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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: SoupDragon64 on Tuesday 10 June 14 21:46 BST (UK)
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Hello All,
I've had my great grandfather's medal card for a while now, along with details from the medal roll (on Ancestry) and have just used the info on them to try and find him on the database for the King's Liverpool Regiment (on the Liverpool Museum website), but keep getting the message they have no details.
I have his service number, rank (private) correct name etc, but whatever I put in I have no luck. Why would he be missed off this do you think? Is there anywhere else I could find out information so that I can go on to find out where he served? I can't find out what batallion he was in and it doesn't say on the records I have. I know he was overseas, it says so on the medal roll. I would also like to find out why he was discharged as being unfit to continue serving,and I hoped I might find a clue in his records. He served from 1914 to June 1918.
Any help would be really appreciated, as I don't know where to look next.
Thanks so much
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Have you considered the possibility that there may have been a spelling error on entry to the database? Although you have the correct name, he may have been registered online with a variant.
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What is his name and service number?
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Hello both, and thanks for the quick response,
His name is Edwin James Miles NEWBY and his service number is 25068. On the Find My Past listing he is listed as Edwin Jas Miles (thought this might be an abbreviation of James).
I tried searching just using his service number, so that if he was listed under a different/misspelled name his record would still come up, but no luck :(
Thanks again
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On his medal card it gives the reason for discharge:
A(rmy) O(rder) 265/17 (Silver War Badge)
Para 2 B 1
Para 2: Under the amended conditions the badge will, subject in every case to the approval of the Army Council, be issued only to the individuals specified below, who have served with the military forces subsequent to the 4th August, 1914:
Sub-para B: Those who, having served as soldiers and being still of military age, have been discharged under the conditions set forth at (i) and (ii)
(i) After service overseas in the armed Forces of the Crown, on account of disablement or ill-health caused otherwise than by misconduct,
(ii) After service at Home, and have been medically examined and finally discharged from liability to further military service under sub-section (5) of Section 1 of the Military Service (Review of Exception) Act, 1917, as permanently and totally disabled, otherwise than from misconduct.
So he was discharged on account of disablement or ill-health, and given a Silver War Badge to prove to all that he had indeed served in the war.
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"Jas." is indeed an abbreviation for James.
The details for him from the Silver Badge Roll say he enlisted 30-12-1914, was issued with the Silver War Badge 12-6-1918, and was discharged 18-6-1918. The cause of discharge on the roll is 392 (xvi) B1. All that the (xvi) means "No longer physically fit for war service", no more specific reason being given.
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There are no campaign medals on Index Card so he MAY not have served overseas OR there may have been another Medal Card lost(some are missing)....SWB says overseas service.Also he MAY have served in Ireland so won't have campaign medals as it was classed as home service.
you may be able to guesstimate his battalion with finding similarly numbered lads who were casualties as soldiers were often allocated to battalions in "batches" its not guaranteed but sometimes works
You need a database like Soldiers Died In Great War to do it effectively though....my copy isn't to hand tonight
25053 M Maguire also a dischargee has similar number no Overseas service discharged from Depot KLR
Ady
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I tried searching "NEWBY" (with no other details) on the Liverpool Museum page and found:
NEWBY EJM EDWIN L CORPORAL 025068
Apart from that, I didn't find the website useful. All the links to find out more information end up on pages recommending external sources (such as the National Archives or the Army Personnel Centre).
All the best
Philip
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There are two medal cards for him if you search the national archives website
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?_q=Edwin+newby&_sd=&_ed=
Looks like ancestry have lost one ....downside is youll have to buy it
Ady
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On Ancestry, if you enter his full name, with a keyword of "Liverpool", both medal cards turn up!
NEWBY, Edwin Liverpool R Pte 25068
Victory Medal & British War Medal
Notes: Re-submitted under A.C.I. 75 of 1921 Previously claimed on K.L.R. B.W. & V. Medal Roll S. No. 1342 B.
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The medal rolls are not on Ancestry or any other site, they are at the National Archives at Kew. What they have at Ancestry and the TNA website are the index cards that allow you to locate an entry in the medal rolls (a set of ledgers). The ledger entry doesn't often give much more information than the index card but will usually give the battalion.
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I am not sure about what I have from Anc*********** then as it says they are
the Northamptonshire Regiment Medal Rolls from T.N.A.? WO 100/500
Lists the men etc, are they award rolls.
Sandy
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Thanks All,
mmm45 - The medal roll of individuals entitled to the War Badge states that he did serve overseas and it also lists his batallion, or at least I think it does; The roll states it is for the King's Liverpool Regiment, and lists others who were all in the 3rd Batallion or Depot as their unit of discharge. Hope I'm reading this right. I'll have to check the National Archives for this other card. The other information you gave is useful too, thanks.
philipsearching - that's interesting, him being a L Corporal as everything else I've managed to find says he is a Private. Wonder why that would be!?
Newburychap -I thought I had a copy of the medal roll from Ancestry - that's what the title says 'Roll of Individuals entitled to the "War Badge". Am I looking at a different thing, or just getting matters confused? No wonder I need to ask for help and advice, what seems straight forward/simple at first is obviously not to me (I'm thick when it comes to all this stuff!!!) :)
Thanks again all for so much information and help.
Might also be worth me mentioning (I totally forgot, sorry) that he appears on the 1901 census as Edwin Newby, in the Orford Barracks - Warrington, in the Malitia Liverpool Regiment as a general labourer. Don't know if this would be in any way linked to his service in the King's Liverpool; would he be a reservist if he was in the 3rd batallion then, and sign up again at the outbreak of war?
Too many questions, I'm sorry ;D
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Have you also seen the Medal Card for EDWARD Newby with the same number?
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Hello,
No I haven't! What site is that on? When I just put in his service number, with no names or only his surname I get nothing, which is why it is so infuriating. Thanks for this though, I'll check it out. Right now I'm just trying to find anything related to him using what information I have, but not having any luck :(
Forget that I've just found it on Ancestry and WOW - does that say he was convicted of desertion? Also that he forfeited his medal? The more I look into my family history the more difficult they seem to like to make it!!! Not one of the people I look for are easy to find, or have a 'simple/starightforward' past. Still, keeps me out of trouble I suppose ;D Thanks for this.
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Its on Ancestry and has some illuminating comments on it.
Maybe from the date of entry to theatre youll be able to work out his original battalion not the Depot he was discharged from
http://www.1914-1918.net/kings.htm
At a guess 13th Service Battalion landed within 24 hrs of the Edward Newby on the card
This maybe of interest to him reclaiming forfeited medals
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=80131
Ady
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The 1st and 2nd Battalions were Regular soldiers. The 3rd and 4th Battalions were Militia - part-timers who did seven weeks initial training and about 6 weeks summer camp for six years.
In 1900 until just before the 1901 census they created two additional Regular battalions. These were named 3rd and 4th and while they lasted the Militia dropped to 5th and 6th. About half the Militia went to South Africa and fought in the Boer War. Those that did not go were usually discharged. So you need to check the medal rolls on Ancestry. His number will be a lot lower - about 4-5000. There is a virtual complete set of Militia papers on Findmypast. It will tell you if he went to SA.
His WW1 number shows there was a long break in service. Unfortunately the SWB badge roll gives his unit he was transferred to for discharge, and not the one he served with in France. You need his WW1 papers to have survived the 1940 fire to discover that.
btw...A.C.I. 75 of 1921 is Army Council Instruction 75 of 1921. But I cannot discover what it covers.
Ken
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Hi Ken, thanks for this.
I have a transcript of his Silver War Badge award from FindMyPast, but got the original copy a while ago on Ancestry. I also found today, thanks to Stephen Nulty on here, a further Award card.
All this information is alien and very overwhelming for me, so will probably take me ages to understand much of it, but thanks to everyone on here who has helped I have found much more in the last day than I would have ever have hoped to in a very long time on my own :) Have had to attach the war medal card found today, as it will not let me post it here.
mmm45 - does the qualifying date mean the date they went to wherever, in this case France?
Soupy64
Moderator comment: copyright image removed
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Liverpool Daily Post 10 April 1916
ROLL OF HONOUR
Wounded
King's (Liverpool) - Newby, 25068, E
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Thanks so much for this, it means a lot to me, everyone helping and offering their knowledge. I will look this up tomorrow on line. I no longer live in Liverpool, so can't just go to the record office and search for stuff, which would have been so much easier.
His little file, with a few sheets of paper is now 'massive' and no doubt will get bigger ;D
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Yes the date of entry is when he deployed over seas it pretty much ties in with 13th Batt but that's not guaranteed
Ken the link I put on refers to ACI 75 its to do with reinstatement of medals after forfeitshire.
Ady
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13th Bn Diary for April 1916 is a bit light.
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mmm45 - does the qualifying date mean the date they went to wherever, in this case France?
There is usually a one day difference between the date 1914-1918.net have a battalion landing and the qualifying date. As the latter is the date they sailed from England. This goes back to the 19th century when time at sea was included in Overseas service. As (for both) they reduced the pay as they were given food at sea and when overseas.
A interesting project for someone would be to see if a man sent to Egypt before the end of 1915, but landed after 1st January 1916 received the 1914-15 Star. If not then the one day difference only applied to F&F.
So it looks as it he was in the 13th Battalion.
I too think it will be for return of medals. It seems strange that a man deserted and then they give him a SWB. But di not give him his BWM.
On the card CRV = Certified Receipt Voucher, plus a date when the medal office receiving the medal back. It is hard to say if it was re-issued, as you would then expect a IV (Issue Voucher) reference and date.
Ken
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I am not sure about what I have from Anc*********** then as it says they are
the Northamptonshire Regiment Medal Rolls from T.N.A.?
Lists the men etc, are they award rolls.
Sandy
WO 100/500 is a medal roll for the Indian General Service medal 1937-1939 - not a WW1 roll - I didn't realise Ancestry were supplying these - you can also download them (free) from the National Archives website (a big download as its the whole book - 500+ pages). Boer War and other medal rolls are also available at Ancestry.
WW1 medal roll ledgers are not online. They are at TNA under series WO 329 - and include 44 ledgers covering the Liverpool Regiment alone. The numbers on the basic medal index card for Edwin Newby references one of these ledgers - for the British War & Victory Medals (H/2/102B52 page 8634). This ledger is now held under reference WO 329/837. In general the ledger gives little additional information - but they do often give the battalion(s) the chap served in.
Here is an interesting example found on the net:
http://www.series47.org.uk/Geneology/Medal%20Roll.jpg
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How stupid of me to think they were WW1.
I have them listed on my files as award rolls northants.
I obviously need to check resource before I name them.
Thanks for clarifying what they are.
Sandy
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Hello,
not entirely sure what I have then, it is listed as a medal roll. Can't post an image as the site doesn't like whatever I try to post it as, don't know why, but it is entitled 'Roll of Individuals entitled to the "WAR BADGE" - King's Liverpool Regiment.
I looked on National Archives, but you have to buy the whole item and not an individual section, so I will have to see how much that will cost.
Cheers
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Hi
That document sounds like the silver war badge roll which is available on ancestry
The campaign medals roll isn't available to view online yet.
He enlisted 30/12/14
Ady
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Hello,
Thanks for clearing that up. I'll see how much the other roll costs, but more importantly how many names are on it; I don't want to end up with a massive document for a small piece of information LOL :)
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Hello,
Thanks for clearing that up. I'll see how much the other roll costs, but more importantly how many names are on it; I don't want to end up with a massive document for a small piece of information LOL :)
TNA will copy a single page of the roll for you - there is no need to buy the whole book (which would be v expensive).