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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Vectis2 on Sunday 15 June 14 05:02 BST (UK)
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Because my grand parents were not married there are numerous problems tracing, some of my relatives, one of these was my mothers half sister. The only real clue I have is a letter from her to her dad in 1938, OK great we have all the first names, but not her married name, which makes it hard to search electoral rolls and other records. In the hope that someone has a lead I am posting the address where they lived for quite sometime I believe, but definitely in the late 30's which is : 116, Kingsgrove Road, Canterbury, NSW Australia. A lead would be most appreciated as it will open a whole new avenue of research.
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Welcome to rootschat Vectis. :)
If all of the people in question are deceased, are you able to give us some names? For example your grandparents names, the name of the half sister, your mother's name. What are the relationships mentioned in the letter? (eg John Smith and Jane Roberts had daughter Maud in 1930. Jane Roberts had daughter Janet in 1928 .... something along those lines might help trace the family and the relationships). We might be able to find possible marriages etc.
Electoral rolls would be the obvious place to find the family but I'm not sure that you can do this without names. Even just a surname or two might help.
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Thanks for the quick response, it is all a little messy as 'the grandparents secret' led to a mangling of names at different periods. My grandfather surname was was Harris [James William], my grandmothers 'first married' name was Harris [Henrietta Alice, nee Moore], which over time morphed into Harrill. Her daughter by Harris [mums half sister] was born 1894 at Plaistow London. Depending on which census you look at it can be listed under either, the first name is also a problem too as in the UK she can also be found as Aileen, Eileen or Nellie, her middle name was May. At the end of WW1 she did or didn't marry an Australian soldier [name unknown] and left the family to live in Australia where she may have married or not, there she had three sons I believe C, R and K. Grandad was a master at blurring lines and evading things and the above is the simplified version of events :)
Post edited Living children
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Thanks for the explanation. A few questions, mainly so we don't go searching for information you already have:
Do you have the family on any of the UK censuses?
Do you have your Mum's birth certificate?
Do you have her half sister's birth certificate?
It may not be as complicated as you think (I hope not anyway) .... depending on where you saw your grandmother's name as Harrill, an 's' can sometimes be mistaken for an 'l'.
So if you saw a transcription (ie someone's interpretation of the surname) or if you misread it yourself when looking at an original, I can easily see that Harris could be Harrill. How many examples of the surname as Harrill do you have? Is it just the one?
Similar with Aileen/Eileen/Nellie - they are all the same name just spelled or interpreted differently and Nellie would be a pet form of the name. You just have to be careful to search for all variations.
It also sounds like you have some family rumours you are trying to work out how much truth is in them. I take it that Eileen wrote the letter to her father and the NSW address is hers?
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Someone with a better knowledge of NSW Electoral regions may be able to do a search for an Eileen/Aileen/Nellie (surname unknown) living in the Canterbury area in the 1930s ... :-\
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Just had another thought ...
Is Harris Eileen's birth surname, or might she have taken the surname if living in the Harris household?
I had a look on Freebmd for a marriage for Eileen. IF the rumour about her marrying an Australian soldier is true, and as she lived in the London area, and her middle name is May, this looks to be a possibility - it might fit area and time wise:
Marriages Jun 1918
Harris Eileen M
Higgins William A
Kensington 1a 289
Finding an Eileen Higgins in NSW might clinch it.
There may be other candidates. I haven't looked further as yet ...
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Um righto - there are LOADS of Nellie Harrises marrying in the period around WW1 .... :(
Another approach is needed.
I hope someone else can come up with something concrete for you.
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Thanks Ruskie for taking the time to help. It was confirmed by by my mother and sister [both now deceased] that my grandparents were not married, he [GF] also had a previous marriage, registered in Fitzroy, Victoria, Australia, 1894 when he was gold prospecting [there lies another mystery :)]. I have them all on the 1901 [Poplar] and 1911 UK census [Laindon], no certificates for mum [1906] or Nellie, who was Harris in 1901 and Harrill 1911 on the census. To marry or get a passport she would have had to use her birth certificate and real name, plus wouldn't have needed parents permission as she would have been 21 in 1915. The 1938 letter from NSW was written by her husband/partner [Jack] as it was a request for money as she was ill in hospital and he was out of work [local council] he does call her Eileen in the letter. The Kensington marriage may be right as I believe that's where the Marylebone registry office is and I believe that civil marriage venues were fewer in those days, the Harrill family were based mainly in Hackney at that time, Harrill's I have, Nellie is missing :)
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Hi there,
Passports date from WWI ..... (Add, not necessary to have a passport to land in Australia .... even in 1960s under the Assisted Migration scheme)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=677387.msg5221726#msg5221726
But I do not know if she would have needed a birth certificate to marry. It was possible to marry using your baptismal certificate as your ID up to around the 1970s in New South Wales. ;D :) My marriage dates from 1970s NSW :) :) :) The NSW BDM birth extract (no longer available) was also an acceptable document until around 1990s (I phoned a rellie, a retired C of E reverend).
Cheers, JM
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Thanks for the quick response, it is all a little messy as 'the grandparents secret' led to a mangling of names at different periods. My grandfather surname was was Harris [James William], my grandmothers 'first married' name was Harris [Henrietta Alice, nee Moore], which over time morphed into Harrill. Her daughter by Harris [mums half sister] was born 1894 at Plaistow London. Depending on which census you look at it can be listed under either, the first name is also a problem too as in the UK she can also be found as Aileen, Eileen or Nellie, her middle name was May. At the end of WW1 she did or didn't marry an Australian soldier [name unknown] and left the family to live in Australia where she may have married or not, there she had three sons I believe XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX and XXXXXXX. Grandad was a master at blurring lines and evading things and the above is the simplified version of events :)
You have named three sons ..... can you confirm that each of these lads are no longer living? If they were born in NSW, then their birth certificates are still on the RESTRICTED access if they would not yet be 100 years of age :)
NSW BDM restricts access
births 100 years,
deaths 30 years,
marriages 50 years.
Cheers, JM
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Glad to have you aboard JM.
NSW BMD births only go up to 1913 which is a shame as I had a brainwave to search for the birth of possible son C**** (unusual name) with mother Nellie/Eileen/Aileen. Then cross check the other known children.
Agree with you JM - also unsure if passports were required to travel from England, nor birth certificates necessary for any form of ID.
Vectis, Unsure if the birth certificates of your mother and Eileen will get you anywhere but it is something you might like to consider purchasing.
At least we now know the name of Eileen's 'husband' - Jack (possibly a nickname for John), so the marriage to a Higgins I found is not going to be the right one as he is William. (unless Eileen married more than once). :-\
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War Brides .... including fiancees came to Australia at Government expense after both the World Wars :) and I think the passenger lists are held at National Archives of Australia. :) I don't know if they have been indexed.... ::)
Do we know if "Jack" was AIF ?
It was not compulsory to enrol to vote until mid 1920s.... You needed to be a British Subject and aged 21 years or more. British Subjects are still eligible to remain on the Australian Electoral Rolls provided they were already enrolled by 26 Jan 1986. (No such thing as "Australian Citizenship" until January 1949, and in fact Citizenship is still NOT expressly defined in the Australian Constitution ::) )
Cheers, JM
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Old Age Pensions, War Widows Pension, Civilian Widows Pension .... needed proof to be awarded .... so perhaps look 'outside the square' for possible marriage for Jack and Nellie ?
Old Age Pension for females and for Ex-Services Personnel was awarded at age 60 (Add, so some marriages were undertaken to formalise long standing partnerships, and to obtain the formal certificate for Old Age Pension to be issued in the 'right' name)
NSW BDM online index allows searching with given name only :) so perhaps try Jack and May and then click on the various headings to 'data sort' ..... Canterbury was a 'district' from NSW BDM perspective.
Cheers, JM
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In May 1952 a person named C. MUNRO was selling a Buick from that address.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18265116?
The Sydney Morning Herald Saturday 17 May 1952
If you use Google with the street address you will find a nice picture of the house as it is today.
Not much help with your couple though. ::)
Sue
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There is a James William HARRIS who served in WWI from Victoria - he has not declared that he is married. Could this be him? No 457
Regards
Jennaya
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Thanks Ruskie for taking the time to help. It was confirmed by by my mother and sister [both now deceased] that my grandparents were not married, he [GF] also had a previous marriage, registered in Fitzroy, Victoria, Australia, 1894 when he was gold prospecting [there lies another mystery :)].
Do you have the name of the person that he married in 1894?
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Thank you all for your time and efforts. it is much appreciated.
JM, as you point out I guess it would have been an assisted passage, may be like WW2 when they had a complete 'war bride' ship. As for the three sons I have no idea if they still live or had their own families, all I have is first names, this all rests on finding the family name :) All searches suggested are real possibilities, even the local RSL may be a go, but I really require a surname to turn up any usable data, this is why I have tried to concentrate on that address as I feel it is the 'key'.
Hey Sue, that advertisement may be a real lead as the 'C' may be one of the sons and I shall try using the name to see what pops up. Amongst some old photos I have is a picture of a house that matches Google images, but 70 or more years ago :)
Hi Jennaya, Grandad married a Katarine Simpson 23/09/1894 [probably Kathleen] at Fitzroy, the story goes that GF had made a bob or two prospecting and set up a business [where or what not known] and then had to return to the UK for a short period, on return he found business and wife gone :o [off records too!] by 1901 he was back in the UK running a lodging house in Poplar High St
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Hey Sue, that advertisement may be a real lead as the 'C' may be one of the sons and I shall try using the name to see what pops up. Amongst some old photos I have is a picture of a house that matches Google images, but 70 or more years ago :)
Hi
I did try ( as you propose) to link a son by name CXXXX to the MUNRO surname, but was not successful.
You may be luckier. :(
Adding- Why was the family sent a picture of the house I wonder? Any Buicks about in it ;D
Sue
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I do not know very much about title searches but I wonder if this link would be something worth exploring.
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/land_titles/property_information
I do not live in NSW, but a someone from the state may have a better understanding than me.
Would it be possible to discover the title holder in 1930's?
It assumes, of course, that Eileen and her husband were owners not renter ???
Sue
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This marriage did happen in VIC.
Wm Jas HARRILL b. Southampton
m. 1894
Katerine SIMPSON b. Hull ENG
Reg. # 5063
Essie
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Hopefully the following link will give a starting point re NSW Land Titles (link includes not just NSW)
http://www.insidehistory.com.au/2013/03/expert-qa-researching-australian-land-records-with-carole-riley/
( :) I had a message come across the screen when trying to post this .... The server was under 'high stress' ;D ;D ;D could I come back later ::) ::) ..... So here I am, back later ;D )
Cheers, JM
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This marriage did happen in VIC.
Wm Jas HARRILL b. Southampton
m. 1894
Katerine SIMPSON b. Hull ENG
Reg. # 5063
Essie
Yes that's the one I have the 'original' marriage certificate found in my mums possessions, as I said before he was a master at blurring lines and his first and second names are switched, he used Bill as well. His family were quite well to do business people and his Father a Freeman of the City of London. He ran away to sea quite young, as I said before he was born Hackney so giving Southampton was a porkie, he is listed as a steward on the cert, residing in Brunswick
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Hi there,
Re the 1938 letter that Jack sent from NSW to the UK .... Do you have the envelope? How did he spell the surname of Eileen's Dad on that envelope? or if you don't have the envelope, then from the letter, how does he address Eileen's Dad ..... as in :
"Dear ................."
Reason for asking? Well, perhaps Jack survived Eileen, and if so, perhaps Jack was the informant on her death registration, and if so, he (or any one, as informant) would have been expected to provide the full name of her Dad, and the full name of her Mum, including Mum's nee name. Of course, he would have also been expected to provide the details about Eileen May, including when and where married, names and ages of the children of the marriage/s ....
The NSW death certs are quite informative, and are far more detailed than English ones. :)
Full name, sex and age, date and place of death, usual place of residence, usual occupation and marital status at death, Place of marriage, age when married, full name of spouse, Children's name and ages, Parent's names and mother's maiden name, Cause/s of death and duration of last illness, Burial or cremation date and place.
The Sydney NSW suburbs in the Canterbury-Bankstown district in the 1930s were split between several federal electorates: I think (not sure, but) : Lang, Parkes, Reid.
Cheers, JM
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Bingo!
This is probably no help as 1938 to 1952 is a fair time and I couldn't see these people at the same address in 1949 - at least it looks like the chap selling the car :-\
Electoral Roll:
1952 at 116 Kingsgrove Rd, Kingsgrove
Clifford Raymond MUNRO, garage proprietor
Joyce Elizabeth MUNRO, clerk
This is, perhaps, his birth but it seems unrelated to your family: :(
22699/1906 #22699, registered Canterbury
Clifford R MUNRO
Parents: William, Myrtle
I see a death for Clifford Raymond MUNRO on Ryerson, July 1987 aged 83
Judith
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Thanks JM & Judith, right the letter sent to the UK by Jack didn't have an envelope, he starts it "Dear Dad", but it was Grandmother that was Nellie's parent, she had died the year before and there apparently had been some acrimony between Nellie and Grandfather over some possessions she believed rightly hers as the eldest daughter. As far as I know [just from family] Nellie did survive until after the war, I also seem to remember that one of the sons had been a Japanese POW and one had also worked for a film company delivering movies to the outback perhaps in the late 40's, In 1938 the electoral district seems to have been Lang. Judith I think that by 1952, they may have left that house then as none of that seems to correlate, but it does give us a cut off point :)
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Hi Vectis2,
Can you just confirm some things for me from the following statements:
Because my grand parents were not married there are numerous problems tracing, some of my relatives
the grandparents secret' led to a mangling of names at different periods. My grandfather surname was was Harris [James William], my grandmothers 'first married' name was Harris [Henrietta Alice, nee Moore], which over time morphed into Harrill.
Have you confirmed that these two people who appear on the same page of the marriage register are not your grandparents?
Marriages March Quarter 1893
HARRIS, William Henry
MOORE, Henrietta Alice
Registered at West Ham
Volume 4a Page 37
Have you confirmed that this not your mother's birth registration?
Births March Quarter 1906
HARRILL, Florence Alexandra
Registered at Billericay
Volume 4a Page 705
It was confirmed by by my mother and sister [both now deceased] that my grandparents were not married. I have them all on the 1901 [Poplar] and 1911 UK census [Laindon], no certificates for mum [1906] or Nellie, who was Harris in 1901 and Harrill 1911 on the census.
If you don't have birth certificates for your mother or aunt, how have you confirmed their father's correct name?
The surname is actually HARRILL on both the 1901 and the 1911. Henrietta would have provided the information on the first, and Nellie/Aileen was the person who completed and signed the second. She signed her name 'Aileen May HARRILL'.
Also noting that the person identified by the enumerator at the end of the schedule as the head of family or separate occupier is W.J. HARRILL, Stickworth, Laindon.
Debra :)
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Here's Nellie _
Electoral Roll 1937 - no others of that surname at that address.
116 Kingsgrove Rd, Canterbury
Nellie LEE, home duties
John Ingleby LEE, labourer
Other entries for these two, same occupations
1930 - 1 Kangaroo St, Canterbury - another entry, same year ( people not always removed from a previous address) 144 Northcote St, Canterbury
1933, 1936 - 144 Northcote St
1949 - 116 Bexley Rd, also at that address Ross Adrian LEE, cotton spinner, Clyde Royston Lee, motor driver
1954, John and Nellie at 116 Bexley Rd
1958, John Nellie and Ross at Bexley Rd.
I don't see John after that. Perhaps this is his death:
NSW BMDs
1965 #23567, registered Wyong
John Ingleby LEE
Parents: John Ingleby, Jane
Will have a bit more of a hunt as this would seem to be the correct family.
Judith
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Ryerson has some death notices which may be Nellie (especially given John's death was registered in Wyong and Earlwood is now the name of the suburb that used to inclde Canterbury)
Nellie Eileen LEE late of Killarney Vale, formerly of Earlwood
died 13 Jan 1983
Death Notice in Sydney Morning Herald 14 JAN 1983
Obituary in Wyong Advocate 26 JAN 1983
Ryerson may be able to give a transcription but others on Rootschat may have access to the notices.
http://ryersonindex.net/search.php
This is the only death for a Nellie LEE on NSW BMDs for 1983
1983 #100796
Nellie Eileen LEE
Father: William - no mother listed, no place of death registration listed.
Judith
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1963 (ER)
both at Hume Bvde, Killarney Vale with son R A LEE
Judith
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John Ingulbe LEE Service #55850 (38 pages of his service record)
Embarked on the ship RMS Orontes from Sydney 05 June 1918
John Ingleby LEE b. 1 Sep 1893 Adelaide
Parents were John Ingleby LEE & Jane ALLEN
Ade/Book 528/Page 77
Essie
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Very well done Judith ;D
Here is the marriage
Marriages Dec 1/4 1919
HARRIS Nellie
LEE John I
Warminster 5a/ 443
Sue
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Third son Clyde Royston LEE born 5 Oct 1923 ST KILDA, VICTORIA:
WW2 Record:
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=263381
Death:
14 Oct 2010 TWEED HEADS, NSW.
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John and Nellie were married by licence at the registry office Warminster, Wiltshire, England 22 December, 1919. You can acess his digitised record using the name as given by Essie - John Ingulbie LEE)
There is a full transcription of the marriage certificate on p15 of the record. She is married using the name Nellie HARRIS and gave her address as c/- Mrs Williams, 57 Selsdon Rd, Upton Park, London. His address is the military camp at Sutton Verney.
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx
Judith
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John I LEE enlisted for ww2 also.
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?ServiceId=A&VeteranId=308979
Sue
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First son Keith James LEE born SOUTH AUSTRALIA:
Birth:
LEE Keith James b. 22/10/1920
Father: John Ingleby LEE
Mother: Nellie HARRIS
Birth Place/Residence: Goodwood
District Code: Ade; Book: 64A; Page: 445
Death:
2 Sep 1987 CONCORD, NSW.
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Well Done Judith
Gold Stars for Judith :)
Cheers, JM
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Second son Ross Adrian LEE born SOUTH AUSTRALIA:
LEE Ross Adrian b. 04/04/1922
Father: John Ingleby LEE
Mother: Nellie HARRIS
Birth Place/Residence: Mount Barker
District Code: MtB; Book: 93A; Page: 579
Death:
2002 LIVERPOOL, NSW.
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Marriages:
LEE Keith James m. SMITH Esme 1946 MAYFIELD #20771
LEE Clyde Royston m. DOLSEN June Marjorie 1951 SYDNEY #16535
Can't see a marriage in NSW for Ross Adrian :-\
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search
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Death notice for Nellie Eileen LEE:
http://postimg.org/image/y3z50l9b3/
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Death notice for John Ingleby LEE:
http://postimg.org/image/kau1lmz0r/
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There are a couple of public trees with information (unsourced).
They suggest that the sons are all deceased. There are apparently some private living persons so perhaps contacting the tree's owner may be helpful.
Clyde Royston LEE, died 14 October, 2010
Age: 87
Tweed Heads, New South Wales, Australia
Keith James LEE 2 Sep 1987
Age: 66
Concord Hospital Nsw
Ross Adrian LEE, Sep 2002
Age: 80
Liverpool NSW Australia
Judith
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Terrific work everyone, especially Judith for the breakthrough finds. Amazing detective work! :)
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Well! Probably only a few hours now until our OP Vectis 2 comes online to see the breakthrough made primarily by Judith ;D ;D ;D and wonderfully supplemented by the rest with their amazing resources and skills.
;D Sue
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ABSOLUTELY AWESOME! Take a bow Rootschatters for some very impressive team work 8) 8) 8)
Congratulations to all for outstanding detective work :) :) :)
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I can't wait to see Vectis's face when they find out that the puzzle has been solved! ;D
I will be interested to know if Vectis intends to purchase any certificates. In particular I would be curious about:
The Harrill Simpson Vic marriage (were there any children from this union? ;))
The 1893 Harris Moore marriage at West Ham
Also, the birth certificates of Mother and Nellie to see what father's names are given.
Vectis, IF your grandparents DID marry and that the 1893 marriage is theirs, it is strange that you were told they were not married. I would also be curious to know if Nellie was a half sister. I suppose if the parents were married your grandfather would be named as the father even if he was not. Maybe in this case the family rumours may have the advantage over official certificates (as people may have known the truth) .
Perhaps some DNA tests with Australian Lee descendants may give you some answers.
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Nellie gives her father as "William HARRIS, deceased, fruit salesman" on the marriage in 1919. The occupation 'stonemason' was typed in and then crossed out and replaced by 'fruit salesman' in handwriting.
Judith
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Well........if the marriage of William HARRIS and Henrietta nee MOORE actually occurred in 1893
at West Ham, then........was it the same fellow who married Katerine SIMPSON in 1894 in VIC ???
An interesting birth in 1894 and I'm wondering if Eleanor was meant to be Eileen? I believe Nellie has also been a nickname for Eleanor.
Eleanor May HARRIS
Mar Q 1894
W. Ham 4a /77
Essie
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Yes, well done everyone, especially Judith. Did you go through the electoral roll page by page? :o
Vectis, IF your grandparents DID marry and that the 1893 marriage is theirs, it is strange that you were told they were not married. I would also be curious to know if Nellie was a half sister. I suppose if the parents were married your grandfather would be named as the father even if he was not. Maybe in this case the family rumours may have the advantage over official certificates (as people may have known the truth) .
Perhaps some DNA tests with Australian Lee descendants may give you some answers.
I was wondering if there was any chance that the real scandal was that HARRIS and HARRILL were two different men and the girls were half sisters ???
Debra :)
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The Harrill Simpson Vic marriage (were there any children from this union? ;))
RUSKIE
I could not see any in Victoria. I could see no further records in the name Katerine (or similar) HARRILL.
Sue
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..........My grandfather surname Harris [James William], my grandmothers 'first married' name was Harris [Henrietta Alice, nee Moore], which over time morphed into Harrill. Her daughter by Harris [mums half sister] was born 1894........
James William/William James HARRILL was born HARRILL, married in VIC as HARRILL, and back in the UK census as HARRILL so the surname HARRIS posted as above confused the issue. Nellie was born HARRIS so it was not uncommon for a 'stepdaughter' to use the surname of her mother's partner which is how HARRIS morphed into HARRILL.
Yes Debra, two different men ::)
Essie
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I am getting confused now ... :P
(Vectis, where did you go? Your light was on a minute ago. I am interested in your response to all these wonderful finds, and also wondering if you have any further information to add? Any past memories or family rumours that might help?)
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I am getting confused now ... ;D
I have been confused for much longer ..... ;D
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I am getting confused now ... ;D
I have been confused for much longer ..... ;D
I'm glad it is not just me. ;)
Have re read this a couple of times and am not following. :'(
Added: I think I have it now. :) It is all becoming clearer. ;)
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Henrietta MOORE married William HARRIS in 1893 and had a child named Eileen MAY
Henrietta HARRIS lived with William James HARRILL who was previously married in Australia in 1894.
Eileen used the mother s" defacto" name a little interchangeably with her own birth name of HARRIS
Sue
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I have been reading Jack's AIF file, (38 pages) which includes the AIF transcription of their 1919 marriage, so Nellie HARRIS' father was recorded as William HARRIS, deceased, a Fruit Salesman and John Ingleby LEE's father as John Ingleby LEE, deceased, a Stone Mason. (the transcriber had initially typed by the occupations with Nellie's dad as a Stone Mason and John's dad as a fruit salesman).
Nellie gives her father as "William HARRIS, deceased, fruit salesman" on the marriage in 1919. The occupation 'stonemason' was typed in and then crossed out and replaced by 'fruit salesman' in handwriting.
Judith
So back in 1919 there was confusion too. ;D
Red Post .... Agh, thanks Sue for sorting that. :D
Cheers, JM
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This has been a great team effort. Lots of clues, by lots of R'chatters.
Yes, Debra, I did spend an hour or two on a cold Canberra afternoon trawling the electoral rolls. However it wasn't too hard as Sue had found the MUNROs who were at the same address later which gave the electoral district as "Lang" and the suburb as "Earlwood" so that narrowed it down very considerably and I started with 1937 as I figured they may have been at the same address the year before the letter was written. Ruskie had winkled out the OP's list of possible forenames. I can tell you that there are a couple "Eileen May"s in Earlwood in 1937 but on looking for a Nellie there she was at the right address and with a surname.
Blessings on John/Jack's parents for being so helpful in giving him a second name which is not that common (at least not as a forename). I doubt we'd have found him if he was just plain John LEE. The wonderful NAA WW1 digital resource is such a treasure for us - copy of John's record which includes the transcription of the marriage certificate. There are also copies of hand-written letters in that file from Nellie after John's death.
The spelling Ingulbe on the service record is a bit odd as all of the other records appear to use the other spelling. The WW1 record, though, is signed by John both in 1914 and in 1917 so.............
This obit (indexed from Ryerson) for Nellie would be worth following up.
Obituary in Wyong Advocate 26 JAN 1983
I may be able to get to the NLA next week but someone else may be able to find it first.
Nellie's address is given as 157 Hume Boulevard, Killarney Vale, via The Entrance. This area is near the coast, north of Sydney - lots of retirees. I found the aerial shot of it on Googlemap but the street view that comes up seems to have a different street number. :'(
Judith
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Whoa ! you guys have been really busy and my thanks go out to you all for knocking down the wall I have been trying to get over for a long time. You are right Ruskie I was gob-smacked ;D! well done everyone for you work and taking an interest.
Right I can see that there are some other questions that have arisen which I will go back and try and answer. Dundee, the Harris, Moore marriage was my grand mother and Nellie's father, Florence Alexandra was my mother, The family had moved from Poplar to a small holding at Laindon as a son born before my mother had died of Smallpox on the isolation hospital ship at Dartford [another lose end] Grandfather during the 1911 census was working away at the Royal Alfred seaman's home at Belvedere at that time.
Ruskie and Dundee I am pretty sure that was grandmothers only marriage and with the Harrill and Harris names being so similar it played right into Grandfathers hands, definitely different people [and scandal] as I said before he was a master at blurring lines and a real character with a wicked sense of humour :) I am trying to work out how to scan the 1894 Fitzroy certificate as it is twice as long as my scanner I might have to do it in two half's and post it that way. As for what happened to Katerine as I say she did a runner, whether in Australia or returned to UK not sure the trail seems to end, perhaps grandad did catch up with her :o
Well I now have to digest what has come to light, such wonderful team work from you all, I am humbled by your generosity of time and thought a big hug to you all :)
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[quote author=Essie link=topic=689883.msg5339752#msg5339752 date=1403011384
An interesting birth in 1894 and I'm wondering if Eleanor was meant to be Eileen? I believe Nellie has also been a nickname for Eleanor.
Eleanor May HARRIS
Mar Q 1894
W. Ham 4a /77
Essie
[/quote]
I think this birth would be well worth following up also. Judith
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Glad that you have returned Vectis. I am excited that you are excited about the finds! But, it seems you have a few more mysteries to follow up. ;D I think people were a lot less open then and your grandfather probably just kept things to himself (as any scandals would have been frowned upon). We all have little family secrets lurking in the past.
Henrietta MOORE married William HARRIS in 1893 and had a child named Eileen MAY
Henrietta HARRIS lived with William James HARRILL who was previously married in Australia in 1894.
Eileen used the mother s" defacto" name a little interchangeably with her own birth name of HARRIS
Sue
Sue, thank you. It is all clear now. ;)
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Vectis, is it your intention to try to find living relatives in Australia?
(I presume you are elsewhere in the world? UK?)
It is more difficult to trace the living in Australia than it is in the UK (where bmd records go up to the 1990s/2000s).
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For those interested and by way of giving something back here is a copy of the Harrill / Simpson marriage certificate of 1894 thanks again all :)
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Vectis
While the certificate's details are of great interest to us, I must advise that for reasons of copyright R'chat users are not permitted to post large sections or entire copies of these documents. It is highly likely your post will be removed by a moderator.
However, having said that, I would have been interested in knowing the names of Katerine's parents. Although she says born in Hull UK, it is possible that she came with her parents to Australia and there may be a way to learn more about her.
Can you transcribe the last bit of the document which gives parental information?
Sue
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I am not familiar with Victoria’s BDM documents from that era, but I am familiar with NSW BDM documents from that era….
So, I offer the following comments …
When a couple marry, the officiating minister/officer requires the bride and groom and their witnesses to sign several times in various registers and on official documents. Then the Bride is handed the signed certificate, which has those original signatures. (Notice that the wife needed the document, afterall she was the one who was about to change her surname) .
The document that Vectis2 holds is not that “Bride’s copy”, but a copy from the Vic BDM (ie from ‘Office of the Government Statist’) in Melbourne and was issued 25th October 1898. FOUR years after the marriage... And, at the top left, there's a Duty Stamp that was franked …. FIVE shillings ... not a penny, but 5/-. If this were a NSW document from that era I would be thinking “Possibly obtained to support a divorce suit or child maintenance or a warrant for arrest of husband …. Wife desertion ” ….(Not possible to seek to commence a divorce suit/or a maintenance order/etc without first providing the court with proof of the marriage in the first instance). This document (25 Oct 1898) was likely sought by someone physically attending and requesting the official document, and if so, likely knowing the date of the marriage and the surnames of either or both the bride and the groom. (Add, 1898 and NSW BDM registers were not indexed for clerical use within the Register General's Office, I don't know if Vic BDM registers were indexed, but I think the "Pioneer" and "Federation" indexes date from volunteer efforts in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
Cheers, JM
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JM,
I never looked at the date ::)
Of course you are right-4 years later. I had been thinking the reason for HARRILL not marrying HARRIS was that it would have been bigamous. However, perhaps you are correct and there was a divorce.
How interesting. :-\
Sue
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Married 25 Sept 1894 by licence, at Fitzroy by Nathaniel KINSMAN, a Minister of Religion, by the rites of the Victorian Free Church
William James HARRILL gave his details as
Bachelor, Southampton, England
Steward, 28 Present and Usual residence Brunswick
(parents) Thomas HARRILL and Clara HARRILL (nee) WEBB. Thomas, as an agent
Katerine SIMPSON gave her details as
Spinster, Hull, England
Assistant, 22, Present and Usual residence Beechworth,
(parents) Walter SIMPSON and Sarah SIMPSON (nee) unknown. Walter as a carpenter.
Witnesses Lydia KINSMAN and F ROTHWELL.
(likely witnesses were known to the Rev'd N Kinsman)
Cheers, JM
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Marriage Transcription:
25 September 1894 at Moor St, Fitzroy
William James HARRILL, 28, bachelor, steward, birthplace Southampton, England;
present address Brunswick; usual address Brunswick;
parents Thomas HARRILL, agent, Clara HARRILL (WEBB)
Katerine SIMPSON, 22, spinster, assistant,
present address Beechworth; usual address Beechworth
birthplace Hull, England;
parents: Walter SIMPSON, carpenter, Sarah SIMPSON (maiden name 'unknown')
I, Nathaniel KINSMAN, a minister of religion, have this day at Moor St Fitzroy, duly celebrated a marriage between William James HARRILL, steward. of Brunswick and Katerine SIMPSON of Beechworth, assistant;
The marriage by licence between us was solemnized according to the rites of the Victorian Free Church.
Signed:
William James HARRILL
Katerine SIMPSON
Witnesses: Lydia KINSMAN, F ROTHWELL
It should be noted that the certificate posted is a copy, issued 25 October, 1898, so the signatures are not the actual signatures on the original certificate. Vectis, is this a certificate that you already had, or is it one recently purchased? I don't think it will make any difference in this case but sometimes a comparison of handwriting is useful. Interesting to know if someone had requested that copy back in 1898 :-\
Judith
Just an aside - as this certificate was issued in 1898 is it still in Copyright???????????
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Sorry - repeat info - my machine is soooooooooooooooooo slow today - and i didn't get the red message in time - you're quicker than I am this morning JM ;D
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:) My laptop got given the full treatment by my OH yesterday, just in case it was my fault that I could not get Ancestry..... ::) ::) ::) I did TELL him that it was "DDOS" . At least 'everything' is again backed up "properly"
It is my understanding that the document dated 1898 has no residual copyright issues hanging over it, at least from the various Australian copyright regulations. I am happy to be corrected.
http://www.copyright.org.au/find-an-answer/
ADD, The document seems to have been a pre-printed form, and the details added to that form on 25th October 1898. So under some of the copyright regulations, it could be argued there was no copyright issue involved even in 1898, as it was an official transcription from the original record. ;D
Cheers, JM
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Right the certificate was found in an old deed box of my mums. I too had missed that the issue date was a later date, I don't know why, but I have a theory :) Grandad may have wanted to start a divorce action, but because Katerine had disappeared was unable to serve papers, I don't know what back then was the period of desertion require to make serving those papers not necessary and as divorce was a highly scandalous and not common action at that time, he probably just walked away from it. I am sure if he could he would have married Hetty as they were apparently devoted to each other and share the same grave plot under the name of Harrill :)
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I agree with JM regarding the copyright of that particular certificate.
I doubt that buying the actual image from the original certificate would shed any more light on this, although you never know. Vectis, is William HARRILL your grandfather? I'm getting a bit confused now.
Here's the probable marriage of William's parents:
June qr 1857, registered at Bristol, Vol 6a, p 86
Thomas Moxly HARRILL
Clara Mary WEBB
Judith
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Divorce in Victoria dates from 1861, grounds for divorce extended to include desertion date from 1889.
http://www.aifs.org.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html
http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/pubs/fm2001/fm60/jf.pdf
Cheers, JM
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Hmm - maybe a brother of your man
Thomas Moxly HARRILL - Dec qr, 1893, registered Fulham, Vol 1a, p 582.
Unfortunately there are two men listed on the index for that page and only one woman - Jnae GILES - so where the record for the other woman is who knows!
One thing you've had in your favour, Vectis is the number of easy to find names that are not common ;)
Just another - Moxly must have been a family name as there is a marriage for a William Moxly HARRILL, registered Bristol, Sep qr 1853 - Anna Maria OGBORN is the only female listed on the same page. Perhaps a brother/cousin of Thomas.
Vectis - do you already have this earlier information?
Judith
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Right guys, just to make things awkward my great Grandfather and one of his sons [GF brother] share the same name, I believe this was common at that time, I once worked for a family that three generations shared the same name and at one time were all running the business! so both are right the marriage in Bristol was GGF and the other his brother. I saw a note somewhere when it is quoted that G-Grandmother had 8 children of which only six were alive at that time, I have accounted for 7 and presume one may have died on around birth
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Re the Groom on the 1894 marriage cert :) a Steward ... I suspect the shipping lines were not adjusting dates for the respective ages of their crew members.
W J HARRILL, 2nd Cook, aged 28, Southampton, Crew on TYRIAN, Melbourne to Sydney July 1896
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1896/07/046tyr.htm
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1896/07/media/046tyr1.gif
W HARRILL 2nd Cook, aged 28, England, Crew on LEURA, Brisbane to Sydney December 1897
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1897/12/015leu.htm
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1897/12/media/015leu.gif
W J HARRILL, Butcher, aged 28, British, Crew on THERMOPYLAE from London to Sydney March 1899
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1899/03/063the.htm
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1899/03/media/063the1.gif
ADD
W J HARRILL, aged 50, born London, crew, 2nd Cook on the CALULU, from the U.K. via Melbourne to Sydney 10 Sept 1918.
(There's other voyages too, but he seems to have been working on passenger ships for most of his adult life...... )
FURTHER ADD
1894
Signed on at Melbourne, on board S S FLINDERS, for voyage from Melbourne via pts (JM assumes coastal trading, he needed to be back in Melbourne for his Sept 1894 marriage ;D ) document dated 21 May 1894….
W J HARRILL, 2nd Cook
Cheers, JM
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Thank JM, Grandad had an amazing life if one believes 'all' the stories :) and a lot of it spent at sea, he and my father were on the same ship and when they docked in London he brought him home and that is how he met my mother, she was 24 or so I expect GF was worried she might be left on the shelf ;D Grandfather died in 1953 when I was 7 and I can remember him well, he looked like Albert Einstein with a shock of white hair, a part of his DNA I did not inherit :)
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I see quite a lot of earlier information about some of your family. I'm happy to post it (in dribs and drabs as I fear I have to do something to the oven shortly) unless you want to have a go at unravelling it yourself.
Hmm - you need to be warned - family history is addictive and the addiction is so strong that some of us get involved with looking for other families. ::)
Judith
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I see quite a lot of earlier information about some of your family. I'm happy to post it (in dribs and drabs as I fear I have to do something to the oven shortly) unless you want to have a go at unravelling it yourself.
Hmm - you need to be warned - family history is addictive and the addiction is so strong that some of us get involved with looking for other families. ::)
Judith
Hi Judith, I would be most grateful for anything that you find and in your own time is great, what I haven't got will be use full and what I do have will hopefully be verified. Bristol seems to be where G grandfather hails from and amongst other businesses coal merchant seems to be a common thread at least in Hackney, that and ship provisions. hence follows :
"NOTICE is hereby given, that the Partnership heretofore
JL\ subsisting between Thomas Moxley Harrill and Henry
Bell, at 17, King-street, Tower Hill, in the city of London,
BB Ships' Butchers, under the style or firm of Harrill
and Bell, has been dissolved by mutual consent.—Dated this
14th day of April, 1881. Thomas M. Harrill. [London Gazette]
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Vectis
While the certificate's details are of great interest to us, I must advise that for reasons of copyright R'chat users are not permitted to post large sections or entire copies of these documents. It is highly likely your post will be removed by a moderator.
However, having said that, I would have been interested in knowing the names of Katerine's parents. Although she says born in Hull UK, it is possible that she came with her parents to Australia and there may be a way to learn more about her.
Can you transcribe the last bit of the document which gives parental information?
Sue
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Vectis
While the certificate's details are of great interest to us, I must advise that for reasons of copyright R'chat users are not permitted to post large sections or entire copies of these documents. It is highly likely your post will be removed by a moderator.
However, having said that, I would have been interested in knowing the names of Katerine's parents. Although she says born in Hull UK, it is possible that she came with her parents to Australia and there may be a way to learn more about her.
Can you transcribe the last bit of the document which gives parental information?
Sue
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Hi there RAh32
Welcome to Rootschat.
You need to do a reply to a thread by typing your reply into the 'box' which comes up, rather than in the subject heading. You don't need to repeat what is already here which is what has happened so far with your two posts. It can take a while to get used to how Rootschat works. :)
This is a long and complicated thread so you'll need to re-read it carefully to follow all of the relationships/marriages/defactoes/ half siblings etc!
It has been a very interesting journey to find Nellie and her origins.
Cheers, Judith
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The parent detail for Katerine are, Walter and Sarah Simpson, mother maiden name listed as unknown, his profession is given a carpenter. As Katerine [or is it Kathleen?] disappears perhaps she too returned to the UK, to be in Australia unaccompanied at 22 does seem very 'adventurous' for that time [unlike today]
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Vectis - I wonder if a new thread should be started for this hunt as this thread is so long and complicated. A new thread could be easily linked to this one.
PM sent as well - read quickly, very exciting! ;D :)
Judith
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Sorry, I have got the hang of it now!
I cannot wait to make contact.
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Sorry to hear that nanna was always very secretive and I had no idea who her mother was. I have a copy of her marriage certificate and a certificate for a Eileen May Harriss! My mum thought she may have been married before!
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Hi
Just to confirm ;D
Is the marriage certificate you have the one for the marriage I have listed on pg 4 of this thread (reply #30)?
Sue
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Whoa ! exciting developments RAh32! I think we are getting to the stage where things are a little confused, Judith has suggested that we might need a new thread which is linked, but that has me completely flummoxed :) as to 'how to' and in what form, I have only just mastered 'reply' :)
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Sorry - I wasn't very clear. I think info re Nellie HARRIS/HARRILL/LEE and her parents/spouse/children is in the right place here on this thread.
What I meant and didn't say properly is that I think a hunt for earlier information on the HARRILL family in the 1800s should be on a new thread.
If you want to do that, Vectis, then you may choose to put in on an English board but it could stay on this Aussie board if you like. I can PM you with how to do it and I can easily add the link once you have a new thread.
Anyhow that's just my opinion......................... :D
Judith
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I agree with you Judith.
If there is more to discover about Nellie in Australia, then there is no need to start up a new thread.
Sue
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Right guys hopefully things have settled down here at home and I can get on with the fun stuff :) I think too that it might confuse the Harrill/Harris/Lee thread if we start a new elsewhere so, lets push on. I have spent some time this morning looking for some photos, not an easy job since we downsized :) and come up with 5 photos that are identified on the back! One give instructions on how to get to 144 Northcote St. ! and a picture of 4 children sitting on a door step. Nellie was visited by Grandad, my father and my brother at different times as they were all merchant seamen. There is another with I presume Nellie and Keith on his return form Borneo at wars end. one of his wife Esme and 2 of Clyde. So I guess that confirms we have the right Nellie and right family :) OK I have one more mystery is there a 'Doris' in the equation.
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Hi Vectis
How nice if you can put some names to those photos.
Please remind us what information you have abut a Doris?
Judith
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Hi Judith 'Doris' is a wild card I have a photo, with writing on back "Dad & Doris 1948", but in same hand writing as the other photos. in another photo there are 3 boy and it looks like a 'girl' in the picture on the door step, but the writing on the back of that photo is the directions to Northcote St. Not sure how to go about showing the photos as I feel RAh32 should be a part of the decision to do so, or perhaps see them first before deciding :)
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Hi Vectis,
I too think it would be good if you and RAh32 could have a nice chat (offline if preferred) and then get back to us if/when you need help or support.
RAh32 has shared some interesting items of research with me by PM. I am sure many here would be interested to learn more if all parties are agreed.
So really, the next step is up to you and RAh32. ;D
Sue
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Please keep us updated on any offline developments Vectis. ;)
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Hi all, well true to the thread so far it appears that a few more twists and turns have cropped up and there are still more questions than answers :) I am sure it won't be long before we can share them with you and push on.
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There is some further information which RAh32 and Vectis have come up with - some answers, some more questions about Eileen/Nellie HARRIS/HARRISS/HARRILL's earlier life.
The records for her from the time she left for Australia in April 1920, having married John Ingleby LEE in Warminster UK on 22 December 1919, (transcription in NAA WW1 records for John LEE) all use the name Nellie LEE or Nellie Eileen LEE and paint a good picture of her life through 3 sons, death notices and electoral rolls etc. These details also correspond with family knowledge of her here in Oz.
The family has another marriage certificate:
442654 . August 7th 1918 St Barnabas Church parish of Little Ilford.
Marriage between William Stanley Gray 28 Bachelor Lieutenant HM Forces c/o The Orwell Hotel Felixstowe, father Alexander Gray (deceased)
Eileen May Harriss aged 23, Spinster, 24 Byron Ave Little Ilford, father; William Henry Harriss (deceased)
Witnesses: Henrietta Alice HARRILL and Albert (illegible - could be ALLEN)
Henrietta HARRILL was her mother. She seems to have used the names Nellie/Eileen/Aileen and surnames HARRIS and HARRILL and now HARRISS at verying times in her earlier life.
Family lore has it that there had been an earlier marriage and a child born who died at age 3.
The only FreeBMD birth and death which seem to fit are these:
Birth: Dorothy E R Gray December quarter,1920 Camberwell - indexes have mother as Harriss
Death: Dorothy Gray 1923 Lambeth
However there is a GRAY/HARRISS marriage in Camberwell in1914 which may be the parents of Dorothy E GRAY, given that Nellie had a boy registered in South Australia (as found on rootschat) in the same quarter as the registration of the Dorothy GRAY birth in England. So it looks as though Dorothy E R GRAY is not Nellie's child.
Possibly Eileen had a child with Lt GRAY before she married John LEE and which she left behind when she came to Oz .
And what happened to Lt William Stanley GRAY? I started a thread on the Armed Forces board but had no joy.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=690743.0
Judith
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Thank you Judith. What would be the odds of 2 people having the same name and a daughter! John and I have had some great chats and I saw a picture of nana when she was young. Hope we get lucky with the LT Gray.
Regards Roz
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Hi everyone, just an observation or two on the Grey wedding, first off the address given of 24 Byron Avenue, is one I know as where the family lived, not sure when they moved there, but my mother told me about the effects of the Silvertown explosion which I believe was January 1917. Secondly the witness is Nellie's mum using her Harrill alias, my grandfather probably would not have been there as he was at sea ["W J HARRILL, aged 50, born London, crew, 2nd Cook on the CALULU, from the U.K. via Melbourne to Sydney 10 Sept 1918"] the other signature might have been from a Grey family member. Because Nellie used her maiden name on the second Warminster marriage could the first marriage have been annulled ? maybe Grey returned from the war 'damaged' these are only thoughts as the Grey marriage is a complete bolt out of the blue to me :)
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The two marriages sure add to the mysteries. The GRAY marriage was certainly known to the family. This marriage could well have been annulled or Lt GRAY may have been killed/wounded/missing in action (or just missing!) in the 15 months between the marriages. Perhaps Nellie had not told John LEE that she had been married before.
Judith
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Hi Judith, The rumour my mum heard was both the husband and the daughter died!!
regards Roz I think pop new!!
It looks like it might be the other gray's who had Dorothy.
The plot thickens!!
The writing in the Needlework Encyclopaedias is definitely Nellies!! Even though it says Eileen May Harriss 1918!! I have the same writing in the Coronation Book Nana Gave me in 1953 and I have a few cards and postcards in the same handwriting!! I also noticed the same writing on the back of John's Photos!!
Regards Roz
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OK folks, while doing a little more researching, I have to share a bit of a spooky story. Way back in 1995 my wife and I were in England for my sons wedding and we were staying in Eastbourne. As a part of the holiday we decided to visit Bath for a couple of days. We set off in our hire car and as the morning drew on we were on the lookout for somewhere to eat, deciding the next 'Little Chef' would be it, but none appeared. In the end hunger got the better of us and we decided to pull off the main drag at the next village and find a pub, which we duly did. On ordering the meal the barman inquired where we were from and when we said Australia, he said "you have come to see the boys down the churchyard then", not knowing what he meant we asked and he said that there was a small military cemetery there. On finishing our meal we spent some time with the boys in the cemetery before resuming our journey, many had died of flu in 1918 after surviving the trenches. Only this morning I found that place was Sutton Verny! and they must have been stationed with John Ingleby Lee there in 1918. The real spooky bit was when we rejoined the main road within a couple of miles was a 'Little Chef' rest stop! which at the time we thought was weird. Talk about life just being like a giant game of joining the dots ! :)
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Hmm, I think you must have had Lady Luck on your side not to find a Little Chef which must be the most appalling purveyor of roadside food in the UK. ::)
There are some amazing co-incidences in this genealogy lark. When my niece lived in North London she would occasionally take a short cut home from the bus through Abney Cemetery, not knowing until some years later that she had been passing her 4G Grandfather's grave.
I love that area of Wiltshire and have ancestors from Mere, Chicklade and Amesbury along the A303. The village of Sutton Veny has a nice web-page, worth looking at, with some photos of this years' annual Anzac Day ceremony, and some interesting information of the camp/s there in WW1. So nice to know these lads so far from home are remembered.
http://suttonveny.co.uk/
BTW I had a look at the Commonwealth War Graves website but no sign of a Lt GRAY
Judith
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Hi Judith, I was at Rookwood Cemetery a few years ago and walked straight to the grave of my g grandparents and my uncle who was in the same grave!
regards Roz
It is like LT Gray is a ghost!
I sent John a copy of the front page of Eileen's book and he thinks the writing is the same as Nellies!
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Hi !! I think Lt Gray was an acting Captain on 27th August 1918!! There is no record of his death as he is mentioned in the Gazettes Feb and July 1919!!
Regards Roz
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Good find Roz - which Gazettes are they?
Judith
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Hi Judith, One of them seems to be the one you looked at 7 November 1918 and the other ones are 15 Feb and 30 July 1919. I found it going a different way but I somehow think it may be the tank guy! This William Stanley Gray was a cadet. It said he was an acting captain at Maricourt 27th August 1918 the Royal Fusilier's had only been in the area 2 weeks!!His captain was killed. He received Honours and a Bar. I found this out in the cadets honours and distinctions page 89 University of London!
Regards Roz
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Hi Judith, I just spoke to a friend of my dad's and I was told dad always said she was a bigamist (Nellie).
Regards Roz
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He is quite elusive!
I found this mention but I think his names were William Stanley not the other way round. However we don't really know if this is the same man. :-\
included in a list of men who are to return to the rank of 2nd Lt (from A/g Lt) on completion of service December 1920
Tank Corps
S W GRAY
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32163/supplement/12365
I'm trying to find the ref you gave, Roz
It seems possible/likely that Nellie was still married to William GRAY but maybe he had died, or left her,or just disappeared so it seemed easier to just give marital status as 'spinster'. I was married in UK in 1969 and no-one asked for any ID at all, so I would think it would have been fairly easy for Nellie to say whatever suited her - especially as the LEE marriage was nowhere near her home.
Judith
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Hi Judith, Honours and distinctions Gray LT (actg Capt) William, Lond.R TF it said if the actg is in brackets it is less than 6months. The gazette was for the military cross Nov 1918. he was awarded for gallantry as his captain was killed.
The bar was for Bois d'en Haut near Marincourt when the battalion arrived he volunteered to go out under heavy fire and retrieved the wounded. I think it was the Royal Fusiliers! That was 27 th August 1918!
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Do you know he was definitely In the Army?
The marriage between Lt Gray and Eileen May Harriss took place on 7th August 1918. His address was a hotel in Felixstowe.
The RAF were in Felixstowe (http://356atc.co.uk/web/index.php/squadron-information/history/raf-felixstowe).
Heywood
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Heywood thank you for letting me know this! I saw a list of the 27 flying Aces of 1915 to 1919! I was wondering where I could get a full list of the pilots!
RAH32
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Hi Judith, Is there anything that I can apply for to help out?
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I don't know how Lt GRAY can be found now, nor even which service he belonged to. There are too few with the three of his names and too many just William GRAY.
I sent to the UK National Archives to see how much it would cost to have a copy of the record for the Tank Corps man - 73 pounds :o was the answer which I thought was a bit much. ::)
The RN also had shipping in the area around Felixstowe and who knows where he was actually stationed. as he was using the Hotel address.
It is really amazing how much we found. Judith