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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Knight-Sunderland on Thursday 05 June 14 21:04 BST (UK)
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http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1399
I'm sad to report that the Sunderland Registrars Indexes, which I use almost every day, have removed the ability to learn the date of death of any resident who died between 1837-2007. They have vastly changed the service, merging the indexes with the application for a certificate service and in the process removing the ability to view the death dates. With this they have lost the title of having the best resource of any other registrar in England.
The ability to view death dates for residents who died between 1985-2005 was introduced in December 2009. This was expanded to include 1837-1970 in February 2010. Things were also looking up more recently when they added the deaths for 1971-1984 in December 2013. It was, as one of the librarians in the local studies told me, one of genealogy's "best kept secrets". Now it has gone, I am absolutely gutted. I will be writing to the registrars in a last ditch attempt to get the service re-introduced, but by the looks of the new website, they won't be implementing it again any time soon.
It was a free service, so I can't whinge too much, plus I got 4 and a half years worth of use out of it. But it is a great shame in today's digital age to see the effort to get more records and data online taking a step back, rather than forward.
RIP to my favourite genealogical resource of all time. :'(
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The index's are still there K/S when you go to the site press to order certificates and just continue to answer the box questions and proceed and the index's appear
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The index's are still there K/S when you go to the site press to order certificates and just continue to answer the box questions and proceed and the index's appear
The indexes remain yes, but the unique ability of having full access to all the death dates is sadly gone. :(
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I fully agree that it is a backward step, especially the absence of the B.O.R. button in the death index's
I have just e-mailed them with my views on the revamped page and I suggest anyone who is disappointed with the new look set-up does the same.It may have no effect but we can only try.
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Just stumbled upon this thread while browsing.
Although I am not familiar with the site, my immediate thought was .... Are the changes and omissions due to a plan to charge for viewing records which used to be freely available? The site old-maps comes to mind.
Or perhaps their database has been purchased by a pay to view company? There was another small company which provided death/burial information (whose name escapes me), who used to charge literally pennies to view a record. They were bought out by findmypast several years ago.
It just seems suspicious to me that a site would reduce what is available to view ..... :-\
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Hi
The index in question is the Local Register Office index of Births, Marriages and Deaths and enables people to order certificates for Registrations held by Sunderland Register Office rather than the GRO. In some cases Local Register Offices have put their Indexes online themselves and others have allowed the Indexes to be put on various UKBMD site such as CheshireBMD. I haven't heard of any other Local Office supplying date of death on their index, I know that in at least one other case a new Superintendent Registrar insisted that some details be removed from the online index (from memory mothers maiden name for births pre 1911 and age at death from 1837) perhaps someone with contact in the Local Office could ask why this change was made.
Andy
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Hello,
Just emailed the council, they say they are planning to reinstate the ability to view the death dates in the very near future. :)
Jack
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Hi, I have received similar information that the BoR button in the death index's are to return
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Although I am not familiar with the site, my immediate thought was .... Are the changes and omissions due to a plan to charge for viewing records which used to be freely available? The site old-maps comes to mind.
Ruskie, this is the site in question http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1399
As Andy says, it's the local Register Office, as opposed to the GRO
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Thanks for that Jen.
My slightly unrelated comment was due to being concerned that the big boys might be swallowing up the small fry, but see that this is not the case in this instance. :)
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Unfortunately 5 months after receiving the emails from Sunderland Council saying that they would reinstate the BOR button in the near future to enable searchers to pin point actual death dates ,this has not yet happened and I now have my doubts that this feature will return. Very disappointed ! maybe more searchers who used this feature BOR button to identify death dates should snow them under with requests for its return.
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Hi everyone,
I'm looking for help with http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1399. I've been trying to get to the BMD indexes for weeks, without success.
If I use Edge, I get a message that the browser isn't supported.
If I use Internet Explorer, I get 'There was a problem processing your request. We have been notified of the problem and we will investigate the issue as soon as possible.'
I've e-mailed the office but, so far, no response.
Does anyone know what the problem is. Is there, perhaps, a new link to the registers.
Thanks.
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They are supposed to be having problems with the site which they say they are trying to resolve, this has been going on for months and is just typical of Sunderland Council. Very lucky if you get a reply from them and if you do it is the same response time and time again.
It would be interesting to know just how much income they have lost with the site being down with people who live outside Sunderland wanting to purchase certificates online.
Anyone looking to use this site do not hold your breath as you could be in for a very long wait.
Would anyone from the Registrars like to comment?
Ryhopelad
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Hi Vivsimm I got a reply from Sunderland Customer services back in October asking which browser worked with their new site set up and they just said they were working to fix the problem, it seems that no browser actually works so as Ryhope Lad said apart from obtaining dates for research work
no one can even order any certificates online
But of course they are trying to fix the problem. STILL
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Thanks, Ryhopelad and Brian1. How disappointing that Sunderland hasn't jumped on the problem yet. I felt so lucky that a huge amount of my research was in Sunderland because the BMD index was so good, and because the Registrar supplied photocopies of original marriage documents, rather than transcriptions, so that real signatures could be seen. I don't know of any other registrars that do that.
I'm really afraid that they might decide not to bother with the index any longer, as they do refer researchers to the GRO indexes. If so, we can say goodbye to original signatures.
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I've also had real problems with the site.
Id like to come to the defence of the staff, though. I've always found them to be superb. Despite my ancestors never spelling their name the same way twice, they have never let me down once and always found the cert I needed. They were very patient, prompt and professional online, by snail mail or by phone.
It might be best to try calling the office direct.
I should imagine that funds are scarce now in these days of austerity. The IT side of things is unlikely to be down to the staff in the office anyway.. I'm sure it's not because they are lazy or don't care.
Clarrie.
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I would second that, Carrie. The Sunderland staff are, indeed, wonderful. I've dealt with them many times and they've always been very helpful.
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I fully agree that each time I have visited the office for certificates the staff have been most helpful and efficient.Now though if you need a bmd certificate the staff are the one's who have to spend more time finding the correct cert as we can not now do our own pre-search.Surely it would be cost effective to quickly sort out the online problem so the public's visit to the office would be short, sweet and time saving.
Months of "we are are working to fix the problem" is not acceptable.
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Yep, like everyone else, I have experience the lack of being able to search or order certificated from Sunderland BDM :-(. I too have e-mailed to the registrar to be told it'll be back up soon.
However, over a year has passed now and this was a great resource to use.
I wonder if you can order certificates via Local Studies, though I can easily loose hours in there
researching and I just don't have that long on my lunch break to do it.
The great thing is about this resource is that certificates take around 5 working days to get to you rather than 5+ weeks that GRO take !.
The only other resource I've found better than Sunderland's is the South Tyneside Register Office:
http://www.southtyneside.gov.uk/article/9966/Register-Search
So for now, we're a bit stuck using:
http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=505
So GRO or physically going there, assuming you can still order certs there.
I think I'll e-mail again but ask if you can still order certs in Local Studies.
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Just to let you know you cannot order the certificates in the actual Local Studies Library, you need to go to the Customer Service Centre it is in the same building but on the ground floor.
As mentioned in earlier messages this farce which is occurring with the BDM index is not the fault of the staff in the Registrars Office but the total incompetency of the Council.
Perhaps one day in the future a message will appear on here saying the site is up and running again.
Ryhopelad
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I don't know about Local Studies (I don't live in England), but you can still order certificates from the Sunderland Registrar in person or by telephone or e-mail at 0191 520 5553 or registrars@sunderland.gov.uk . The service is still there despite the unavailability of the BMD index.
If you can give an approximate date and some identifying info. (like name of mother or father or spouse, or age at marriage, etc.), they will do a search. They've done this for me several times, and I've been very pleased with the service.
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Sorry, Specfreak, I should have clicked on the link you provided to see that you already knew the information I posted.
The only thing I can add that might be of use is that I have always paid by credit card. I don't know if this is for out-of-country people only, but it's worth asking to save the bother of using cheques (I don't actually have any as they're hardly used these days) and money orders.
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Just to let you know you cannot order the certificates in the actual Local Studies Library, you need to go to the Customer Service Centre it is in the same building but on the ground floor.
As mentioned in earlier messages this farce which is occurring with the BDM index is not the fault of the staff in the Registrars Office but the total incompetency of the Council.
Perhaps one day in the future a message will appear on here saying the site is up and running again.
Ryhopelad
Thanks Ryhopelad, I will bear this in mind. I'm sure if I requested a cert in the Local Studies room they'd have directed me to the correct place (sorry, that wasn't meant to sound sarcastic if that's now it came across). The staff I have dealt with have been very kind and helpful. That said I already knew a few of them from my work place ;-).
Even in the Registrars office at the Civic Centre the ladies I dealt with were also kind and helpful.
The only bad experience I've had is when Royal Mail lost one of my certs and I had to make a claim.
Again, registrar help was second to none to assist with my claim.
Also the newer Microfiche readers are good because you can copy the PDF file onto your USB stick instead of having to print them out, better quality too. The only shame is that they're not digitised and you need to wade through rolls of film which is time consuming.
Also Ryhopelad, I see that you have Swinhoe/Swinney in your sig... 2 of my 3x Great Grandmothers were Swinhoes.... Margaret Maria Swinhoe (1816-1871) and Jane Swinhoe (1809-1903). A curious find that my 2x Great Grandparents were 1st cousins :-o, but I have the correct number of fingers and toes ;-).
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Sorry, Specfreak, I should have clicked on the link you provided to see that you already knew the information I posted.
The only thing I can add that might be of use is that I have always paid by credit card. I don't know if this is for out-of-country people only, but it's worth asking to save the bother of using cheques (I don't actually have any as they're hardly used these days) and money orders.
It's okay Vivsimm, I can visit in person and have done in the past. Just it was a useful resource for checking in advance. I've just been using GRO lately which is about 75p cheaper, but takes much longer. I'll probably visit during my lunch break once I identify who's certificates to order next.
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It's still not back up - getting nervous now...
I asked the local studies a few weeks ago what was going on, they said they have been badgering the IT department since the week it went down. Doesn't seem to have helped unfortunately.
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Doesn't look like it will anytime soon either :-(. I e-mailed the Registrars again and got this reply:
"Unfortunately the online service is currently unavailable and we do not have a timescale as to when this will be reinstated."
So basically, no indication when it might be online, so I fear it's lost.
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It appears that the IT lads have sorted out the problem with the indexes. Looks like the page has been deleted so it definitely is R I P.
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I found that is back on line today at the old address (URL)
Richard
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Cheers Richard I really thought we had lost this facility.
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Thanks for the heads up Richard. I just tried to order a Certificate.
It went all the way through as usual, but when I got to the payment (Final Summary)
screen it barfed :-(, saying:
"Your Session has timed out. If you did not receive an EVE- order number, you may need to start your order again"
Maybe it's just a glitch tonight in the payment system. At least searching is working, so that helps a lot.
Many thanks again.
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Thanks for the message Richard, good to see it up and running again.
Ryhopelad
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Okay, the certificate ordering system only seems to work with I.E. but not with Firefox and Chrome.
Firefox generates the following error message:
"Your Session has timed out. If you did not receive an EVE- order number, you may need to start your order again"
Chrome breaks when you try to add a certificate saying:
"Warning - no certificate has been found. Please re-enter the certificate details."
I have reported this so hopefully they can get it fixed. Although I suspect their payment gateway only works on IE so it's probably outdated.
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Hi all Not sure what is going on, but tonight I have no access again to search the BMD index's. Can anyone else try and let me know if it is still accessible or if it has been taken off again
Brian
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It says Page cannot be found
Stan
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Thanks Stan that's all I get "page not found" Will just have to keep trying to see if it comes back on as it is a great site for local bmd's
Brian
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Can someone please give me the Sunderland url for the indexes so at least I'll know I'm using the correct one, even though it's 'page not found'.
I often use http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/ and, trying that today, I discovered that Sunderland is no longer included. Now I'm nervous!!!!
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The URL is http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1399
Registration - copy certificates http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=505
Stan
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Thank you, Stan.
Vivienne
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I got a message from the Registrars this morning. They have suspended the site for further testing and to fix the errors with other browsers.
I was able to order a cert via Internet Explorer the other day, but all the others didn't work, following my reports.
They say the site will be back up as soon as possible.
I've had trouble in the past where my order was blank but they e-mailed me for the details so they could get the certificate to me. They are very helpful if you get in touch.
I think it's just a case that their site is out of date and needs updating to cater for newer browsers, especially the payment gateway.
Sorry I opened my big mouth, but hopefully they'll fix the problems and everyone can benefit.
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Just called the Registrar's office for an update. The woman I spoke to said that it is not possible to order online any more, the system was down and she did not know when (implied whether) it would be back up. This lady has helped me a lot before and was very polite and professional but couldn't be persuaded to be more specific and I didn't like to push it any more than I already had.
The only way to get certificates now is to call the call centre on 0191 5205553 and order through them. I tried and got a recorded message saying they hoped to answer my call after eight minutes, along with a lot of messages about adoption and fostering. I didn't feel very hopeful so have decided to write to the office. Call centres have never improved my quality of life...
I also hadn't realised how much I used the indexes as a resource until I couldn't any more.
:'( :'( :'(
Obviously I'd rather give the money for certificates to Sunderland than the GRO and get copies of the original but long waiting times and a call centre won't encourage people to use their service.
If anyone has an update in future please keep us all posted.
Yours depressedly,
Clarrie
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Yes, it's a real shame. As you say the officers who deal with you either on the phone or in person are very helpful and polite.
I think they just needed to disable the payment option as that's the part that was broken.
They could have left the search facility available, but perhaps a 3rd party wrote the code for it, and they not longer have a contract to fix or update it. I suspect the code is old and so doesn't work in newer browsers.
So they've chose just to close the service again.
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Hi All,
I am an ICT programmer at Sunderland City Council. I have been made aware of this blog and of an e-mail I received via the registrars regarding the online BDM system.
First off, I'd like to apologise to you all regarding the length of time it has took to get around to this problem. I hadn't actually realised that people like yourselves were using the system just to search the records database! We built the website to allow people to order copies of certificates and I was under the impression that was all it was used for, now that I know it has another use I will try and keep it available in the future.
Just a quick explanation as to why it went missing. We started to have problems getting payments through our payment portal, resulting in garbled orders, customers not being able to make a payment and customers making a payment but no order details coming through to registrars. It was getting very messy so the decision was taken to switch it off. About a month ago I switched it back on having installed some stronger validation and 'markers' in the web pages to try to find the problem. After a week we had some perfect orders and some without payment. During that time I was forwarded an e-mail from a customer who had noted that it seemed to work fine with Internet Explorer(IE) - but not other browsers (for example Chrome, Firefox etc). Based on that information I have updated the pages again. Now the system will let any browsers search the records - but will only allow IE users to purchase a certificate. This will hopefully get it back online and while it is restricted to just IE we can investigate what the issues are with the other browsers.
I have made the changes and asked the service if we can go live again this Monday (25th April 2016). I will try to visit this forum and keep you up to date with any changes - and I would really appreciate it if you have any feedback that I could use to make the service better - and if you have any information about errors you may receive when making orders.
Once again - sorry for the long delay and thanks for your patience.
Kind Regards,
H
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Thank you so much for keeping us all in the loop as to what is happening with access to the registrar's B M D Index's .This is a fantastic service and I hope you are able to get every thing back on line
Once again I thank you for this explanation
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Thanks for letting us know what is going on with the Registrar's site and hopefully everything will be up and running again soon.
The site in the past has been a great resource to myself and the other small group of volunteers who are indexing the parish records for the Local Studies Library in Sunderland. Where names can be sometimes very difficult to read on the microfilms the site allows us to cross check the names on the site with the film ensuring we are as accurate as possible in recording the information.
Ryhopelad
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GREAT NEWS. Thanks to H from Sunderland ITC the index's are back on line
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Thank you to H from Sunderland ITC for posting on here. Yet another example of the good service from individuals at Sunderland. You will make a lot of people very happy by sorting this issue out.
I'd also suggest ITC that you forward the many posts here saying how helpful the Sunderland staff are , to whoever is the Council staff member who receives praise and thanks letters from the public., so that the staff concerned can get a pat on the back for their customer service as far as roots chatters are concerned. I'm sure they'd appreciate knowing their service is appreciated by this community.
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I'd second that! It's a great service that Sunderland offers and I always try and get my certificates from them because they are so helpful.
I don't pay Council Tax to Sunderland and am also very aware that Councils are very stretched and family history cannot compete for resources with vulnerable children and adults. But I am very glad that the service is coming back and have a couple of purchases lined up!
Best wishes to all,
Clarrie
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Hi All,
I switched the service back on this morning - I hope some of you have been able to get on and access the indexes.
We are still having problems with the purchase of copy certificates as the browser identification code that I installed, which was supposed to block non-internet explorer customers, turns out to be blocking all browsers from the live site. When we tested this last week in development it worked fine, but, I tested it when I got home today and noticed it was blocking ALL browsers from making a purchase. Very frustrating. Back to the drawing board with that one!
While I am working on that, I will leave the service switched on so that the indexes are still accessible.
Thank you for all the kind words - I will pass these on to my colleagues from registrars.
I will give you an update when there is a development on the purchase of copy certificates.
Kind Regards,
H
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Good Morning All,
I have just installed a fix to the web page this morning to successfully identify the browser type. If anyone would like to purchase a copy certificate, it should now be possible IF you are using Internet Explorer (IE) as your browser.
I will check this forum again today after work for any comments. Please let me know if you were trying to purchase a copy certificate and whether you were successful or not.
Kind Regards,
H
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Oh dear, it's down again! Has this anything to do with the recent system issues that affected the entire Sunderland City Council website?
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I do believe the whole web site is only about 75% working.
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Hi All,
Yes the websites were affected by the problems that ICT had the previous week. This service should be back on sometime this coming week.
Regards,
H
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Hello H
Just like to thank you for keeping everyone informed into what is happening with the site.
Ryhopelad
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I also would like to say thanks H for keeping is in the loop
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Great news, as H said the index's are back on line
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Thanks for all your efforts H in getting the site up and running again
Ryhopelad
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Hello in Sunderland also., is there a Census in Council records for 1939/? Ruth
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Hello in Sunderland also., is there a Census in Council records for 1939/? Ruth
There was no census taken in 1939. I think you must be referring to the 1939 Register, which was taken short after the outbreak of World War 2
The 1939 Register, taken on 29 September 1939, provides a snapshot of the civilian population of England and Wales just after the outbreak of the Second World War.
The records were used to produce up-to-date population statistics and identification cards and, once rationing was introduced in January 1940, to facilitate the issuing of ration cards. Information in the Register was also used to administer conscription, and to monitor and control the movement of the population caused by military mobilisation and mass evacuation.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/
It is available online via a subscription to Findmypast. We are not allowed to do look-ups.
The original register is held by the National Archives. I should think it most unlikely that Sunderland City Council holds any copies (but I'm happy to be proved wrong).