was awarded more I cannot tell as unfortunately I have no subscriptions to online sites & can only see a small portion of the card on the NA website using the preview function.

For further research, you would need to look up info on both the ASC & Labour Corps. May I suggest that using the following website for further research on these regiments as a start: http://www.1914-1918.net/

Hope the above is of some help.

Kind regards

David
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: jim1 on Wednesday 16 July 14 15:45 BST (UK)
It's possibly your man as he received the SWB for sickness under para. 392/xv1a meaning he was Surplus to military requirements having suffered impairment since entry into the service.
Issue no. 454475.
It states he is a Pte. in the Labour Corps service no. 692422 & attested 24.5.1915 & was discharged 30.12.19 under the above paragraph.
He received the BWM & VM.
His service docs. gives an address of 29 Albion Rd. Wood St. Walthamstow & age on enlistment 38.
He married Alice May Meadowcroft in 1901.
His occupation is listed as Baker.
He tried to re-enlist in 1919 but they wouldn't have him back because of his disability.
He served 2 terms in France & in between those 1 term in Italy.
However as David has said there are a number of George A Saunders also listed.
Looking again as you've put this on the Warks. board I'm assuming he came from here.
This man didn't.
So where did he come from ?

jim
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Thursday 17 July 14 06:32 BST (UK)
hi jim and David,
This cant be my gt uncle George, its the only one I could find, uncle George was born abt 1899 in Birmingham, bournbrook and lived at 173 Tiverton road with his parents George and mary saunders, he was still with his parents in 1950. I know from my aunt that uncle George was gassed and when I found a George albert saunders wasn't sure if it was a Birmingham reg, George died aged 35.
thankyou for the info
regards
lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Thursday 17 July 14 07:24 BST (UK)
hi Jim and David,
I have been on the national archives and found a few saunders, but I don't have Ancestry anymore.
there is 3 Albert George saunders, and 1 Albert George sanders which sounds promising as they couldn't make there mind up if there name was saunders or sanders, and 2 George Albert saunders. Could some kind person possibly look these up for me. thankyou
regards
lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: jim1 on Thursday 17 July 14 10:59 BST (UK)
Am I missing something?
If he was born 1899 & died in 1950 wouldn't that make him 56?
You said he died aged 35.
In addition to the name variations there are 15 George A Saunders listed.
The Electoral Registers has the family at 15 Tiverton Rd.
In 1939 it looks like George also has a shop in Oak Tree Lane.
George doesn't appear on the 1918 Absent Voters List although his brother/uncle Jabez does.
178685 Pte. 24th. Res. Batt. R.F.A. Living with George & Mary Saunders 15 Tiverton Rd.
So George never enlisted or by 1918 he was discharged so he should be on the SWB list which should narrow the search.
jim
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Friday 18 July 14 09:19 BST (UK)
Hi Jim,
Sorry I meant his father George was there in the 1950s, my gt uncle George was in the army, Jabez is his uncle. I don't know of a shop in Oak tree lane.The picture I have of George he is in army uniform with what looks like bandages wrap around his legs, and he did die aged 35. What is SWB list. I was thinking last night about my granddad he married georges sister and he served in the1/8th worcs reg wondering if they would have perhaps gone to war together.
Thankyou for your help and time
regards
lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: jim1 on Friday 18 July 14 11:16 BST (UK)
Does the photo you have show his cap badge, bandolier,stripes or anything that may point to a Regt. or Corps?
Can you post it on here?
The "bandages" are called puttees.
The SWB is the Silver War Badge issued to all men who were rendered unfit for further military service due to injury or illness.
First issued in 1916 & was worn on civilian clothing to demonstrate to others that the man had served.
This was to avoid confrontation by people who had men overseas.
It's unlikely they joined together as he wouldn't have gone in until 1917 at the earliest because of his age.
The time frame is a bit tight as he doesn't appear to be in the Army in 1918.

jim
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Friday 18 July 14 13:41 BST (UK)
Hi Jim,
there is only 2 years of age between George and my granddad, and my granddad is in the same uniform. On the picture of George it looks like a peak hat with a X at the front above peak and a what looks like a crown in the centre of the X at the top, and the belt looks like it is done up with a S sideways, there is nothing on the lapels or on the breast pockets. Its the same as my granddads but my granddad hasn't got a hat on. I am not very good on the computer self taught so I don't know how to send you a copy, no stripes on sleeves. thankyou for your help.
regards
lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Friday 18 July 14 13:46 BST (UK)
Hi Jim,
we know boys will be boys perhaps he lied about his age to go and fight for his country like his uncle and brotherinlaw.
regards
lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: jim1 on Friday 18 July 14 15:48 BST (UK)
We're going to need to see his cap badge that's the only way we're going to be able to identify his Regt.
Can you scan it at the highest resolution on your scanner, just his cap will do.
This is the Worcs. Regt. cap badge.
The other one is Machine Gun Corps.
could it be that one?

jim
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Friday 18 July 14 16:09 BST (UK)
Hi Jim,
I don't know how to do it. This photo is brown and on the back of a post card, it was done by Britannias Electric portraits ltd Grantham,mansfield,nottingham and Lincoln, don't know if that helps.My husband thinks it could be crossed rifles, it stands out from the brown cap. Also on the back of the post card it says carte postale, Communication-Correspondance, if that helps.
sorry I cant be more specific.thankyou
regards
lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: jim1 on Friday 18 July 14 16:10 BST (UK)
is it one of the above cap badges?
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Friday 18 July 14 16:46 BST (UK)
Hi Jim,
It looks very much like the second one well done, I have had the eye glass to magnify it and it looks  very much like the second one the machine gun corps. Thankyou so much.
Regards
Lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: jim1 on Friday 18 July 14 16:58 BST (UK)
There's only 1 George (A) Saunders MGC on the SWB list. He was from London.
Looked at all the George's MGC but none have the SWB listed but not all Medal cards did.
The MGC was formed in late 1915, most of the men recruited were from other Regt's. & so are listed under both.
I suspect because of his age he went straight in.
I'll take another look.
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: jim1 on Friday 18 July 14 17:04 BST (UK)
these are all the George's in the MGC:
George Saunders
Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex) Regiment, Machine Gun Corps 42259,73910 
George Saunders
Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex) Regiment, Machine Gun Corps 51043,149479 
George Saunders
Machine Gun Corps, Royal Army Medical Corps, Machine Gun Corps 9809,11079,9809 
George A Saunders
Machine Gun Corps 112th Co 62746  (on SWB list.)
George A Saunders
Machine Gun Corps 145080 
George Saunders
King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment, Machine Gun Corps 34892,176761
Is your Grandad listed as being in the MGC as well as the Worc. Regt.




Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Saturday 19 July 14 05:35 BST (UK)
Hi Jim,
I don't know of the lists your talking about I am a senior and self Taught on the computer, so I don't understand some sites. About my Grandad his army no is 240220, he was in the 1/8th batt Worcs, I have all his war history from Worcs Reg, I also have newspaper clipping and a picture of my Grandad getting the D.C.M. from King George and Queen Mary, my granddad was a corporal in the army and I now have copies of his medals. Looking at the list you sent me the only one I can see would be George Albert Saunders 145080, but according to my father and aunt the family couldn't decide their surname Saunders or Sanders, but on Georges birth cert it says Saunders also on the census. My granddad was born in 1897 and George was born 1899abt so there is only a couple of years between them, I am wondering if George was in the worcs reg as my granddad was and also his uncle Jabez. Don't know if any of this will help you.
Thankyou
Regards
Lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 19 July 14 09:13 BST (UK)
Quote
Looking at the list you sent me the only one I can see would be George Albert Saunders 145080
He's just listed a George A not George Albert.
The list I referred to is the Medal list (MIC) Medal index card.This gives all of the Regiments a soldier served in & his service numbers.
I'm a bit intrigued about the photo you have as both men in it were in the MGC according to what you've told me & you say one of them is your Grandad but you also say he was in the Worc. Regt.
Looking at his MIC it doesn't state he was in the MGC so can't be him in the photo.
Are we talking about William Roberts?
If so I see he has the rare TFWM.
By the way Jabez was in the RFA.

jim
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Saturday 19 July 14 09:42 BST (UK)
Hi Jim,
I am a bit confused, the postcard picture is of George albert saunders. Do you have access to old newspapers my granddad is featured in the evening mail special dated 31 march 1997. My aunt wrote to Worcs Reg and got his war history and mailed it to my father in Perth w.a. I have a copy of a form for my granddad it has got T.F.W.M. Worc R/T.F.M. page 20 he is down as a private and was made a corporal later he was at Landrecies. As for uncle George I don't know if he was called up or enlisted and if he enlisted where he went to do so. I am a bit lost with Uncle George and his war history. Granddad and Uncle George both lived in Birmingham. I hope I have answered your questions. Thankyou
regards
lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 19 July 14 10:55 BST (UK)
So your Grandad can't be in the photo.
His MIC has him as an Acting Sgt.
If he was in the photo he would have stripes & you say that there are none also his cap badge isn't Worc. Regt.
So it looks like Uncle George & A.N. Other of the MGC.
I don't have access any more to old newspapers.
Looking at the service numbers I would say your George would have to one of these:
George Saunders
Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex) Regiment, Machine Gun Corps 51043,149479 
George A Saunders
Machine Gun Corps 145080 
George Saunders
King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment, Machine Gun Corps 34892,176761
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Saturday 19 July 14 13:13 BST (UK)
Hi Jim,
That's right my granddad led the charge after his officer Captain Walford was wounded They set up machine gun fire to drown the noise of tanks coming and also for covering fire.I think the photo of George albert saunders in his uniform was taken for his mom before going to war. Well the only thing I have is a picture of a badge on a cap for George albert saunders. How do you think I can check his army career.
regards
Lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 19 July 14 13:45 BST (UK)
about 70% of WW1 service docs. were destroyed in the blitz.
Only Pension records if he was entitled will give any more details & I can't see one of those either.
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Sunday 20 July 14 06:13 BST (UK)
Hi Jim,
I went on the national archives site and saw George albert saunders no 145080 ref no 372/17/172460, they have the service medal and award rolls index there, but couldn't get into the site to see if it was my George saunders, I might be wrong but I think the records are at Kew. Do you know how I could see the records.
Thankyou
Lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Sunday 20 July 14 09:08 BST (UK)
Hi Jim,
 I have found a George albert saunders private s or a 54/109554 692422 corps A S C lab corps
LC/102b37 page 3722 on the bottom of the page it has 54B lab LC/6032. Could this be my George.
Regards
Lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 20 July 14 11:19 BST (UK)
Your George was in the MGC not the Labour Corps.
The one you have came from Walthamstow.
The medal index won't give you any additional info.
145080 Saunders received the BWM & VM which means he didn't go overseas until 1916 or later.
Out of the 3 possibles I think this is most likely to be him but there's no way of telling from his MIC.
His service no. means he was the 142,080 man to join the MGC ( the first 3000 no's went to the mechanised MGC ) so that would put his recruitment in 1917.Unfortunately so were the other 2 possibles but they were first in other Regt's. so they may have been older also they don't have the middle initial "A".

jim
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Sunday 20 July 14 13:14 BST (UK)
Hi jim,
This is certainly a brick wall, how many George alberts is there. I have found another one George Albert Saunders service no 62746 1917 machine gun corps, how can I find out if this one is right. I feel like I am going round in circles. Thankyou
regards
Lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 20 July 14 13:54 BST (UK)
He's from Dulwich London.
Not all men had their middle names included your George might have been one of them.
The list I gave on the previous page are all the George Albert's, George A's & George Saunders that were in the MGC.
I've got it down to 3 possibles based on their service no's & then 1 based on him having the middle initial "A".
I think you will have to accept that his service docs. were one of those destroyed in the blitz & as there are no pension records all you will have is his possible MIC.
Even with his service docs. it would be difficult to find where he served as the MGC were spread out in small Coy's all along the Western Front.
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Monday 21 July 14 04:33 BST (UK)
Hi Jim,
Thankyou for all your help, its a shame I cant find his war history, do you know what regiment  145080 was in.
Regards
Lynne
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: jim1 on Monday 21 July 14 11:54 BST (UK)
He wasn't in a Regt. he was in the MGC.He would have been attached to a Batt. but without knowing which Coy. he was in it's impossible to say where he was.

jim
Title: Re: George albert Saunders
Post by: familyline on Monday 21 July 14 13:16 BST (UK)
hi jim,
Thankyou, it just shows you I don't know much about the forces by the questions I ask. Thankyou once again for all your help.
Regards
Lynne