RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Wigtownshire => Topic started by: Joycie on Sunday 22 June 14 17:33 BST (UK)
-
I'm looking for a piece of information about my 3xgreat-grandmother, Jane Townsley. She appears in the 1841 census in Broompark, Old Luce, Wigtownshire, Scotland-
John Townsley, 47 born Ireland, Metal Caster
Rachel Townsley, 46 born Ireland
Jane Townsley, 28 born Ireland
Elizabeth Townsley, 26 born Ireland
John Townsley, 22 born Ireland, Blacksmith
Ann Townsley, 20 born Ireland
Charles Townsley, 18, born Ireland, Apprentice Blacksmith
Rachael Townsley, 15, born Ireland
Agnes Townsley, 11, born Ireland
Helen Townsley, 8 born Ireland
Easter Townsley, 5 born Ireland
William Campbell, 29, born Ireland, Tinsmith
John Campbell, 23, born Ireland, Tinsmith
Stewart Campbell, 6, born Wigtownshire, Scotland
Rachel Townsley, 5 born Wigtownshire, Scotland
So, a strong Irish connection, then :) I also know that they were a traveller family and I have come across them travelling around the south of Scotland, specifically in Wigtownshire, Kirkcudbrightshire, Ayrshire and Argyle.
Jane married a William Mills (born about 1829 in Ireland- Tinsmith) in Leswalt, Wigtownshire, Scotland on 13th September 1849. She was about 36, he was about 20. Yes, an age difference, but this continues throughout the following censuses. Now, the specific piece of information I'd like to find out. Was Jane Townsley married before? On Ancestry in the Irish Records Extraction Database I found a marriage between a Jane Townsley and Stewart Campbell on 4th July 1833 at Kilrea, Co. Londonderry. Is there any way of finding out if this is the same Jane Townsley?
Any advice much appreciated!
Joycie
-
If you have a death certificate it should list if she was married before the name of first husband should be on it ..A tree on Ancestry has a death for this Jane in 1876 do you have a marriage in 1849 for Jane as it should say if she was widower or spinster
-
Hi Rosie17, thanks for your quick reply. The death registration doesn't say anything about her being married before. The man she married in Leswalt, Scotland in 1849 (William Mills) left her/ran away/disappeared in the late 1860's but that's another story! The Old Parish Record of Jane's marriage to William Mills is very factual and brief and again, doesn't mention anything about her being married before. This traveller family are certainly very elusive!
Joycie
-
Very hard to find especially with the name Townsley they are all over the country ;D ;D
-
Hi Joycie,
My 3xGr Grandmother was Rachel Townsley that married Robert Kennedy.
I believe that Rachel and Jane were sisters. I need to do more research on the Townsley family, and like the Kennedy's it's proving difficult due to them moving continuously. on Rachel's death certificate, it gave her parents as John Townsley and Rachel Ferguson, which I don't think agrees with the info on Jane's death certificate. So that raises another question as there are two Rachel's mentioned in the 1841 census. Did John re-marry, or is my Rachel the daughter of John (the son in 1841 census). So many questions to answer.
Robert
-
According to an online tree (to be treated with caution)...
Elizabeth Townsley (born c1815 Ireland, died 1874 Scotland) married William Campbell & had Stewart, Charles, Rachel, Agnes.
Elizabeth's parents-
John Townsley m. Rachel
1. Jane (c1813-1876) m.(1849) William Mills...
2. Elizabeth (see above)
3. John
4. Ann
5. Charles
6. Rachel m. Robert Kennedy...
7. Agnes
8. Helen
9. Easter
-
Hello!
I just ran across your post, hope you are still following this thread. In my genealogy journey I have run across the Townsley/Campbell families in this same 1841 census. Ann Townsley married John Campbell Nov 10, 1841 in Mochrum, Wigtown, Scotland. They had Esther Anne in 1845 and William John in 1850 (there is question about the date, 1850 is according to his death certificate), both of them in Scotland. They all show up in the 1851 census in Scotland. They had a 3rd child, Agnes Jane Campbell that was born, as far as I know, in Montreal Quebec between 1851-1852. Agnes was my gr-gr-grandmother. I am yet to find her birth record to confirm date and place.
I would love to correspond and find out more about the rest of the family...maybe in doing so I'd find out more about their emigration from Ireland (both John Campbell and Anne Townsley apparently were born in Ireland) and then from Scotland to Canada. You mentioned they were a "travelling" family...maybe you could expand on that for me...I've never heard that terminology before.
Hope to hear from you soon!
Bonnie Madsen
-
Hi Bonnie,
My Gr Gr Grandmother, was Rachel Townsley who married Robert Kennedy. The term "Travelling Family" refers to Scottish Gypsies. My Gr Gr Grandfather Robert Kennedy's line can be traced back another couple of generations and are well known in the Scottish Gypsy circles. The name Townsley is also a common name among Scottish Gypsies and it is known that many Scottish Gypsy families came over from Ireland.
The family lines can be difficult to trace as they tended to change details about birth in census records. Unfortunately, I've not found any records for Rachel and Ann's father after 1841.
Robert
-
Hi Robert,
Thanks for your reply! Do you know if any of the rest of the Townsley family left Scotland for Canada around 1851-1852? This idea of "Travelling family" is new to me...I had no idea that existed. So were they thought of as "lower class" or were they just regular ol' folks? I'm having a heck of a time trying to locate any birth records for my gr-gr-grandmother Agnes Jane Campbell...I believe she was born in Montreal, but not sure if it was 1851 or 1852. The family was still in Scotland for the 1851 census, so it would have to have been after that. Would love to hear more about the family and learn more about their lives. Thanks, Bonnie
-
I've just come across this old post whilst looking for something completely different - like you do! My ggg grandfather was John Campbell Townsley, born Mochrum 1819.
I have sent an e-mail Bonnie - I hope it reaches you after all this time :)
-
If anyone else is reading this thread - never give up!!! I have made contact with Bonnie and we've more research to do. Thankyou Rootschat ;D
-
Hi,
I know this is an old thread, I too have only stumbled come across it, I must have missed it in the past , as you do .
I am hoping some of you are still around.
I am pretty (99.9%) sure the " Easter" ( Esther) and Helen ( Ellen) in the1841 census came back to Ireland , as Ellen is my gg grandmother, and Esther her sister( or spelled "Easter" in that census) married my gg's brother ( the two sisters
married two brothers).
It's probably why you haven't been able to find these two siblings - where I have been trying to do the complete opposite for the past 20 years- I've been trying for years to find exactly where from in Scotland ,when my gg grannie Ellen, sister Esther and her father John came from in Scotland before they came into Ireland.
I've never been able to find John their father in Ireland, he's on both their marriage certs listed as their father, Metal Caster on my gg grannies cert, moulder on her sister's , which is another term for metal caster. I don't know if John came back to Ireland too with them or stayed
there in Scotland , or it was only the two sisters who came back by themsleves as he wasn't one of the witnesses on their certs, who knows.
Have any of you taken a DNA test and have it on either Myheritage or Ancestry sites? I am wondering if you have , and you are in my matches ( my DNA matches on the Townsley side of my family are a huge group, with many still today that belong to the travelling community in Scotland. Many of them are very closely linked through an Isabell/a townsely who was born around the early 1900s ) , many of my top matches on my townsley side are very closely related to eachother , ie immediate families half and full siblings, half , also 1st cousins marrying eachother , second cousins and so on, whilst the common link with me and them I know is through my gg grandmother Ellen's father , John ( and maybe Rachel , if she is the mother, there's no way to tell if she's the mum and I can't separate John 's side from Rachel's or any mother's side in my dna )
It's surprising to me they say in the census ( including their father John ) they are born in Ireland . My grandfather always said his paternal grandparents , Ellen , and her hubby emigrated from Scotland into Ireland. Although technically he didn't used to exactly use the word "born" , he used to say his grandparents "came into Ireland from Scotland" , but he meant emigrated from, born there in Scotland. (I knew my grandfather well.)
IF that census is to believed about their birthplaces , it takes my grandfather's side two more generations back that were born within Ireland, where my grandfather always thought his paternal grandparents to have come over from Scotland. My Irish grandfather (who was born and raised in the North of Ireland, as too both his parents, as too his children) was always so very proud of his Scottish heritage from his paternal side, he used to roll off the tongue, the numerous clans he belonged too , from his paternal grandparents ( ie Ellen and her hubby) , damned if I can remember the ones he used to say. If he was still alive today he really would be surprised his grandmother Ellen and g grandfather John said they were born in Ireland. I'd take the birth places in that 1841 census with huge caution, maybe they were born in Ireland, maybe they weren't , but I wouldn't use that 1841 birthplace as 100% set in stone ( not with this side of the family ) . Ellen and hubby when they married and raised their children, travelled a lot with the tinsmithing trade around the North of Ireland ( Ellen married a tinsmith in Ireland , their sons , including my grandfather's father who was also a tinsmith too.)
If you have your dna on either site mentioned and would like to find out if we are a match , private message me with your dna user name, I can search through my matches to see of you're amongst them , and I'll do the same ( giving you my DNA usernames on the two sites - although I've turned off my Ancestry DNA visibility over my stance with their new $$$ grabbing policies over shared matches , but I'll turn it back on temporary for any search, if any of you have dna only on Ancestry ).
Very Kind regards
Ps regarding Jane may have been in Kilrea for a time ( mentioned in the initial post ), it is very, very possible , as that's where my gg grannie Ellen was living at the time of her marriage,in the surrounding areas, she was living in vow in finvoy, which is near kilrea , then Gavargh where my g grandfather was born , all in the close areas.
I don't know how you can prove it is Jane on a first marriage though, unless she also had children from her first marriage and their decendants from that first marriage have taken a dna test, even then it would still be hard , no easy way is there with the Townsley family lol.
Very Kind regards
-
Hi Joycie,
My 3xGr Grandmother was Rachel Townsley that married Robert Kennedy.
I believe that Rachel and Jane were sisters. I need to do more research on the Townsley family, and like the Kennedy's it's proving difficult due to them moving continuously. on Rachel's death certificate, it gave her parents as John Townsley and Rachel Ferguson, which I don't think agrees with the info on Jane's death certificate. So that raises another question as there are two Rachel's mentioned in the 1841 census. Did John re-marry, or is my Rachel the daughter of John (the son in 1841 census). So many questions to answer.
Robert
Hi Robert,
I am currently going through some of my Townsley DNA matches to see if any of you are matching to myself, with no knowledge of knowing if any of you on this thread have your dna on the sites, - And one of my dna matches is a decendant the same Rachel you are from. ( there maybe more than one dna match from Rachel on there in all of my matches ( too big to go through each and everyone of all my matches , but this one has a tree, so was easily found amongst all my Townsley side matches )
This particular dna match of mine is coming down through their daughter , who was also named Rachel ( Rachel Kennedy born 1854 , died 1906 according to their tree).
My match has the parents of their and your Rachel b 1835 - as the oldest John and "private Ferguson" on her tree, whether her tree is correct on which John and which Rachel is her Rachel's parents I don't know, all that I know she is a genetic match to myself , and sharing with some of the ones I know have come from this Townsley family. It doesn't help you much determining which John was your Rachel's father in the household , except that I am confirming that you have right family and your Rachel is definitely ( gentically) linked to my gg grandmother Helen in the same household .
Very Kind Regards