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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Staffordshire => Topic started by: ansett on Tuesday 15 July 14 10:26 BST (UK)
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Dear Roots chatters your help required with this one.I will try and keep it simple:
Joseph Turner B 1854 Wolverhampton Died 1894:
married Harriet Martin B 1856 W-ton:
Children:James B 1881 :Alfred:1884 :Anne:1881 Florence May 1892:William Henry 1883:
All Baptiised Saint Andrews Church in the Whitmore Reans area:
Joseph and Harriet
married St Georges Church 30/3/1875
Abode Duke Street W-ton Josephs Occupation Lath Cleaver Father to Joseph shown as John:
they also lived in Gt Hampton Street Wolverhampton
I would like to know the name of Joseph Turners Mother:all I know is that her name was Ann.
I have claimed in my tree that Ann Duffield as Josephs mother however on looking back and checking dates I have my doubts.
Ann Duffield married John Turner (Locksmith) 12/7/1845 at St Georges Church: abode Horsley Fields
Ann's father John Occupation as Caster:
Ann and John lived in Shakespear street in the 1861 Census, they had several children
they had a son Joseph but records show that he was born 1853 and died 1868 age 16 years;
When checking Joseph Turners birth there were two named:
Joseph Turner 1/4/1853 to John and Ann: Ward Street Wolverhampton Occ Hinge Filer
Joseph Turner 1/4/1853 also to John and Ann: Ward Street Occ: Puddler.
I hope that some one with the Turner family in their tree can help me with mine.
It looks like I will have to erase a few families, rather this than claim Ann Duffield.
I have tried all avenues to find Joseph Turner,s mother Ann.
many thanks.
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Does joseph b 1854 not have a birth registration?
Theres 3 or 4 in 1853, 5 in 1854 and another couple in '55. (westmidlandsbmd)
A birth certificate will confirm MMN.
what aboutthe 1875 marriage. I can't see a father's occupation in the details
Pauline
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Hi Pauline,
Yes there are several Joseph Turners,the reason I have not requested marriage certificate is
I believe this will not show his mothers name only his fathers.
I have looked everywhere.I was quite satisfied that Ann Duffield was his mother until I did a recheck on one of the dates and discovered the son of John Turner and Ann Duffield Joseph had died at the age of 16 years therefore not my Joseph, thanks anyway.
Ansett
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Hi Ansett
You say you haven't ordered the marriage certificate but presumably you have the parish register entry (i.e. all the same information) for Joseph & Harriet's marriage, from the details you have given? What was John's occupation, and who were the witnesses? Also, what was Joseph's age (if given)?
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I see that Joseph was aged:
29 in the 1881 census (b 1851-2)
37 in the 1891 census (b 1853-4)
40 at death, Jun qtr 1894 (b 1853-4).
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Marriage;
30 March 1875, St George, Wolverhampton
Joseph TURNER, 21, Bachelor, Labourer, abode Duke St, Father JOHN, Occp Lath Clever
Harriet MARTIN, 18, Spinster, abode Duke St, Father JOSEPH, Occp Sawyer
Witnesses, William Mansell/Mary Rowan
(FreeREG)
Trish :)
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I wonder how you know your Joseph's mother was an Ann? Is it just because you have found certain baptisms with mother's name Ann?
Given the lath cleaver occupation for Joseph's father John at Joseph's marriage I'd think the 1861 family of John (a lath cleaver) with wife Elizabeth and several children including a 7 yr old Joseph would be worth a look - in Blakemore St, Wolverhampton.
RG9/1988/45/10.
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Marriage;
30 March 1875, St George, Wolverhampton
Joseph TURNER, 21, Bachelor, Labourer, abode Duke St, Father JOHN, Occp Lath Clever
Harriet MARTIN, 18, Spinster, abode Duke St, Father JOSEPH, Occp Sawyer
Witnesses, William Mansell/Mary Rowan
(FreeREG)
Trish :)
You beat me to it Trish :)
here is the link
http://www.rootschat.com/links/018g3/
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I agree with avm228
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Baptism to John/Elizabeth is on FreeREG also 27 Dec 1854
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John Turner (b abt 1820 Darlaston) is widowed by 1871 - still a lath cleaver, and 17 yr old son Josh is among the children with him. RG10/2941/52/1.
John & Elizabeth baptised what seems to have been their first child, William, on 25 Mar 1841 at St George, Wolverhampton. Abode: Canal St. Father's occupation: lath cleaver. (FreeREG)
John, Elizabeth and 2 month old William are in Canal St in 1841: HO107/999 bk4 folio 36 page 5.
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If you are sure that is the right family it might be worth investing in Selina's birth certificate to confirm Ann's maiden name but there is also this other possibility
28.2.1842 St Peters John Turner batchelor occ boatman father T Turner locksmith to Ann Turner aged 18 of Wolverhampton father S Turner Lath cleaver
I'm not convinced that a Lath Cleaver and a Locksmith are the same type of occupation
Willow x
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Hi
Baptisms for John and Elizabeth Turner lath cleaver
William 25.3.1841 Canal St St Georges
Thomas 12.10.1851 Littles Lane St Mary
Joseph 27.12.1854 Falkland St St Mary's
Henry 9.8.1857 same
Lucy M 18.2.1860 same.
1871 gives widowed mother Caroline age71 born Tettenhall
So baptism for John 30.7.1820 Bilston St Leonards to William and Caroline Turnercarpenter and sawyer.
They married at St Peter's Wolverhampton 12.7.1819 her surname Southwick.
By 1841 the family are at Canal St Wolverhampton
William Turner 48 lath cleaver y
Caroline 42 y
Henry 19 lath cleaver y
William 13 tinner y
Joseph 10 y
and further down the street
John Turner 20 lathe turner y
Elizabeth 20/25 y
William 2mths y
Unfortunately can't see them on the 1851 census and it does seem strange they have this run of children William 1840,Henry 1844,Sarah 1846,John 1849,Thomas 1852,Joseph 1854, Henry1857,Lucy 1860 and Sussannah 1863.
Could there be 2 misses Elizabeth Turner's?
Ciderdrinker
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Completely different occupation
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=616886.0
Willow x
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Same address as Baptism;
1841 Census
Canal Street,
Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
HO107/999/4/Wolverhampton
John TURNER, 20, Lathe ?
Elizabeth, 20
William, 2mths
All born in County
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John TURNER, 20, Lathe ?
Cutter :) (same as cleaver)
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I cannot easily see a suitable marriage for John Turner & Elizabeth in Wolverhampton. A Sep qtr 1840 marriage to Elizabeth Adams looks tempting, but FreeREG shows that John to be a widowed bricklayer, son of Thomas Turner, a labourer.
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Unfortunately can't see them on the 1851 census and it does seem strange they have this run of children William 1840,Henry 1844,Sarah 1846,John 1849,Thomas 1852,Joseph 1854, Henry1857,Lucy 1860 and Sussannah 1863.
In 1851 they are at Falkland St:
John 31 lath cutter Wolverhampton
Elizabeth 32 Canterbury, Kent
Willliam 10
James 8
Sarah 5
John 2
(children all b Wolverhampton)
HO107/2019/869/21
So Henry 1844 may have died young, hence a later son being named Henry.
James was baptised 11 Sep 1843 St Peter's Wolverhampton, son of John (a carpenter) and Elizabeth, of Canal St.
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So Henry 1844 may have died young, hence a later son being named Henry.
From FreeREG again:
Henry Turner of Canal St, aged 5 yrs 8 months, was buried 10 Jul 1849, St Peter's Wolverhampton.
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Dear Roots Chatters,
Just checked your reply's thank you one and all.
I will go back to the drawing board.I will have a look at the Turner family with wife Elizabeth and research that family.
Started this part of the tree years ago and was fixated that Joseph,s mother was "Ann"
early morning here in "Oz" will get back to you.
Would have got birth certificates, bur several Joseph Turners around that time.
Thank you.......Ansett
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Thank you once again all those kind peole that have taken the time to help me.
Dear AVM228
I decided to have a closer look at the 1861 Census
John Turner Lathe Cleaver age 41, wife Elizabeth,their address Blakemore Street the family include Joseph Turner age 7 yrs;
several other children, this family I could not match to other Turners in my tree:
John Turner Boatman: age 40 his wife Elizabeth Living Albion Street
once again children did not match;
John Turner age 43 Hinge presser with wife Ann:Living Shakespear Street
the siblings to Joseph age 8 year I have researched satisfied that they could belong
however,this Joseph is shown to have died at an early age.
So what has happened to my Joseph Turner??
Next door at 5 Shakespear Street are 3 members of the Duffield Family perhaps Ann Duffield is
the mother of the Joseph Turner that married Harriet Martin? :).
I will send for Josephs Turners death certificate just to establish the correct information:Also at Willow's suggestion will check selina's birth cert:
Thank you.
Ansett
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I decided to have a closer look at the 1861 Census
John Turner Lathe Cleaver age 41, wife Elizabeth,their address Blakemore Street the family include Joseph Turner age 7 yrs;
several other children, this family I could not match to other Turners in my tree:
Who are you trying to match them to? They match the information you have given us about Joseph and about his father John, and the post-marriage information shown in the censuses about Joseph. What else (if anything) is known for certain about your Joseph, if one leaves aside the previous assumption that he was part of John and Ann's family?
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Hiya Ansett
I think you have missed something in the information you have been given Joseph's parents are John and Elizabeth
baptism 27.12.1854 St Marys Joseph Turner parents John and Elizabeth of Faulkland Street father is a Lath Cleaver
If you look at the 1871 census Joseph is with his widowed father in Steelhouse Lane it has been written on the census as Jos.h and transcribed as Josh John was born c1818 Darlaston and his mother Catherine is living with them
The John and Ann are a different family and theirs is the Joseph that died aged 16
Willow x
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Dear Willow,
Thank you.....what you say does make sense.
Very hard to get the old head around different thinking....I have claimed the wrong family after all.
I will sit down at the weekend and start afresh.The reason I had a look at this side of the family again was I realised that the "Joseph" I had in my tree died at an early age therefore no relation at all!
I will look forward to researching John and Elizabeth.
Best wishes Ansett: Will let you now my findings. :) :) :)
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No problem
I spent 10 years researching the wrong greatgrandmother so I know what you mean
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=618338.msg4670127#msg4670127
Willow x
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Hello Willow,
10 Years! I'm starting to feel a bit better,
The problem is I feel a bit of a fraud:.You get attached to the names you have researched thinking that these are true and correct.You find out where they live where they married Baptised etc, you feel they are your family.Now I have to rethink.They had been in my tree for years: :(
I will put it aside for a little while.I can't believe that I made such a stupid mistake. :-[
I found the error when I was doing a check and realised that the date on Joseph Turners death:
Thanks again.....think I will have a drink. ( What made you realise you had the wrong Gt Gt Grandmother)?? :o
Ansett.
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I brought the death certificate for the person I believed was my grans grandmother who was on the 1901 census with her to find out that she had died in the January so it couldnt be her (its all in the link I posted)
I know what you mean about getting attached to them though even if they are the wrong ones
Willow x
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Thanks Willow,,
Still absorbing your story....Will follow up on John Turner and Elizabeth with different thoughts and attitude.
Looks like I may have a new branch of the family...and I thought I was nearly finished. (joke)
Ansett: Oz.
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I too have "been there, done that". Early on I skipped buying a birth certificate and attributed my great grandmother to entirely the wrong maternal family whose history I then researched, painstakingly tracing them through the censuses (which at the time were not online or digitally searchable). Only later when I ordered great-granny's birth certificate for my records did I discover her mother's true maiden name, and my elementary error.
We live and learn ::). I never made that mistake again!
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Ha did that with my great grandad too had a whole Harris family that I wasn't related too lol
Willow x