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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Akira01000 on Tuesday 01 July 14 15:01 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
I have posted a previous topic on this, however, my research has since taken a new path [http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=568668.msg4208909#msg4208909]
Details are as follows:
William Brown Born c1809 (Derby, Derbyshire, England) - Note From son's baptism record Nathaniel Brown (born/ Bapt Sydney, New South Wales, Australia)
Married Matilda Watson c1843 (Sydney, New South Wales, Australia)
William Brown Died 1890 (Sydney, New South Wales Australia)
I have gone through hundreds of records for convicts to New South Wales, between 1828 - 1843 as on his death estimated arrival in the colony was 1830 (stated he'd been in the state of NSW for 60 years in 1890.
However, I have found inconsistent information and it has been somewhat unclear for an age 1809 he would have been 21 when arriving in Australia from the UK.
I believe it could be the Mermaid and or the Lady Nugent, but I think the age is wrong for the Lady Nugent and he may have died earlier. Leaving the mermaid, but I haven't found consistent information to confirm the record is correct.
If someone could assist in helping me clarify as there have been so many William Brown's/Browne's and aliased convicts with the name William Brown I have gone through I'm still not entirely sure I have the correct record.
Thanks in Advance
Akira
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Do you have his court and conviction record, this may narrow things down. It may.....if lucky also record the ship.
Neil
ADDED:
This is a link of Old Bailey Records. It has all the William Brown's with offences convictions of those who were transported.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01748/
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What year was Nathaniel baptised / birth reg?
This is the only one i can find with parents William and Matilda ???
1859/1871 BROWN NATHANIEL WILLIAM MATILDA SYDNEY
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I am surprised he or Matilda didn't die earlier. They rarely came up for air. Lots of little Brown's ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0174d/ :o ;D
Neil
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I am surprised he or Matilda didn't die earlier. They rarely came up for air. Lots of little Brown's ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0174d/ :o ;D
Neil
;D They needed a hobby outside of the home.
I think there are 2 or more families amongst them. There are a couple of William Brown's who married Matilda's.
1843 BROWN WILLIAM WATSON MATILDA JB
1843 BROWN WILLIAM WATSON MATILDA JB
1856 BROWN WILLIAM LAMBDEN MATILDA PARRAMATTA
1880 BROWN JAMES WILLIAM LAMBERT MATILDA LAMBTON
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Have come across an odd bit about this William and an apparent name change FROM William BRUCE after he arrived in Australia. ??? ::)
I think he is the one married 1843 to Matilda Watson.
Her death Rec
MATILDA BROWN, UNKNOWN WATSON, DIED SYDNEY, REF # 1133/1887
Neil
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Hi Neil / Giblet,
Thanks for your replies, conviction place I found a ticket of leave that says notts (possibly nottingham assizes?) that would be not far from derby in Derbyshire.
I have noticed there is some duplication between the records for william brown in Sydney and in Parramatta they may be the same family.
BROWN William Mermaid 1830 39/1433 Ticket of Leave District: Parramatta; Tried: Notts ass
Children
William George Brown 1843
John Brown 1845
Mary Brown 1848
Sarah Brown 1850
Matilda Brown 1852
Elizabeth Brown 1859
Rebecca Brown 1861
Samuel Brown 1864 -1867
Samuel Robert Brown 1868
Nathaniel Brown 1871
William Brown's Parents are if it helps William Brown and Emma / Elizabeth (his fathers occupation Blacksmith)
I've had a look at the old bailey records you sent can't find the William Brown conviction date could be 1829 as I found http://www.jenwilletts.com/convict_ship_mermaid_1830.htm the ship left in 1829 and arrived in 6/7 May 1830 in Port Jackson / Sydney Cove.
I also looked up the Sydney Gazette and found two articles and notifications on the same day 7/8 May 1830 from trove.
Things seem to be matching up just havent gotten anything concrete so cant be certain this is correct.
Cheers
Akira
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Have come across an odd bit about this William and an apparent name change FROM William BRUCE after he arrived in Australia. ??? ::)
I think he is the one married 1843 to Matilda Watson.
Her death Rec
MATILDA BROWN, UNKNOWN WATSON, DIED SYDNEY, REF # 1133/1887
Hi Neil,
I have been doing this for a while as mentioned in that post.
It was a fellow researcher whilst doing the family of the brown's that they had mentioned his name could have been bruce.
I havent found any browns aliased as Bruce and vice versa. So haven't confirmed this avenue of research.
Cheers
Akira
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Wouldnt Matilda Watson have been to old to be the mother of Nathaniel Brown 1871 ???
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I am surprised he or Matilda didn't die earlier. They rarely came up for air. Lots of little Brown's ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0174d/ :o ;D
Neil
Hi Neil,
Indeed, no TV in those days and could explain why Brown is a common yet quite popular surname :p
Cheers
Akira
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Wouldnt Matilda Watson have been to old to be the mother of Nathaniel Brown 1871 ???
Hi Giblet,
Matilda Watson was born in 1824/25 in Faitona, Co Tyrone, Northen Ireland
Matilda would have been 47 at this time.
Cheers
Akira
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I had noted that they married in Scot's Presbyterian Church Sydney. It is odd for someone from Derby. But not so, for someone from Scotland by the name of William BRUCE ::)
Neil :-\
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Im having problems with NSW archives. Is there a permission to marry for William and Matilda.
Thanks Akira for clearing Matilda's age up.
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How have you identified your William BROWN to be a convict?
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I had noted that they married in Scot's Presbyterian Church Sydney. It is odd for someone from Derby. But not so, for someone from Scotland by the name of William BRUCE ::)
Neil :-\
Hi Neil
They were married in St Andrew's Scots church I too thought this was strange, as william George Brown was bapt in St Lawrence a CoE church both in Sydney.
However there were a number of convict marriages performed here from what I've been told.
Cheers
Akira
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Children
William George Brown 1843
John Brown 1845
Mary Brown 1848
Sarah Brown 1850
Matilda Brown 1852
Elizabeth Brown 1859
Rebecca Brown 1861
Samuel Brown 1864 -1867
Samuel Robert Brown 1868
Nathaniel Brown 1871
Do you have Nathaniel BROWN's birth cert (or an official transcription of it) ... if so, does IT give you confirmation of Nathaniel's older siblings?
And from that 1871 birth cert, what does it tell you about the INFORMANT? (who was the informant, could he/she read/write ..... did they sign or make their mark ..... what was Dad's occupation, where were they living .... was it likely they had a strong accent .... etc)
The record should give you the Date and place of birth for Nathaniel,and his given name/s and if Nathaniel was present when his birth was being registered.
It should also state that he was a Boy/Male and his Father's full names (given and surname) and occupation, age and where born.
Then it should give you when and where Nathaniel's parents were married, and the details of the previous issue of the marriage ( usually in chronological order) and then Mum's name, maiden surname, age and birthplace.
Then the name of the informant, their relationship to the baby, and their usual address. Then the witnesses to the birth, and then the name of the registrar, the date registered and where it was originally registered.
So if you have the NSW BDM cert, then look back at the column headed "Date and place of birth of child" and notice that to the left of that column there is another narrow column. There is a number in it. That is the line number of the local register where the birth was initially registered.
1859/1871 BROWN NATHANIEL WILLIAM MATILDA SYDNEY
I think this birth was early July 1871, as per NSW BDM new search engine option. :)
Cheers, JM
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From the Records section of Family Search ..... they seem to have indexed TWO marriages that are likely of interest. So this seems to be pointing to at least TWO lasses named Matilda WATSON in Sydney in 1843 :) .... not impossible, but definitely not as likely as finding two males named William BROWN :) :)
William BROWN married Matilda WATSON 4 December 1843, St Andrews Parish, Sydney NSW
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZD-LH4
and
William BROWN married Matilda WATSON 4 November 1843, Sydney NSW.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZS-4B7
May I suggest you consider ordering the two images.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=685720.0
Cheers, JM
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCJ-SS4
William George BROWN, born 17 May 1843, baptised at St Lawrence (likely the temporary building for Christ Church St Lawrence) on 1 Nov 1843. His parents recorded as William BROWN and Matilda WATSON.
Akira, do you have that document? If so, what occupation did the Rev record for William please?
Cheers, JM (I have ummmm..... loads of info on various BROWN families in NSW long before the Gold Rushes)....
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John BROWN’s birth 29 Aug 1845, baptism 12 Feb 1846 was at St ANDREWS Scot’s Church
(parents William Brown and Matilda Watson)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTD8-D38
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTHJ-P8B
Mary Jane’s birth 17 May 1848 baptism 4 Aug 1848, St Andrews, parents as William Brown and Matilda Watson)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTDF-Z6T
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTHJ-6R2
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT6K-98Q
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X126-272
Cheers, JM
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How have you identified your William BROWN to be a convict?
Hi Wivenhoe,
I have identified him through a series of connections to information.
A correlation to his death certificate estimated entry into australia 1828-1843.
The link to the mermaid c1828/1830 arrival and I havent found any information disproving that he wasn't so far.
And family stories of when they were spoken about there would be a hush or a silence when kids would enter the room.
Finally his death certificate has led my up the garden path i.e. Mentions London as Place of Birth c1809.
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How have you identified your William BROWN to be a convict?
Hi Wivenhoe,
I have identified him through a series of connections to information.
A correlation to his death certificate estimated entry into australia 1828-1843.
The link to the mermaid c1828/1830 arrival and I havent found any information disproving that he wasn't so far.
And family stories of when they were spoken about there would be a hush or a silence when kids would enter the room.
Finally his death certificate has led my up the garden path i.e. Mentions London as Place of Birth c1809.
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From the Records section of Family Search ..... they seem to have indexed TWO marriages that are likely of interest. So this seems to be pointing to at least TWO lasses named Matilda WATSON in Sydney in 1843 :) .... not impossible, but definitely not as likely as finding two males named William BROWN :) :)
William BROWN married Matilda WATSON 4 December 1843, St Andrews Parish, Sydney NSW
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZD-LH4
and
William BROWN married Matilda WATSON 4 November 1843, Sydney NSW.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZS-4B7
May I suggest you consider ordering the two images.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=685720.0
Cheers, JM
Hi JM,
I have both transcriptions and certificates for the marriage, there are even two volume numbers for the marriage very odd.
Ok there is a witness John Leary whom marks his name with an X on the marriage Registration/event.
There is little or no information on the origins even in the books / for the series of marriages it was a noodle scratcher at the time.
It wasnt offically compulsory until the 1860's to register so to speak with more information.
Cheers
Akira
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCJ-SS4
William George BROWN, born 17 May 1843, baptised at St Lawrence (likely the temporary building for Christ Church St Lawrence) on 1 Nov 1843. His parents recorded as William BROWN and Matilda WATSON.
Akira, do you have that document? If so, what occupation did the Rev record for William please?
Cheers, JM (I have ummmm..... loads of info on various BROWN families in NSW long before the Gold Rushes)....
Hi JM
William's Occupation was Painter and Matilda's was Pauper in 'benevolent asylum'
Extract from the baptism
The information you have is correct for the marriage, he was born May 1843 and then Baptised in Nov 1843
Cheers
Akira
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Children
William George Brown 1843
John Brown 1845
Mary Brown 1848
Sarah Brown 1850
Matilda Brown 1852
Elizabeth Brown 1859
Rebecca Brown 1861
Samuel Brown 1864 -1867
Samuel Robert Brown 1868
Nathaniel Brown 1871
Do you have Nathaniel BROWN's birth cert (or an official transcription of it) ... if so, does IT give you confirmation of Nathaniel's older siblings?
And from that 1871 birth cert, what does it tell you about the INFORMANT? (who was the informant, could he/she read/write ..... did they sign or make their mark ..... what was Dad's occupation, where were they living .... was it likely they had a strong accent .... etc)
The record should give you the Date and place of birth for Nathaniel,and his given name/s and if Nathaniel was present when his birth was being registered.
It should also state that he was a Boy/Male and his Father's full names (given and surname) and occupation, age and where born.
Then it should give you when and where Nathaniel's parents were married, and the details of the previous issue of the marriage ( usually in chronological order) and then Mum's name, maiden surname, age and birthplace.
Then the name of the informant, their relationship to the baby, and their usual address. Then the witnesses to the birth, and then the name of the registrar, the date registered and where it was originally registered.
So if you have the NSW BDM cert, then look back at the column headed "Date and place of birth of child" and notice that to the left of that column there is another narrow column. There is a number in it. That is the line number of the local register where the birth was initially registered.
1859/1871 BROWN NATHANIEL WILLIAM MATILDA SYDNEY
I think this birth was early July 1871, as per NSW BDM new search engine option. :)
Cheers, JM
Hi JM,
Yes I have the transcript, William Brown (Painter) of, Derbyshire england aged 49 in 1871 he was the informant.
Previous issue 3 Males, 4 Females, I Male deceased (Samuel Brown) you are correct also 3 Jul 1871 at thier residence in Sydney.
Cheers
Akira
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Hi all,
The thing that has been driving me around in circles is this,
On Nathaniel's birth Williams Birth year (c1822) is wrong, Matilda's Birth year (c1839) is wrong and thier marriage year is also wrong(c1848) which I know is not right.
The false information is alarming it has been inconsistent from his death cert even if looking at nathaniels birth record.
Cheers
Akira
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I have both transcriptions and certificates for the marriage, there are even two volume numbers for the marriage very odd.
It is not at all odd to find more than one entry for a baptism or a burial or a marriage in the era BEFORE civil registration commences.
Back in Sept 1810, Gov Lachlan Macquarie issued a general order regarding the recording of baptisms and burials, (later extended to marriages). So that the clergy (of the various denominations) were expected to not just record a baptism or a burial in accordance with their own denomination's Church Laws and Practices, but also to transmit a summary (each quarter) to the NSW Chaplains. So, say a person (any age, baby to adult) was baptised anywhere within the then territory of N S Wales.... the clergyman would record it in his own register .... and then transmit that to his own denomination's Head Office in accordance with his own Church laws. But on top of that, he was under civil general orders to also transmit a summary to the NSW Chaplains. This general order and the practices it developed, continued to operate (more by breach than observance) until the commencement of civil registration.
When the NSW BDM commenced, then many of those Early Church Records came across to the NSW Registrar General's office. They were NOT put into Volumes until around 1912 and they were not indexed until around 1930. And the NSW BDM has not ever claimed to hold ALL the records.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-2/short-guide-2 (click on the various headings .... baptisms, burials, marriages)
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-4/short-guide-4 (scroll through and click on many headings there too)
And
There were TWO marriages listed at family search for a William BROWN and a Matilda WATSON .... two different dates .... do you definitely have BOTH those records? two different volumes at NSW BDM so may I please ask which one matches up to which family search record please....
Cheers, JM
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Hi all,
The thing that has been driving me around in circles is this,
On Nathaniel's birth Williams Birth year (c1822) is wrong, Matilda's Birth year (c1839) is wrong and thier marriage year is also wrong(c1848) which I know is not right.
The false information is alarming it has been inconsistent from his death cert even if looking at nathaniels birth record.
Cheers
Akira
Please type up all the info from that birth cert .... that way I can try to help you determine if you have the 'right' Nathaniel Brown's birth cert.
ADD I have the transcript, William Brown (Painter) of, Derbyshire england aged 49 in 1871 he was the informant.
Previous issue 3 Males, 4 Females, I Male deceased (Samuel Brown) you are correct also 3 Jul 1871 at thier residence in Sydney.
ADD
Children
William George Brown 1843
John Brown 1845
Mary Brown 1848
Sarah Brown 1850
Matilda Brown 1852
Elizabeth Brown 1859
Rebecca Brown 1861
Samuel Brown 1864 -1867
Samuel Robert Brown 1868
Nathaniel Brown 1871
TEN children,
five male, five female, 1 male deceased.
Cheers, JM
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Re William George Brown,
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCJ-SS4
William George BROWN, born 17 May 1843, baptised at St Lawrence (likely the temporary building for Christ Church St Lawrence) on 1 Nov 1843. His parents recorded as William BROWN and Matilda WATSON.
Extract from the baptism
he was born May 1843 and then Baptised in Nov 1843
So this William George BROWN was baptised at St Lawrence, CHURCH OF ENGLAND with parents recorded as William BROWN and Matilda WATSON and just days before a William BROWN and Matilda WATSON married at St Andrews PRESBYTERIAN..... I think these details are suggesting that that William George BROWN born 17 May 1843 is NOT a child of the marriage at St Andrews 4 Dec 1843 between William BROWN and Matilda WATSON.
TEN children listed on the thread v EIGHT children listed on the 1871 birth transcription, with William as the informant.
Cheers, JM
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City of Sydney Assessment Books date from 1840s, and transcriptions are readily available online.
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/assessment-books
Have you been able to eliminate some of the many William BROWN chaps using these?
The following comes from the 1870 Electoral Roll for West Sydney. These are just the many William BROWN chaps. Each one is a different chap. You have Nathaniel as born 3 July 1871, so I am looking up this 1870 electoral roll. (West Sydney includes The Rocks, across to Pyrmont, but not Glebe/Forest Lodge, etc, and it does not include East Sydney or Newtown)
So NSW ER 1870 WEST SYDNEY all listings for
William BROWN :
freehold at 26 Mount St
residence, at Mount St
household, 629 Geoge St
household, Barker’s lane
household, off Goulburn St
leasehold, Druid St
household Pitt Street
household, 59 Dixon St
leasehold, 21 Way’s terrace
household, 43 Argyle Street
household Ferry Lane
Household Union Street
There’s also a William E BROWN, household Albert St
And a William BROWNE residence 177 Cumberland St
NSW ER 1870 EAST SYDNEY all listings for
William BROWN
residence 33 Bligh St
rooms, Union Club
household 125 Campbell St
freehold 398 Liverpool St, houses Liverpool & Victoria sts
offices 207 Pitt St
household 15 John St
leasehold 7 Mary St
household Albion St
residence 15 Judge St
household 13 Ryder St
And a William K BROWN residence Albion St
And a W F BROWN, of Bligh St, room Union Club
And a William BROWNE household 27 College St
And a William W BROWNE, of Macquarie St, rooms, Civil Service Club
Cheers, JM
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City of Sydney Assessment Books date from 1840s, and transcriptions are readily available online.
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/assessment-books
Have you been able to eliminate some of the many William BROWN chaps using these?
The following comes from the 1870 Electoral Roll for West Sydney. These are just the many William BROWN chaps. Each one is a different chap. You have Nathaniel as born 3 July 1871, so I am looking up this 1870 electoral roll. (West Sydney includes The Rocks, across to Pyrmont, but not Glebe/Forest Lodge, etc, and it does not include East Sydney or Newtown)
So NSW ER 1870 WEST SYDNEY all listings for
William BROWN :
freehold at 26 Mount St
residence, at Mount St
household, 629 Geoge St
household, Barker’s lane
household, off Goulburn St
leasehold, Druid St
household Pitt Street
household, 59 Dixon St
leasehold, 21 Way’s terrace
household, 43 Argyle Street
household Ferry Lane
Household Union Street
There’s also a William E BROWN, household Albert St
And a William BROWNE residence 177 Cumberland St
NSW ER 1870 EAST SYDNEY all listings for
William BROWN
residence 33 Bligh St
rooms, Union Club
household 125 Campbell St
freehold 398 Liverpool St, houses Liverpool & Victoria sts
offices 207 Pitt St
household 15 John St
leasehold 7 Mary St
household Albion St
residence 15 Judge St
household 13 Ryder St
And a William K BROWN residence Albion St
And a W F BROWN, of Bligh St, room Union Club
And a William BROWNE household 27 College St
And a William W BROWNE, of Macquarie St, rooms, Civil Service Club
Cheers, JM
Hi JM,
Basically both match for differing reasons, he was a painter and a glazier by trade.
William Brown 59, Dixon St (1870 residence matches residential address.
William Brown Liverpool & Victoria sts
offices 207 Pitt St (1870 East Sydney Matches business address)
I hadn't looked at that but with soo many william browns you tend to go alittle cross eyed.
Cheers
Akira
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Our OP has kindly sent me some BROWN BDM transcriptions.
Name : Nathaniel
Sex : Male
Born : 3 July 1871, 39 Dixon St, Sydney
Father : William BROWN, a Painter, born Derbyshire England, and aged 49 years
Married 1848, Sydney (JM notes …. I wonder if that is a mis-read, and 1848 ought to be 1843)
Mother, Matilda Watson, BORN County Armagh, Ireland, and aged 32 years
Previous Issue 3 Males, 4 Females, living, and 1 male deceased.
Informant William BROWN, father, of Dixon St, (signed)
Present at birth MRS WATSON
Birth registered 11 August 1871, Sydney.
So, was that Matilda’s likely mother who was present at the birth of Matilda’s youngest child?
Cheers, JM
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Our OP has kindly sent me some BROWN BDM transcriptions.
Name : Nathaniel
Sex : Male
Born : 3 July 1871, 39 Dixon St, Sydney
Father : William BROWN, a Painter, born Derbyshire England, and aged 49 years
Married 1848, Sydney (JM notes …. I wonder if that is a mis-read, and 1848 ought to be 1843)
Mother, Matilda Watson, BORN County Armagh, Ireland, and aged 32 years
Previous Issue 3 Males, 4 Females, living, and 1 male deceased.
Informant William BROWN, father, of Dixon St, (signed)
Present at birth MRS WATSON
Birth registered 11 August 1871, Sydney.
So, was that Matilda’s likely mother who was present at the birth of Matilda’s youngest child?
Cheers, JM
Hi JM,
It may have been her mother as they lived nearby she passed in 1879.
So it matches up :)
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NSW ER 1870 ....
West Sydney has 40 males surnamed WATSON .....
Cheers, JM
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NSW ER 1870 ....
West Sydney has 40 males surnamed WATSON .....
Cheers, JM
John Watson was his name and there are a few of his surname and name too .... He passed in 1870, Sydney
Margaret Watson, passed 1879 from memory (need to confirm records)
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Hmm slight BUTT in, but..... I still think you have two Little Willies :-X One a C of E the other a Pressie.... :-\
Neil
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LONG POST, several sub-topics ….
So looking at Sydney addresses on the Transcriptions….
1867 23 April 1867 Goulburn St
3 year old Samuel BROWN sadly succumbed. His parents William BROWNLOW, painter, and Matilda WATSON. The informant was William Brown, father. (Yes, that is what the Transcription reads …. Brownlow v Brown )
1871 3 July 1871, 39 Dixon St
Nathaniel BROWN born at 39 Dixon St., His father, William BROWN a painter was the informant, and he gave Matilda Watson as Nathaniel’s mum.
1874 …… 13 November 1874, Dixon St
28 year old John BROWN, succumbed. His father, William BROWN, a painter was the informant, and he gave Matilda Watson as John’s mum. William was of Dixon St.
1876 …. 11 March 1876, 59 Goulburn St
6 year old Samuel BROWN sadly succumbed. His father, William BROWN, a painter was the informant, and he gave Matilda Watson as wee Samuel’s mum. The family were at 59 Goulburn St.
…………
May I ask about the two marriages that I mentioned earlier …. 4 Nov 1843 and 4 Dec 1843 ….. Do you have transcriptions of these please…. And if so, which one matches up to which date …. It is entirely possible that there were TWO couples rather than the one…. And I am hoping to sort out if there was just the ONE couple.
I am suspecting that these Early Church Records for William BROWN had, by 1912 when they were finally bound up, or by 1930ish when the index was finally attempted (by volunteers) that so many different people had thumbed through these BROWN records, that they had deteriorated quicker than most other pages…. that is, simply because of the surname BROWN, these pages were physically in poor condition because of the need to be constantly inspected whenever anyone asked for info about a William BROWN … It is likely to be in the top TEN of popular names in NSW historic records. .
So, in a practical sense, it is important to consider that the records are actually written in ink, in longhand, and so these ink records are subject to ‘bleeding’ nib markings, fading at different rates due to the variations in the flow and amount of ink, and of course, poorly formed numbers (eg 1848 v 1843) or 32 (age for Nathaniel’s mum when he was born). So these records themselves, they were indexed by teams of volunteers in the 1930s (they were of course all very familiar with 19thC longhand, as that is their own hand too, and it was still taught in NSW primary schools well into the 1950s) …. That index is the basis of the index that NSW BDM uses even today. And the originals of Early Church Records (the ones pre civil registration commencing March 1856) are NOT accessed by either NSW BDM staff or by official transcribers. They access the 1930s film of those records.
I guess that what I am trying to convey is that it is unlikely the informant’s provided false information about themselves, rather that the NSW BDM records are less than perfect, and therefore I am suggesting you try to find other ways to obtain those official records…. Hence my suggestions re the family search option.
Cheers, JM
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1876 …. 11 March 1876, 59 Goulburn St
6 year old Samuel BROWN sadly succumbed. His father, William BROWN, a painter was the informant, and he gave Matilda Watson as wee Samuel’s mum. The family were at 59 Goulburn St.
Yes, this wee lad died 1876, and aged 6. I can find a birth registered for a Samuel R BROWN in 1868. And after some 'fiddling' around at NSW BDM online, he was born in July 1868. So, by March 1876 he was NOT still six years of age. He was SEVEN, and in his eighth year. So, I am setting that 1876 dc transcription to one side, as it is not helping to confirm or eliminate the possibility of more than one William and Matilda BROWN, he a painter, in Sydney in that era.
(NSW BDM births #2231/1868)
Cheers, JM
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Not sure if this helps or not JM
SMH
Friday 3 May 1867
DEATHS.
On the 23rd April, at the residence of his parents, 59, Dixson-street, Sydney, of bronchitis, after measles, SAMUEL, youngest son of WILLIAM and MATILDA BROWN, aged 3 years and 3 months.
---------------------------------------------------
SMH
Tuesday 14 March 1876
BROWN. —March 11, at his parents' residence, Samuel Robert, son of William and Matilda Brown, of 59, Dixon-street, aged 7 years.
--------------------------------------------------
SMH
Monday 16 November 1874
BROWN.—November 14, at the residence of his aunt, Mrs.McEldownie, Pitt-street South, John Brown, the second and beloved son of William and Matilda Brown, of East Dixon-street, aged 28 years.
---------------------------------------------------
SMH
Monday 30 December 1878
BROWN.—December 23, at the Sydney Infirmary, of liver complaint, Elizabeth, beloved daughter of William and Matilda Brown, of Dixon-street, Sydney, in her 20th year.
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Yes, it certainly does help giblet.
SMH
Monday 16 November 1874
BROWN.—November 14, at the residence of his aunt, Mrs.McEldownie, Pitt-street South, John Brown, the second and beloved son of William and Matilda Brown, of East Dixon-street, aged 28 years.
For example, we now have a much less popular name and a relationship to follow up....
Fantastic, so we need to know from our OP as to how was Mrs McEldownie, of Pitt street South the AUNTIE to John.
I did not type up the transcription but John's dc does have his place of death as Pitt Street South....
Cheers, JM
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I cant find any McEldownie's in the nsw bmd ??? Spelling error in the papers maybe.
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Got it
NSW marriage
V1849484 79/1849 MCELDOWNEY JAMES WATSON MARY J JA
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Hi All,
I have posted a previous topic on this, however, my research has since taken a new path [http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=568668.msg4208909#msg4208909]
Just popping some live links to two threads here so we are not duplicating earlier efforts.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=568536.0 (London Board …. William Brown or Bruce)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=568668.0 (Aussie Board William Brown or Bruce)
Cheers, JM
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:) Well found giblet. Our OP's bio that was sent by email to me today, does NOT have parents info about Matilda WATSON, and you have found a sister for Matilda. So there's a possibility of confirming info from Mary J's BDM certs :) .... I wonder if the Mrs Watson on the 1871 birth cert for Nathaniel could be the wife of a possible brother to these two lasses.... all speculations of course, but answers could help solve that part of this family for our OP.
Cheers, JM
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Sands 1877 Sydney Directory.
Mrs M McEldowney, off 380 Pitt St
May I mention that the cutting giblet found re John BROWN’s death did not make mention of Mrs McEldownie’s husband, perhaps she was already a widow
ADD
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory free to search and only recently became available via City of Sydney ;D
Cheers, JM
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Also from City of Sydney assessment books
Denison 1880 53 15 15
42 Dixon Street Mary J McEldowney
Owner...... J Chard......... House £18
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NSW death index
695/1865 MCELDOWNEY JAMES father ANDREW mother JANE SYDNEY
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From the bio re Matilda WATSON …. Matilda’s death …. 21st July 1887, at home, 39 Dixon St, buried 23 July 1887 Congregational Rookwood …. Independent Old Grounds Grave 2543 with William, her husband.
Agh, red post .... it seems likely Mary J McEldowney was a widow, I wonder who was the informant when she died, and if the info they provided would be helpful as Matilda's dc seems to have scant info about her parents.... (NSW BDM index has unknown WATSON for her father, and no info displayed for her mum).
Cheers, JM
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Im having problems finding a death for Mary J McEldowney ::) It'll be the jolly spelling of the surname i bet ;D
It gave me a hard time but i found it ;D
138/1893 MACELDOWNIE MARY J father JOHN mother MARGARET SYDNEY
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LONG POST, several sub-topics ….
So looking at Sydney addresses on the Transcriptions….
1867 23 April 1867 Goulburn St
3 year old Samuel BROWN sadly succumbed. His parents William BROWNLOW, painter, and Matilda WATSON. The informant was William Brown, father. (Yes, that is what the Transcription reads …. Brownlow v Brown )
1871 3 July 1871, 39 Dixon St
Nathaniel BROWN born at 39 Dixon St., His father, William BROWN a painter was the informant, and he gave Matilda Watson as Nathaniel’s mum.
1874 …… 13 November 1874, Dixon St
28 year old John BROWN, succumbed. His father, William BROWN, a painter was the informant, and he gave Matilda Watson as John’s mum. William was of Dixon St.
1876 …. 11 March 1876, 59 Goulburn St
6 year old Samuel BROWN sadly succumbed. His father, William BROWN, a painter was the informant, and he gave Matilda Watson as wee Samuel’s mum. The family were at 59 Goulburn St.
…………
May I ask about the two marriages that I mentioned earlier …. 4 Nov 1843 and 4 Dec 1843 ….. Do you have transcriptions of these please…. And if so, which one matches up to which date …. It is entirely possible that there were TWO couples rather than the one…. And I am hoping to sort out if there was just the ONE couple.
I am suspecting that these Early Church Records for William BROWN had, by 1912 when they were finally bound up, or by 1930ish when the index was finally attempted (by volunteers) that so many different people had thumbed through these BROWN records, that they had deteriorated quicker than most other pages…. that is, simply because of the surname BROWN, these pages were physically in poor condition because of the need to be constantly inspected whenever anyone asked for info about a William BROWN … It is likely to be in the top TEN of popular names in NSW historic records. .
So, in a practical sense, it is important to consider that the records are actually written in ink, in longhand, and so these ink records are subject to ‘bleeding’ nib markings, fading at different rates due to the variations in the flow and amount of ink, and of course, poorly formed numbers (eg 1848 v 1843) or 32 (age for Nathaniel’s mum when he was born). So these records themselves, they were indexed by teams of volunteers in the 1930s (they were of course all very familiar with 19thC longhand, as that is their own hand too, and it was still taught in NSW primary schools well into the 1950s) …. That index is the basis of the index that NSW BDM uses even today. And the originals of Early Church Records (the ones pre civil registration commencing March 1856) are NOT accessed by either NSW BDM staff or by official transcribers. They access the 1930s film of those records.
I guess that what I am trying to convey is that it is unlikely the informant’s provided false information about themselves, rather that the NSW BDM records are less than perfect, and therefore I am suggesting you try to find other ways to obtain those official records…. Hence my suggestions re the family search option.
Cheers, JM
The marriages are exactly the same I ordered both the official certificates as it was hard to tell at the time (when they were cheaper).
Both are exact carbon copies same minister same record just different "registry no" as it is by banns as she was with child then had a child at the time of the second reference?.
No idea why it is like this in the BDM and online ancestry indexes...
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City of Sydney Assessment Book
1867 77 9 9 59 Dixon Street
William BROWN (person rated)
Robert WATSON (owner//landlord) House £17
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Possible....?
BDM NSW death
1108/1893 WATSON Robert parents John / Margaret Sydney
15114/1908 BROWN Matilda parents John / Margaret Petersham
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Possible....?
BDM NSW death
1108/1893 WATSON Robert parents John / Margaret Sydney
15114/1908 BROWN Matilda parents John / Margaret Petersham
Hi Wivenhoe,
The reference for Robert is Correct he was Matilda's brother, not too sure about the Petersham one,
but if you are looking for Matilda Brown she is my direct ancestor and she married John Dickie in 1876 Sydney she passed in 1906
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The Lesley Uebel 'Claim a Convict' site has now disappeared (she died a short while ago) and it seems that somebody has taken up the cudgel see here it might be of help;
http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/claimaconvict/
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The Lesley Uebel 'Claim a Convict' site has now disappeared (she died a short while ago) and it seems that somebody has taken up the cudgel see here it might be of help;
http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/claimaconvict/
Hi Joboy,
Thanks for the reply, didn't know it was back that's good news.
Cheers
Akira
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Hi All,
Thanks for your help so far really appreciate it you have done what I did in 5 years in 5 minutes.
I'm even surprised in some of the gems and new information you have found.
I've started at trying to summarise the information so far as this post is quite large, to see if there is something that links together.
Cheers
Akira
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Hi, Have you been able to go through all the Old Bailey Records of William Brown's sentenced in that period. It should lead to a more positive identification of the correct individual.
Neil
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Hi, Have you been able to go through all the Old Bailey Records of William Brown's sentenced in that period. It should lead to a more positive identification of the correct individual.
Neil
Hi Neil,
I was just going over that now, I can't find a William Brown that matches this record http://www.convictrecords.com.au/convicts/brown/william/99485
This guys a tough nut to crack, I have been googling to no avail to track down some more clearer and definitive proof.
As derbyshire isnt that far from nottinghamshire the general vicinity prior to arrival matches ever so slightly, I just really want to know what he did it has me curious.
Cheers
Akira
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I came across one of William Brown in company with another stole a pair of shoes, some nails and couple of Pots? He was seventeen years old in 1826 (b circa 1809) and found guilty, transported for seven years.
Cannot find what month (whoops) 22nd June as yet nor ship but will continue to look.
Neil
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I came across one of William Brown in company with another stole a pair of shoes, some nails and couple of Pots? He was seventeen years old in 1826 (b circa 1809) and found guilty, transported for seven years. Cannot find what month (whoops) 22nd June as yet nor ship but will continue to look.
Neil
Hi Neil,
This might help
William Brown
Estimated Birth Year: 1809
Conviction Date: 6 Aug 1829
Conviction Place: Nottingham assizes
Transportation Date: 5 Dec 1829
Transportation Place: Sheerness, Kent
Vessel: Mermaid
Ship Master: William Henniker
Surgeon: James Gilchrist
Built: In Calcutta 1817
Class: A
Div: 1
Tonnage: 472
Select Surname Firstname Alias Vessel Year No Date RecordType Citation Remarks
BROWN William - Mermaid 1830 39/398 6 Dec 1839 Ticket of Leave Passport [4/4239; Reel 967] Ticket of Leave 39/1433; On the recommendation of Parramatta Bench
BROWN William Mermaid 1830 39/1433 Ticket of Leave [4/4131; Reel 933] District: Parramatta; Tried: Notts ass
Just put it together from a number of sources just found, feel were getting closer.
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Hi Neil,
A couple of questions if tried/convicted at nottingham would he be sent to the old bailey? Or is it the record of the crime?
As this particular william brown (mermaid 1830) was sentenced to life it must have been pretty bad right?
Cheers
Akira
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Thanks for the official transcript for William BROWN’s death and for Matilda BROWN’s death and for their marriage.
Here's my reading of those transcripts.
136/1890
William BROWN
22 Jan 1890, at Sydney Hospital, NSW
Painter, Male, 80- years
Born London, England,
In the Colonies : 60 years in NSW
Father: William Brown, a blacksmith, Mother : Emma (her maiden name not stated)
Married Sydney at age 30 to Matilda WATSON.
Children of the Marriage :
Mary J 41; Sarah 39; Matilda 37; Rebecca 28; William 45; Nathaniel 18; Living.
3 Males, 2 Females deceased
Informant H D Russell, Secretary, Sydney Hospital.
Buried 23 Jan 1890, Independent Cemetery, Rookwood. W J Cuthbert, Presbyterian.
W Stewart, undertaker. John Griffiths, J E McKew, witnesses.
-------------------------------------------------
1133 / 1887
Matilda BROWN
21 July 1887 at Dixon Street, Sydney NSW
Female, 61 years of age
Born Ireland, about 60 years in NSW
Father (given name and occupation not stated) Watson, Mother (details not stated)
Married Sydney at age 14 to William BROWN
Children of the Marriage ….. not listed on this particular transcription.
Informant C LEWIS, a Friend, Minister of “Elim” Elizabeth Street
Inquest unnecessary as per Henry Shiell, Coroner
Buried 23 July 1887, Congregational Cemetery, Rookwood.
Undertaker Henry Mason Junior, Witnesses : John Shepherd, Henry Mason.
----------------------------------------
ECR Marriage 1843 Vol 74B Line 3818
Presbyterian Marriages, St Andrew Parish, County of Cumberland NSW by Rev John McGarvie according to Presbyterian rites.
4 December 1843 at Sydney, by Banns
William BROWN, a bachelor of Sydney
Matilda WATSON, a Spinster, of Sydney, and a member of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland
Witnesses : Margaret Watson of Sydney, George Watson of Sydney, John Leary (his X mark) of Sydney
COMMENT from JM : Do you have a copy of the 4 November 1843 marriage for a William BROWN and a Matilda WATSON ? I mentioned that one earlier on this thread.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
Just had a quick look back on the earlier thread.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=568668.0
May I suggest that you have a read through the NSW SRO's BRIEF guides re BDM records. NSW BDM's head office does NOT hold the original registers. These are filmed, and that filmed version is what NSW BDM uses. May I suggest you seriously consider obtaining (freely available) the family search version of the images of the parish registers.
I am attaching a pdf that gives the 2006 version of NSW BDM's background to the organisation. (2006 was 150th anniversary year of the commencement of the BDM Registrar General's Office).
The Sydney Gazette of 15 September 1810 has Gov Lachlan Macquarie's General Orders re the recording of baptisms and burials in NSW. It ordered that records of baptisms and burials (and later marriages were added to the general orders re this matter) were to be transmitted to the NSW CHAPLAINS. So regardless of the denomination of the ceremony, the event was meant to ALSO be recorded in the NSW Chaplains records. Effectively the C of E's St Phillips parish register became from 1810 "THE REGISTRY" .... So, for example a Wesleyan baptism in an outlying district would be recorded in that Wesleyan register. In turn, a record of that would be TRANSMITTED to the local C of E, and in turn that too would be TRANSMITTED to the NSW Chaplains. Sometimes there's evidence at the NSW BDM index of FOUR or FIVE transmissions of the one event. Othertimes, there's NO evidence at all at the index.
I have already posted several of the links but here they are again :)
NSW BDM State Records Office BRIEF guides re BDM
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-2/short-guide-2 (Click on each heading .... baptism, marriage, death for further info)
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-4/short-guide-4
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-4/volumes-1-123-1/volumes-1-123
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/628068 Sydney Gazette 15 Sept 1810, General Orders re Baptisms and Burials .....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=685720.0 (how to get freely available images of NSW baptisms, marriages, burials from the pre civil registration era)
Cheers, JM
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COMMENT from JM : Do you have a copy of the 4 November 1843 marriage for a William BROWN and a Matilda WATSON ? I mentioned that one earlier on this thread.
Cheers, JM
Hi JM,
I do but its in my records somewhere, havent been able to find it after having a look last night.
Cheers
Akira
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Hi,
So may I suggest that a marriage 4 Nov 1843 and a marriage 4 Dec 1843 most likely means that there's TWO couples. And that's why I am suggesting you order the images of the original parish registers to have a good look at both those two different sets of records. The images have the signatures for the bride and the groom and their witnesses. Even if they needed to make their X mark rather than autograph, these marks can be compared.
The official transcript AND the NSW BDM issued document will NOT have the images. Both these documents are TYPED up, based on NSW BDM records only.
ADD
As posted earlier
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZD-LH4
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZS-4B7
Cheers, JM
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The William BROWN who was transported on the Mermaid was tried at the Nottingham summer assizes on 8 August 1829.
His indent states that he was aged 20 and was a native of (that is "born in") Nottingham. He could not read or write, was a Protestant, married with one child, occupation was bobbin machine maker. He was sentenced to life for stealing silk and the criminal registers show that he was convicted of housebreaking and sentenced to death which was commuted to transportation for life. He was transferred to the prison hulk 'Retribution' and disposed of to NSW. The hulk registers give his age as 19.
I cannot find evidence of his pardon, but usually a lifer had to serve at least 15 years - it really depended on their behaviour and some were pardoned early. I see that the BROWN/WATSON marriage does not include a notation about requiring permission to marry.
The TOL passport (1839) would be worth looking at. Although they don't contain a lot of info, they do give an explanation of why the convict needed to move outside their designated area and where they were going to. It might provide a clue as to whether or not this man is your William. A copy can be ordered via State Archives:
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=65
If you can get to the State Archives the Colonial Secretary's correspondence might also provide info. Microfilm copies are also kept at many State libraries.
http://guides.sl.nsw.gov.au/content.php?pid=445387&sid=3774376
Debra :)
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Hi,
So may I suggest that a marriage 4 Nov 1843 and a marriage 4 Dec 1843 most likely means that there's TWO couples. And that's why I am suggesting you order the images of the original parish registers to have a good look at both those two different sets of records. The images have the signatures for the bride and the groom and their witnesses. Even if they needed to make their X mark rather than autograph, these marks can be compared.
The official transcript AND the NSW BDM issued document will NOT have the images. Both these documents are TYPED up, based on NSW BDM records only.
ADD
As posted earlier
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZD-LH4
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZS-4B7
Cheers, JM
Hi JM,
I have ordered the Nov image currently and will order the december one next, are you supposed to recieve an email confirmation from the order?
Cheers
Akira
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:) You can order up to FIVE items in the one order. It can take a day or two to receive an acknowledgement.
.................................
The funeral of the late Mr William BROWN, of Dixon St, will take place at the Independent Cemetery, Necropolis…… Funeral train …. At 2.30. Walter Stewart, Undertaker….
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13756876 SMH 23 Jan 1890.
I have searched TROVE, but not found any In Memoriam notices in Jan 1891 to help advance the search.
.......................
Steerage passengers arriving on William, (brig, Thom) from Launceston (arrived 20th having sailed out of Launceston 14th Dec) W WATSON, …. William BROWN.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2549634 Sydney Gaz 21 Dec 1839.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31727085 Aust Chronicle 24 Dec 1839
............................
:) Here’s a Miss Matilda WATSON who became a Mrs Lewis RUTLEDGE …..
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31726458 Aust Chronicle 20 Sept 1839
:) There’s also a Matilda WATSON, born in the colony and found on general musters with her parents William and Eliza(beth) who arrived on the Alexander/Fortune 20 Aug 1806 with his wife who came free. By Nov 1828, Matilda, and her parents were in Cambridge St, (The Rocks), William was a barber. Matilda was aged 20, her father aged 63, and her mum aged 53. William had received an absolute pardon.
22 Nov 1830, Scots Church Presbyterian Sydney, by Banns, by Rev John McGARVIE, with consent of All parties. Lewis Routledge aged 29, a Bachelor, of Sydney (signed) and Matilda Watson, aged 22, Spinster, of Sydney (signed) witnesses John Hodge of Sydney (signed) and Jane Dades of Sydney (signed)
29 June 1829
NSW Chaplain, Rev W Cowper, married William ALLEN, Bachelor of St Philips Parish, Sydney, a shoemaker (signed) and Sarah PAWLEY, a Spinster, of St Philips Parish, Sydney, (X mark) by Banns with consent of parent. Witnesses ….. John FINNIS of Sydney (signed) and Matilda WATSON of Sydney (signed)
Cheers, JM
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Miss Matilda WATSON who became a Mrs Lewis RUTLEDGE …..
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31726458 Aust Chronicle 20 Sept 1839
And 8 Nov 1830
Rev Richard Hill, St James, C of E married Henry John CAMROUX aged 23, a bachelor of Sydney, a Mariner (signed) and Sarah Garner, 25, a spinster, (signed) and Witnesses were Lewis ROUTLEDGE (signed) and Matilda WATSON (signed)
Cheers, JM
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136/1890
William BROWN
22 Jan 1890, at Sydney Hospital, NSW
Painter, Male, 80- years
Born London, England,
In the Colonies : 60 years in NSW
Informant H D Russell, Secretary, Sydney Hospital.
Buried 23 Jan 1890, Independent Cemetery, Rookwood. W J Cuthbert, Presbyterian.
W Stewart, undertaker. John Griffiths, J E McKew, witnesses.
Sept 1828
William BROWN aged 21, Born London, Protestant, Reads and Writes, Seaman,
Robbing Warehouse, convicted 22 June 1826, London.
Two previous convictions
Transported per Harcourt 5
Arrived Sydney 8 Sept 1828 and assigned to Thomas HYNDES.
(Convict Indents NSWSRO Vol 4/4013, Countess of Harcourt, Entry No. 16)
ADD
And not to be confused with the William BROWN, aged 25, born Manchester, Protestant Read and Write, transported Countess of Harcourt 5…. Who was assigned to Catherine Hunt, at Patricks Plains. That chap was a brother of John Brown, also transported Countess of Harcourt 5.
Cheers, JM
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136/1890
William BROWN
22 Jan 1890, at Sydney Hospital, NSW
Painter, Male, 80- years
Born London, England,
In the Colonies : 60 years in NSW
Informant H D Russell, Secretary, Sydney Hospital.
Buried 23 Jan 1890, Independent Cemetery, Rookwood. W J Cuthbert, Presbyterian.
W Stewart, undertaker. John Griffiths, J E McKew, witnesses.
Sept 1828
William BROWN aged 21, Born London, Protestant, Reads and Writes, Seaman,
Robbing Warehouse, convicted 22 June 1826, London.
Two previous convictions
Transported per Harcourt 5
Arrived Sydney 8 Sept 1828 and assigned to Thomas HYNDES.
(Convict Indents NSWSRO Vol 4/4013, Countess of Harcourt, Entry No. 16)
ADD
And not to be confused with the William BROWN, aged 25, born Manchester, Protestant Read and Write, transported Countess of Harcourt 5…. Who was assigned to Catherine Hunt, at Patricks Plains. That chap was a brother of John Brown, also transported Countess of Harcourt 5.
Cheers, JM
Hi JM,
Hmm didnt see that one that matches better than the other record, especially with the details of the death certificate, now aligning london rather than derbyshire.
I saw the 'john brown' william on countess of harcourt and disgarded.
And two previous convictions! For the potential william brown....
So Thomas Hyndes who is he? And where is he located?
Cheers
Akira
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:) Will get back to Thomas Hyndes shortly... currently working to eliminate some of the Matilda WATSON lasses...
Re Mrs ROUTLEDGE, (Matilda WATSON)
Louis ROUTLEDGE born 21 Aug 1831, baptised 20 May 1832, son of Louis ROUTLEDGE, Master Mariner and Matilda ROUTLEDGE. Rev William Cowper, St Philips C of E parish register.
Cheers, JM
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http://www.latrobe.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/232734/Keeping-Up-With-The-McNamaras.pdf
Perhaps Thomas HINDS .... and variations in spelling. :) A barber :) at The Rocks ....
Cheers, JM
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http://www.latrobe.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/232734/Keeping-Up-With-The-McNamaras.pdf
Perhaps Thomas HINDS .... and variations in spelling. :) A barber :) at The Rocks ....
Cheers, JM
Hi JM,
Did just find this before wasnt sure but he was assigned some convicts; http://www.sydneyaldermen.com.au/alderman/thomas-hyndes/
And matches also with Sydney and the spelling ;)
Cheers
Akira
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well found, but don't base it solely on the matching spelling. Standard spelling does not become significant until much later in NSW, with the commencement of secular education in 1870s...
Cheers, JM
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well found, but don't base it solely on the matching spelling. Standard spelling does not become significant until much later in NSW, with the commencement of secular education in 1870s...
Cheers, JM
:) thanks, yeah there was a caveat around the information provided and how it was sourced but dont take as gospel ;)
-
http://www.historyaustralia.org.au/ifhaa/schools/evelutio.htm (schooling info 19th Century )
Cheers, JM
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http://www.historyaustralia.org.au/ifhaa/schools/evelutio.htm (schooling info 19th Century )
Cheers, JM
Hi JM,
Thanks, not a bad read gives some insight into how lucky we are these days!
Cheers, Akira
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Hi All,
Just found this the second record more than likely the other William Brown .. (Lancs)
BROWN William Countess of Harcourt 1828 33/0670 22 Jun 1833 Certificate of Freedom [4/4316; Reel 991]
BROWN William Countess of Harcourt 1828 33/304 Ticket of Leave [4/4088; Reel 919] District: Paterson; Tried: Lancaster QS
What do you guys think?
Cheers
Akira
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I had noted that they married in Scot's Presbyterian Church Sydney. It is odd for someone from Derby. But not so, for someone from Scotland by the name of William BRUCE ::)
Neil :-\
Hi Neil
They were married in St Andrew's Scots church I too thought this was strange, as william George Brown was bapt in St Lawrence a CoE church both in Sydney.
However there were a number of convict marriages performed here from what I've been told.
Cheers
Akira
The WATSON family were Church of Scotland
John, Margaret and children under 18 years
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-133614-56?cc=1542665
Elizabeth
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-130293-85?cc=1542665
Robert
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-111592-85?cc=1542665
Rebecca
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-136081-69?cc=1542665
Jane
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-131365-62?cc=1542665
Mary Jane
I cannot see an index card for her on FamilySearch but the manifest shows her as 23 (11 January birthdate I think it says)
Debra :)
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City of Sydney Assessment Book
1867 77 9 9 59 Dixon Street
William BROWN (person rated)
Robert WATSON (owner//landlord) House £17
Hi Wivenhoe,
I believe this could (potentially) be the Robert Watson http://www.sydneyaldermen.com.au/alderman/robert-watson/ as he is listed as being born in "Fintona, Co. Tyrone, Ireland"
Also links with the death registration found ;)
Cheers
Akira
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I had noted that they married in Scot's Presbyterian Church Sydney. It is odd for someone from Derby. But not so, for someone from Scotland by the name of William BRUCE ::)
Neil :-\
Hi Neil
They were married in St Andrew's Scots church I too thought this was strange, as william George Brown was bapt in St Lawrence a CoE church both in Sydney.
However there were a number of convict marriages performed here from what I've been told.
Cheers
Akira
The WATSON family were Church of Scotland
John, Margaret and children under 18 years
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-133614-56?cc=1542665
Elizabeth
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-130293-85?cc=1542665
Robert
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-111592-85?cc=1542665
Rebecca
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-136081-69?cc=1542665
Jane
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11585-131365-62?cc=1542665
Mary Jane
I cannot see an index card for her on FamilySearch but the manifest shows her as 23 (11 January birthdate I think it says)
Debra :)
Hi Debra :)
This is some new information thanks for posting, I never knew they had index cards available on there!
I'm surprised about the religion as I have always been supplied with they were methodists by other researchers.
Where does this information come from and was it transcribed from the original information from the transportation/immigration register?
Cheers
Akira
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Well found Debra ;D
Hi Akira,
Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, formally united in the 1970s, however, even back in the 19th century they co-operated with each other, at least in rural NSW. And also at higher levels in the long running debate re NSW BDM records for marriages ..... 1856-1895 (what to include in the civil registration, v the sacredness of the Church registers) So I do not find it at all odd or surprising you were given that they were of the Methodist denomination.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniting_Church_in_Australia
Cheers, JM
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Hi All,
Just found William Brown's conviction from the old bailey (Thanks Neil) http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18260622-181-punish912&div=t18260622-181#
Record 1# 17 at the time of conviction estimated age born c1811 (in 1828) "old bailey"
Record 2# 21 on the (convict incidents) which would put his estimated birth at c1805 (In 1828)
Record 3# 80 at the time of his death which would put his estimated birth at c1810 (in 1890)
Now record 1# and 3# both match give or take a year but record 2# doesn't appear to match why would this be the case?
Cheers
Akira
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Well found Debra ;D
Hi Akira,
Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, formally united in the 1970s, however, even back in the 19th century they co-operated with each other, at least in rural NSW. And also at higher levels in the long running debate re NSW BDM records for marriages ..... 1856-1895 (what to include in the civil registration, v the sacredness of the Church registers) So I do not find it at all odd or surprising you were given that they were of the Methodist denomination.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniting_Church_in_Australia
Cheers, JM
Hi JM,
That was going to be my next question about the congregational burial as I had only started looking into it ;D
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Hi All,
Just found the following record as there is a william atwood brown not matching to the age but he married and had a child in 1837 same name with parents william and emma.
However this record https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JWWH-7ZG parents born 1809 christ 1810 william brown and Elizabeth matches the age in london but not an Emma is Emma a nickname for Elizabeth?
Cheers
Akira
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Hi there,
Our OP has sent through the NSW BDM issued Marriage certs for their two indexed Early Church Records. And, yes, there’s TWO different dates, but all the other info that NSW BDM holds is the same to both certificates. And, as these are from the Early Church Records, NSW BDM does not issue the IMAGE of the original register, and so only issues a typed up transcription. I continue to be hopeful that the family search organisation’s images will have original signatures to allow a comparison. Hopefully this will result in confirmation or elimination that it is one (not two) couples named William BROWN and Matilda WATSON who were married in Sydney by Rev McGarvie, in late 1843
............................
Vol 74b, line 3818
William BROWN, Bachelor, of Sydney , and a member of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland,
And
Matilda WATSON, a Spinster, of Sydney, and a member of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland
Married by Banns, at Sydney on 4 December 1843 by Rev John McGARVIE, a Presbyterian Minister, of Sydney.
Witnesses:
Margaret Watson and George Watson of Sydney
John Leary (his X mark) of Sydney
..................................
Vol 76, Line 1879
William BROWN, Bachelor, of Sydney , and a member of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland,
And
Matilda WATSON, a Spinster, of Sydney, and a member of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland
Married by Banns, at Sydney on 4 November 1843 by Rev John McGARVIE, a Presbyterian Minister, of Sydney.
Witnesses:
Margaret Watson and George Watson of Sydney
John Leary (his X mark) of Sydney
Cheers, JM
Fingers crossed :)
Hi,
So may I suggest that a marriage 4 Nov 1843 and a marriage 4 Dec 1843 most likely means that there's TWO couples. And that's why I am suggesting you order the images of the original parish registers to have a good look at both those two different sets of records. The images have the signatures for the bride and the groom and their witnesses. Even if they needed to make their X mark rather than autograph, these marks can be compared.
The official transcript AND the NSW BDM issued document will NOT have the images. Both these documents are TYPED up, based on NSW BDM records only.
ADD
As posted earlier
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZD-LH4
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZS-4B7
Cheers, JM
Hi JM,
I have ordered the Nov image currently and will order the december one next, are you supposed to recieve an email confirmation from the order?
Cheers
Akira
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I am hoping that part of the images from family search will include the entry no. in the respective parish register, but of course, that is really only a side issue from the main one, FINDING the signatures of the couple and their witnesses, and comparing these. If I may comment, from my own searchings across the decades, at times Rev McGarvie's scribble has been a scribbled scribble ::) but other times, easy to read. I hope he had plenty of ink, plenty of time, and these images are easy to read.
And my fingers are also crossed that on either or both of the images, in the 'white space' near to the signatures for the groom and the bride, there will be some numbers, as in their ages ;D. As this will of course help further validate our OP's earlier researchings.
Cheers, JM
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Hi Akira,
Where does this information come from and was it transcribed from the original information from the transportation/immigration register?
Cheers
Akira
The immigration details for the WATSON family are from the family's entitlement certificates. These are digitised on Ancestry and are the source of the FamilySearch card indexes. The original handwriting is atrocious. These records and images are free to search on Ancestry this weekend.
I know it is William BROWN that you are chasing, but just going back to the WATSONs for a moment...
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCJ-SS4
William George BROWN, born 17 May 1843, baptised at St Lawrence (likely the temporary building for Christ Church St Lawrence) on 1 Nov 1843. His parents recorded as William BROWN and Matilda WATSON.
Akira, do you have that document? If so, what occupation did the Rev record for William please?
Cheers, JM (I have ummmm..... loads of info on various BROWN families in NSW long before the Gold Rushes)....
Hi JM
William's Occupation was Painter and Matilda's was Pauper in 'benevolent asylum'
Extract from the baptism
The information you have is correct for the marriage, he was born May 1843 and then Baptised in Nov 1843
Cheers
Akira
How on earth did Matilda end up as a pauper in the Benevolent Asylum?
These newspaper notices appear to be her family (ie. the family that arrived on the 'Susan')....
MARRIAGES 1856
By special license, by the Rev. Dr. Lang, on Thursday, the 3rd instant, Mr. John Alfred Williams, commission agent, Charlotte- place, Sydney, a native of Edinburgh, in Scotland, to Sarah Anne, youngest daughter of the Rev. John Watson, formerly of the county of Tyrone, Ireland.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/60250321
MARRIAGE 1860
On the 25th instant, by the Rev. W. McKee, at the residence of Alderman Watson, Mr. David Scotland, late of Clarence Town, to Rebecca, sixth daughter of the Rev. John Watson.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/60500826
DEATHS 1862
WATSON—At 177, Cumberland-street, on Saturday, the 9th August, at the residence of R. and S. Watson, Margaret, the beloved wife of the Rev. John Watson, aged 77 years. (This would be her sons Robert and Samuel)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/60479520
DEATH 1870
On the 15th instant, at the residence of his son Robert, 105, Prince-street, Rev. JOHN WATSON, officiating minister for about thirty years of the congregations of Ballinahatty and Gillygooly, parish of Drumragh, county Tyrone, Ireland, aged 97 years.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13210172
THE FRIENDS of Messrs. ROBERT and SAMUEL WATSON are respectfully invited to attend the Funeral of their late departed FATHER, the Rev. John Watson ; to move from 105, Prince-street, THIS AFTERNOON, at 3 o'clock.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13210181
FUNERAL 1893
THE FUNERAL of the late ROBERT WATSON will move from his residence, 115 Princes-street, Church-hill, THIS (Monday) AFTERNOON, at 1.15, for the Presbyterian Cemetery, Necropolis.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13923458
Alderman Robert WATSON
http://www.sydneyaldermen.com.au/alderman/robert-watson/
Also this notice posted earlier by Giblet which links Mary Jane WATSON/McELDOWNIE to Matilda BROWN.
SMH
Monday 16 November 1874
BROWN.—November 14, at the residence of his aunt, Mrs.McEldownie, Pitt-street South, John Brown, the second and beloved son of William and Matilda Brown, of East Dixon-street, aged 28 years.
So it seems that father John was a Church of Scotland minister in Ireland. I will add here that I think the ages of John and Margaret on the immigration record are probably fabricated as they would otherwise have been too old to qualify for assistance. John's approx year of birth on immigration was 1790 and at death 1773. Margaret's was 1793 on arrival and 1785 at death. You would need to find surviving records in Ireland to confirm what is correct.
John WATSON was ordained in 1807 so I think the earlier date of birth is more likely. You might find these interesting, John is mentioned in both:
200 years celebration
http://www.trinitypresbyterianchurchomagh.co.uk/trinitynews_issue39.pdf
Page 24
A talk on the history of the Gillygooley church by Andrew SCOTT
http://www.trinitypresbyterianchurchomagh.co.uk/trinitynews_issue40.pdf
The 'Susan' left England in December 1838 so the family would not have been in Ireland when the church lost its roof in 'the big wind'.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31723089
("Upwards of 200 lives were lost in Ireland alone by the hurricane.")
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108038604
Continued in next post because this is getting way too long.
Debra :)
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So, given the dates of the birth and baptism of Matilda's first son William George and the marriage shortly after (Nov or Dec), I wonder if she was estranged from her family during the pregnancy and was it a shotgun wedding? ;D
This resource online does not cover those earlier years:
http://www.sydneybenevolentasylum.com/index.php?page=what-was-the-sydney-benevolent-asylum
However the earlier records can be accessed but are not indexed. This shouldn't be a problem as you have a likely date range. It would be worthwhile following this up because you never know what little gems of information these records contain and they might mention William.
http://www.sydneybenevolentasylum.com/index.php?page=records-of-the-benevolent-asylum
JM might be able to advise you further on this as I haven't used any of these records so don't know what they are likely to contain.
Debra :)
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Hi Debra,
Wow, that is amazing work never knew that the latter suggested of estrangement or shame to the family on two counts (possible)
1) william being a possible ex convict and the associated shame of this at the time?
2) matilda being with child prior to being married?
The records provided and sourced from the susan (the chicken scratch) indicate John Watson was a Farmer and not a Minister, wouldnt this have been indicated?
On the records for the Susan?
What you have provided is the justification is it then possible, to assume that with the supporting evidence, there is also two Rev John Watson's in Australia?
In 1897 there was an article which a Rev John Watson (Possibly John Watson Jnr) was guilty of heresy in WA?
Cheers
Akira
P.S. Again amazing work!!
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Hi there,
I can confirm that the family search images arrived, and I have spoken at length with one of my elderly rellies re the practicalities of record keeping (a retired clergyman). The two family search images support the Early Church Records transcriptions, but are images of the parish registers. Rev McGarvie seems to have married the couple 4 November 1843, and then when writing up the SECOND register in preparation for transmitting the record, he has written 4 December 1843. I explain, the clergyman has likely had TWO registers on hand for the ceremony, one for the bride, groom and their witnesses to sign, and the other for his 'safe keeping' back up copy. The bride, the groom and two of their three witnesses have SIGNED and the third witness made his mark. All would have signed the certificate the clergyman hands to the bride (she was usually handed this as the womenfolk were the ones usually who were asked to prove their status).
Then sometime near the end of the quarter, the clergymen of all the denominations would need to write up their transmittal register and send it off for the NSW Supreme Court or at least the NSW Chaplains (depending on the era, and by 1840s it was NSW Supreme Court) to record the info in their registers.
The images that family search sent through to our OP do NOT have the autographs. They are all in the same hand, which I recognise as Rev McGarvie.
So it is likely just the one marriage, a Presbyterian service, and it was just days after the baby's Anglican baptism.
Now, I am aware (and I may have mentioned it at RChat previously), that there's parish records for Christ Church St Lawrence, that may NOT be showing up at NSW BDM's online index. The ones I am aware of are from both the era when there was just the temporary building, and also just prior to commencement of civil registration. I will need to find time to go back over some family history research I did on my own tree and Christ Church St Lawrence back in the 1970s to get the exact details, BUT there's "issues" to sort out still.
BUT I am NOW quite sure that there was just the one couple, William BROWN and Matilda WATSON in Sydney in that era.
Re The Benevolent Society and Matilda as a pauper .... Sometimes the records are detailed and sometimes scant. But it was a form of a laying in hospital, so it is likely that's where the baby was born in the May. A pauper is simply a person without visible means of support at that time, and Debra's suggestion re estrangement from her family makes good sense. I think the Mitchell Library in Sydney may have the best depth of records on the Benevolent Society.
As I could be away for perhaps almost a week, (going to Bundy Qld) may I please be excused until I have had time to get back and then search through my offline resources ;D
Many cheers, JM
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Hi,
Red post,
Many of the Rev'ds in NSW in the early to mid 19th century needed to be both farmers and clergymen, as there was not sufficient population to fund the clergyman's role.
Cheers, JM
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Fantastic work from Dundee
Cheers, JM
-
Remember also that you had to have a degree of 'usefulness' to immigrate. I think many of us have ancestors who were farmers/farm labourers when they immigrated but in reality wouldn't have known a cow if they fell over it!!
Debra :)
-
Hi there,
I can confirm that the family search images arrived, and I have spoken at length with one of my elderly rellies re the practicalities of record keeping (a retired clergyman). The two family search images support the Early Church Records transcriptions, but are images of the parish registers. Rev McGarvie seems to have married the couple 4 November 1843, and then when writing up the SECOND register in preparation for transmitting the record, he has written 4 December 1843. I explain, the clergyman has likely had TWO registers on hand for the ceremony, one for the bride, groom and their witnesses to sign, and the other for his 'safe keeping' back up copy. The bride, the groom and two of their three witnesses have SIGNED and the third witness made his mark. All would have signed the certificate the clergyman hands to the bride (she was usually handed this as the womenfolk were the ones usually who were asked to prove their status).
Then sometime near the end of the quarter, the clergymen of all the denominations would need to write up their transmittal register and send it off for the NSW Supreme Court or at least the NSW Chaplains (depending on the era, and by 1840s it was NSW Supreme Court) to record the info in their registers.
The images that family search sent through to our OP do NOT have the autographs. They are all in the same hand, which I recognise as Rev McGarvie.
So it is likely just the one marriage, a Presbyterian service, and it was just days after the baby's Anglican baptism.
Now, I am aware (and I may have mentioned it at RChat previously), that there's parish records for Christ Church St Lawrence, that may NOT be showing up at NSW BDM's online index. The ones I am aware of are from both the era when there was just the temporary building, and also just prior to commencement of civil registration. I will need to find time to go back over some family history research I did on my own tree and Christ Church St Lawrence back in the 1970s to get the exact details, BUT there's "issues" to sort out still.
BUT I am NOW quite sure that there was just the one couple, William BROWN and Matilda WATSON in Sydney in that era.
Re The Benevolent Society and Matilda as a pauper .... Sometimes the records are detailed and sometimes scant. But it was a form of a laying in hospital, so it is likely that's where the baby was born in the May. A pauper is simply a person without visible means of support at that time, and Debra's suggestion re estrangement from her family makes good sense. I think the Mitchell Library in Sydney may have the best depth of records on the Benevolent Society.
As I could be away for perhaps almost a week, (going to Bundy Qld) may I please be excused until I have had time to get back and then search through my offline resources ;D
Many cheers, JM
Hi JM,
Thanks for all of your help, enjoy the break still, absorbing the information just posted.
Enjoy your break
Cheers
Akira
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Remember also that you had to have a degree of 'usefulness' to immigrate. I think many of us have ancestors who were farmers/farm labourers when they immigrated but in reality wouldn't have known a cow if they fell over it!!
Debra :)
Hi Debra :),
That's quite funny :)
So with him being a minister/ rev and father listed as a "farmer" possible correlation his father being a minister also?
I'm still amazed at the fact he was a rev / minister that's just amazing!
Cheers
Akira
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/state-records-nsw/14620869401/in/photostream/
Hoping this is a link to Nov 1844 plan showing how near the Benevolent Asylum was to Christ Church St Lawrence ;D
Perhaps that gives a good reason for the Anglican baptism :)
(NSW SRO flickr updates each Friday, and today they released that 'photo' )
Cheers, JM
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/state-records-nsw/14620869401/in/photostream/
Hoping this is a link to Nov 1844 plan showing how near the Benevolent Asylum was to Christ Church St Lawrence ;D
Perhaps that gives a good reason for the Anglican baptism :)
(NSW SRO flickr updates each Friday, and today they released that 'photo' )
Cheers, JM
Hi JM,
Wasn't the benevolent asylum sponsored and managed via the anglican church?
I read that somewhere before can't find the reference, site has since moved.
Cheers
Akira
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Re the Benevolent Society.... it was not sponsored by any particular denomination, My various ancestors in Sydney in that era were Anglicans and Wesleyans and Roman Catholics. I can see where each of those families supported the Benevolent Society, and some of the Wesleyans sat on the board at various stages. The land where Christ Church St Lawrence's temporary building was donated by John Terry HUGHES and his family.
http://www.ccsl.org.au/regular-service-times?task=view&id=153
http://www.dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/hosking_john
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2549908
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/hindsight/the-benevolent/4552918
Gov Lachlan Macquarie's era (1810-1821) oversaw the development of the expansion of 'society' v 'penal colony' ..... many convicts were still alive after the expiration of their sentences, having children, growing old, needing charitable support. The Church of England was NOT the "Established Church", and other denominations were also recognised,(and in some cases funded, given land grants etc) in fact other faiths were recognised by Macquarie's governorship.
http://www0.health.nsw.gov.au/resources/aboutus/history/pdf/pt1medben.pdf VERY HELPFUL re the Benevolent Society.
Cheers, JM
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Hi all
So hoping that someone is still monitoring this topic. Very excited to be directed to this discussion by a fellow researcher! Akira, I had an email exchange with you ages ago about William BROWN and Matilda WATSON. It has been amazing reading through all 11 pages of post, I have been nodding my head and saying, "yes, that's what I found too!".
I have been searching for confirmation of Matilda's parents and had convinced myself that the Bounty Immigrants on the "Susan" were "it" but had to caution myself against making too many assumptions and making things "fit" when perhaps they didn't.
I have also been chasing the McEldownie connection and also the Rev John Watson story. I have obtained some interesting info from the Irish Presbyterian Church of Scotland about him which I am very happy to share. At the moment, I am away from home and don't have access to my research. I'll keep an eye on this discussion and if anyone is still "out there".
Cheers, Lisa Faulkner (descended from Mary Jane Sherar née Brown - William and Matilda's daughter)