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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: roxy51 on Tuesday 08 July 14 07:09 BST (UK)
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Born Nottingham UK 1831
Arrived Australia 1858
Lived in Collector NSW or around the Goulburn area
Worked as shepherd at Winderdeen Station near Collector
Partner Ellen Narven, Narver or Navin
Son Joseph born 1867
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Hi Roxy and welcome what information are you looking for ?
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Hi Rosie, Thanks for your quick reply. I know our John arrived onboard I.R. Moro from San Francisco into Sydney in 1858. Would like to trace his movements before that, who were his parents and if he headed to America for the gold rush and then onto Australia. He died before 1906 but I can't find a death for him here so maybe he went back to the UK. He was a bit of a rebel as he was in jail for various minor offences and then once for arson. He is a direct relative of my husband and I have been trying to find out more about him for some time. This is my first time on rootschat, so hope you can help. I know there were a lot of Hutchinsons born in the Nottingham area, but which one is him??? Many thanks
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat, did John marry the Ellen Narven, if so when, and do you have the marriage certificate as his father's name & occupation should be on it?
Keyboard86
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No he didn't marry Ellen. I can't find anything on her either. Her name varied from Narver, Narven, Nagle and I've tried every combination to try and match without success. They had their son Joseph when they were both aged 31 (no other children that I can find). So maybe he was already married back in UK. He was deceased when Joseph married in 1906, but Ellen was still alive.
You are really on the ball. What time is it back there?
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;D 02:00 working night shift, break time now!
Keyboard86
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Welcome to rootschat Roxy.
This is a tricky one as your research spans several countries - you probably need help from Austrailan experts as well as Nottinghamshire and also the USA.
Maybe see how you get on here first, but you might need to ask for lookups on other boards too. :)
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If John's year of birth was correct and he was born about 1831 in Nottinghamshire, presumably he might still be living with parents in the 1841 census, aged 10.
Looking for John Hutch*son b1831 +/- 5 years, there are only 13 results. This could probably be narrowed down a bit to births +/- 2 years. It might be feasible to research each of those Johns, follow them through the censuses to see which ones stay in Nottingham, which die and which disappear - using a process of elimination to find your John.
Ideally, if you can find a death for him in Australia, his d/c may name parents. This is probably the best starting point for you. Perhaps you should start a new thread on the Australia board? (Provide a link to this and any other related threads to prevent duplication of effort)
Have you found a death or burial for Ellen to see if John is with her?
PS. There are other scenarios of course, such as the whole family going to the USA when John was young, his parents dying etc, so John may have left England prior to the 1841 census. :-\
PPS. How sure are you that he and Ellen did not marry? Do you have son Joseph's birth certificate? Did this tell you that father John was born in Nottingham?
On an Australian thread I would ask for checks for a marriage and other children as well as a death for John.
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Hi there,
Some New South Wales, Australia info:
NSW Electoral Roll, 1870 ARGYLE
John HUTCHINSON, residence, Kippilaw.
NSW ER 1878 ARGYLE
NO listing for anyone with surname HUTCHINSON.
So, it seems he had moved on by 1878.
Kippilaw is around 10 km west of Goulburn. http://www.gundaroo.info/genealogy/cemeteries/kippilaw/kippilaw.htm
http://www.gundaroo.info/genealogy/cemeteries/kippilaw/kippilaw.pdf Perhaps there’s a name there that may lead back to Ellen or her family.
Do you have Joseph's NSW birth cert (or official transcription) and if so, what info noted there ...?
Did Joseph marry in Australia, perhaps in NSW in 1906? What info is on that marriage cert (or official transcription) ?
I am happy to look through my NSW resources, just need some further clues ;D so I hope you don't mind my asking lots of questions.
Here's some more questions....
Re Joseph's mum .... What are the various documents that are giving you the alternative spellings of her name? Do you know if she was born NSW? Do you know where she died?
ADD
Could this be Joseph's birth registration?
The NSW BDM online index has a birth registered for a Joseph HUTCHINSON, with father as John and mother as Ellen. (#9566). The register’s entry should include details that the informant provided as to where and when John and Ellen married, as well as Ellen’s nee name. The same number (#9566) at the index is also showing "NARVEN" for Joseph, and his father's name is not displayed. The surname for the CHILD was not actually a feature of NSW Birth registration certificates until very recent times (post 1975 from memory)
Civil Registration commences in NSW in March 1856, and births were recorded by deputy registrars receiving VERBAL advice from the informants until around WWI when the regulations were 'tightened'.
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM,
Glad to have you aboard (I'm not too good with Australian resources).
I will guess that Roxy has Joseph's birth registration as she mentions the surname Narven (unusual name) but it would be interesting to find out other sources of variations of Ellen's surname.
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Hello everyone. I am overwhelmed by the response to my mysterious John. Thank you so much. What I have is Birth Certificate for Joseph born Winderdeen near Collector 29 Sep 1867 Father John Hutchinson aged 36, Shepherd born England , mother Ellen Narven, aged 36. Not married. Cert copy of birth father John, mother Ellen Narver (both aged 36). She was born in Ireland.
Joseph's marriage certificate at Dubbo NSW 1906, Father deceased, Mother Ellen Narvan still living
Joseph's death certificate in Toowoomba Queensland 1915, father John, mother Ellen Nagel
John: 1867 Collector Police Court fight with another shepherd - both in the employ of James Chisholm.
1867 Collector Police Court ill treating a cow
1878 Goulburn Police Court charged with arson the property of G.H. Hay, Paling Yards, Amercrombie River. Charges dismissed.
The family then supposedly moved to Bathurst, NSW
Joseph married Mary Ann Galvin (sometimes known as Ryan). She was from the Yass area. The family moved to the Bell area in Queensland about 1907 and that's where my direct family starts.
Thanks again everyone, something for me to work with.
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Hi Roxy,
Sorry for the long post, but I hope it is helpful.
Who was the informant on Joseph's birth cert? I am expecting it was John Hutchinson himself. Does it actually say "not married" .... I have a NSW BDM cert from 1858 where the child's father was the informant, and both parents are named, and it also says "not married".
As both John and Ellen were in their mid 30s, I would expect Ellen's surname to possibly be a married surname, rather than her maiden surname, but it all depends on what the informant's understanding was of the questions asked by the local registrar. In the 1860s, the rural registrars were part time appointments, and quite often were undertaken by the Sheriff or his deputy or the clerks who worked for the Sheriff at the local court houses. Afterall, there was not the population to support a full time position. So, the info was obtained verbally, the registrar asking the questions, and writing down the answers in their ledger book, facing themselves. The ledger was on the very wide counter used in the admin section of the court houses, and the counter was quite a high one. Most informants had not achieved a uni education, so they could not read 'upside down' to check all the details exactly. Then when the clerk had finished recording, the large ledger book was swung around and the informant was asked to "Sign here" .... And many of those clerks were excellent at making indecipherable scribbles ::)
As Joseph's birth cert notes his parents as 'not married' I will guess that the clerk did not even ask about any other children, (NSW BDM certs include details of the older siblings, when they are the issue of the marriage, so you can get their names and ages, or at least their gender and ages, and the gender of any who had already surcumbed).
But it is very likely that a 36 year old woman had previously given birth, so that Joseph may well have had older siblings, or half siblings. As Ellen was alive when Joseph married, do you know if she was at the wedding? I have some offline NSW resources, particularly for the Western Land Division of NSW so I will try to find some clues using the variations on her surname.
Of course, you are actually seeking info back into John HUTCHINSON's origins, and Ellen's too. But I am very NSW centric, so you will need other RChatters helping you with that earlier info.
Would you be able to please type up all the info on the NSW BDM for Joseph please.
Here are the usual headings from that era:
:) A number in a column on the far left of the official cert, but not noted on official transcriptions: (it is the line number in the local registrar, and these are now archived at NSW State Records, access is actually not permitted to these local registrars anymore).
:) Date and place of birth of child: (can include a street address or a property name, but often in rural districts, just a locality name …. It was the usual residence, sufficient details on the birth cert for the then postal system to deliver ordinary mail !)
:) Given name of the child, and whether present or not (SURNAME is NOT found in this column, and “present” refers to was the child taken to the local registry office or not)
:) Sex (Boy or Girl; Male or Female)
:) Father’s name (Given names, and Surname)
Father’s then occupation
Father’s then age
Father’s birthplace (sometimes the village, and colony, other times, the county, and then country)
:) Date and place of marriage
Previous issue (of THAT marriage)
:) Mother’s given name, and maiden surname, age, and birthplace
:) Informant (full name they were then using, their relationship to the child, and their usual address)
:) :) :)
{Then the name of the attending Doctor (or the word ‘’none”)
{The name of the midwife or witness to the birth
{The name of a third witness
(only needed ONE name between these three ”{“ )
:) The Name of the registrar making the local record, and the date and place.
Here’s a link to a sample that the NSW BDM has on its website. It is for Henry LAWSON, a famous Australian Poet. He was born at Grenfell, NSW, and his birth was registered at Forbes NSW.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/resources/b1867-11928.pdf
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM
Thanks for your info. I will try and answer your questions
No in left hand side is 97
Date and place of child's birth is 29 September 1867 at Winderadeen near Collector NSW (this was a property owned by James Chisholm, John was a shepherd there)
Given name of child was Joseph, and not present.
Sex - boy
Fathers name - John Hutchinson, Shepherd, age 36, birthplace England
Date and place of marriage - not married
Mothers name - Ellen Narven, age 36, birthplace Ireland
Informant John Hutchinson, father, Witness Mrs Howard, Registered by C.S. Alexander on 6 November 1867 at Goulburn.
No attending doctor or midwife mentioned
BUT THEN on a certified copy of the birth No B110263, mother's name is Ellen Narver
and they were not married. Registration No 4897
I had the same thought that a woman aged 36 probably would have had previous children in those days. (although I did not have my only child until I was 41!!)
There was another John Hutchinson and wife Ellen who lived in Dungog NSW. When I looked at the BDM for children born to them Joseph appears but I don't think this is the same family.
On Joseph's marriage certificate, they married on 20 February 1906 at Dubbo. John is deceased, occupation Labourer. Ellen is alive but she is known as Ellen Narvan on the certificate. Maybe she was illiterate and with her Irish accent it maybe Navin, Nevin, but where the Nagel came from I don't know. This was on Joseph's death certificate. He died in 1915, mabe she married a Nagel after John's death????
Anyway you have all got me interested in family history after a long malaise.
Thank you once again
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Regarding Ellen's (various versions of her) surname ... I can see Narver and Narven possibly being an error with the last letter. There is not much difference between a little r and a little n and perhaps it was misread. :)
The most likely would be Narvin/Narven/Narvan as this was given on both Joseph's birth and marriage certificate.
Death Certficate saying her name is Nagel? It is possible that she married Mr Nagel after John's death but it would be a huge coincidence that the surnames were so similar. As you are probably aware, information on d/cs may not be accurate and even close relatives as informants can get some details wrong.
Anyway, what I am trying to get to in a roundabout way, is that there is no record of the surname Narven (and variants) here:
http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Surnames.aspx
Nagel appears to be German.
Nevin and Navin do exist as (English) surnames.
Saying Narven over in my head in a (poor) Irish accent, I agree with you Roxy that Nevin is a possibility.
All this could be irrelevant is Narven is a previous married name. ::)
JM, do you have any idea where to start looking for a death and burial for Ellen? (just hoping there may be clues on a d/c about earlier marriages, children etc .... :-\)
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Hi JM
Any joy on my John Hutchinson. I have been off line for a while attending to more pressing matters!! Many thanks for your help so far. I discovered he also worked at Kippilaw as well as Windaerdeen (near Collector). Both properties were owned by James Chisholm. I have written to the Chisholm Clan website hoping they maybe able to supply names of people they employed. :)
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Hi JM
Have not heard anything from you re my ancestor John Hutchinson. I guess you have not had any success. Can you let me know if you have
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Wrong thread ;D
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Umm.... during 2014 my puter was on overload and was eventually replaced. I cannot see if I did find further info to share with Roxy51. I am sorry if I failed to keep you posted Roxy, and if you want me to re-check, please just ask. I see you were online yesterday.
JM
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".. I know our John arrived onboard I.R. Moro from San Francisco into Sydney in 1858".
How have you identified this John HUTCHINSON, and John HUTCHINSON, father of Joseph, b. 1867, to be the same man?
Who are the witnesses on the marriage certificate, 1906?.
What residential addresses are on this certificate?.
Where are they married.....name of church......
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Just some jottings as I refresh my grey cells with current jottings after quick re-read of the thread. .
NSW BDM online index.
Birth for Joseph 29 Sept 1867 is indexed twice at NSW BDM. (#9566)
One entry has surname as HUTCHINSON, with John as father and the other entry has surname as NARVEN, no father displayed. Registered Goulburn district.
Index prepared in 1930s, from original registers, which were in longhand, and by 1930s they had been ‘well used’ …. Ink bleeds, thumbed corners, pages torn etc., and 1867 … that’s an era when the info was given orally at the local court house, so the clerk recording it may have had different accent from the informant, and may not have had a university degree in spelling. The register would be facing the clerk, the informant would be on other side of the counter, and may not have had a university degree in reading clerk’s scribble ‘upside down’, and more than likely was not as literate as the clerk. But notice that Joseph’s dad was the informant, and that’s likely to indicate his willingness to acknowledge the informal marriage relationship with Ellen.
Marriage 1906 … #1198 registered Dubbo district a Joseph HITCHINSON and Mary A RYAN … likely to be same Joseph as he has given correct parents’ names accepting spelling variations seem to point back to the 1867 birth cert (#9566).
Agree with Wivenhoe, yes, the info on the 1906 marriage … witnesses, addresses, denomination of church etc … would be very helpful, AND also how does the chap on the ship from San Francisco in 1858 match up with the chap as informant on the 1867 birth cert – that’s a very important question to tackle, particularly if I mention there’s HUTCHISON as a possible spelling variation at the indexes at NSW BDM. – John HUTCHISON, aged 48 years died Yass 28 February 1881, death registered Yass District in 1881. #11226
JM
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John Hutchinson and his son Joseph were charged with arson in 1878 Goulburn Court. I did find his gaol record on Ancestry. Joseph was not charged. He was only 11 or 12. It said John was born in Nottingham UK 1831. Arrived about 1858 I.R. Moro. Don't know if he was a seaman. His occupation in 1878 was shepherd. I did find some sailing from San Francisco but no John Hutchinson.
Joseph was married in 23 Feb 1906 Dubbo - St Brigids Catholic Church. John Hutchinson (labourer) was recorded as deceased. His mother Ellen Narvan was still alive. Witnesses: James Bowman and Kate Mallow. Minister Nicholas Cooney. Reg No 1906/001198
Does this help?
Many thanks
Roxy :)
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Yes, it certainly does. BOWMAN ... now just look across at my avatar ;D Fingers crossed I have some papers on one of those witnesses.
JM
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John HUTCHINSON was acquitted of the Arson charge on 21 June 1878.
JM
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BDM NSW birth
2818/1898 GALVIN William J parents - / Mary @ Dubbo
2818 /1898 HUTCHINSON William J parents Joseph / Mary @ Dubbo
(William James HUTCHINSON KIA 20 Nov 1916 #5054)
BDM QLD birth
1907 C3160 Dorris Mary Ann HUTCHINSON
parents Joseph / Mary Ann Ryan
1911 C2812 Francis Percy HUTCHINSON
parents Joseph / Mary Ann Galvin
BDM QLD death
1934 C4664 Mary Ann HUTCHINSON
parents John Galvin / Mary Ann Ryan
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NSW ER 1902 ROBERTSON, polling at Dubbo
Patrick GALVIN, of Dubbo, labourer. (JM advises that there’s no street addresses for anyone on this roll for those polling at Dubbo)
Also, NO ONE with surname NARVER or variations. Roll is alpha by surname so there’s Napthali then Naudin, I checked all those starting with “N” and with “M” and with “W” but there’s more than “Dubbo” the town within the 1906 NSW BDM district of ‘DUBBO’ so I need to find time to consider the other polling places that would be in the NSW BDM Dubbo district ::) ::) .
I will strive to get back to this as soon as, but I have some non RChat commitments that I need to attend to.
JM
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".....Does this help?"
Every piece of information on every record, document, notice that you have is useful.....names, dates, occupations, churches, cemetery, addresses, graves, witnesses, godparents, beneficiaries, mourners, pallbearers, next of kin, executors.........the tea lady, next door's dog, the kid in the back row of the photo.....everything...everything.......
When you are giving information from a source...........please list everything on the document / photo / inscription / notice........
Can you please list every piece of information on the death certificate 1915....names, dates, addresses, children, ages, informant, cemetery etc...etc...everything......everything....everything.
So, when and where was the birth 1867 recorded........?
Got it........
Found this in your reply.... birth is 29 September 1867 at Winderadeen near Collector NSW
Registered by C.S. Alexander on 6 November 1867 at Goulburn.
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Exactly so W, sometimes it is even important to consider all those things and recognise what has NOT been recorded - so you research deliberately seeking to notice what is NOT there...
I have to go ! Long road trip tomorrow, from Nords Wharf to Bowral and then back home.
JM
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".....Does this help?"
Every piece of information on every record, document, notice that you have is useful.....names, dates, occupations, churches, cemetery, addresses, graves, witnesses, godparents, beneficiaries, mourners, pallbearers, next of kin, executors.........the tea lady, next door's dog, the kid in the back row of the photo.....everything...everything.......
When you are giving information from a source...........please list everything on the document / photo / inscription / notice........
Can you please list every piece of information on the death certificate 1915....names, dates, addresses, children, ages, informant, cemetery etc...etc...everything......everything....everything.
So, when and where was the birth 1867 recorded........?
Got it........
Found this in your reply.... birth is 29 September 1867 at Winderadeen near Collector NSW
Registered by C.S. Alexander on 6 November 1867 at Goulburn.
Wivenhoe
Death cert of Joseph Hutchinson: 14 Jan 1915, Labourer, Toowoomba General Hospital. 47 years, Cancer of liver, Medical attendant R.G. Bridgman,Father: John Hutchinson, LABOURER, Mother Ellen Nagel; Certified by J.C. Vary, Sec, Toowoomba General Hospital, Registrar J.J. Leahy 15 Jan 1915; Burial 15 Jan 1915 Toowoomba Cemetery,Funeral Dir Thomas W. Burstow, Priest John J. O'Connell RC, witnesses W.J. Devine and D. Carroll; where born Goulburn NSW; 9 years in Qld, 38 years in NSW; Married Wagga Wagga (not correct but in Dubbo in 1906) at 29 years to Mary Ann Galvin. Issue: William James 16, Thomas Joseph 15, Maud Emily Florence 13, John Edward 10, Doris Mary Ann 7 Frances Percival 3.
Hope this helps
Roxy
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Re the James Bowman, witness at the 1906 marriage ... sorry, I cannot place him in my extended family without some further info, which I will strive to obtain, but it may take several months.
I will get back onto the main theme, John Hutchinson...
JM