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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: elfinblues on Friday 06 June 14 12:55 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone
It's a while since I last posted anything here, but I'm wondering if I could call on those with a little military expertise to help me understand these photos. They are pretty generic group photos, I know, and they are completely uncaptioned. There is very little there to give any hint of where they might have been taken, who is in them and so on. But it would help if someone out there who is familiar with these types of military photo could tell me what event they might signify - could the larger group one be some sort of 'passing out' celebratory picture? If so, passing out from what - initial training, perhaps, or later, more specialised training - and what might the group be - a class, a unit of some kind? My grandfather is in the photos, and he was initially an accounts clerk and later a wireless mechanic with the RAF. Vague questions, I know, but any insights that anyone could offer might help me to pinpoint these photographs to one of the known stages of my grandfather's time with the RAF. Many, many thanks in advance. Steve
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I'm surprised that there has been no response to this ::)
Do you have any idea of the dates and places of his service.
Carol
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Can anyone say what the Specialist badges denote, please? Would they be Instrument mechanic or Wireless or Radar mechanic?
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In the top picture of nine men, they mostly seem to be age thirty or over, suggesting they were technicians with previous experience before joining the RAF
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Good of you to bring this thread to rootschatter's attention Carol. :)
In the top picture of nine men, they mostly seem to be age thirty or over, suggesting they were technicians with previous experience before joining the RAF
I disagree. I think about three of them may be in their 30s, but the others look younger. A couple of them look about 15! :P
Can anyone say what the Specialist badges denote, please? Would they be Instrument mechanic or Wireless or Radar mechanic?
The OP has already said that his grandfather is in the photos and that he was a Wireless Mechanic.
Steve, further to Carol's question, do you have your grandfather's service record?
I'm sure that the military experts will be along soon to offer their opinions on your photos. Good luck.
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The top photo of nine men could have been taken at the end of a course for training Radar Technicians.
Also note the difference in hats worn by some of the men.
We have been discussing caps in another thread. It is interesting that those informal caps (known as Forage Caps by RAF men) are still being worn in 1940.
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I see no specialist badges on either of the photographs. These were/are worn about 9-12 inches from the top of the sleeve. The badge at the top of the sleeve is the standard RAF eagle. Close beneath is a smaller badge which may be the small rectangular cloth VR worn by RAFVR other rank personnel up to 1943. (Most war time members were RAFVR)
They are certainly photographs of courses of instruction of some sort but I see no indication of what the subject might have been. The lack of rank and trade badges suggest pre-trade training.
maxD
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Good of you to bring this thread to rootschatter's attention Carol. :)
In the top picture of nine men, they mostly seem to be age thirty or over, suggesting they were technicians with previous experience before joining the RAF
I disagree. I think about three of them may be in their 30s, but the others look younger. A couple of them look about 15! :P
Can anyone say what the Specialist badges denote, please? Would they be Instrument mechanic or Wireless or Radar mechanic?
You cannot be serious (to coin a phrase from tennis) Very unlikely to be as young as 15.
men and women engaged on Radar work were told that it was extremely secret.
The OP has already said that his grandfather is in the photos and that he was a Wireless Mechanic.
Steve, further to Carol's question, do you have your grandfather's service record?
I'm sure that the military experts will be along soon to offer their opinions on your photos. Good luck.
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It is probable that the poster knows how old his grandfather was when the war began so discussion of the age of the men in the photos is surely irrelevant?
As Ruskie has pointed out, the poster knows that grandfather was an accounts clerk then a wireless mechanic, so guessing that they are instrument mechanics or radar mechanics/technicians doesn’t help at all. The photos hold no evidence of trades at all.
Based on the lack of rank badges and trade badges my suggestion (and without solid evidence it can only be a suggestion) is that the larger group is the earliest and is of men during or following their basic training. Clues are the instructor in the centre (there is a trace of a rank badge to be seen) is wearing strip webbing, often worn by weapon training or drill instructors and that many of the men have the look of new recruits, a bit rabbit in the headlights.
The smaller group photo follows the larger and could well be a basic trade course for one of the trades followed by the grandfather. The men are clearly now confident wearing their uniforms and are more relaxed than before, exactly what happens when they “have got some in”.
So – early in grandfather’s service and, if the small patch beneath the eagle is a VR, then before 1943.
And for the avoidance of doubt, it was normal for folk to talk about being in the RAF even if, technically, they were in the RAFVR as were the majority of those who joined once the war had begun. It made no difference.
maxD
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Elfinblues, My uncle was a radar specialist during WW2, and I have read many books about the RAF during WW2 and been to many museums.
May I ask you what was the trade or profession of your Grandfather before the war, and also after the war, please?
My research indicates that many men recruited into the RAF on Wireless and Radar had been employed in similar fields in Industry by such companies as the BBC, EMI, GEC, Mullard BTH etc.
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Good of you to bring this thread to rootschatter's attention Carol. :)
In the top picture of nine men, they mostly seem to be age thirty or over, suggesting they were technicians with previous experience before joining the RAF
I disagree. I think about three of them may be in their 30s, but the others look younger. A couple of them look about 15! :P
Can anyone say what the Specialist badges denote, please? Would they be Instrument mechanic or Wireless or Radar mechanic?
You cannot be serious (to coin a phrase from tennis) Very unlikely to be as young as 15.
men and women engaged on Radar work were told that it was extremely secret.
The OP has already said that his grandfather is in the photos and that he was a Wireless Mechanic.
Steve, further to Carol's question, do you have your grandfather's service record?
I'm sure that the military experts will be along soon to offer their opinions on your photos. Good luck.
I found your comment hiding in amongst the quote.
Yes. I was joking. ;D
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Elfinblues, My uncle was a radar specialist during WW2, and I have read many books about the RAF during WW2 and been to many museums.
May I ask you what was the trade or profession of your Grandfather before the war, and also after the war, please?
My research indicates that many men recruited into the RAF on Wireless and Radar had been employed in similar fields in Industry by such companies as the BBC, EMI, GEC, Mullard BTH etc.
I am not sure why you are asking about occupations - Steve is looking for suggestions as to what was going on the two photographs he posted. How will knowing his grandfather's occupation help you determine what event the photos might relate to? :-\
If you read Steve's initial post he does say "My grandfather is in the photos, and he was initially an accounts clerk and later a wireless mechanic with the RAF." Post war he does not specify an occupation, but how can that be relevant? :-\
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The top photograph does indicate some sort of badge immediately below the eagle but it's too indistinct to see exactly what it is. The "sparky's" badge (a fist with zigzag lines coming from it) was worn, as another contributor has said, several inches below the eagle. When I graduated from Hereford, the course photo was taken before rank badges were sewn on, so my guess is that this is graduation from either basic, or trade, training.
Forage caps were still worn in the 1990s.
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It could be a course on new equipment.
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As Steve's grandfather was "initially an accounts clerk" and subsequently a wireless mechanic, I reckon this is a graduation photo from either basic training or trade training after the accounts course. On graduation from trade training, you'd be promoted to LAC (Leading Aircraftman). I would be very surprised if he was demoted back to AC (Aircraftman) on remustering to wireless mechanic.
Incidentally, is Steve still around or are we all talking to the ether, in which case the discussion is academic!
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Thank you GMCT for your sensible comments and essentially confirming my thoughts, precisely how I saw the progression and the absence of rank and trade badges. You may wish to look for the small square VR badge which went under the eagle until 1943, not clearly visible but the right size and the right place. There was also a "A" for Auxiliary.
I have PM'd the OP in the hope that we hear how he rates our efforts (or some of them).
maxD
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Good Luck with that one then Max...he has several topics that he has not returned to..unless of course he is not getting email notifications.
Carol
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Thanks Carol. He was on the site yesterday so is either overlooking his threads or not getting notifications, can the mods email direct?
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When I was at RAF Duxford I was discussing WW2 equipment with some other service colleagues.
They ventured the observation that German equipment in aircraft was "built to last" but they failed to take into account that much of the equipment would Not last very long in battle conditions. The British equipment took that life expectancy into account .
Aircraft Battle Damage Repairs is an important discipline in the ability of Air Forces to survive and Win.
Note to the Original poster: Your Grandfather performed an important part in an organisation that played a very important part in WW2, you can be very proud of his contribution.
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They can identify if his notifications are turned off and then send him a PM.
Carol
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The op, Steve/elfinblues, started this topic in 2014 and Treetotal resurrected it recently.
The op should have received an email notification of the 1st reply but won't have received anymore if it was missed because notifications are set to "instantly but only for the 1st reply"
I see MaxD has already sent a pm on the 7th after Steve was last online on the 6th.
Steve/elfinblues isn't a prolific poster here and may have things going on in his day to day life which have, unfortuately, prevented his return to us again not realising there has been a flurry of activity on this topic.
I know you are all eager to know what his thoughts are but maybe send another pm at the weekend if he doesn't return rather than bombard him with pms between now and then.
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he has several topics that he has not returned to..unless of course he is not getting email notifications.
The notifications are set up and are going out to elfinblues, maybe they are on holiday at the moment ???
Regards
Sarah
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Thank you Mesdames, wise counsel indeed. I shall wait with patience.
maxD
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Hello everyone. I'm the original poster, and thank you all for your thoughts and comments. My apologies for being "out of the loop" but after my original post slipped "under the radar" I hadn't checked back on it since. And as Dawnsh correctly assumed, life is busy for me, so my opportunities to come on board the forum are usually few and far between. I squeeze my family history activities in between my day-to-day job, looking after our two young children, and all the other usual responsibilities that come with having a young family. So, huge thanks to you all for your comments and my apologies for having been absent from the discussion. Please know that this is the result of circumstance rather than rudeness.
I'll try and respond to all the queries that have arisen.
My grandfather's dates and places of service include Kemble, Innsworth, Penarth between 1940 and early 1942, after he joined up and was serving as an Accounts Clerk. From early 1942 to May 1943, he was undergoing wireless training, based at Bishopbriggs and Bolton. Thereafter there was, I understand, a short transit period in Blackpool before he went by troopship to India and on to Burma to serve as a wireless mechanic.
My grandfather was 26 when the war began.
Scouseboy - His trade before the war was 'accountant', which is why he initially served as an accounts clerk. He soon tired of it, though, and wanted something more challenging - hence the training to become a wireless mechanic. He was, I believe, the exception rather than the rule in being accepted onto the demanding wireless training course without any background in radio or a university degree, but he was an intelligent man and very capable. After the war he went back to being an accountant for a while, but within a few years was heading the sales division of a pest control firm! A varied life. And thanks very much for your comments about being proud of my grandfather - I am, very. He was always frank about how he was lucky and "got off lightly" in comparison to many of his comrades in the Far East, but having since done some reading about the role of the RAF in Burma and the role played by wireless mechanics, I now have a better appreciation of the role he would have played.
So, to the photos themselves. Am I correct in thinking that consensus is that the larger, bottom photo is likely to be a photo marking his "intake's" graduation from basic training and that the smaller, top photo is probably one that signals his graduation either from trade training as an accounts clerk or as a WM? With my comparatively little knowledge, I would say that this sounds perfectly probable. My only doubt stems from the rather insalubrious-looking background for the top photo - in front of a row of houses would seem an odd setting for a formal graduation photo (but perhaps not, given the situation and the times?).
With best wishes to all,
Steve
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Thank you for getting back to us.
Blackpool was a big centre for both the RAF. And the US Air Force. And also aircraft factories in Lancashire.
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Steve - re the "unsalubrious" background - it's very similar to one of the photos we have in the museum, where the orphans were lined up outside the photographer's shop window. If that is the case, it then begs the question of why didn't they use the station photographer....
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Thank you for getting back to us Steve and for the interesting additional information. Yes, I believe the consensus is large group basic, smaller group later trade course which, while not being able to put day and date to them, fits in quite nicely somewhere in the early part of your grandfather's career.
You first posted in 2014, one wonders when you would have received an answer if Treetotal hadn't spotted it in 2016 :)
Alls well that.....
maxD
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Well, maxD, I am still working on writing up a book about my family (which includes a long chapter about my grandfather), so there's still ample opportunity for me to make use of the clarifications that you've all helped me with - so, thank you! All does end well.