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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Elizajb on Saturday 21 June 14 00:25 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
I was wondering if some of you would be kind enough to give me your opinions with regard to three photos I have put together.
The two photos on the left are of William Wilson as a young man in WW1. The part photo on the right is of a ship's crew, taken in WW2, uncaptioned. I know that this ship had a crewman by the name of William Wilson and I am wondering whether the man shown on the left of that photo could be William Wilson and whether he is the same William Wilson shown as a younger man in my WW1 photos.
Some unbiased opinions would be very helpful if you wouldn't mind. I have a copy of the full photo of the ship crewmen so will attach that to another message immediately following this.
Regards Eliza.
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Here is the full crew photo showing my subject third from right.
Regards Eliza
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Hi Eliza, he seems to be the right age and there are a lot of similarities. The ears for example, and the mouth, if you allow for ageing :).
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Thanks Billiegirl,
I think so too - the nose also seems quite similar and the set of the eyebrows. Difficult to say fully as the photo of the crew gives a view of him which would need to be better.
I know that even if the balance of probablility leans towards them appearing to be the same person, it isn't enough to decide that it definitely is him for my records, but as I am at a dead end for his fate after a long period of searching, any clue is a clue worth looking at.
I'm also 'too close' to the problem if you know what I mean. There's always a danger of seeing something one wants to see, rather than what may actually be there when personally involved. Hence my request for the objective views of others who have no personal tie to him.
Thanks for you input,
Regards Eliza.
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A relative of mine served in WW 1 and WW 2 and his records are together. Do you have his service number and we might be able to look at his records for WW1 to see if there is a clue. I will have a look if you give me his service number and next of kin Thanks Lynette
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Hi Lyn,
Have sent pm.
Regards Eliza.
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I think you may have a match there.
Carol
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Unbiased I also think his nose, eyebrows and ears are very similar
Cas
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It's a yes from me, too!!
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Thanks very much indeed everyone, that's very encouraging, I thought maybe I was 'seeing things'.
Not quite sure where I go from here, having exhausted most avenues that have previously been suggested or I have thought of, to trace him. I drag him out of my records and dust him off periodically when I think of something else to look for.
In fact, this photo had been sitting on my computer for a little bit, before I decide to re-look at it.
I suppose we all have these elusive characters who dodge detection despite our best efforts.
It's good to have the objective views of others, so helpful, thankyou.
Regards Eliza.
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Would love to know what it says on his hat! CLUE!
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Hi Cas,
Very good point. I've had a dig around but don't really know what would have been written on the hat. The words are unreadable and when I search for other images of similar hats, I can see that the wording varies as sometimes it's a long word and sometimes not.
I don't know if it refers to the ship the seaman is assigned to, his unit, or even his name.
I'll have another go at it.
Regards Eliza.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailor_cap
Maybe of interest
Cas
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Hi Cas,
That's very useful thankyou and explains why the wording on the hats looked to be different in different photos. Many of them seem to be the name of the ship etc.
I had googled sailors' uniforms, but didn't think of just sailors' hats.
Ta very much.
Regards Eliza.
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Sorry everyone - I don't think it is the same man.
I think lips in the last photo are fuller, ears are flatter to the head and longer. WW1 ears are quite protruding and high set. I also don't think there is very much difference in ages between the WW1 and WW2 man. (there is a fairly large window when all photos may have been taken). Sadly, no chin showing on WW2 man to see if he has a dimple. :) I realise angles photos were taken are different, but still think there are differences between the two men.
Is the first chap army and the second chap navy? Is that likely? (the folks on the Armed Forces boards will probably be able to date the first photo and comment on the change between army in WW1 to navy in WW2).
Having said that, I also see some similarities such as face shape and nose - might the WW2 chap be related to WW1 chap? :-\
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Hi Ruskie,
Food for thought, some valid points - I did wonder about the age, whether the crewman could even be the age I would expect William to be in WW2, but with the photo not being close up enough, I wasn't sure.
They couldn't be related, so if it was not William he would be someone else entirely.
There were 34 men in the crew with an age variation of 17-71.
In the case of William, it is possible that he could have served during WW2 at sea, as he went to sea in 1927. That's partly the reason I was looking at this photo after I found a William Wilson in the crewlist. Such a common name though, that there's no way really of knowing whether he is any of the many William Wilsons I have found in different crewlists.
However, he may have to go 'back in the drawer' for a while.
Thanks for balancing my thinking.
Regards Eliza.
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Hi Eliza, have you thought of getting this moved to the War section? Perhaps someone might recognise the sailor and you may be able to confirm/discount him this way before you put him back in the drawer.
Best of luck, Billiegirl :)
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Mmmm, I've been mulling that over Billiegirl. After looking at the crew photo again with Ruskie's points in mind though, I think he may be right.
The ears of the crewman do look a little longer and my William and the crewlist William would be 55 years old. I think the chap in the crew photo probably doesn't really look that old.
I'll mull it over a bit more.
Regards Eliza.
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I took the liberty of asking Ken, one of the Armed Forces experts about these pictures. The following is part of his reply:
There is a big problem here in that we do not know the time difference. People are talking about WW2, but that is most definitely when the last photograph was NOT taken, as during WW2 the tallies on the men's hats switched to just HMS. The ship name was not shown for the duration.
I would say the chap you have identified in the last photo is definitely younger than 55 years old. I would put him in his 30s at the oldest.
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If the second photo is earlier than originally thought then it still could be him as he wouldn't have been 55...and more likely to be in his 30s.
I still think it's the same man.
Carol
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If the second photo is earlier than originally thought then it still could be him as he wouldn't have been 55...and more likely to be in his 30s.
Carol
Yes, I think that was what Ken meant regarding not knowing the time difference. We would need to fathom the minimum and maximum time difference that there could be between photos to get some sort of timeline ....
I still think it's the same man.
Carol
Even with the sticky out short ears in one photo and the long flat ears in the other? ;D
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Yes, it looks the same to me....he also has the same cleft, the indent on the chin..which hit the nail on the head for me.
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Hi All,
Thanks again for your input. Debi I am referring to the man on the left, the one whose chin we cannot see, sorry if I haven't made that more clear.
I have a bit of a problem (of my own making I might add) now Ruskie. I have had the photo for a while, having saved it from a website "just in case" probably a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, I broke a cardinal rule and did not make a note of where I got it from, or bookmark the website, neither of which would trip me up these days.
I've spent some time over the past few hours trying to find it and where I may have picked it up from, but have had no luck.
I know the photo was taken on board a ship called the Prince David, which I think might have been a merchant ship commandeered for WW2 and is probably why I thought the photo was taken in WW2. The fact that I didn't save the source is a real nuisance but I am feeling doubtful of his identity because of the length of the ears as you pointed out Ruskie.
I'm probably just going round and round in circles in asking chatters to try and identify a man I don't know, at a time I can't be sure of, in a service I know nothing about. However, it has helped me clarify some things I hadn't thought of so thankyou all for that.
Regards Eliza.
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Aw never mind Eliza...It was worth a shot anyway...it could have worked out for you....you don't know where it could have led.
Carol
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Canadian National Steamship
CNSS Prince David (1930 - 1939)
HMCS Prince David (F89)
Armed Merchant Cruiser (1940 - 1943)
Landing Ship Infantry Medium (1943 - 1945)
see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Prince_David_(F89) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Prince_David_(F89))
Best regards
Rudolf
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Thanks Carol - it was worth a shot as you say. It has made me think a bit more laterally and everyone has answered my original question, that is, to give opinions on whether the faces in the photos could possibly, or not, be a match so thanks all for having a go.
It does appear the Prince David was a passenger ship prior to 1940, thanks for the link Rudolf, that's very interesting.
Regards Eliza.
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Interesting search Eliza - and a variety of opinions as you would expect.
Unsure if it has already been suggested on this thread (apologies if so) ....
Presumably you know that William served in both WW1 and WW2? Is there anything further you are looking for regarding William? For example are you hoping to find evidence of his service in WW2? Or were you just wondering if that was him in the photo?
If you need specific information about his service, it might be worth a new thread on the Armed Forces board (providing a link to this thread as there may be some cross over).
Best of luck with the search.
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There are ledgers sheets for 1910 1941 that you could look at www.bac-lac.gc.ca I am not sure about putting a link on click on the top of the page online research and click second world war click databases then there will be a list service files of Royal Canadian Navy 1910 -1941 ledger sheets and you can search by name a few William Wilson's show up Take Care Lynette
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Hi Lynette,
You clever thing.
I haven't found my William - but, at least your link has taken me to the site where I found the photo originally. Thankyou so much for that, it was annoying me that I hadn't kept a note.
I have attached a link to the website photo with its caption (just for interest sake), which also shows me why I thought it was WW2 - it is dated 1941.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0166u (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0166u)
In answer to your query Ruskie - no, I don't have any info which would make me think that William did serve in WW2 at all - in fact, I don't know if he was alive still at that time. He did serve in WW1 but later crewed on a ship to Halifax, Canada in 1929 and I haven't been able to trace him after that.
However, after finding a later Prince David crewlist which recorded amongst its number a William Wilson of the right age at the time of the list, I hunted for photos or documents which might show the man concerned. The photo I posted on here does not name the individuals, so I can't even say who my man of interest was, just noticed a similarity.
In 1941 my William would have been about 47 or 48 so probably still too old to be the man in the photo.
I think I'll try and find clues to his whereabouts (or death, if necessary) before I post any message on the military board as he may never served in WW2, I just don't know.
Thanks to everyone who has commented on my very foggy search and to Lynette for pointing me to where I found the photo to start with.
Regards Eliza
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P.S. I have sent an enquiry to the Library and Archives of Canada asking about where to write to for any possible further info on the photo.
Regards Eliza.