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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: jennywren001 on Thursday 19 June 14 14:24 BST (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
Some background...
James McKenzie married Jean Stott in Craig in 1844. I have Jean's OPR birth, their OPR marriage and both their DCs. I have them on the census (originals) from 51 to 81 the decade of their deaths. Of their seven children I have OPR birth for three and a birth certificate from 1867 for their youngest.
I am descended through their daughter Margaret Stott McKenzie (b.1850). She died in the Almshouse Brechin, a pauper, at the age of 34. Margaret's daughter Jane Ann McKenzie (b.1871) is my great grandmother. This whole tale is a bit short of husbands...
Back to James - I have him born about 1821 in Craig.This information is from the census as I cannot find a birth record for him. From his DC I have his mother as Susan Davidson listed as a hand loom weaver. (no relationship to any of the other Davidsons' who keep appearing in my tree) Also listed is James McKenzie - cattle dealer (reputed father).
From freecen I THINK I can see the three of them in 1841 - Susan at Marytown, Maryton, Angus, James Jnr at Hillhead of Bonnaton, Craig, Angus and James Snr West Side of Newgate, Arbroath, Angus. If that is Susan I'm at a loss as to who the Alexander Mitchell age 10 is - maybe just a helper with the loom? Although spookily enough Jean Stott's mother's father was an Alexander Mitchell.
I've looked for a birth record for James under both McKenzie and Davidson but maybe under the circumstances no baby was registered. I see a possible birth for Susan Davidson on Familysearch but for all I know there could have been another Susan Davidson born in Craig around the same time and she may not even be from Craig. I've nothing on the reputed father. (Can't find him or Susan in 51).
I'm just stuck. :-[
Jen
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Hi Jen
Not surprisingly, the Alexander Mitchell who shows as 10 yrs old with Susan in 1841, is down as her son in 1851. Susan is still in Maryton for 1851:
Susan Davidson, unmarried, 52, Pauper Retired Weaver b. Craig
Alexander Mitchell, son 20, Pauper Scholar b. Craig
Address: Marytown-Law
This entry is from FreeCen.
Monica :)
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A possible for Susan's birth in Craig, although birth year a few years out https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYNP-J7P
Monica
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Thanks Monica that 51 find confirms a Craig birth :) - gets me closer to accepting that couple on Familysearch as her parents but as you say a few years off. If she was born 1795 then she'd be about 36 when she had Alexander and in her mid 20's when she had James - so not out of the question.
Alexander's a little old to still be a scholar at 20 or maybe that was a euphemism for unemployed? I'll have a look for him in 61..just taken out a one month £1 sub at FindMyPast.
As you can imagine piecing this lot together has been a wee bit of a challenge.
Jen
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Jen, you need to plan to have a look at the Kirk Session minutes of Craig and possibly Maryton. The KSs normally devoted a lot of time and energy trying to root out sin in the form of fornication, and quite often you get information about the fathers of illegitimate children.
Unfortunately, though the KS minutes have been digitised, you can't view them online. You have to go in person to the National Archives Records of Scotland or one of the other archives that has access to the digitised versions.
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Hi Forfarian,
I do need to plan to look at the Kirk Session minutes to see if our Susan and partners get a mention. In fact this side of the family must feature in a number of Kirk Sessions - think I might need a week at a terminal so much 'sinning' going on in the Angus countryside.
Jen
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Mild excitement...
I went back and had a look at the James McKenzie cattle dealer in Arbroath on the 1841 census. He is with the Ellis family headed by Fletcher Ellis - I had assumed he was just a lodger never even gave the family a second thought. Well, just discovered a Fletcher Ellis married a Magdalene Davidson in 1817 at Craig. By searching for Fletcher on the 1851 census I found James still with the family as a lodger but now described as a flesher born Guthrie. Magdelen(e) is listed as being born 1794 - Craig.
I think this might be her?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYNP-J88
If it is she has a sister called Susan.
And this might be James?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYJC-FG6
Still need to read the Kirk session minutes though and see if there are more connections to be made. Got nowhere with finding Alexander Mitchell after 1851. Hope I've not put 2 and 2 together and made 5!
Jen
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Can see why you are mildly excited on James ;) Any joy post 1855 for him?
I too tried to find Alexander Mitchell post 1851. Closest I got was a later entry for an Alexander born in Craig a few years later, who showed as a school teacher. Not confident that Alexander was connected.
Let me find that entry again and I will post here just for info.
Monica
Added - from 1871, everyone down as born in Fordyce, except for Alexander Snr.:
Alex D D Mitchell 37 teacher b. Craig
Eliz Mitchell 31
Alex D D Mitchell 5
Eliz Mitchell 4
Jessie Craib Mitchell 2
William W Mitchell 1 Month
Address: No 55 Sandend, Fordyce, Banff
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A little hope here too...maybe ;D
The name of Davidson shows up in the surnames for the family above.
One month old William's entry here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYT7-2V8 with father Alexander showing as Alexander Deuchar Davidson Mitchell.
Adding...Young Elizabeth also here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYRW-9PB
Jessie here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYGV-W8D
Eldest Alexander https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY1M-LLK
Summary here www.bayanne.info/Shetland/getperson.php?personID=I347779&tree=ID1
Marriage https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT2T-329
Jen, not sure if correct Alexander, but the only one I can see past 1851.
Monica
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Can see a death for James McKenzie aged 72 in Arbroath, 1859, mother's maiden name Gibb (as per the maiden name in the OPR birth in Guthrie you wondered about)
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I also note the OPR Death record for a Susan Davidson 25/02/1854 in Montrose ... from memory some of the OPR death records I have from Montrose provide the age of the deceased which could be of use in helping to decide if it's 'your' Susan Davidson
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Hi Monica and Gali,
Thanks Gali a spending spree at SP - I've now got James, Magdelen, and Susan's death records. James died in the Arbroath infirmary and the matron signed :( he's listed as single and his parents are Alexander McKenzie - cattle dealer :) and Mary Gibb. That all ties in with him on the 51 census giving his place of birth as Guthrie.
Magdelen died 1862 parents James Davidson (farmer) and Mary Teviotdale - no surprise but good to confirm and I now know James was a farmer. Might have a hunt for their brother Alexander maybe he inherited the farm or more likely tenancy?
Susan oh la la...everyone on the page has their age and cause of death showing not Susan. She died on the 25th of February 1854 age 56 - so a birth date of 1797 as she would have been 57 in the August - two years out? No cause of death showing. Next to her name is written - lunatic. Interred Rosehill.
I've also downloaded the birth record for Susan Davidson born Craig 1795 not much info (no witnesses) and I can't read place of birth might be Pitamoors/Pitamows.
I'm now fairly confident that the Susan and James found on the 41 and 51 census are young James McKenzie's parents and that James Snr is lodging with Susan's sister Magdelan in Arbroath.
Monica that Alexander Mitchell you found he's a bit intriguing is he not - don't you just love all those names. I'll follow that up - but not today as I've got open garden next weekend and a shed load of work still to do.
Jen
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I've also downloaded the birth record for Susan Davidson born Craig 1795 not much info (no witnesses) and I can't read place of birth might be Pitamoors/Pitamows.
Pitarris? http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2508678 - click on the map to magnify it. It's right on the western extremity of the parish of Craig, next to Maryton.
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Thanks Forfarian it could well be - I think I'll ask for a rescan as the image is appalling. I've looked on an 1868 map but it's not named. If it is Pitarris then Susan must have spent her life a stone's throw from her birth place.
Monica - sorting papers and noticed James Jnr - on the 41 census - working for the Deuchars. Might end up with a genealogy study of the whole of Craig if I'm not careful....
Jen
edit
http://maps.nls.uk/view/74400150
think it might be here as 'Pitteres'
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http://maps.nls.uk/view/74400150
think it might be here as 'Pitteres'
Yes, that's it.
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Hope your Open Garden goes brilliantly ;)
Ann, wife of Charles Deuchar is a Davidson. Marriage 1817 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTRF-FJS
Charles Deuchar 50
Ann Deuchar 50
Magdalene Deuchar 15 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYNP-GLK
Charlotte Deuchar 10 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYNP-GLB
James McLernie (must be Mckenzie) 20 agr. lab.
Address: Hillhead Of Bonnaton, Craig
...and a possible from someone else's online research http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Davidson-3013
Further info here www.thepotters.ca/Genealogy/p49.htm#i100 and here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/S5PV-4T3
Monica
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Hi Monica,
I've got the 1890 dead cert for the Alexander Deucher Davidson Mitchell born Craig but he's not my Susan's boy- at least I don't think he is! Parents listed as William Mitchell 'railway contractor' and Susan Mitchell ms Davidson! He was the only Alexander Mitchell I could find on the census born at Craig (61,and 81 to add to your find in 71) and with those names I was sure it would turn out to be him...I wonder when the railway went through Montrose?
I think I need to start saving for a holiday in Scotland so I can sit with the Kirk Session minutes for about a week! 24 hours of torrential rain so no gardening today :(
Jen
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Why don't you think Alexander DD Mitchell is the right one, Jen? Susan Davidson was given as his mother on his death cert. You know Susan remained unmarried and had at least two illegitimate children: James McKenzie and Alexander Mitchell. William Mitchell is likely Alexander's reputed father you would think and by the time of Alexander Mitchell's death, his parents showed/reported as 'married' I am guessing from what you have.
Monica
PS: Sad about the rain...but good for the garden 8)
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Hi Monica - went to bed last night convinced it was the wrong Alexander and woke up this morning convince that it was the right one! Downloaded his 1864 MC but no further clues on that. His wife's mother's MS was Craib so that's where Jessie got her name.
OK on the 'it's him list':
1. Susan Davidson (although listed as Mrs Mitchell) is listed as his mother on DC and MC.
2. On the census he consistently puts down born in Craig.
3. On the 51 census, while living with Susan he's down as a scholar at age 20 - then turns out to be a teacher by 61 (dies a grocer).
4. I can't find another Alexander Mitchell born Craig on any census...
5. Family links with his middle names Davidson and Deucher (Susan's sister Ann is married to one)
The only thing that's a bit out is his age - 3 years younger from 61 census onwards - think I may have to live with that.
back to weeding...
Jen
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Hi,
I've interacted with you about an Alexander McKenzie on a different thread but thought I might not have made the following clear.
1) Alexander McKenzie married an Ann Greig in 1802 in Guthrie and was a "Cattle Dealer" (mentioned on many docs). They had children together until 1822. In 1841 census there is a 93 yr old Alexander McKenzie living w/ a 58 yr old Ann Greig and their grandson (Alexander Gibb). I think this Alex McKenzie is her father-in-law. She is listed in 1851 census as a widow (living w/ her daughter and family).
2) Their daughter Isobel McKenzie married an Alexander Gibb who is the child of David Gibb and Grace "Grizel" Greig. He also has a sister named Mary Gibb who is about the right age (see next). This Mary had a mother named Jean a paternal grandfather named James (note Alexander's paternal grandfather was also an Alexander - David's father so naming pattern holds).
I'm trying to connect these Grieg women but it's not easy so far.
3) There was an Alexander McKenzie who married a Mary Gibb around 1790 in Guthrie and they had two children (James and Jean - can find no others). Digging more into them now.
Hope this helps you w/ your James McKenzie.
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3) There was an Alexander McKenzie who married a Mary Gibb around 1790 in Guthrie and they had two children (James and Jean - can find no others). Digging more into them now.
I'm about 95% certain the James (1) born to Alexander MacKenzie and Mary Gibb is the father of James (2) Mackenzie born to Susan Davidson in 1821. James (1) died in 1859 - father listed as Alexander McKenzie (cattle dealer) and mother Mary (looks like Gibb) his sister Jane (married to a James Carrie) died in 1866 father listed as Alexander McKenzie (crofter) and mother Mary Gibb. I'm still not 100% convinced that Ann Greig didn't marry a man much older than herself and that is her husband and not her father in law with her on the census. I suspect David Gibb and Mary are siblings they are both living at Millfield and having children with partners Alexander MacKenzie and Mary Wyllie in 1788...
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Good Morning,
I agree with your comments but wish I could resolve the old Alexander McKenzie.
As for Gibb, you mention a David Gibb. I have one connected to my line of the family as the father of Alexander Gibb married to Alexander McKenzie and Ann Grieg's daughter Isobel. He was married to Grace Grizel Greig and had a sister Mary Gibb born in Roscobie in 1769. I was thinking this is the Mary Gibb who was the mother of your James Gibb. Since you mention one from "Millfield", am I wrong
I have Alexander McKenzie and Ann Greig's granddaughter Grace Murray McKenzie marrying a Wyllie. Her father is Alexander married to a Jean Whyte whose mother is Isabella Binny (another name that keeps popping up as does Kydd and Ramsay).
Thanks again for your information :-)
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Could be David Gibb's first wife? You'll see a Greig mentioned between the two births :) Very polite clerk.
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Thanks for that interesting document. I think it's taking me into a rabbit-hole. Do you have the whole page? That is Millfield, part of Inverkeilor?
Have you seen this w/ ties to your family names all over? I followed the Potter Grieg birth w/ a google producing interesting results.
https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Potter-Family-Tree-2467
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...and also found this w/ many of your family
http://www.thepotters.ca/Genealogy/p50.htm#i945
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Thanks for the links. If you PM me with your email I'll send you the pages I have for Guthrie. I have the marriage banns for both couple - one above the other on the same page :)
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Hi Everyone,
Some background...
James McKenzie married Jean Stott in Craig in 1844. I have Jean's OPR birth, their OPR marriage and both their DCs. I have them on the census (originals) from 51 to 81 the decade of their deaths. Of their seven children I have OPR birth for three and a birth certificate from 1867 for their youngest.
Hi Jenny,
I have Stotts from Craig Parish around this time.
My 5x great grandfather was John Stott b. 1781 Stracathro died 1857 at Boddin, Craig. His wife was Anne Tindal. I'm descended through their son James Stott born 1810, Craig. He married a Janet Nicoll. I'm not sure if I have all of the children of John Stott and Anne Tindal.
I know we've spoken before about the Sherets and Jollys on other sites. ;D
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Hi Liviani,
Are John Stott's (born 1790) parent's listed on his death certificate? Thought he might be a brother to William but on the 41 if that's him living at Boddin he's showing born outside of the county?
Jen
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Hi Liviani,
Are John Stott's (born 1790) parent's listed on his death certificate? Thought he might be a brother to William but on the 41 if that's him living at Boddin he's showing born outside of the county?
Jen
Hi Jen
John Stott died 1857 aged 78 at Boddin. According to George Stott (son) the informant, John's parent's were Alexander Stott and Janet Reid.
I think son George got the name of his grandfather wrong however. A John Stote was born Blackdikes, Stracathro in 1781 to a James Stote and Janet Reid. I also don't have an Alexander as a son for them, but I do have a James Stott.
I have John Stott and wife Jane at Boddin in 1851, they were there 10 years prior in 1841 as you've found. In the 1851 census his place of birth is noted as "Stracathro, Forfarrshire". So I think there is an error with the place of birth in the 1841 census.
Liviani
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Jen (Hi) - As an update to our ancestor Alexander McKenzie (married to Mary Gibb in your line), I was in contact w/ a descendant from Alex's via his son Robert (of second wife Ann Greig). He states that in his McKenzie line, men married very late (as Alex seems to have done). He says family lore has Alex being from Beauly area in Inverness. Nothing further on this...so far. Hope all is well.
Another update, not sure where we left it but I'm almost as certain as I can be w/o actual documentation that Mary Gibb is Alexander's first wife. I've been adding to that side of the family while attempting to connect her sister-in-law (David Gibb's wife Grizzell Greig, born Guthrie abt 1769) w/ Alexander's second wife Ann Greig (born in Inverkeilor abt 1782) to be able to work back Ann's line.
Happy hunting to all.