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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: natz300 on Sunday 08 June 14 10:45 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Im looking for information on my Step Grt Grt Grandad Ernest E Philbrick born 1896 in South Africa and died 1963 in Southampton, England. All we know is that he travelled over here possibly with the navy/as a sailor. He looked for lodgings and stayed with my Grt Grt Nan Lavinia Gravett (nee Chivers) and after my Grt Grt Grandad had died they got married in 1946 and had no children together as Lavinia was already in her 60's. We also know Ernest had at least one sister who travelled over for a visit in the first few years of their marriage.
Does anyone know where I would be able to find out any information about Ernest? Or does anyone already have any information they don't mind passing on?
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I don't know if this is your man, Cape Town archive has a record of a divorce action between a Alice Rebecca (born Melville) and Ernest Edward Philbrick dated 1916.
Regards
Bruce
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Was his middle name Edward?
Ernest Edward Philbrick age 33 born 1891 nationality South African, British, coal trimmer
Event date 19 May 1924 departs Southampton arrival New York aboard Araguaya
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JNHP-P2P
United Kingdom, Merchant Navy Seamen Records - you will need credits to view details
Ernest Edward Philbrick born c1892 - Military Service https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KC7K-TRV
This might be a possibility for Ernest (born c 1891) father he's also named Ernest E born c1867 Hampshire living with his parents - you would need to obtain the marriage certificate of Ernest (Junior) born c1892 to confirm his father's name
1867 Christening https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NRBJ-583
1871c https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFDG-4W9
1881c https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X31K-2GQ
1884 Regimental & service records - you will need credits to view (FindMyPast)
Ernest Philbrick born 1865 St Helens, Ryde Lop, Hampshire
1891 census Ernest Philbrick born 1866 Isle Of Wight Hampshire
his occupation is Bombardier Royal Artillery
1892 possible marriage Ernest Philbrick to Mary Elizabeth Curti(s)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/2D8W-BPZ
here's a little more about Ernest Snr. born c1867 http://www.rootschat.com/links/0138l/
I can't see Ernest on the 1901 census so probably he's serving in the Boer War 1899 - 1902
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There are two sets of incomplete Merchant Navy records for a Ernest Edward Philbrick born Kronstard, South Africa 13/April/1892, on The pay to view site FindMyPast
First set, Card CR10, relating to his voyages 1921.
LLANSTEPHAN CASTLE official number 135315 signed on 25/2/21
NORMAN O/N 104042 6/5/21
HUNTSEND O/N 136828 19/9/21
Rank Trimmer
Also a small mugshot type photograph of EEP.
Merchant seamen regularly lied about their age in order to attract a higher rate of pay.
Second set, Card CR1 dated 25/4/1935 Southampton
Signed on ANDORIA STAR O/N 149837
Eyes grey, hair fair, 5ft.6 inches.
Discharge A number 1053659
Rank. Greaser.
So his MN service records are almost blank between 1921 and 1935
Could be he came ashore for that period or more likely his MN records have been lost or destroyed.
If you wish to pursue his possible records 1921-1935 just make another post.
I cannot find medal listings for EEP for the 1st or 2nd World Wars.
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Thank you all for replying. I have managed to obtain a copy of his birth certificate. His Middle name is Edward, his Father was also Ernest Edward and his Mother Alice Rebecca. He was born Kronstard, South Africa. As far as we were aware his Father was also South African but I may be wrong.
To Seaweed, He did come ashore and stayed ashore but we think it was about 1930, but it could of been earlier. We know he married my Grtx2 Nan in 1946 but had lodged with her for several years beforehand. Yes I would like to pursue the records 1921-1936.
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I have managed to obtain a copy of his birth certificate.
His Middle name is Edward, his Father was also Ernest Edward and his Mother Alice Rebecca. He was born Kronstard, South Africa.
As far as we were aware his Father was also South African but I may be wrong.
Did Ernest Snr marry in SA?
Do you have his m/c to Alice Rebecca Melville?
What's occupation is given on his son Ernest's b/c?
Do you think this could be the same Ernest Edward Philbrick?
Ernest Edward Philbrick age 33 (born c1891) South Africa, Height 5.6 weight 142
occ coal trimmer
Date of Arrival: May 19, 1924 New York Ship of Travel: Araguaya
Port of Departure: Southampton
Ernest Philbrick age 35 South Africa Ht 5.6 wt 14
occ fireman
Date of Arrival: Nov 25, 1924 New York Ship of Travel: Araguaya
Port of Departure: Southampton
Ernest Philbrick age 36 South Africa, Ht 5.6 wt 146
Fireman
Date of Arrival: Dec 18, 1924 New York Ship of Travel: Araguaya
Port of Departure: Hamilton, Bermuda
Ernest Philbrick age 35 South African Ht 5.6 wt 146
Position in ships company fireman
Date of Arrival: Dec 29, 1924 New York Ship of Travel: Araguaya
Port of Departure: Hamilton Bermuda
I can see Ernest’s 1946 marriage entry on FreeBMD
Is this his death entry ?
Mar 1963 New Forest vol 6b page 631
Ernest E Philbrick age 67 (born c 1896)
I don’t have access to look but Ancestry have these entries
England & Wales National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills & Adminstrations) 1858 – 1966
Ernest Edward Philbrick date 1963
and
UK, Incoming Passenger Lists 1878 – 1960
Ernest Philbrick departure Durban South Africa arrival Southampton
there's also a
Miss Philbrick departure Durban South Africa arrival Southampton
and
Honolulu, Hawaii, Passenger and Crew Lists, 1900-1959
Ernest Edward Philbrick
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To Seaweed, He did come ashore and stayed ashore but we think it was about 1930, but it could of been earlier. We know he married my Grtx2 Nan in 1946 but had lodged with her for several years beforehand. Yes I would like to pursue the records 1921-1936.
I think it may be difficult as it seems he was active as a seaman during the 1920's.
Your first stop is to try and obtain the crew agreement logbook for 1935 for the vessel ANDORIA STAR O/N 149837
You should be able to obtain this by filling out this form
http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/crew-lists-agreements-and-official-logs-request-form
This should tell you amongest other things the name of his last ship. You then need to find the ships official number. You need this to search for other crew agreements which are stored in the main at Maritime History Archive Newfoundland and 10% at TNA Kew.
I have little doubt that the person given by Ladyhawk is your man, onboard ARAGUAWA official number 120716 in 1924 Crew agreements available from here.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C2481080
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Hi Ladyhawk,
I have searched for a marriage between Ernest Snr and Alice but I cant find one I I presume they married over in South Africa. On Ernest Jun b/c his father is listed as being a Guard and on his marriage certificate it says he is an Army vet, Ernest Jun is stated as being either a painter or pointer (can't quite make out is its an o or an a).
Ernest Jun was apparently about 5'5 so yes it looks like those ship records are of him.
Yes that is his death record. March 1963 in the New Forest.
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Thanks Seaweed will have a look at those links.
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Kronstard is a misspelling of a Kroonstad a town in the Free State province South Africa.
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Here is a bit more about Ernest Snr. He was first married to Alice Maud Philbrick, born in Ryde England the daughter of George Edward and Sarah Philbrick. Ernest and Alice have a daughter Gertrude Sarah who dies on the 4 of Feb 1893 aged 3 months in Bloemfontein which is some 140 miles south of Kroonstad and is the capital city of the Free State Province. Alice dies aged 28 yrs on the 18 of Nov 1892 ( at child birth ?)also in Bloemfotein. On the 14 of Nov 1893 in Kroonstad Ernest snr signs receipt of monies left to him by the estates of his daughter and his wife.
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Here is a bit more about Ernest Snr. He was first married to Alice Maud Philbrick, born in Ryde England and the daughter of George Edward and Sarah Philbrick. Ernest and Alice have a daughter Gertrude Sarah who dies on the 4 of Feb 1893 aged 3 months in Bloemfontein which is some 140 south of Kroonstad and is the capital city of the Free State Province. Alice dies aged 28 yrs on the 18 of Nov 1892 ( at child birth ?)also in Bloemfotein. On the 14 of Nov 1983 in Kroonstad Ernest snr signs receipt of monies left to him by the estates of his daughter and his wife.
Thank you very much Braw, Can I ask where you found out this information? I'm guessing either Ernest snr was British after all or the first Alice travelled and met him over there. How unusual to marry another person of the same surname, or I wonder did he take on his wife's name and pretended it was actually his name when he remarried if it was 140 away from where Ernest jr was born.
Why is it you think you are getting somewhere then even more questions pop up!
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Here is a bit more about Ernest Snr.
He was first married to Alice Maud Philbrick, born in Ryde England and the daughter of George Edward and Sarah Philbrick.
Ernest and Alice have a daughter Gertrude Sarah who dies on the 4 of Feb 1893 aged 3 months in Bloemfontein which is some 140 south of Kroonstad and is the capital city of the Free State Province.
Alice dies aged 28 yrs on the 18 of Nov 1892 ( at child birth ?)also in Bloemfotein.
I'm guessing either Ernest snr was British after all or the first Alice travelled and met him over there.
How unusual to marry another person of the same surname, or I wonder did he take on his wife's name and pretended it was actually his name when he remarried if it was 140 away from where Ernest jr was born.
Mmm.. that's interesting Philbrick marrying Philbrick one of the links I sent you mentioned Ernest had married Mary Elizabeth CURTIS - no date given for his marriage
they must have assumed he married Mary Elizabeth Curtis rather than Alice Maud Philbrick
Here's some of the info. from that link http://www.rootschat.com/links/013kr/
Ernest Edward Philbrick b1867 son of Edward Philbrook and Selina Style they married 1866 Alverstoke he was christened 17 March 1867 St John, Ryde, Isle of Wight.
1871c son, age 4, Oakfield, Isle of Wight.
1881c son, age 14, Oakfield, Hampshire occ Grocer's Assistant
1891c age 25 Isle of Wight a Bombadier Royal Artillery
1892 he married Mary Elizabeth Curtis marriage recorded at Epsom Reg district Mar qtr.
Marriage entry from FreeBMD
Mar 1892 Epsom vol 2a page 3
Ernest Edward Philbrick
Female names on same page
Alice Maud Philbrick
Mary Elizabeth Curtis
this shows them to have the same surname - so maybe related in someway
you would need to look at their respective father's to see if there is a connection
- possibly brothers
Ernest Edward Philbrick b1867 his father Edward b1844 his father John mother Jane
1844 christening Edward https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JW33-NHX
Alice Maud Philbrick her father George Edward b1832 his father John mother Jane
1832 christening George https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N146-38T
1863 christening Alice https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N6PS-WL4
1871c Alice with parents https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFDG-WC1?cc=1538354
I have searched for a marriage between Ernest Snr and Alice but I cant find one I presume they married over in South Africa.
I wonder if the divorce in 1916 of Ernest Edward Philbrick and Alice Rebecca nee Melville will give you the date of their marriage
Marriage certificates are of little use to genealogists in South Africa. They do not give the names and occupations of parents. They are as difficult to get as birth certificates best chance of seeing one is if the couple got divorced, and you find a copy in the divorce records.
SOME divorce records are in the archives - search here http://www.rootschat.com/links/013ks/
Search KAB – Cape Town Archives Repository
enter surname Philbrick, click result summary
Or
Search RSA – All Archives…..
Enter surname Philbrick, click result summary
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z8w/
Ernest and Alice have a daughter Gertrude Sarah who dies on the 4 of Feb 1893 aged 3 months in Bloemfontein which is some 140 south of Kroonstad and is the capital city of the Free State Province.
Alice dies aged 28 yrs on the 18 of Nov 1892 ( at child birth ?) also in Bloemfotein
Is Gertrude Sarah born Feb 1893 Bloemfotein the daughter of Alice Maud Philbrick nee Philbrick who died Nov 1892 or Alice Rebecca nee Melville
On Ernest Jun b/c his father is listed as being a Guard and on his marriage certificate it says he is an Army vet
natz300 - What was Ernest Edward Philbrick (Jnr.) dob?
On the 14 of Nov 1983 in Kroonstad Ernest snr signs receipt of monies left to him by the estates of his daughter and his wife
Is this date correct as Ernest Snr was born c1867 that would make him 116 years old :-\
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I got the information from the Estate file of Alice Maud lodged here at the Free State archive repository. The file contained both the death notices of Alice Maud and her daughter Gertrude and noted on these documents are the place of death, age, date of death and names of parents etc and also in this file are the Executors documents. Ernest Snr inherited £13.16.0 from his daughter and £21.50.0 from his wife and signed receipt on 14/11/1893.The archive reference is:
Depot:VAB
Source:MHG
Reference:P722
Description:PHILBRICK, ALICE MAUD. MAIDEN NAME PHILBRICK. SPOUSE ERNEST EDWARD PHILBRICK.
Date:1892
Further I found the parents of Alice Maud on Ancestry.co.uk.
Name:Sarah Philbrick
spouse:George Edwd Philbrick
Birth: Abt 1829 Middelsex, England
Residence 1871: Hampshire, England
Name: George Edward Philbrick
Spouse: Sarah Philbrick
Birth: Abt 1832
Residence: 1871 Hampshire, England.
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natz300 - What was Ernest Edward Philbrick (Jnr.) dob?
Ernest Jnr DOB is 27th August 1896.
Im looking into the idea that Ernest Sn and Alice Maud were related.
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Braw thanks for that. Is or would there be any information in the divorce files of Ernest Sn and Alice Rebecca Melville on who her parents were / any other children they may of had?
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Natz, you wont find her parents names in the divorce files, her children maybe if they were minors.Your best bet would be her death notice as it would usually contain the names of the parents and the names of children. I searched our archives and the only Alice Rebecca Melville records I can find is for a Lily Alice Rebecca Jordaan (born Melville) the wife of Louis Daniel Jordaan. I dont know if this is the lady in question. Maybe Louis was her second husband and Lily a pet name . The file reference containing the death notice is:
Depot: TAB
Source:MHG
Type:LEER
System:01
Reference:2384/56
Description:Jordaan,Lily Alice Rebecca
Date:1956
Remarks: Predeceased spouse Louis Daniel Jordaan ( his death notice file dated 1946 gives her maiden name as Melville).
The www.eggsa.org web site offer a document ordering service.
Regards
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Ok Braw, thanks for all your help. Will see if I can get a copy of those.