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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: treehunter on Thursday 22 May 14 12:51 BST (UK)
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Looking for birth and marriage of John Hamilton Williaim Minker Thomson
He may have been born in Scotland about 1840ish.
He married Mary Ann Mills she was from Plymouth born 1849 Died 1887
John was a merchant seaman
They had a son in 1887 in Plymouth.
Thank you
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Hi
Minker?Minter?
? Birth Mar 1887 Plymouth 5b 272 Frederick Minter Thomson
Ray
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Thats the son he was taken in by another family when his mum died
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When and where did they marry?
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Has John been found in any census?
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Thats it i dont know >:( Being Mary and the son was born in Plymouth its could be there.
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There is one person with the son on 2 trees on ancrusty.
R
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No havent got him on census. But did find Frederick with another family
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This 1872 marriage looks possible - have you looked at it?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/2DL5-TPJ
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Yes one is the lady i am helping with this. And she has been in touch with the other person but didnt get back to her
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He married Mary Ann Mills she was from Plymouth
Sorry, missed the bit about looking for the marriage.
Read the above and thought you must have it!
There is no obvious marriage on freebmd. So, it could have been in Scotland (what makes you say he was born there?), or abroad, or they never actually married.
Modified to add - avm has found a possible marriage in 1872. Looks good.
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That marriage in 1872 we have got but its a Sarah Jane Northmore and it would make Jonh born in 1850
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Maybe he didnt marry Mary Ann Mills because he was already married to Sarah Northmore . . . . . . . . . . :o
(Why couldnt he be born in 1850? Where did the 1840 birth year that you quote come from?)
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1872 or Mary Ann Harvey
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Where did the "Hamilton MINKER" bit come from?
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Its the lady i am doing it for gave me it. On Frederick birth its has Mary Ann Mills thats why lady went by that. Yes i said she may have been married still and not married Mary.
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Who was the informant at Mary Anns death in 1887?
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Did you get Mills from son's birth cert? If Mary Ann had been married to a Harvey and widowed she would remarry in late husband's name
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Its on Frederick birth and Mary anns death cert.
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It was John who reg Mary Ann death
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It does look as though the other man on the page, William Henry Gerry, married Mary Ann Harvey (at least he later appears with a wife Mary Ann), leaving Sarah Jane Northmore for John. As has been said, if he was lawfully married to Sarah it may explain why there's no marriage found to Mary Ann Mills.
I am still unclear as to whether John or Mary Ann nee Mills have been found in any census, and where the expected c1840 birthdate for John comes from.
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Yes and haveing so many name which are all from Scotland thats why we think he may have been born there. He could have been on ship when census were taken and if he married Mary it would be between census that they did had Frederick and Mary died few mouths after have Frederick
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A possible child of John & Sarah Jane:
John William Northmore Thomson, 1874: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCS7-8ND
Added: and sadly a corresponding death aged 0, Sep qtr 1874.
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Yes and haveing so many name which are all from Scotland thats why we think he may have been born there. He could have been on ship when census were taken and if he married Mary it would be between census that they did had Frederick and Mary died few mouths after have Frederick
He "may" have been born anywhere, and he "could have been" anywhere on the censuses.
We are trying to establish what facts you already have, so we can try and find out what DID happen.
When John registers the baby's birth and Mary's death, what exact name does he use for himself?
What address are they at then?
Where did you get the 1840 birth year from?
Have you found him on any census?
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Thank you for that i will tell lady and she can get cert.
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Frederick birth cert 13th Feb 1887 dad John Hamilton William Minker Thomson Mum Mary Ann Mills
Address 44 Morley Place Plymouth
On Mary Ann death its Mary Ann Thomson died 11th May 1887 John Hamilton William Minker Thomson registered it. address 44 Morley Place Plymouth
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A possible child of John & Sarah Jane:
John William Northmore Thomson, 1874: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCS7-8ND
Added: and sadly a corresponding death aged 0, Sep qtr 1874.
parents John William & Sarah Jane resident 80 Exeter st. fathers occupation Seaman
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Frederick married about 1910 address 21 Martin ? St Plymouth dont know where she got info from.
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Could this be a sister of John's?
Jane Elizabeth Minter Thompson, 1841: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NRCV-6HV
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Thank you i will give the info to her plus will have a look myself.
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The Gravesend family might be a red herring but worth a look given the "Minter" name for Jane.
Children I can find for George Motley Thompson & Elizabeth Sarah, all baptised at Gravesend per Familysearch as follows:
1831: John Henry
1833: Joseph Norwood
1836: Edward James
1841: James Mathews
1841: Jane Elizabeth Minter
1847: Ann Sophia Brookes (birth reg as Ann Sophia Brooker Thompson, Mar qtr 1844)
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This might be that George and Elizabeth, in 1841, thus a few months before Janes birth
Gravesend
George Thompson 40 black m (?? Blacksmith??) Y
Elizabeth 39 y
Elizabeth 20 y
Joseph 7 y
Edward 5 y
James 2 y
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Thank you again. Looks like going to be busy tonight
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And 1851 ( the occupation must have been Block m, short for blockmaker, in 1841)
1851
5 Pleasant Row Gravesend
George M 65 Mast Block Maker bn Aylesford Kent
Elizabeth 52 bn Greenhithe
Elizabeth Paine dtr widowed 29 bn G'end
Joseph Thompson 18
Jane 9
Ann 7
William Paine grandson 5
No sign of JohnHamilton Minter William etc. But one does wonder if there is a connection somewhere ..... If so maybe further back - Minter reappearing in Georges line with his dtr Jane, and in x's line with your John.
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lizdb I wonder where John was then?
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lizdb I wonder where John was then?
The son John Henry may have died young (he's not with them in 1841) or I suppose he may be the Henry John Thompson who married in Gravesend in Mar qtr 1851.
At the moment we can't link your John to this family. It really has to be a priority to find him in a census so as to ascertain a birthplace and likely birthdate for him.
Other thoughts:
Looking for Sarah Jane Thomson nee Northmore (b I think 1853 Plymouth) and any surviving children of their marriage in & after 1881 may be instructive.
Merchant seaman records for John?
A death for John?
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That is the question! We havent found John on any censuses.
As avm said, the Gravesend family may be a red herring, but worth pursuing to see.
Censuses suggest there is also a Henry Thompson, a few years younger than George, also born Aylesford, maybe he is a brother to the George. Married to Roseanna/Susanna, a barge builder.
(Sorry, avm has already replied but I'll post anyway)
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I am going to TNA at Kew next week as their have the records there. I have the number i have to get them. So hoping it tell me bit more.
John may have died over seas or at sea
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Another thought to throw into the mix.
Given the "Hamilton" middle name for John, could this be another child for him & Mary Ann, preceding Frederick?
Ethel Mary THOMSON, born 22 Oct 1881 & baptised St Peter, Plymouth 10 Nov 1881
Parents: Hamilton (a sailor) & Mary Anne, of 6 Cambridge Lane W (Christ Church parish).
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Frederick birth cert 13th Feb 1887 dad John Hamilton William Minker Thomson Mum Mary Ann Mills
Address 44 Morley Place Plymouth
On Mary Ann death its Mary Ann Thomson died 11th May 1887 John Hamilton William Minker Thomson registered it. address 44 Morley Place Plymouth
44 Morley Place is where Frederick was in 1891 with Henry Briggs Dennis and his wife Phoebe (nee King), have you investigated this couple who in the next census have adopted him :-\
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avm228 Thank you worth a look familyseach are still at TNA at Kew so will see if they have film for it.
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rosie99 I will see if lady has looked into it. Thank you
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This might be Mary Ann in 1881 - though pushing it a bit for her to have had another child in October 1881
RG11 2195 129 34
46 Wolsden Street, Plymouth St Andrew
Mary Thompson 28 wife of seaman bn Plymouth
Mary A 2mths
(She is indexed as "wife of hawker" on Ancestry, but on the image ot is the household above that has the hawker, and the image for her is wife of seaman)
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Ethel Mary THOMSON, born 22 Oct 1881 & baptised St Peter, Plymouth 10 Nov 1881
Parents: Hamilton (a sailor) & Mary Anne, of 6 Cambridge Lane W (Christ Church parish).
Encouragingly she appears to marry as Ethel Mary Mills Thomson, 25 (to William John Crute, also aged 25) on 10 Apr 1906 at St Paul, Stonehouse.
Her father: John William Thomson, merchant sailor.
Her residence at time of marriage: 1 Strand St, Stonehouse.
Witnesses: J.W. Thomson, F. Smith.
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avm228 thank you thats looks good.
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That is looking good, avm, Im liking the reference to Mills.
I am going off the Mary Ifound in 1881, as here she is (probably) in 1891, and her husband is Benjamin.... but strangely, she is in KENT!
1891
Cliffe Creek, Watch Vessel, stationary abode
Benjamin T Thompson 38 commisioned boatman bn Cornwall
Mary 33 bn Plymouth
Mary A 10 bn Plymouth
Thomas 5 bn Devonport
Daniel 2 bn Norfolk
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I am going off the Mary Ifound in 1881, as here she is (probably) in 1891, and her husband is Benjamin.... but strangely, she is in KENT!
1891
Cliffe Creek, Watch Vessel, stationary abode
Benjamin T Thompson 38 commisioned boatman bn Cornwall
Mary 33 bn Plymouth
Mary A 10 bn Plymouth
Thomas 5 bn Devonport
Daniel 2 bn Norfolk
This couple could be Benjamin Thomas Thompson/Mary Josephine Hennessy (marr Dec qtr 1877 Plymouth shows them on the same page).
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Here is Ethel in 1891
Manningtree Essex
H/H of Charles and Elizabeth Porter and their family
Ethel Thomson 9 visitor bn Plymouth
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I did wonder if this was the Porters marriage (clutching at straws) :-\
Marriages Mar 1865
Flory Robert
Jones Susanna Elizabeth
Porter Charles
Thomson Sarah Elizabeth
Tendring 4a 253
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I did wonder if this was the Porters marriage (clutching at straws) :-\
Marriages Mar 1865
Flory Robert
Jones Susanna Elizabeth
Porter Charles
Thomson Sarah Elizabeth
Tendring 4a 253
Looks promising, and Robert Flory appears to have married Susanna:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFFT-FHM
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Anyone got the 1891 reference for the Porter household?
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RG 12 1403 164 14
Charles Porter 53 chimney sweep
Elizabeth 43
Charles 27 fisherman
Ada 17
George 7
Ethel Thomson visitor 9 bn Plymouth
Everyone else bn Manningtree
From ages, looks like Elizabeth may be a second marriage.
Cant find them in 1881 so far
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It looks as though Charles Porter may in fact have been born in Lawford, Essex in 1838 (parents Jasper, also a chimney sweep, & Susanna) & that the family had moved to Manningtree by 1851.
If so it may be that a Lawford birthplace, rather than Manningtree, appears in some records.
This Charles is still with parents in 1861 as an unmarried fisherman.
1871 at "Quay", Manningtree: he's a fisherman, 32 b Lawford. Wife Elizabeth is 24 b Dedham. Children are Elizabeth 6, Charles 5, Minnie 2, Lucy 1mo.
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Sorry havent got back as had phone call
Thank you for all your help i wil ring lady tonight and see if she may have anymore info
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Sorry I have switched back to John, Could you call a Master of a boat a seaman :-\
1901 census has John W. Thomson age 50 and married born Harwich, Essex - Master of 'Emma of Plymouth' with crew of one James Larsen. They are moored in Salcombe. Can only see him on later census though.
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Sorry I have switched back to John, Could you call a Master of a boat a seaman :-\
Yes :)
1901 census has John W. Thomson age 50 and married born Harwich, Essex - Master of 'Emma of Plymouth' with crew of one James Larsen. They are moored in Salcombe. Can only see him on later census though.
Excellent news. Essex-born is looking good!
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Manningtree and Lawford are very close.
A possibility for 1871
On vessel "Penelope"
Charles Sporten unm 33 engineers servant bn Lawford
Not very sure of that, as we would expecthim to be married, and Sporten/Porter?
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A possibility for 1871
On vessel "Penelope"
Charles Sporten unm 33 engineers servant bn Lawford
Not very sure of that, as we would expecthim to be married, and Sporten/Porter?
No, the 1871 for Charles & Elizabeth Porter I think is RG10/1681/7/7.
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So could be Essex then, next time i go to the record centre there in few weeks will see if got film for that marriage. Thanks
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Re Charles' wife Elizabeth, this person may be worth finding in 1861:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M7H9-NH8
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A possibility for 1871
On vessel "Penelope"
Charles Sporten unm 33 engineers servant bn Lawford
Not very sure of that, as we would expecthim to be married, and Sporten/Porter?
Thanks - yes that one makes sense. And ages are better too. Think 1881 has then somewhat wayward.
No, the 1871 for Charles & Elizabeth Porter I think is RG10/1681/7/7.
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Re Charles' wife Elizabeth, this person may be worth finding in 1861:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M7H9-NH8
She has got a brother called MINTER Thompson ;D
living Manningtree
John Thompson 46 BORN Harwich
Sarah Thompson 33
Elizabeth Thompson 13
Minter Thompson 9
Ann Maria Thompson 7
Ellen Thompson 5
Polly Thompson 3
Thomas Thompson 4
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Re Charles' wife Elizabeth, this person may be worth finding in 1861:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M7H9-NH8
She has got a brother called MINTER Thompson ;D
Eureka ;D ;D
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Re Charles' wife Elizabeth, this person may be worth finding in 1861:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M7H9-NH8
Its RG9 1095 24 14
Full details coming up - but guess what? One of household is called Minter! We're on tbhe right track!
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:) :) :)
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1861
Manningtree
John Thomson 46 bricklayer bn Harwich
Sarah 33 bn Brightlingsea
Elizabeth 13 bn Dedham
Minter 9 bn Manningtree
Ann Maria 5 bn Mistley
Ellen 5 bn Lawford
Dolly 3 bn manningtree
Thomas 4 mths bn Mann'ree
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Birth
Jul/Aug/Sep 1851
Tendring
Ref 12 270
John Hamilton Thompson
I think this could be "Minter" from the 1861, and could be your guy!
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lizdb Oh hope it is :) She will be so pleased.
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I think this could be John & Sarah's marriage
June qtr 1846
Hoy Sarah Elizabeth
Thomson John
Lexden &c 12 191
and their daughter Elizabeth's birth reg
September qtr 1846
Thomson Sarah Elizabeth
Lexden & 12 127
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Young Elizabeth is enumerated in Dedham in 1851 as Elizabeth Thompson, 4 b Dedham, granddaughter of 84 yr old widowed pauper needlewoman Elizabeth Green b St Osyth.
Tracing the "Green" connection may help confirm the family line.
NB Given the 80 year age gap between the Elizabeths it may be that the youngster is a great-granddaughter rather than a granddaughter.
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Here are the Thomsons (other than young Elizabeth) in 1851, a few months before the birth of John Hamilton/Minter:
1851 census: HO107/1780/264/25
Mistley Street, Mistley
John THOMSON Head Mar 35 Mariner Essex Dovercourt
Sarah Elizth do Wife Mar 22 Essex Brighlingsea
Charity E.* do Daur 1 Essex Mistley
*Birth: Charity Emma Thomson, Jun qtr 1849 Tendring
Death: Charity Emma Thompson, Mar qtr 1852 Tendring
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Did you manage to sort this?
My grandfather was Frederick Minter Thomson, born 1887 of John Minter Thomson (merchant seaman, b 1851 Scotland) and Sarah Jane Northmore (quarryman's daughter, b 1853/4 Plymouth) m 24/3/1872
He was boarding with Phoebe Dennis in 1891 and adopted by her at 1901 Census.
He had 3 sisters, Ethel (b 1881 Plymouth), Lily (b 1885 Plymouth) and Hilda (b 1891 Plymouth)
Often wondered what happened to John and Sarah, since I can't find a trace of them
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Just posted at the end of the thread on Frederick Minter Thomson, who was my grandfather. Did you finalise this one, or do you want any further info??
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Hi no i havent found out anymore as not worked on this ladis tree but thank you for posting this, i will past it on to her and et ut to you.
I am away until next week so will do it when i get home.
I will be intouch