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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Census Lookup and Resource Requests => Topic started by: Janet Mc on Sunday 29 June 14 12:22 BST (UK)
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This man married Sarah Ann TOMKINS in 1826 in Horsmonden, Kent
John Francis married Sarah Ann TOMPKINS (1806 H to 1837) on 10 Dec 1826 Horsmonden, Kent
Their children:
1) Stephen 1824
2) Mary Jane 24 Oct 1826 H. (never married) and died in Wellington 1843
3) Sarah Ann 9 Jan 1829 Offham, Kent. Married Stephen Swan 6 Jan 1848 Wellington . Died 17 Nov 1906 Carterton
4) William c 1829 married Emma Benge 24 Dec 1854 St James, Well. Died 21 Nov 1871 Hutt
5) John 1832 -74
and then after she died he married Frances PEARCE in 1836 in Boughton Monchelsea.
John FRANCIS Ba otp married Fanny PEARCE Sp otp by Banns on 21 Mar 1836 at Boughton Monchelsea.
Witnesses were James DAY and John BEECHING (prob parish clerk)
Their two children born in England were:
1) Elizabeth 13 Mar 1837 Maidstone, Kent (I don't know if this is chr. or birthdate)
2) Thomas Joshua c 1839/40 - he might have a registered birth.
Only two children were born before JF and FP migrated to NZ with 5 children of Sarah Ann + two of their own.
His death certificate in NZ in 12 July 1872 said he was 73. So I am looking for a birth date of c 1799 in Kent area including these towns above + Marden...
Thank you for any help in finding possible chr. for John FRANCIS and also for his son, Thomas Joshua
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Familysearch gives four possibles for John Francis' christening:
John Francis christening: 12 March 1797 Bilsington, Kent,
father: James, mother: Philadelphia
John Francis christening: 11 February 1798 Penshurst, Kent,
father: George Francis, mother: Jane
John Francis christening: 11 March 1801 Ruckinge, Kent, England
father: John Francis, mother: Elizabeth
John Frances christening: 3 July 1803 Lamberhurst,Kent,
father: Thos. Frances, mother: Elizabeth
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There's a Joshua Francis birth registered in June quarter 1839,
ref. North Aylesford, vol 5, page 352.
but no Thomas Joshua or Joshua Thomas :-\
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I found a Thomas JAMES in May 1840 for Maidstone/Marden - with correct parents. I think that is the one.
Trying to decide whether ordering it will help me find any information - prob. not.
Anyone got any more details for this?
Thank you
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I'm hoping that someone has access to a Kent baptisms cd and can find me more baptisms. None of those 4 is exactly right - that of course assumes that his 'age at death' is correct. I'm looking for a birth between 12 July 1798 and 11 July 1799. (I think that's right - on his death of 12 July 1872 he was '73').
I will go looking for other children of some of those possible JF parents.
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- that of course assumes that his 'age at death' is correct.
I'm looking for a birth between 12 July 1798 and 11 July 1799. (I think that's right - on his death of 12 July 1872 he was '73').
Have you limited your search for a birth on the assumption that the age at death was correct; but who gave this information ? A relative, a nurse, a neighbour ? Ages on death certificates can be unreliable and are only as accurate as the memory or knowledge of the informant.
So, any of the four in reply #1 could well be him, or none of them, depending on the accuracy of his age at death.
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So, any of the four in reply #1 could well be him, or none of them,
This one might be worth following up, being roughly in the area of the Kent towns/villages named in your OP.
John Francis christening: 11 February 1798 Penshurst, Kent,
father: George Francis, mother: Jane
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Just found JF's will but no clues. Now know he and his wife were illiterate.
Will have to wait and hope that the day he died the clerk was especially thorough. Otherwise it is a dead end.
The Penshurst family had at least 10 children. No JF's marrying in Penshurst in correct time -this would eliminate him - but plenty if other areas so I'll have to see if any of them close to Penshurst. I'll put this down until I get the death print out.
Thanks
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Not the Lamberhurst family
http://hortonpallister.awardspace.com/f-2-2-hannah%20fry.php
That John married a Hannah Fry and continued to live in area.
* Got in contact with NZ cemetery and discovered that John FRANCIS died in logging accident on 12 July 1872. Buried St James church, Lower Hutt (Wellington). Unfort. no gravestone and only record isn't an original - typed up - and they weren't careful and mistyped his son's name (and sex) and also put his age at death as 95 - highly unlikely. Could be 65 (giving a birth of c 1805) which would match his stated age on board the ship. Still waiting for his death certificate - might help (or not).
Guessing that there are more JF births in Kent than just those on Family Search. Anyone out there on findmypast ...kent history group ...? Unfortunately, Kent doesn't seem to have the wonderful resource that the Sussex Family History Group supplies (and at a decent price)
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very sad - no clues on death certificate OR will! Death certificate after coroner's report said he was 73 - that might be accurate.
Anyone else found any other John Francis births for Kent (marden, Horsmonden, Goudhurst areas) for 1798 -1806?
Of the four possible on family search - John Francis christening: 12 March 1797 Bilsington, Kent,
father: James, mother: Philadelphia
John Francis christening: 11 February 1798 Penshurst, Kent,
father: George Francis, mother: Jane
John Francis christening: 11 March 1801 Ruckinge, Kent, England
father: John Francis, mother: Elizabeth
John Frances christening: 3 July 1803 Lamberhurst,Kent,
father: Thos. Frances, mother: Elizabeth
Eliminated first (too early, distance) andLamberhurst - see previous post. Will now and see if the Penshurst John married anyone else ...
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I may have eliminated 2 more JOhn Francis births but unfortunately the burial records on Family Search didn't have any more details than name, date and place - i.e. no parents, age.
If someone has access to these burials and can look for more details to confirm, that would be fantastic.
John Francis christening: 11 February 1798 Penshurst, Kent,
father: George Francis, mother: Jane
Is the JF who was buried in June 1799 this child? No age or parents mentioned.
George FRANCIS married Jane ?
Their children christened in Penshurst, Kent
1. Harriet 1797 buried 16 May 1797 (again no age or parents listed so I think that increase the chance that JF was the one buried at about 15 months)
2. John 1798 - possibly buried in June 1799 Penshurst
3. Sarah 1800
4. William 1802
5. David 1804
6. George 1807
7. Jane 1810
8. James 1813
9. Harriet 1817
10. Elizabeth 1820
John Francis christening: 11 March 1801 Ruckinge, Kent, England
father: John Francis, mother: Elizabeth
Looks like father died a month before JF’s christening and then JF junior died in August 1801. But no confirmation because no age or parents listed.
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This is the one possibility that is still standing. Bilsington is 26 miles from Horsmonden where a John Francis married Sarah Ann Tompkins in 1825. I have no idea if there is a marriage register with more details that might help us.
1784 12 October FRANCIS James Philadelphia Venner Kingsnorth West Ashford
https://www.woodchurchancestry.org.uk/midkentmarriages/results.php
Children christened in Bilsington
1. Philadelphia 13 May 1787
2. Wiliam 24 April 1789
3. Mary 16 April 1791
4. James 20 Jan 1793
5. Caroline 23 Nov 1794
6. John 12 Mar 1797
7. Thomas 19 Jan 1800
8. Elizabeth 14 Oct 1804
9. Sarah 1 April 1808
Of course - my John Francis might be none of the possible 4 in Kent. There might be other JF's born in Kent in the time period c 1796-1802 or he might not have been from Kent (fairly unlikely with both marriages in Kent).
Any help appreciated. Does anyone know what happened to John FRANCIS of Bilsington?
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John Francis burial 6 jun 1799, St John the Baptist, Penshurst. age 70
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so the Penshurst one is back in play. Okay - I'll work away at that one.
Thank you. It is so helpful when they put ages on the registry.
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George Francis m Jane Anscombe. 16 Nov 1796, St John the Baptist, Penshurst.
Witnesses John Allison, James Jenner.
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"John Francis married Sarah Ann TOMPKINS (1806 H to 1837) on 10 Dec 1826 Horsmonden, Kent"
"and then after she died he married Frances PEARCE in 1836 in Boughton Monchelsea."
"John FRANCIS Ba otp married Fanny PEARCE Sp otp by Banns on 21 Mar 1836 at Boughton Monchelsea."
JF could'nt have been Ba otp if he was married before to Sarah.
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John definitely wasn't a bachelor at his 1836 wedding because his elder children from previous marriage went with him on the William Bentinck to Wellington NZ in 1841.
A lot of registers get details wrong probably because they weren't concentrating or wrote them up later or didn't ask the right questions ...
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So far with the Penshurst family I have found:
George FRANCIS married Jane Anscome 16 Nov 1796 Penshurst Witnesses John Allison, James Jenner.
Their children christened in Penshurst, Kent
1. Harriet 25 Jan 1797 buried 16 May 1797
2. John 11 Feb 1798 - I still don't know if he is 'my' John who later married Sarah Ann Tomkins (1825) and then Frances Pearce (1836).
3. Sarah 4 May 1800. Married Jesse Weddle 4thQ 1844 Tonbridge. . In 1851 they’re living in Tunbridge.
4. William 28 Mar 1802. Likely married mary Young 28 Nov1824 P
5. David 10 Jun 1804. 1851 census, 45 unmarried living Walter’s Green, Penshurst, ag labourer. 1861 he’s a carter at Delvedeer Farm, Frant, still unmarried and serving the Weddel family. 1871 living in Tunbridge Wells with mother’s relatives (surnamed Anscombe) and he is labourer and ?widowed 67 year old lodger. Died 1Q 1879 aged 74 (Tunbridge). Can’t find a marriage on Free BMD
6. George 29 Mar 1807
7. Jane 15 April 1810
8. James 14 Mar 1813
9. Harriet 6 April 1817. Did she marry Stephen Parkhurst on 21 June 1832 Sevenoaks?
10. Elizabeth 13 Feb 1820
11. Mary Ann 1 Sept 1822. Did she marry Joseph Frederic Heath on 15 Sept 1844
In 1841 is GF living in an institution in Chiddingstone? (only 4 miles from Penshurst)
Name: George Francis
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1851
Event Place: Tunbridge, Kent, England
Registration District: Tunbridge
Residence Note: High Street
Gender: Male
Age: 78
Marital Status: Widower
Occupation: Labourer In General
Relationship to Head of Household: Father In Law
Birth Year (Estimated): 1773
Birthplace: Penshurst, Kent
Page Number: 29
Registration Number: HO107
Piece/Folio: 1614 / 258
Affiliate Record Type: Household
Household
Role
Sex
Age
Birthplace
Jesse Widdle
Head
Male
40
Hawkhurst, Kent
Sarah Widdle
Wife
Female
50
Penshurst, Kent
Jesse Widdle
Son
Male
10
Frant, Sussex
George Francis
Father In Law
Male
78
Penshurst, Kent
Henry Francis
Lodger
Male
22
Speldhurst, Kent
Jane Francis
Niece
Female
16
Speldhurst, Kent
Did George die between 1851 -1861?
Most likely christening for Jane Aynscombe is 29 Nov 1778 Chiddingstone, Kent (4 miles from Penshurst)
John Aynscombe married Ann ?
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The manifest for Lord William Bentinck in 1841 says "John 35 Agricultural Labourer", which would make him born around 1806. Maybe this is him...
John Francis. born 23 Mar 1805, baptised 14 Apr 1805, Maidstone, Kent.
father John, mother Philadelphia.
John Francis m Philadelphia Osborne. 22 Apr 1804, All Saints, Maidstone, Kent.
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I'm getting confused with John Francis now, are you sure that the burial you have is the same person as the records say John M Francis, if it's right what does the "M" stand for. Also on the manifest list of
Lord William Bentinck he has 6 children plus 1 that died at sea but on the New Zealand, Archives emigration register there are only 2 children, Jas Swan Francis and Mary Francis.
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It is always difficult isn't it?
John Francis' death registration says he was 73 at his death in 1872 (which gives us a c 1799 date) but the age on board ship gives a c 1804/5 date.
The question is - which do you regard as the more accurate? I have generally found the death registry ones better. They're more official.
I can think of many reasons why ship board ones were less accurate - I imagine they were in a long line and children were crying ... I have noticed that women who should be listed as older often give a much younger age on board ship. I am not surprised that JF might say he was 35 (it sounds better than 40 when you're going around the world and want to be on that ship...).
One of the difficulties is that of all the possible parents - none of them are both among the names of their children e.g. no Philadelphia's in the next generation.
I'm basing things on probabilities - i.e. that since both his marriages were in Kent that he was born there.
Unfortunately, he has too common a name - and he died 3 years too early and so his parents weren't listed on his NZ death certificate.
I may never know but I'm working on eliminating possibilities and getting to the most likely. At the moment that is the Penshurst family until someone proves that that JF died or married someone else.
I have some newspaper articles for JF's death - he was crushed by a log - that tie him to Frances his wife and also her obituary ties them together again.
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Maybe worth a follow up...
John M. Francis
Born 14 Oct 1800 in Staffordshire, England, United Kingdommap
Son of [father unknown] and [mother unknown]
[sibling(s) unknown]
Husband of Frances (Pearce) Francis — married [date unknown] [location unknown]
Husband of Sarah Ann (Tomkin) Francis — married [date unknown] [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Father of Julia (Francis) Benge
Died 12 Jul 1872 in Lower Hutt, Wellington, New Zealand
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Yes, that is on some people's sites but there is no proof listed by anyone. I think they simply wanted an 1800 date.
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OK, I'm still on the case, let me run this past you.
You have a Stephen b 1824 as on of John and Sarah's children, this is before they were married in 1826. On the manifest of Lord William Bentinck there is Francis, Stephen Swan age 21, this suggests to me that Sarah was either married before to a Swan or that was her maiden name and Stephen was illegitimate. There is also Jon Swan Francis b 1823. I have studied the manifest thoroughly and various transcripts and have no reason to think it is incorrect. What are your thoughts?
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Those Swan's are rather confusing. One of the Francis daughters, later married Stephen Swan. It looks like the Francis family was escorting them out to NZ. Was this because they were orphans or joining family already in NZ? Were the Swan family relatives of John Francis?
This thought has never occurred to me. I'm going to see if a 'female Francis' married male Swan in the between 1810-19.
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I think all the Swann's are siblings but I can't connect them to the name Francis, Thompkins or Pearce.
There are a family of Swans born in the Maidstone area...
Stephen Swan. 1817.
John Swan. 1820.
James Swan. 1822.
Frances Swan. 1824. All born Marden, Kent. to Thomas Swan and Frances Swan.
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It would have been great if it turned out the mysterious Swan/n family were relatives. That might have helped us work out which John Francis was the correct one.
I think that this is the correct Swan family - the Marden one.
This list seems to have 3 siblings - Stephen, James and Frances on board (Stephen's age is a 3 years off but the other two are correct).
I guess my questions are - when did their parent die? i.e. were they orphans and perhaps sent to find a new life.
* What about their sibling - John - had he died or married?
I have two sets of ancestors on this one ship - John and Catherine PHILPS. Their 14 year old son. Henry married Elizabeth Francis - only 3 when she first met him.
https://www.geni.com/projects/New-Zealand-Settler-Ships-Lord-William-Bentinck-1841/14311
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He appears to be with them...
Jon SWAN FRANCIS trade or calling before emigrating Agriculture Labourer age 18.
I assume you have seen this...
http://www.lynly.gen.nz/hufrancispearceabout1837england.pdf
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yes. I had seen the long pdf document. Thank you
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Maybe the marriage for Thomas and Frances Swan and Frances's death, dates fit.
Thomas Swan m Frances Brown. 23 Apr 1815, Marden, Kent.
SWAN, FRANCES 45
GRO Reference: 1840 M Quarter in MAIDSTONE Volume 05 Page 235
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Maybe relevant or not but found this on another site....
"Frances Pearce was born between 1810-15 in Marden and may have been married there in 1836 to John FRANCIS (or in Maidstone)."
Follow up search found...
Frances Pearce. baptised 13 Jun 1815, Maidstone, Kent. father Francis Pearce, mother Rebecca.
Francis Pearce m Rebecca Cox. 22 Feb 1792, Marden, Kent.
So if Frances Swan died in 1840, John and Frances may have adopted their children and taken them to NZ in 1841.
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Yes, Frances Francis' death certificate say that her parents were Francis Pierce and Rebecca Cox. Which then means that her son Richard was born to X when she was single. She married John Francis 21 Mar 1836 • Broughton-Monchelsea, Maidstone, Kent.
As for the Swan family. I doubt they were adopted - not with two children already 18 and 21. In those days they probably simply escorted the 4 children to NZ - either to start a new life (if both parents were dead) or to join their father or other family if perhaps he'd gone ahead at the death of his wife to prepare the way for them.
I have an ancestor who left his infant son in Scotland for about 4 years while he migrated to Australia after the death of his wife. He remarried and started antoher family and then someone escorted his first son to Australia and he joined the family.
Let's see what happened to Thomas Swan - their father. I'll look for him in NZ.
I had hoped they might be relatives but you haven't found any links. Relatives would help us prove which John Francis is mine or another link of proof for Frances Pearce.
Thank you for all your help.
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It's a pity that they left before the 1841 census, that wpould of helped.
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yes, you have no idea how many times I wish that ship had been delayed. Finding the John PHILPS (misspelled as Phillips on board the William Bentinck) family was a historical breakthrough and only because a jounalist posted 9 letters written by them and their fellow immigrants. But I've never found anything on his wife because they avoided the 1841 census and were married in c 1826 and I can't find the wedding anywhere. Only know she was Catherine Turner. She also died before the magic 1875 date in NZ where they began to list parent's names (including mother's maiden name).
John Francis died 2 years too early and very early because he was crushed by a log. Why wasn't he called Melchizadek or something better than John Francis.
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Not Turner but PHILPS is not a common name.
John PHILPS m Catharine GIBBY. 29 Oct 1827, St Andrew, Narberth, Pembrokeshire.
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Forget all that rubbish I put in the last post, must have got side tracked, I'll stick with Francis, Pearce and Swan.
You said one of the children married a Swan in NZ was that Stephen Swan and Sarah Ann Francis if so it looks like Stephens mother may have died November 30, 1827 age 31 and not 1940.
Also I'm tuning up some interesting info which you may or may not have. Sarah Ann Francis maybe half sister of Elizabeth Philps daughter of John M. Francis and Frances Francis. Elizabeth b.March 13, 1837, Maidstone, Kent, died May 6, 1913, Feilding, Manawatu District, Manawatu-Wanganui, New Zealand. The only prob I can see with this is that it goes back to John M. Francis, b. 1800, Staffordshire which you have already rejected.
Hi Ho another day tomorrow ;D
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Yes, good idea to stick with John Francis. Yes, I have all the information about Elizabeth FRANCIS and Henry PHILPS ... and after they arrived in NZ.
I have asked people why they've gone with the JF 1800 Staffordshire but there is no logical reason that anyone has given. I'm sticking with JF born in Kent unless anyone can prove otherwise since both his marriages were there.
I still like the Penshurst family, parents George FRANCIS and Jane Anscombe/Aynscomb as a good possibility. Timing fits the death certificate (or close) + distance is 14 miles from first marriage spot. What I need to prove is what happened to their son JOHN christened 11 Feb 1798.
The other three Kent births - 2 were dismissed because died or were married and died in the same area. The third was 50+ miles from marriage place.
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Did George or Jane leave a will that mentions John? Did any of his siblings go to NZ as far as you know.
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I haven't yet pushed on with the George/Jane Francis family.
I am much more familiar with looking things up in Sussex - they have a marvelous membership and access to wills ...
I can look today and see if any of the sons of George/Jane migrated ...
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I am going back to tackling this man again.
If the ship reference to JF being 35 is correct - then he was born 1805/6
John FRANCIS married Philadelphia Osbourne 22 April 1804 All Saints, Maidstone
Their children christened in Maidstone:
1. John 14 April 1805 (birth 23 March)
2. James 1 Dec 1806 and buried 20 May 1807 All Saints
3. Ann Maria 25 Dec 1807 - buried 8 Dec 1808 All Saints
4. Sarah 15 Oct 1809
5. Mary Anne 10 Sept 1815
6. Frances Maria 18 April 1818
Were this John's parents also John Francis?
Were his parents
John Francis married Mary Martin - 11 November 1780 and is the burial in 1811 in Maidstone this John Francis 30 January 1811
Possible children from marriages around the same time in Maidstone:
1798 31 May FRANCIS Elizabeth John Rhodes Maidstone (All Saints) Maidstone
1800 12 August FRANCIS James Catherine Broad Maidstone (All Saints) Maidstone
1804 19 October FRANCIS Ann Edward Gavens Maidstone (All Saints) Maidstone
1804 22 April FRANCIS John Philadelphia Osborne Maidstone (All Saints) Maidstone
1805 19 August FRANCIS Catherine John Crowhurst Maidstone (All Saints) Maidstone
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On the 1841 census John Francis said he was born in county but in 1851 he says he was born in Colchester ???
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This John Francis was a fishmonger and appears in this tree
https://www.geocities.ws/jillycoles/francisjohn.html
It doesn't look like she knows what happened to John junior. He became a freeman of Maidstone in 1826
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~mrawson/genealogy/freemen.html
Added: It looks as though John junior is a customs officer in Stepney in 1951