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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: chrislin137 on Thursday 05 June 14 17:12 BST (UK)
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The first sighting of Rachel is in 1871 in Llanelli Workhouse with children Margaret b1858 Swansea, Glamorgan,William b1860 Pembrey,Carmarthenshire and Mary b1865 Llanelly, Carm.
In following censuses 1881,1891,1901 she always lived with Thomas Owen (first appearance 1881) and with daughter Mary (except in 1891) until her death in 1908. Rachel always maintained she was born in Swansea, Glamorganshire but used different districts of Morriston or Llangafelach. She also used the terminologies of widow or single. When daughter Mary married William Davies in 1887 her Father was shown as William Gray deceased. As i can find no record for William Gray which associates him with Rachel I am inclined to believe that Rachel was never married but I don't know if GRAY was her single name or pure fabrication. I can find nothing of a marriage or a birth. After 1871 both the elder children Margaret and William drop off the radar except a witness signature on Mary's Marriage Cert. of William Gray - unfortunately a fairly common Welsh name.
I can find no births for any of 3 children nor marriages or deaths for the 2 elder siblings.
If there is anybody out there who has any information to help break this impasse, which problem has now running and running, I will be truly grateful.Thanks to anyone who even takes time to read this rather long post.
Regards. Chrislin137
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there is a tree on A*****y which gives Rachel's parents as William Grey 1791-1849 and Sarah Lloyd 1791
then
1841
Morriston Llangafelach Glamorgan
William Grey 60 Rollerman Y
Sarah 50 N
Ann 23 Y
John 20 Y
Sarah 15 Y
David 10 Y
Rachael 8 Y
HO107 1419 2 235
1851
Morriston Llangafelach
Sarah Gray Head widow 60 Carmarthan Town
David son U 21 Smith Llangafelach
Rachel daughter U 18 House servant Llangefelach
HCO107 2465 326 28
so it looks like Rachel was not married when she had the children
Possibly daughter Mary entered the name of her deceased Grandfather as her father when she married???
Suz
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To Suzard
Thank you so much for your reply Suz. The information you gave has been in my research papers (except for the death date of William Grey in 1849) for sometime but my real difficulty is making a definite connection from 1851 through 1861 (no info found) to 1871 workhouse records.
Like you I am of the opinion Rachel was not married and again, think that the entry of Father on the marriage certificate of Mary relates to her Grandfather.
The other problem facing me is that in 1881 only Rachel and Mary show together(other siblings not traced) so it is nor certain they are the same as those in the 1871 workhouse records.
With this query the only hard proven facts I have is that Mary Gray married William Davies and their children were Margaretta b1888. Gladys Maud b1901, Ethel G b1904 and Richard G b1906 and descendants thereafter. In short I am only certain of information from 1881 onwards.
Suz, it is most kind of you to go to so much trouble to provide that information and does re-inforce my own lines of research. The saga continues.........
All best wishes and I hope you research goes well?
chrislin137
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Hi chrislin137
There is this 1861 census entry as a possibility:
Thomas Thomas 23 b. Kidwelly, Carmarthenshire
Rachel Thomas 27 b. Morriston, Glamorgan
Margaret Thomas 2 b. Swansea
William Thomas 2 months b. Pembrey
RG9/4115/35/37
Can't see a marriage to confirm Rachel's surname as Gray though :-\
Monica :)
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There is a potential marriage for a Rachel Thomas and a Thomas Owen though in 1st Qrt 1873 in Newcastle in Emlyn (11b/37) as a possibility if Rachel was 'married' to Thomas Thomas and was then widowed. She could have remarried under this surname of Thomas. Lots of potential Thomases around aren't there ;) Others on the page are a Mary Owens and a Joshua Evans.
As you know, common surnames and without more detail, hard to say...
Monica
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To MonicaL
Many thanks Monica for your input. It would appear from records I have been looking at that Rachel Gray and Thomas Owen(s) were never married, even though they were together for many years to 1901 at least, as he was variously noted as a lodger or single.
I can see where you are at with the 1861 census though connecting Rachel, Margaret and William with approximate correct ages and birth locations. Though I have never seen anything related to the name Thomas it is certainly a possibility worth some exploration as I am completely up against the proverbial brick wall at the moment.
Thanks again for taking the time to contact me.
Regards. Chris.
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To Chrislin137
I have also been searching for Mary Gray and hence her mother Rachel, with similar results to those given in your post of 5 June 2014. Checking for Llanelly/i workhouse (following up the Rachel in the 1871 census) brought up your post on RootsChat as well as confirmation that the admission registers etc seem not to have survived for the workhouse so I cannot try to identify further which Rachel was there at the time of the census.
I just wondered if you had had any more information since last year?
regards
LucyS17
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Hi,
Possible death for Margaret,
Margaret GRAY Mar Q 1876 Llanelly 11a 456
Age: 17
Regards,
Daisy
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To LucyS17
Thanks for your contact. Sorry for the delay in replying. Since last year I have been in contact with another researcher, Philip, on another site. He and I had the same problems but were approaching it from opposite directions. I have put together all the information now to hand.
Rather long account I'm afraid but it may be helpful and point in other directions. You have the same information as me about the admission registers.
Here goes!
Hello again Philip.
I have put together a bit of a saga following, as much for my own benefit as well as to concur with your findings. I went through my old research papers and found that I had looked at the
Thomas Thomas (yes, not a typo - really Thomas Thomas - re 1861 census notes) issue some four years ago but did not go further as I was unconvinced as I could not make a connection. However, after you contacted me I realised that your reasoning was pretty compelling and am now inclined to go along with you. I have revisited a number of old lines and whilst nothing very much really new has come up I am pretty sure that what is now on the table is as good as it gets. Unless in the future some other evidence surfaces I believe Rachel will always be an enigma but it is something I am now happy to put to bed.
The (perceived) life of Rachel Gray/Grey
It would appear she was the 6th child of William Grey born 1791 in Llangyfelach, where he died in December 1849, and Sarah Lloyd born 1791 in Carmarthen. They were married on 2nd April 1815 at Swansea St Mary, Glamorganshire in their parish of St Mary SSEA.
Their children were William 1815, Anne 1818, John 1821, Sarah 1826, David 1831 and Rachel 1833.
The only baptism found is for Sarah on 19th June 1826 at the Myndd-Bach Meeting-House recorded on page 26 record RG4/3497 Film no. 0813541.
Myndd-Bach & Bethel Independent was at Llangyfelach & Llamsamlet, Glamorgan, Wales. It would be non-conformist and on-line records could have missed the other baptisms even if they did take place.
1841 Census lists all above except William who at 26 would have most likely married and left home.
!851 Census lists Sarah as a widow age 60, son David age 21 and daughter Rachel 18 both unmarried.
1861 Census draws a complete blank on Rachel Gray but there is a record for Rachel Thomas, the married wife of Thomas Thomas in Pembrey Llanelli Carmarthenshire. There are 2 children, Margaret 2 years born Swansea and William 0 years born Pembrey. Both are of the right ages and birthplaces to tie up with the 1871 Census when Rachel becomes Rachel Gray.
Cannot find any marriage record to Thomas Thomas. Nor can a death record or divorce be found.
There are no birth records for the children to be found again.
Too many co-incidences for it not to be Rachel but there will always be doubt until a connection can be established.
!871 Census shows Rachel Grey in the Llanelli Workhouse with the two children as in 1861 with birth dates and birthplaces the same. There is now a 3rd child recorded as Mary aged 6 years born in Carmarthenshire. Again there are too many co-incidences for it not to be this Rachel but again there is no direct connection to 1861 so there is a remaining doubt.
1881 Census shows Rachel Gray as single with Thomas Owen also single and a daughter Mary of the right age and birthplace. Again there is no definitive link to the records preceding.
From here on their connection to living descendants is proven (My Wife's family.)
Mary Gray married William Davies in 1887 and died in 1908, two years after her Mother Rachel.
On her marriage certificate she names her deceased Father as William Gray, a copper worker but I believe this to be her Grandfather.
One of the witnesses is a William Gray, possibly her brother, but it is a fairly common name.
From all this there are many unanswered questions and possibilities:
1. She never married but took the name Thomas but dispensed with it by 1871.
2. She may always have been known as Gray but the 1861 census used Thomas for convenience or census taker’s error.
3. She married, parted then reverted to her single name for whatever reason. Acrimony?
Criminality? (but no evidence of this found).
4. All the children may have not had the same father but Thomas Thomas could certainly been father to all three.
5. She did not tell the children their birth surname but unlikely as if with the same father Margaret would have been 8 years old when Mary was born in 1865/6 and would have been aware.
My own view is I think her relationship with Thomas Owen is a clue as to the way she lived her life. She was with him for many years but never married nor took his name. Nor did any of her or the greater family seem too good at recording life events.
There is one line of enquiry only touched upon so far.
There were large copper works in Baltimore USA in the 1840s to 1890s. Workman from Swansea and Llanelli emigrated to secure good jobs over there and in turn recruited hundreds of other Welsh smelter workers. Did perhaps Thomas Thomas go abroad? As working in a copper works was very hazardous at that time did he die in America or simply desert Rachel? That might account for why she and the children might have ended up in the workhouse.
If anything should come up in the future I will of course let you know.
I do hope this helps and wish you more success in the future.
Kind Regards
Chris
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To Daisypetal
Thank you very much for your information on Margaret Gray. It is something I been wondering for about some time but as with all other lines of enquiry no firm connection has been made. She did drop off the radar early on so it could well be her record. I have never been able to find a marriage record or any other reference to her. That said, the son William also disappears from view with no census, death or marriage record found, unless it was he who was a witness at sister Mary's wedding.
The family as a whole seem not too have been very forthcoming in official records so I think there will always be doubts for me.
Thanks again.
Best wishes
Chris.
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To Daisypetal & Chrislin137
Thank you so much for the further info., especially for the very detailed summary for Rachel.
I shall follow up the possible death for Margaret. I am also looking again at William & hope to find out a little more, even if Rachel herself remains a bit elusive.
regards
LucyS
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I went poking around ...
Rachel Gray is listed as a housekeeper when she was living with Thomas Owens in 1881. What if she was widowed, ended up in the workhouse and was placed as a housekeeper with Thomas.
Rachel's Margaret may have had a middle name James (Swansea birth reg.) Mother's maiden name? or father's mother's maiden name?
Did find the following:
Rachel James
England and Wales Non-Conformist Record Indexes
Name: Rachel James
Event Type: Baptism
Christening Date: 27 Jun 1832
Christening Place: Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire
Father's Name: Josia James
Mother's Name: Mary James
Is this your Rachel? How complete are the Non-conformist records?
Edit: Appears to be Methodist church records you need to locate...
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To dishap
Thanks for your input and the time taken to gather the information. Unfortunately this is not the Rachel I am seeking. My posting of the 29th May explains her lineage after 1881.
It is gratifying how so many people pull together in this game to help each other to try and find answers.
I hope your own research is going well?
Kind Regards
Chris.