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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: deb usa on Wednesday 21 May 14 14:47 BST (UK)
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Continued from: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=622788.0 (Visit this to see the background to this massive topic)
Hi everyone,
For some reason yesterday I decided to reread some of our threads about dear old Nathaniel. I've missed him and our searches ;D
I found this this morning while trying to find out more on Nat, Ann Fox etc. ...it's quite interesting
In 1851 Nat is living with uncle John and has no occupation listed:
1851 census
9 Richmond Buildings
John Shepard 47 stone sawyer b St Pancras
Nathaniel Bryceson nephew 24 b Marylebone
This directory is from 1851, London
Nathaniel Bryceson, BOOKSELLER, 3 Percy Pas. (Passage?), Fitzroy Square.
Trying to find Percy Passage ...
deb
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Found this snippet:
Head back north, turn right on to Eastcastle Street, walk to the end, then left on to Newman Street. You’re looking for the cobbled Newman Passage on your right. You’ll emerge next to the Newman Arms. This traditional boozer was the model for the ‘prole pub’ in George Orwell’s ‘1984’ – ironic, given the crowds of local advertising execs who now pile in here for the tasty pies upstairs. Look directly back along Percy Passage. It boasts several old-fashioned street lamps – but how many?
Fitzroy Tavern
Duck through Percy Passage. Across the road you’ll find the Fitzroy Tavern. This distinctive Victorian drinking den (now owned by Samuel Smith) was a second home for a plethora of literary and artistic greats: Dylan Thomas, Augustus John, Nina Hamnett, Aleister Crowley and – an artist of a different sort – hangman Albert Pierrepoint. On the pub’s frontage you’ll find a Latin motto. What’s its last word?
Link: http://www.timeout.com/london/things-to-do/treasure-hunt-literary-fitzrovia-2
This link has pictures ..not sure which one is Percy Passage:
http://thecabbiescapital.wordpress.com/2009/03/25/newman-percy-passage/
I think this is it: see the 6th post
http://z1.invisionfree.com/thefall/index.php?showtopic=36071
Do you think our Nat tried his hand at selling books?
deb
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Do you think our Nat tried his hand at selling books?
deb
That would have suited him down to the ground!
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Hi Alpine ...nice to see you!!!!! :D
I was thinking the same thing. There is only that one reference to him in the directories ...maybe he enjoyed reading his books more than selling them. :)
deb
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Hi DebUSA :D
Perhaps he only bought the books he liked then couldn't bear to part with them - wouldn't it be wonderful to have a time machine and go and pay the shop a visit!
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It would be fantastic to go back in time!
I wonder if the old fashioned street lamps, from the previous link, were there when Nat was.
"Look directly back along Percy Passage. It boasts several old-fashioned street lamps"
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I noticed the worn flagstones - I bet Nat's own boots walked over them.
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Oh My ...I just went on Google maps and it's there. Find Rathbone Street, Fitzroy Sqaure, then Newman Arms ...directly opposite Newman Arms is Percy Passage.
Very old wrought iron lamps attached to the brick walls of the passage. Looking at the map it's close to Stephen Street where Ann Fox used to live.
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I'm so pleased you revived this thread Deb!!!! ;D ;D ;D
I am also amazed that you found mention of Nat as a bookseller in 1851! That is wonderful. I love the way you think outside of the square - I would never have thought to look up Nat in directories as we thought he was always employed by others. Great stuff!
You description of the location of Percy Passage threw me for a minute. I think it was the mention of Fitzroy Square which is up near the Marylebone Road. (I searched for that rather than Rathbone Street on google maps ::)).
Found it in the end though. Surprisingly close to Stephen Street. ;)
If there are several of us who want to revisit this, what do you all think about starting another thread? (rather than tagging it onto the end of this one?) I'm not sure what more there is to find, but new records are coming online all the time ... got to keep hoping. :)
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Hi Ruskie ;D
I think another thread would be fab! We need to come up with a great title for it!
I saw this when rereading from page 1 ...not sure what you meant by it ...
[info about later years from intro to diary on Westminster Archvies site - needs expanding]
I was also wondering what happened to all Granny Shepard's children. There was mention of her throwing them all together to get the small pox ... I wonder if many died from that. I tried to see if some of her children may have married .... Just too many Shepards with dad's named John.
THE VIRTUES OF SMALLPOX
'See these smallpox marks on my face? They were very common seventy years ago. No one thought anything of them. No one was so much afraid of smallpox.
It was looked on as a kill or cure disease.
My grandmother, who had eleven children, used to say 'If one has it, let them all associate and sleep together and catch it and get it over.' She did that with hers, but they wouldn't all take it, no matter what she did.
We thought it an impious act to vaccinate. Religious people generally did.'
What happened to Ann?? I checked marriages again today just in case one fit ...Nothing!
Why would the directory say Fitzroy Sq. as his bookseller address?
I just LOVE the idea that he had a bookshop or worked in one.
I also love the fact that when you google "Nathaniel Bryceson" our threads are the first hit!
deb
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Just a thought... we should reread this thread in order to expand on the summary. Wasn't the elusive "Mrs. Skiriker", the stalked one found here. ;D ;D
Matthew Ward's death was also found. Poor Mary, we have her burial but not cause of death.
:)
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I will start another thread now Deb. Agree that a snappy title would be great, but unsure if I can manage that. (I can always change it if mine is too pathetic. :)) I think I will ask a moderator to split this thread starting from your post yesterday. :)
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Thanks Trystan! Love that it's a massive topic LOL ;D ;D
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I wonder what threads have the most hits on RC.
We need to do a new summary ...
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[Thank you kind Trystan for splitting the old thread and starting this new one] :-*
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I wonder what threads have the most hits on RC.
We need to do a new summary ...
Deb I did do some sums on the number of pages these Nathaniel threads ran over, but I threw it out ages ago.
I will try to get back into the swing of things later when I have some quiet time. I will do a "Summary Part 2" as well, unless you have already done one Deb?
I saw this when rereading from page 1 ...not sure what you meant by it ...
[info about later years from intro to diary on Westminster Archvies site - needs expanding]
Deb, on the time line I wrote up, the information about Nathaniel's later years came from something which was written years ago for Westminster Archives. I thought we could/should expand on it, and probably check it as well.
Prime example - they obviously didn't know Nat was once a bookseller.
I'm sure we could bulk the whole time line out a lot.
Something which has been frustrating me is that we haven't managed to find Mary Ward's death certificate though we do have her burial. I will have to go back over this to check what we have already searched.
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TIMELINE AS I HAVE IT TO DATE (sadly I have to split it into 2):
[Part 1]
3rd Jan 1750
Matthew Ward (father of step father Matthew Ward) born
14 June 1771
Mary Lea (Granny Shepard) born
chr 26 Jul 1771
Saint Martin, Birmingham
father: Charles Lea
mother: Mary
26th June 1784
Matthew Ward born
chr 25 July 1784
St Mary, St Marylebone Rod, St Marylebone
father: Matthew Ward
mother: Ann
10 May 1796
John Shepard = Mary Lea (Granny Shepard)
St Andrew by the Wardrobe
27 June 1797
Mary Shepard born
chr 23 Jul 1797
Old Church St Pancras
father: John, mother: Mary
9 Oct 1801
Ann Fox born
9 June 1803 -
(Uncle) John Shepard born
chr 3 July 1803
Old Church St Pancras
father: John, mother: Mary
14 Apr 1818
Mary Sheppard = John Bryceson
St Martin in the Fields Westminster
wits: John Shepard, H. Bryceson
28th Apr 1824
John Bryceson, age 39, abode: St Martin in the Field,
buried Pentonville Chapel, St James, Clerkenwell
5th June 1826
Nathaniel White born (in the workhouse)
christened 4 Jul 1826
mother: Mary Bryson
father: Nathaniel White, occupation: Pauper
2nd May 1831
Burial - St Pancras
John Sheppard of Stephen Street age 63 years (so b 1768)
[this may be husband of Granny Sheppard]
1840-1841
Nathaniel worked as errand boy for Miss Isabella Emery
1841 census taken 6/7 June
1841 census
Richmond buildings
Richard Vagg, 39, Tailor, N
Catherine Vagg, 39, N
Nathaniel (surname dittoed) 13 Y
[This may be Nathaniel - note the address][Matthew Ward is a page away from this family in this census]
1841 census
Mary Bryceson has not been found
1841 census
Richmond Buildings
Matthew Ward 56 tailor Y
1841 census
Great Quebec St, Marylebone
Nathaniel White 50 chairmaker N
(possibly Nathaniel's real father)
I have this Nathaniel White through the censuses and his death in 1862. Unsure if he is the correct Nathaniel. He was born in Watford Hertfordshire.
1841 census
Stephen St, St Pancras
Sophia Ollive 50 Dressmaker Y
Ann Fox 30 FS Y
1841 census
Stephen Street
Mary Sheppard 73 N (Granny Shepard)
John Sheppard 35 stone mason Y (Uncle John)
Joseph Lloyd 20
Elizabeth Lloyd 25
27th June 1841
St Ann Westminster
Matthew Ward, full age, Tailor, living: Richmond Buildings, father: Matthew Ward, Tailor
= Mary Bryceson, full age, wid, living: Dean St, father: John Sheperd, mason
18th May 1846
Nathaniel moved into Richmond Buildings
20th May 1846
Granny Shepard moved into Richmond Buildings
1st June 1846
Uncle John Shepard age 43, has his first bath (worthy of a mention in the timeline)
29 Oct 1847
Burial - St Anne, Soho
Mary Ward, Richmond Buildings, age 50 (so born 1797)
27th March 1851
Death - Matthew Ward
Registration District: Strand, sub-district of St Anne Westminster
9 Richmond Buildings
age 66
occupation: Tailor
cause of death: Chronic Bronchitis
Informant: Ann Gullan present at death 9 Richmond Buildings Soho. Ann is a neighbour.
1851 census taken 30th/31st March
1851 census
Tottenham Court
Strand Union workhouse
Mary Shepard, wid, 80, mangler b Birmingham
(26 pages of inmates here)
1851 census
9 Richmond Buildings
John Shepard 47 stone sawyer b St Pancras
Nathaniel Bryceson nephew 24 b Marylebone
1851 census
27 Stephen Street
Cock Family
John Burns
Mary Elizth Kennington, unm 63, mangling, b Middlesex, St James Piccadilly
Ann Fox, 49, Charwoman, b Middlesex, Queen St
20th Nov 1851
Parish of St Pancras
Mary Shepard buried, age 80, abode: Infirmary
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[Part 2]
1852
Nathaniel moved from Richmond Buildings to Islington
June 18 1854
Nathaniel Bryceson, full age, commercial clerk, residence: Edwards Cottages, father: Nathaniel Bryceson, cabinet maker
= Sarah Clark
1861 census taken 7th/8th April
1861 census
10 Edward's Cottages, Islington
Nathaniel 34 coal merchant's clerk b Marylebone
Sarah wife b Herts Barnet
Nathaniel son 4 b Islington
Sarah M daur 2
John S son 1
1861 census
6 Douglas Street, Westminster
John Shepard lodger unmar 57 stone sawyer b St Pancras
1868
death certificate: John Sheperd, male age 64 years, Stone Sawyer,
died 17 Jan 1868 6 Douglas Street, Westminster,
Diarrhoea 5 weeks,
Informant: Jane Sulch/Lulch, present at the death
1871 census
10 Edwards Cottages, Islington
Nathaniel 44 coal merchant's clerk b Marylebone
Sarah 45 b Herts Barnet
Nathaniel son 14 errand boy b Islington
Sarah M daur 12
John S son 10
Henry son 7
1881 census
48 Essex Rd, Islington Green Nth
Nathaniel 54 accountant
Sarah wife 55
Nathaniel son 24 undertaker
Sarah daur 22
John son 21 compositor
Henry son 17 builder's labourer
1890
Sarah, Nathaniel's wife died
1891 census
4 Charlton Place, Islington
Nathaniel head wid 65 accountant
Henry son 27 unmar timekeeper
Nathaniel is listed in Kelly's till 1895 as an accountant
1901 census
Warren Street, Clerkenwell
Nathaniel 74 widr commercial clerk b St.Marylebone
Emma Morris servt single 64 b St Giles in the Fields
23rd March 1911
Nathaniel died, 102 Dempsey St, Stepney (at his daughter Sarah Stangroom's house)
Son Henry was the informant.
Cause of death: Senile Degeneration Exhaustion
Buried Islington Cemetery, Finchley
[Bryceson Nathaniel; No. 139239; Abode, Dempsey St, Stepney; Class 2; V2; 1229P - buried with son Nathaniel who died in February 1911]
[info about later years from intro to diary on Westminster Archives site - I need to expand this later stuff and will add more as the diary reveals more]
Islington Cemetery in Finchley.
February 1911
Name: Bryceson Nathaniel; No. 138957; Abode (!) Royal Free Hospital; Class of grave, 3; Block V2 Grave 1229P
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[MINOR PROBLEM:
When we first started this Nathaniel obsession, we used to go back to our old posts and make amendments, most importantly to the timeline - sometimes just adding one or two small facts as we discovered them - regularly updating it.
NOW, we are unable to do this as we can only amend our own post for 24 hours.
After this time, we have to request that a moderator makes changes on our behalf. Depending on how much we find and how many changes we require, this will give a lot of extra work to the mod and also may cause difficulties explaining to the mod what changes we would like, exact wording, where changes need to go, etc. So something which would take us a minute to change ourselves has to go through a third party.
I think that re-posting the entire time line when a small change is made, is not practical and would make the thread cumbersome and longer than it needs to be.
It is kindof nice to have the timeline on page 1 for everyone to refer to. Maybe we will just see how it goes, and hope that we find plenty of new info which we will have to trouble a mod to add. ;D]
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Great job, Ruskie!
I didn't know that we could only amend/add to a post within 24 hours. Perhaps, if we find new things for the timeline, we could post them in bold red so it's easily noticeable when scrolling through the pages. (I'm optimistic that we will find pages of info! ;D)
Can you add the 1851 directory?
I need to find the link to the diary again ...it may be worth rereading. I think I may enjoy doing that :)
deb
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Just found this and don’t really know what to think of it. Does the electoral reg. below refer to Nat snr. or jnr.?
1881 census
48 Essex Rd, Islington Green Nth
Nathaniel 54 accountant
Sarah wife 55
Nathaniel son 24 undertaker
Sarah daur 22
John son 21 compositor
Henry son 17 builder's labourer
According to the electoral registers of 1881 this is a description of the residence : Although I’m not sure what all of this means as both Nats are at Essex Rd! (Description is in columns)
Parish of St Mary, Islington, Ward # 8 – St Peter’s
LODGERS
Name of Voters in full, surname being first:
#39208 Nathaniel Bryceson/
Description of rooms occupied and whether furnished or not:
breakfast palour, kitchen and bedroom, ground floor, unfurnished/
Street, Lane or other place, and number (if any) of house in which lodgings are situate:
155 Packington Street, Islington/
Amount of rent paid:
8s. 6d. per week/
Name and address of landlord or other persons to whom rent is paid:
William Harris 155 Packington st
Perhaps NB jnr. moved out of Essex Street after the census was taken.
Just for interests sake …the description of homes/rooms NB lived in:
Charlton Place
1894:
Nathaniel Bryceson, 3 rooms, 2 ground floor one basement, unfurnished, Mr Stangroom same address
And Warren Street :
1901
Nathaniel Bryceson , 1 room and kitchen, first floor, unfurnished, 42 Warren Street, Mr Stangroom at same address.
There are 2 other addresses that appear for Nathaniel Bryceson which do not come up during the censuses. (not sure if they are for NB snr. or jnr.)
1902; 32 Crouch Hill, dwelling house (service), rooms over shop
1902: 7 Avenell rd, dwelling house (part service) (successive), then a column with 32 Crouch hill (rooms over Shop) and 7 Avenell rd.
deb
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Hi Deb,
Firstly I have to clarify that the timeline has not had anything added to it since Matthew Ward's death details (if I remember back that far ::)), so I do have some work to do.
I think your idea of adding new facts as they are found in red is an excellent idea. The 24 hour time limit in which you can make changes to your posts was introduced during 'the changes'. I believe it was to stop people amending posts at a later date and the entire thread no longer making sense as bits might be missing. I can understand that reasoning but it is difficult if, like us, you want to add something. I would feel bad bothering a moderator to ask them to do this for us. (and if they added it incorrectly I would feel even worse asking them to change it :-[).
Very interesting about the residences - is that all from the electoral registers? Did you find it on Ancestry?
Don't get too far ahead of me Deb - I have lots of catching up to do and it's already past my bedtime. ;D :(
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Hi Ruskie
Yep everything is from Ancestry. There seems to be a lot of new records added to the London indexes.
Some time or other I'm going to reread the diary ... :D
Sleep tight!
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Am now working on a summary of what we are still looking for, and also what needs to be added to the timeline. :)
Deb, regarding this info you posted:
Just for interests sake …the description of homes/rooms NB lived in:
Charlton Place
1894:
Nathaniel Bryceson, 3 rooms, 2 ground floor one basement, unfurnished, Mr Stangroom same address
And Warren Street :
1901
Nathaniel Bryceson , 1 room and kitchen, first floor, unfurnished, 42 Warren Street, Mr Stangroom at same address.
Remember that Mr Stangroom is his daughter's husband and he died at their address in Dempsey St.
Also, as I go over the previous 'revisted' thread and the article published in 1919 about Nathaniel, it says he had 2 tons of books, so him dabbling in bookselling does not surprise me. :)
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Hi Ruskie,
I spent the whole morning going around in circles and really achieving nothing except my happiness to be revisiting Nat's diary again.
Unfortunately it seems that there is no way to view the diary , however there seems to be many references to it in other books.
see here:
www.rootschat.com/links/0ze0
I started reading our earlier threads again ...I wish we had copied and pasted each diary entry on the day we were posting unfortunately we only have snippets.
In thread 3 near the end Ann and Nat go walking in Charlotte street (I think) to FITZROY SQUARE. I wonder if this is the same Charlotte Street where NB jnr. lived with his family. There is also mention of Crouch Hill. I have forgotten so much of what occurred.
I remember that Stangroom was his son-in-law.
Do you remember who Mrs. Skiriker turned out to be? I know she was Bunyan's grandaughter or gr granddaughter but what was her name?
How fun is this?
deb
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Glad to see this discussion still continuing :)
You can read the first ten months of the diary via archive.org still:
https://web.archive.org/web/20101217000837/http://www.westminster.gov.uk/services/libraries/archives/victorian-clerk/archive/
For some reason archive.org never picked up the November and December pages, although it's possible they might be on there hidden away somewhere. But if all else fails then maybe Westminster archive could supply us with the files? They were very helpful in the past iirc.
The news about Nathaniel owning a bookstore is fascinating, although I'm surprised a bit that he would've had the money to do this? It seems like it would be an expensive endeavour. I'm also a bit confused about the idea of there being a shop or dwellings in Percy Passage since from the pictures I can see online it's literally a narrow passageway between two streets? Maybe it used to be wider.
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Hi drykid :)
Thanks so much for the link to the diary!!!
Percy Passage seems to link Charlotte Street and Rathbone Street. The directory definitely says Percy Pas. and not street. As you say, it's very narrow .
I just looked at google maps again and when 'standing' in Rathbone Street looking down Percy passage there seems to be some bricked up windows ...perhaps in Nat's time there were entrances to shops in the passage.
Looking at it from the Charlotte Street side into the passage there also looks to be possible side entrance ways.
ah ha ...a picture from Rathbone Street .. bricked up windows?
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In The Standard of 22 September 1827 was a report of a property auction (front page).
"...The next lot was offered for sale, which was described as Percy Chapel, situate in Charlotte-street, near Rathbone-place, containing sittings for a numerous congregation, with vestry room, extensive vaults, range of small shops in Percy-passage, adjoining the chapel, and a dwelling-house in Upper Rathbone-place... This lot was put up at 500L and knocked down at 8,300L. Percy Chapel is connected with the Established Church."
The chapel was apparently demolished in 1867:
www.aim25.ac.uk/cgi-bin/vcdf/detail?coll_id=15408&inst_id=118&nv1=search&nv2=
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That's fantastic, Avm !!!!! Great find!
Thanks :D
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I guess I'm possibly guilty of applying my 21st century notions of what a row of shops looks like. Maybe in Dickensian times it was quite normal to have shops hidden away in a narrow passage (also it would help to explain why Nat might be located there, since it clearly would be at the more affordable end of things.) I agree that the bricked up parts must've been windows at some time.
I think I'll have a walk down this neck of the woods the next time I'm in the city.
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It may not have been the most salubrious area of town in Nathaniel's time.
A report in the London Daily News of 3 October 1849 details the findings of a sanitary inspector on a recent visit.
"UPPER RATHBONE-PLACE: One side of this street is in St Pancras, and that parish cleanses and keeps in repair the upper part of the street, viz. from Charlotte-place to Percy-passage. I found it neglected and dirty, and the road out of repair. One of the inhabitants declared it had not been cleansed for more than a week. Between No 41 1/2 in this street and No 8, Percy-passage exist an offensive cess-pool and drain, which have not been cleaned for fourteen years, making these two houses very unhealthy."
A report in the previous year, 1848, named Peter Moore, a labourer, as residing at No. 8, Percy-passage when he gave evidence in a criminal trial.
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Drykid ... Please take photos the next time you're in the city! ;D
Avm ... great stuff. Sounds like it was an awful place in those days.
The Passage doesn't seem to be long enough to have many shops/homes. Nat was at no. 3. and Peter Moore (in 1848) was a no.8. They must have been excruciatingly tiny places. :-\
It's hard to imaging Nat having a bookstore there ...maybe things had improved a bit when he was there in 1851.
His son, Nathaniel and family, lived at 47 Charlotte Street in 1891 ...wonder how far that is from PP (Percy Passage)?
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Will try and take pictures although in all honesty given the width of the thing it would be hard to take anything meaningful other than at either end. Otherwise it would just be a close-up of some bricks.
A map of the street numbering of Percy Passage would be very helpful; I know we had a link to one for Richmond Buildings from the 19th C. which was very useful for showing where exactly number 9 was located originally. Anyone know where that came from? Was it an extract from a larger map of London as a whole?
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Drykid,
I don't remember. Will try to find something.
Looked for Peter Moore in 1841 and 1851 ...can't find one living in Percy Street. Not sure how to find PP on the censuses. It would be interesting to see who lived there.
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Found this from Kelly’s in 1851
D. and A. Roudhloff 87 Charlotte St. Fitzy. Sq. London
Then found them in 1851 census …went to enumeration district details …Percy Passage was there.
Handwriting hard to read
4 Percy Passage:
SamL Knight 18 cheesemonger
Thos. Knight 14 Tailor
Chas. Knight 12
All sons but no head of house. All b St Pancras (?)
/
Samuel ? 58 shoemaker
3 or 5 PP
Margaret ??comb, dau, Unm, 23 servant, b St Pancras (Enumerated as Margaret Discomb)
8 PP
Stephen ??, son, unm, 24 occ: ?, b London (Enumerated as Stephen Bland)
Not sure why they are "son/dau" when there is no head !?
There is a George Lea (45, engraver, b London) and family living at 1 Charlotte Street. Was he related to Granny Shepard nee Lea?
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There is a George Lea (45, engraver, b London) and family living at 1 Charlotte Street. Was he related to Granny Shepard nee Lea?
Wasn't George Lea Nat's boss at the wharf, or am I just stating the obvious?
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Hmm ... I think the George Lea that Nat worked for, after bankruptcy in the coal business, became a lighterman ... not an engraver.
Just found him...George Lea b 1820 St Pancras s/o Charles Lea (Granny Shepard's brother) and Lydia Wood.
My mistake for thinking the engraver was related. :-[
I either forgot or never realised George was only 6 years older than Nat!
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Just briefly popping in while watching Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets ;D. When Harry mistakenly ends up in Knockturn Alley instead of Diagon Alley there are a number of shops along the narrow alley - one of them is a bookshop, which made me think of Percy Passage and Nat's bookshop. So I went searching for photos of the film set, but couldn't find what I was looking for.
I did find this though, which I imagine Percy Passage to have been like.
Seventh picture down:
http://hothousemonkey.com/post/27283227814/diagon-alley-day-21
If Percy Passage was anything like the alley in this image, I think there would have been room for a door, shop window, and sign. We also don't know whether the shops would only have been along one side of the Passage, which may have made it less cramped.
Drykid, it would be great if you could take a photo next time you are in the area.
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Thanks for the pics, Ruskie ... ;)
Avm found this snippet for us:
" .... Percy Chapel, situate in Charlotte-street, near Rathbone-place, containing sittings for a numerous congregation, with vestry room, extensive vaults, range of small shops in Percy-passage, adjoining the chapel, ..."
Googling Percy Chapel there is this painting : http://www.magnoliabox.com/tag/Charlotte%20Street
(2nd picture, Percy Chapel with Percy Passage to the left)
This is another view of Percy Chapel and passage:
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So Percy Passage doesn't look too small in those images.
I did find it on a couple of old maps - never named as Percy Passage, but it was a very straight 'lane' directly through to the Chapel from Upper Rathbone Place. You can see it quite clearly here (though the Chapel is not named):
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0zem/
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As promised - sorry for the delay ...
STILL OUTSTANDING
There will be more – please add to this list if you wish.
Most of these have been taken from the previous ‘revisited’ thread, so there is a lot of repetition and most of these have been discussed at length already.
Although many of us have already searched as thoroughly as we can for answers to the mysteries below, might it be worth trying again in case more data has come online over the past couple of years?
Ann Fox:
Birthday 9 Oct 1801 – born where ? Queen St /Green St, Middx according to the 1851 census. Look at image again? Enhance image to try to see it more clearly?
Is there any way to go thru PRs from Queen St? Fox perhaps was her married name? Where is Ann in 1861? She is living with Mrs Kennington in Stephen Street in 1851. If she died before 1861 where is her death/burial? - Can we decipher and locate this and find her birth? Due to the fact that she attended Tottenham Court Road Chapel, it has been suggested that she may have been non-conformist. Are there any non-conformist records for the area?
[Siamese girl has already tried this: I listed all the men with the surname Fox who married plain Anns on Ancestry's London BMDs 1816-1846 made a note of the Anns surnames and then tried to find their baptisms, as many parishes at that time made a note of the date of birth as well as the date of baptism there was a (very) remote chance that I might have found Ann Fox, if she had got married as we know her date of birth. I didn't expect to find her and I was right! It was just too hit or miss.]
Mary Bryceson/Ward:
Still missing from 1841 census. The 1841 census was taken 6/7 June. Mary married Matthew Ward on the 27th June and she said she lived at Dean St then. Matthew Ward is at Richmond Buildings in 1841 and says his address is Richmond Buildings on his marriage cert. Where is Mary? She and Matthew married 20 days after the census was taken and she was ‘of Dean St’. All of Dean St (District 9) has been checked. Are there any missing addresses? Is it worth rechecking?
Nathaniel in 1841:
Where is Nathaniel in the 1841 census? As discussed at length, someone on Ancestry has made an alteration to the 1841 census transcription saying that a Nathaniel Bryceson is living in Shoreditch with someone called Ann, a weaveress, who appears to be his mother, plus several siblings. However we have traced this family and this is not our Nat. There is even some debate over the surname which looks more like Bryan and doesn't appear to be long enough to be Bryceson. Also Nathaniel never mentions any siblings. There is a Vagg family at 13 Richmond Buildings. The head, Richard Vagg is a tailor (as is Matthew Ward so perhaps they knew each other). There doesn't appear to be births/baptisms for any children for the Vaggs. The Nathaniel with them just has the surname dittoed and the age is right to be our Nat so I wonder if he was lodging with or just visiting the Vaggs and the surname was dittoed in error? Can we be fairly sure this IS Nathaniel Bryceson?
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continued....
Nathaniel White:
(Nat's father), and his death? Why was he in the Workhouse? How did Mary know him? Why was she involved with a pauper in the WH? He is named as the father on the baptism entry so he acknowledged that he is the father. We know that the parish was chasing him for money for support prior to Nathaniel's birth. {I can’t recall how we found out about this} Is there any more info about this in any records? Are there any WH records which name Nathaniel White, or give details of our Nat's birth? Which WH might he have been born in? Was Mary also in the WH? There is a Nathaniel White, chair maker who has been traced through the censuses - he appears to be single throughout. He lives Marylebone. Is he Nat's real father? Can we find his d/c?
Death certificates:
The following has been purchased and is the correct certificate:
Matthew Ward
Mar q 1851
STRAND, London
vol 1 p 358
Re Mary Ward death cert – We have made three searches and none are our Mary. I’m afraid I can’t find the reference numbers for the first certificate I requested, (I think) specifying her address as Richmond Buildings. Neither that nor “wife of Matthew Ward” could find the correct Mary Ward d/c. The response from the GRO: We have searched the indexes for events registered in England and Wales during the years specified (1846-1848). We have been unable to find any entry with the details you provided.
Mary Ward
Dec q 1847
St James Westminster
London
1 113 [wrong one – Mongibello ordered this and this Mary died in the Poland Street workhouse on 8 December; weeks after "our" Mary was buried.]
Mary Ward
Dec 1847
Pancras London
1 328 [wrong one – spinster who died of influenza]
As GRO form filling did not find Mary and they claim to have searched a year either side of 1847, I sent an email to them giving further details. Their response:
If you are unsure which of the possible entries found in the indexes refer to the person you are looking for, you may wish to place a research order and we will carry out a three year search of the General Register Office Indexes for the entry you are seeking.
If the name appears frequently in the indexes you can request we search a year or specific quarter of a year and we will check up to 6 possible entries in the name quoted. You will need to make your application by phone or post however.
Additional information may be included on these orders which will help us identify an entry. You say you have a record of her being buried on 29 October 1847 which may indicate she died shortly prior to this.
We are only able to undertake searches where at the very least the year and place of the event together with the full name and surname of the person is provided.
If the search is unsuccessful we will contact you to advise no trace of an entry can be found in the details supplied and a full refund is issued.
Standard Service charge £9.25 - 15 working days
Priority Service charge £23.40 - Despatched the following working day.
General:
I wonder if any of the family made a will? Mary? Granny Shepherd? Deb looked for wills and probate? Have any new records come online which will be worth searching?
Attempting to find Granny Shepard’s NINE other children, (presuming this is the grandmother Nat was referring to in his published interview in 1909 rather than the one on his ‘real’ father’s side).
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TIMELINE:
The following needs to be added to timeline:
Article published 20th Jan 1909 – interview with Nathaniel Bryceson – Titled “Talks of Old London” Link to the article via:
http://newspaperarchive.com/
(search by date and publication)
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Thanks for the map ... :)
So it seems that the "building' attached to the left of the Chapel housed the shops,
red posts ...will catch up
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Percy Passage is marked on this map:
http://london1868.com/weller41b.htm
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Good Job Ruskie!
Silly question: Did you have to register a death before a person was buried in those times?
.
Mary buried Oct 1847 this death reg Dec 1847
Mary Ward
Dec 1847
Marylebone, London
1 152
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So it seems that the "building' attached to the left of the Chapel housed the shops,
Yes, it looks like one side (top or north side) of the Passage was the wall of the Chapel, so presumably there were only shops on the other (bottom or south) side. :-\ I wonder if the shopkeepers lived on the premises? Looking at your census find it seems that they did.
How close to Stephen Street is Percy Passage? ;)
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That's a great map, Ruskie. Look how close Dean Street was!
red post ...
Ahh yes ...Stephen Street ...very close! ;D
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Gee Deb, I'm wondering if that was the first certificate I ordered ... stupidly I can't find my emails or the reference numbers. :-[ The one from the GRO must be there somewhere.
I know there weren't many Mary Ward deaths, and in the previous 'revisited' thread you did some good logical thinking about which was most likely to be our Mary.
I even reread the previous thread but either I didn't say which cert I'd ordered or missed it somewhere.
I will check again tomorrow.
I think registration of deaths was compulsory but I believe it was possible for them to slip through the cracks sometimes. Unsure if the burial was able to take place if unregistered though ...
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His son, Nathaniel and family, lived at 47 Charlotte Street in 1891 ...wonder how far that is from PP (Percy Passage)?
Percy Chapel fronts onto Charlotte Street - so just at the other end of Percy Passage. :)
(unless it was a different Charlotte St - enumeration district will need to be checked)
(signing off now Deb. I expect you to have at least found Ann Fox in 1861 by the time I return ;D)
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Nat jnr. and family in 1891, 47 Charlotte Street, ISLINGTON :)
added ... I wish I could find her LOL
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Good Job Ruskie!
Silly question: Did you have to register a death before a person was buried in those times?
.
Mary buried Oct 1847 this death reg Dec 1847
Mary Ward
Dec 1847
Marylebone, London
1 152
The Dec 1847 refers to the December quarter 1847 which covers October - December 1847; a death and burial in October woulfd be listed in the December quarter.
Nanny Jan
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Hi nanny jan,
I'm so embarrassed ... I don't think I was thinking straight LOL ...I'm blushing as I sit here! :-[
Thanks
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You're among friends........we've all done that! :D
Nanny Jan
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;D
From Ruskie:
Ann Fox:
Birthday 9 Oct 1801 – born where ? Queen St /Green St, Middx according to the 1851 census. Look at image again? Enhance image to try to see it more clearly?
Looking at the birth place of Ann Fox in 1851 I'm beginning to think that it's Queen Street.
Two lines up someone is born Middlesex, St Georges. The capital "G" is totally different than what is written for Ann POB.
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If you look at the English Heritage listing for 11-13 Charlotte Street (originally two terraced houses but now knocked together to form an Italian Restaurant; although Google Streetview is a bit out of date and shows the previous occupiers), it talks a bit about the previous history and how traces of the original Percy Passage shop premises remain:
http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1066260
Details
CITY OF WESTMINSTER CHARLOTTE STREET, Wl TQ 2981 NE 47/2 Nos. 11 and 13 II Pair of terrace houses with shops. c.1830. Stucco faced, slate roofs. 4 storeys and renewed dormered mansard. Each 3 windows wide. Ground floor has large double former shop fronts carried across, probably a late C19 alteration with broad flanking pilasters and continuous fascia with dentil cornice. To the right flank in Percy Passage the earlier C19 frame of shop front remains with gorged end stops to fascia with row of rosettes and dentil cornice, blocked openings beyond with rosettes in entablatures. The upper floors of front have recessed glazing bar sashes, all in architraves, those on 1st floor with cornices and consoles to sills on floors above. Continuous 1st floor cast iron flat patterned baluster balcony; crowning cornice and blocking course.
(These shop fronts would've been on the south side of the passage facing the chapel at the time.)
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Hi Drykid :)
Thanks for that.
I just went back to google streetview. The entrance to PP from Rathbone St is bricked whereas the entrance from Charlotte Street is painted and seems to have what looks to be old entrances facing what was the chapel.
Oscar, Bar and Restaurant, Charlotte Street Hotel with Percy Passage to the left
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The Charlotte Street Hotel has a very fine bar where I have spent many a happy evening :D
Although the passage is now so narrow that we can't imagine shops in there, it's clear there was a bit more room for them when the chapel was in situ.
Some interesting bits of local history in this planning report:
www.rootschat.com/links/0zfj/
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Hi avm
I was just looking at images of the interior of the Charlotte Street Hotel and wishing I had known about it when I was last in London (2010). It looks wonderful.
I bet you wish you had known of PP and Nat when you spent your happy evenings there! ;D
Need a bit of time to read your link.
Thanks
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Deb: thanks, for some reason I didn't study streetview properly before, but as you say you can clearly see the remains of the old store front referred to in the English Heritage entry. It looks to me like the window nearest to Charlotte Street was just an additional window for what was once a corner store, rather than a separate shop. But further down inside it looks like there is an additional frontage so maybe this would have belonged to a second shop. And therefore that could be the one we're looking for.
Although the passage is now so narrow that we can't imagine shops in there, it's clear there was a bit more room for them when the chapel was in situ.
Good point; I was completely forgetting that - at least during Nat's time there - the chapel was still in place. Although looking at this drawing it doesn't look much wider:
(http://imageweb-cdn.magnoliasoft.net/guildhall/fullsize/1645575.jpg)
Also there was - or at least there was when that drawing was done - a small two-storey building between the chapel and the passage itself (as well as a similar one on the opposite side of the chapel.)
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I will read all the links provided later.
Description by English Heritage is a great find Drykid.
I was thinking along the same lines as others - that the Passage must have been wider when the Chapel was there. You can see on the maps - it actually doesn't look very narrow. In the drawing I think it looks reasonably wide too. It is logical that when they destroyed the Chapel, that the buildings they built in it's place would be slightly wider in order to get that little bit extra room.
So would the shops along Percy Passage open into the building opposite the side of the Chapel, or were the shops like stalls set up inside the passage? . I need to go back and check what buildings are there.
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Hi Ruskie,
I imagine that little shops were in the building to the left of the chapel and were entered by the passage. If he was in a directory I would imagine that the bookstore would have to be in a building as opposed to a stall.
If you click on the street view here this is the Charlotte Street entrance to PP ...you can look down the passage to the other side which exits into Rathbone Street (the bricked side). I actually took a stroll to the left, down Charlotte Street and wound around into Rathbone St where you can look down the passage and see the bricked in windows.
link to google maps, Percy Passage, London: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=percy+passage+london&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x48761b2c7798ed01:0xc1607bd59d67214e,Percy+Passage,+Fitzrovia,+London+W1T+1RQ,+UK&gl=us&ei=SJuCU57CIq-2sATZkIHgBg&sqi=2&ved=0CCgQ8gEwAA
Drykid , if you do go to PP maybe you'll be able to give us a better idea of where the doors and windows were.
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Another thought......
In 1851 I found people living at 4, 5 and 8 Percy Passage.
At #4 we had Samuel (cheesemonger) and Thomas Knight (Tailor) with possibly their younger brother, Charles and in another room, Samuel ?, a shoemaker.
#5 Margaret Discomb, a servant
#8 Stephen Bland, a cutler
The next "street" enumerated is Bedford Passage. Prior to PP is Pitt Street... I can't spot either on maps.
I am wondering if the shops were downstairs and people roomed upstairs as I find Stephen Bland still in PP in 1841 along with other families. Unfortunately there are no house numbers.
Joseph Sears, 70 shoemaker
//
Maria Ridgeway, 42, china dealer
//
George Basham, 20, smith
Harriet do. 23
Eliza do. 3 months
//
George Goulden, 51, tailor
Hannah do. 56
//
Stephen Bland 39, working(?) cutler
Deborah do. 36
Stephen do. 14
John 12
Charles 7
Sarah 4
Susannah 7 months
Harriet 17
Next place enumerated is Bedford Passage.
deb
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Going from the sanitary report about the cesspool, I think 8 Percy Passage must have been at the far Upper Rathbone Place end of the passage. The cesspool problem affected "two houses", one of which was no 8 and the other had an Upper Rathbone Place address.
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This Westminster doc has a lot of interesting info on the history of the Charlotte Street area (including scans of quite a few maps, unfortunately at not a very high resolution though):
http://transact.westminster.gov.uk/docstores/publications_store/Charlotte%20Street%20West%20CAA%20SPG.pdf
One of the maps featured there (Horwood's map of 1746) led me to a later Horwood map from 1799 which is available elsewhere on the net:
(http://www.motco.com/MapImages/81005/81005210.jpg)
(I've a feeling this is the same map that we got the numbering for Richmond Buildings from previously.)
Unfortunately although that one includes street numbering for the area (which is what I after) it looks like there were no properties within Percy Passage at that point. So these must have been a 19th century addition. Also the numbering for Charlotte Street itself was clearly completely different then since the building opposite the chapel which is now no. 13 was no. 93 then, and the old no. 13 was on the other side of the street. (Also Percy Chapel seems to have been known as Charlotte Chapel at the time.)
Incidentally http://www.motco.com/map/ is a very good resource for London maps as it has quite a few of them from different periods, all of which can be viewed as separate "zoomed-in" detail versions for readability.
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Also from a Sun Fire Office insurance document (not online) indexed by National Archives:
Folder icon [no title] MS 11936/519/1098201 21 October 1829
These documents are held at London Metropolitan Archives
Contents:
Insured: George Tudor, John Perry, James Perry, Samuel Shore, John Tims and Frederick Holbrook esq
Other property or occupiers: Percy Chapel, Charlotte Street, Rathbone Place; 1 to 7 Percy Passage (3 shoemaker, 4 dentist, 5 and 6 dealer in marine stores, 7 clothes shop); 41 and a half and 42 Upper Rathbone Place (cork cutter, green grocer)
Seems like Percy Passage was quite a busy place back then.
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I think I was mistaken before, thinking that the shops were attached to the other side of Percy Passage. Looking at the picture at Deb's reply #38, plus other maps etc, it looks like the shops were attached to the wall of the Chapel. I think the passage might have been about the same width as it is today, however now the chapel plus the adjoining shops have been replaced by other buildings.
The image at #38 shows the white building between the chapel and Percy Passage, which looks like it might be the same one which can be seen on google maps today. :)
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I'm a bit confused what you mean; the smaller building between the chapel and Percy Passage was almost certainly demolished at the same time as the chapel itself, with the Dental Depot built on the site of both (which is now the Charlotte Hotel.)
As for which side the shops were on, it's possible that up to the demolition of the chapel there could have been shops on either or both sides of the passage as far as I can see.
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I'm a bit confused what you mean; the smaller building between the chapel and Percy Passage was almost certainly demolished at the same time as the chapel itself, with the Dental Depot built on the site of both (which is now the Charlotte Hotel.)
Yes, that is what I mean. :)
Looking at the excellent Horwood map I nos 41 and 93 would probably face the main streets, so I tend to think that the shops might only have been on the Chapel side of the Passage. Don't know if they would have shop's doorways at the side of a building? Perhaps they did .... :-\
The Horwoods maps shows the Charlotte St end blocked off and something that looks like an extension almost the entire length of the Chapel. I wondered if this was where the shops were situated.
Of course there could have been changes between when this map was made and 1851. :)
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Oh ok I thought you were saying you could see the building between the chapel and the passage on google maps today, which definitely would be unlikely :)
By Nat's time no. 93 would've been replaced by no. 13, which is either a much larger building than before, or alternatively the Horwood's map doesn't draw buildings to scale (I suspect the latter since all the houses in the area are of remarkably similar size.) But either way the building that was there in Nat's day (And still there now) stretches most of the length of the passage and therefore it's possible that shops could've been built into the side of it.
But equally I agree that the building alongside the chapel could have contained a row of shops, so I still think it's possible that there were shops on both sides. I think it may be very hard to figure this out further unless someone gets hold of some kind of original planning documents (assuming they had such things back then!)
Good spot that the passage didn't open originally onto Charlotte Street, although that may well have changed by 18-30 when nos. 11 and 13 were built.
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I suppose there is just a chance that the enumerator's route descriptions in 1851 or 1861 might help, in that they might indicate whether 1-8 Percy Passage were all on the south side or split north & south. I admit it is unlikely such detail will appear for such a tiny alleyway!
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No such luck with the Enumerator's notes;
1841 (added: no numbers mentioned , Stephen Bland snr. (a cutler) and jnr were residents)
St Pancras
Charlotte St
Russell Place
Fitzroy St
Percy Passage
Bedford Passage
North St
Pitt St
1851 (added: numbers 4, 5 and 8 mentioned, Stephen Bland jnr. ( a cutler) at #8)
St Pancras
Charlotte St, Fitzroy Square
Russell St, "
Fitzroy St, "
North St, "
Pitt St, "
Percy Passage, "
Bedford Passage, "
I have read in a newspaper article (1863) that there were also Wine cellars (owned by a wine dealer of Charlotte Street) underneath Percy Chapel. The vaults/cellars opened up from Charlotte Street and Upper Rathbone Place.
Another article dated 11 September 1838:
PERCY CHAPEL to be sold, a copy hold estate ....
it states that the sale consists of:
* Percy Chapel capable of accommodating 1200 persons !!!!
* Vaults underneath
* 7 adjoining tenements
* A ground rent arising from a school and house let to the Russell School of Industry
* The Chapel and vaults may be purchased separately
Deb
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In 1851 Percy Passage was enumerated in district 4. There were 17 districts for Middlesex, St Pancras, Tottenham Court. I checked all the enumerators notes to see if there was "another side" to Percy Passage ...Nothing.
Stephen Street where Ann Fox lived was district 2 as was 23-28 Rathbone Place and 38-50 UPPER Rathbone Place
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Hi
This is such a large thread, not sure if this has been seen. Some info here about Charlotte Street and the surrounding area
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=744&page=1&sort=1
claire
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The search for the death of MARY WARD:
This is the email I sent to the GRO after the purchase of one incorrect certificate and the refund of money after ordering two others where information provided did not match so certificates were not issued:
GQ Unable to locate correct certificate
I'm sure this is slightly different from most of the requests you receive, but I would be very grateful if you could help in my quest.
I am attempting to find a death certificate. I have placed two orders with specific search terms which failed to locate the correct death certifcate although your staff searched both years either side of the death year of 1847. One incorrect certificate has also been purchased. The Westminster Archives holdings have also been checked but no death certificate located.I know her date of burial, her address in the year prior to death, and her husband’s name.
A bit of background information -:
I am not sure if you are aware of this feature which was published online by Westminster Archives during 2010, "The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson, 1846":
http://www.westminster.gov.uk/services/libraries/archives/victorian-clerk/
This diary captured the imagination of the members of an online forum called RootsChat, and led to a huge and continuing discussion (initiated by myself). Part 1 (of 9 plus a "Revisited") commences here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,457330.0.html
We have traced the births, marriages and deaths of many of the characters in the diary. Now we are trying to locate the death of the author's mother, who was very ill throughout 1846 and died the following year in 1847. We have her burial:
29 Oct 1847
St Anne, Soho
Mary Ward, Richmond Buildings, age 50
To give some idea of likely places of death, her husband died 27 March 1851, Strand, sub-district of St Anne Westminster, and his address was Richmond Buildings (I have this certificate). Her mother died 20th Nov 1851 in the Parish of St Pancras
[Mary Shepard buried, age 80, abode: Infirmary] (I have not yet purchased this certificate)
As Mary was so ill I wondered if she may also have been admitted to the infirmary prior to death, and perhaps the informant may have been a member of staff who did not know her husband's name, hence this not being picked up on the GRO search. Her address specified as Richmond Buildings also failed to locate her death which may be due to her being in the infirmary.
Unfortunately there was nowhere on the online application form to give further information about the deceased which may have helped in your search for her death, in particular her burial on 29th October 1847 at St Anne, Soho. Presumably her death would only have occurred a day or two prior to this.
Is there any way that you would be able to do a broader search in a smaller time frame? Though unlikely, there is also the chance that she may have died elsewhere slightly outside the area.Free BMD has the following deaths registered in the December quarter of 1847, in London and Middlesex:
Deaths Dec 1847
Ward Mary
Marylebone
1 152
Ward Mary
St Pancras
1 328
Ward Mary
Holborn
2 173
Ward Mary
St James
1 113
[this was purchased but is incorrect as this individual died 8 Dec]
So basically I am looking to find a death a day or two prior to the 29th of OCtober 1847. Is there any way to investigate the above deaths to see if any of them occurred around this time. Cause of death may be as a result of a tumor, and age is 50, unless unknown by the informant. Are there any other possible deaths in the right area and time frame which are not listed on Freebmd?
I’m not sure how much flexibility there is in the GRO regarding locating and supplying certificates but I wonder if you might allow a little flexibility in this case. I would be more than happy to pay for the certificate if the correct one can be found.
Many thanks for reading this long email and I look forward to hearing from you with some possible suggestions to this dilemma.
Many thanks.
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This was the response I received from them:
Thank you for your enquiry.
If you are unsure which of the possible entries found in the indexes refer to the person you are looking for, you may wish to place a research order and we will carry out a three year search of the General Register Office Indexes for the entry you are seeking.
If the name appears frequently in the indexes you can request we search a year or specific quarter of a year and we will check up to 6 possible entries in the name quoted. You will need to make your application by phone or post however.
Additional information may be included on these orders which will help us identify an entry. You say you have a record of her being buried on 29 October 1847 which may indicate she died shortly prior to this.
We are only able to undertake searches where at the very least the year and place of the event together with the full name and surname of the person is provided.
If the search is unsuccessful we will contact you to advise no trace of an entry can be found in the details supplied and a full refund is issued .
Standard Service charge £9.25 - 15 working days
Priority Service charge £23.40 - Despatched the following working day.
For further information please refer to our website: www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate
Regards
Re reading it, not very helpful at all. Looks like a standard reply with the addition of the burial information I already gave them plus adding the fact that she probably died shortly prior to burial. ::)
Is there anyone who feels up to going over all this again? Or starting from scratch? Which death may be our Mary was discussed in depth starting around pages 7ish in our previous thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=622788.54. Have any new records come to light in the past 18 months?
Or, should we give up on Mary and move onto something which we haven't covered before?
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Hi Ruskie,
So we have these 4 deaths in Dec q 1847;
Ward Mary
Marylebone
1 152
Ward Mary
St Pancras
1 328 [wrong one – spinster who died of influenza]
Ward Mary
Holborn
2 173
Ward Mary
St James
1 113 [wrong one – Mongibello ordered this and this Mary died in the Poland Street workhouse on 8 December; weeks after "our" Mary was buried.]
You ordered two others and were refunded your money as they were not the correct Mary ... I'm assuming The Marylebone and Holborn ones.
I have checked Dec 1847 deaths using just "Mary" and then "Ward" just in case her name was misspelled ... I can't see anything that fits.
I'm going to reread the Mary parts .... Maybe we've missed something.
deb
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Hi Deb. It is probably worth re reading just in case you spot something.
I decided to post the email I sent to the GRO as well as their response as I don't think I posted it before.
I think we were fairly thorough in the search but I can't help but be a bit sceptical that the GRO searched thoroughly. After all we only have their word for it.
I think we even searched for deaths registered for Mary Bry*son (just in case).
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So we know for sure that the St James and the St Pancras ones are not our Mary but we only have the GRO telling us that the other two are incorrect.
Maybe she was in the infirmary and someone there registered her death and didn't state that she was wife of Matthew Ward. There's a possibility that one of the two remaining death reg. state that a Mary Ward died of a tumour/breast cancer in Oct .
I am at a loss ...but will keep reading. :)
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I'm wondering if ordering Nathaniel White's death (1862) would reveal anything? If NB found out about his real dad, maybe he registered the death. In the previous thread Carole (Siamese girl) found a burial of a Nathaniel White in the workhouse.
"Nathaniel White died in the St Marylebone workhouse on 4 December 1862aged 77 "
Bizarre that Nathaniel Bryceson/White was born in the same workhouse that his (possible) father died in!
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Hi Deb. I just had a fiddle with ordering a d/c from the GRO.
I omitted the age at death in years
Is GRO ref no known? I said 'no'
Year in which the event was registered? I said 1847.
[even if her death was registered late or the following year for some reason surely the GRO searches should have picked it up?]
The form says: If you aren't supplying a GRO reference and don't know the exact date of event you can enter a year to be searched - we will search the specified year and one either side.
If you don't know the required information and cannot complete the required criteria you can phone or write. :(
Next page the following needs to be completed:
Year death was registered [* are required fields]
surname *
forenames*
date of death* (if you don't know exact date enter 01/01/1847 and we will search the specified year and one either side)
age at death
place of death or last known address*
marital status
I just filled in her name, and for place of death/last known address, I wrote unknown, and I was allowed through the system to the next page. I didn't go as far as paying but I wonder if it will accept "unknown"? :)
I also checked through my old emails for refunds on death certificates I have ordered:
Mary Ward died 1 Jan 1847 in Richmond Buildings
Mary Ward died 1 Jan 1847 in Middlesex
Receipt for Mary Ward 1847 St Pancras vol 1 page 328 [wrong one]
The spiel with the refund emails:
We have been unable to process your application, please refer to the paragraph below.
We have searched the indexes for events registered in England and Wales during the years specified (1846-1848). We have been unable to find any entry with the details you provided.
I don't believe that I gave the GRO reference numbers on the two orders which I received refunds for, but the search should have covered all of the deaths for all Mary Wards from 1846 to 1848 in Middlesex. :-\
Maybe giving an address is where I went wrong?
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I'm wondering if ordering Nathaniel White's death (1862) would reveal anything? If NB found out about his real dad, maybe he registered the death. In the previous thread Carole (Siamese girl) found a burial of a Nathaniel White in the workhouse.
"Nathaniel White died in the St Marylebone workhouse on 4 December 1862aged 77 "
Bizarre that Nathaniel Bryceson/White was born in the same workhouse that his (possible) father died in!
Quite a co-incidence. It might be worth a punt. I will think about maybe ordering it tomorrow. ;)
I was also wondering if Granny Shepard's d/c would be worth buying though I don't think it will tell us much.
I'm signing off in a minute Deb. :(
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hmmmm
I'm not sure how they would know who is the right Mary without any 'real' details.
Could you put place of death as London instead of Middlesex ...
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Granny Shepard's burial ..
20th Nov 1851
Parish of St Pancras
Mary Shepard buried, age 80, abode: Infirmary
Now to find death registration or do we have that somewhere already?
Bye for now, Ruskie! :)
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I must be going mad! 8)
I can't find Granny Shepard's death registration .............. ::)
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Hello all
Rather than trying GRO - is it worth phoning the Sup Registrar of the areas in question and having a chat with them explaining what the problem is and why we would like the information. I know that some of us are abroad but if I have all the details I would be willing to give it a go.
Nesta
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Hi nesta :)
That would be brilliant!
We have Mary Ward (wife of Matthew Ward), b 1797 and buried 29 Oct 1847:
Burial - St Anne, Soho
Mary Ward, Richmond Buildings, age 50
(We have never been able to find Mary Ward nee Shepard on the 1841 census. However, her son and brother were living in Richmond Buildings in 1851) Matthew Ward, her husband, was of the same place when he married Mary and died there Mar 1851)
There were 4 possible death registrations. 2 were not her.
These are the others:
Dec q 1847:
Ward Mary
Marylebone
1 152
Ward Mary
Holborn
2 173
She may have died of some kind of tumour or cancer.
What other info would you need?
Thanks so much!
deb
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No problem - will give it a try tomorrow.
I will write out a summary of my understanding of the situation later and post it up so you can amend if need be.
What are the numbers below the details ?
Thanks
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Those are the reference numbers: Volume and page numbers.
Ward Mary
Dec quarter 1847
Marylebone
Volume 1
Page 152
Ward Mary
Dec q 1847
Holborn
Volume 2
Page 173
:)
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Excellent Nesta - thank you for the kind offer.
Those volume and page numbers only relate to the GRO system. (ie the mob now located in Southport). I believe that local register offices have their own system and the GRO numbers mean nothing to them.
We have also considered the possibility that Mary's death registration was never sent to the GRO, (therefore omitted for some reason) which means that it wouldn't appear on Freebmd.
Deb has given you all the facts that we know about Mary, however depending on where Mary died, and who the informant was, some/most/any/all of these facts may not have been known - possibly not even her exact age. :-\ (so we probably need to be flexible with that too - as she had been so ill for so long she may have looked older than 50 :-\)
Although she may have had cancer her official cause of death may have been something other than that (cholera? pneumonia?) so we also need to keep an open mind regarding that as well. When reading the diary there was so much speculation as to exactly what Mary's ailment was, that this is probably one of the main reasons we are interested in her death certificate. :)
The one definite is the date and place of burial, so she must died shortly before 29 October 1847 and within a reasonable distance to St Anne, Soho where she was buried.
I am keeping my fingers crossed - good luck.
............................
Deb, you might be right about place of death as London rather than Middlesex. I will see how Nesta gets on, and give that a try if she has no success.
Re Granny Shepard ... I thought we had at least one possibility for her death registration, but where might it be hiding? ::)
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Hi Ruskie
Good advice for nesta ... :D
I have searched and searched for Granny Shepard's death registration to no avail.
Can you or anyone else spot it! She was buried Nov 1851 ... I can't believe that Mary Ward and her mother, Mary Shepard, don't have their death's registered!
I have been on the hunt for Nathaniel White ...there is an IGI for him along with siblings...all children of Charles and Sarah. I was hoping that someone in Nat's diary may have been relatives.
I wonder if noting the names he discusses may be worth while? eg: There are a few Thomas people (Sarah and Eliza otherwise Ann and a Thomas or James) all living at 22 James Street ...who are they?
I found a Sarah And Eliza Thomas living in St Pancras ..both dress makers. I need to find the info.
Also a coincidence: Nathaniel White, possible father of NB, was from Watford, Hertfordshire. Nathaniel Bryceson’s wife Sarah Clark was bc 1826, Barnet Herts. In 1851 she is living in Finsbury, Islington as a servant. Another servant in the household is Maria Long b Ware Herts. (both 25). Maria Long is a witness to NB and Sarah’s marriage. Can we find Hertford connections?
IGI for Nathaniel White:
Oh by the way I did find a James White with wife, Jane living in John’s st, Stepney in 1841. He’s 60 (bc 1781), not born in county and is a j (journeyman) Carpenter. Nathaniel White was a chair maker on the censuses and Cabinet maker according to Nat's marriage to Sarah Clark. Could James be his brother?
All children of Charles and Sarah chr. St Mary's, Watford, Hertford:
Charles White 30 June 1782
William White 30 June 1782
Thomas Truelove White 7 March 1784
Nathan... White 3 June 1785
Sarah White 4 March 1787
There is a James White chr. April 1780 in the right place s/o Charles ... no mother mentioned
deb
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You are the best Deb. :-*
Great thinking and great finds. It all sounds very feasible.
I'll have a look for Granny Shephard's death registration, though if you can't find a likely one, I'm not sure I can. Odd though that I seem to remember that we found one ....
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Please find Granny Shepard ... It's so weird that I can't see her.
I searched Mary Shep*d/ She*d and then just the surname. I even went back to check the year of burial just in case.
Maybe I'm just not seeing it. 8) ::)
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Hello
Have phoned the two Registrars Offices - one was very helpful; the other one not so much.
1. Westminster - which is where the Marylebone Registers are held. If we write to them with as much details as we can they will do a search of their registers for us. We need to enclose a cheque or Postal Order for £10 and a SAE they will return the payment to us if we cannot find it. Very helpful
2. Camden which is where the Holborn Registers are held. They tried by referring me to FindMyPast as they did not have any registers that early. I said that the National Archive said that they had them. He finally said if we write to them with as much information as we can they will do a search for us - they charge £10 for the search and £10 for the cert. They will refund the certificate charge if they cannot find anything - he did not have much idea - kepat having to ask.
I think that maybe the best thing would be to try Westminster first.
N
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Nesta, it is SO good of you to go to all that trouble. :)
Nathaniel's Diary was acquired by and is held at Westminster Archives. The staff there are very helpful. Mongibello is a volunteer there and he has already looked for Mary's death for us. He was unable to find it, so ordered it from the GRO and it was not our Mary. However I think he looked only for the Mary Ward death registered in St James 1/113 (this one died on 8 Dec after our Mary had been buried). I am unsure if he did a general search. I would not be surprised if the person you spoke to at Westminster knew exactly who you were searching for. ;)
Mary's mother Granny Shepard was buried in St Pancras in 1851. Her father John was buried in St Pancras Parish Chapel (Borough of Camden). Sadly I would put money on Camden to hold Mary's death certificate (if anyone has it :-\), even though Mary was buried in St Anne Soho not St Pancras. I may be wrong of course. Does not inspire confidence when the person you talk to doesn't know the answers to your questions either. Also makes me wonder how thorough a search they will do .... wonder if any rootschatters live near Camden. ;D
Lets wait to see what others think ... :-\ Perhaps we could ask Mongibello to check again? :-\
Like Deb I have not been able to find Granny Shepard's death registration either. Strange. Odd. Frustrating ....
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Hi everyone,
Claire, Thank you for your post with info on Charlotte Street and surrounding areas. I think we have all searched for clues by googling but it's great to have your link as it directs us to a specific area/street immediately! :)
Nesta ... Thank you for taking the time to call them. Like you, we all wish they could answer our questions without the run around, albeit they were nice about it! :)
Ruskie ... I'm glad I'm not the only one who can't find Granny Shepard's death. Do you think NB decided not to register his mum and granny?? ;D Seriously though, where is Granny? :'(
I have googled Holborn and Marylebone (the two places that could hold Mary's death details) and then gone to maps ...they seem to be about the same distance from St Pancras in opposite directions.
Oh what to do? I am contemplating buying the certs just to get it over with ! 8)
I shall sleep on it ...
deb
added: Matthew Ward was of Richmond Buildings and was registered in Strand which is closer to Holborn than Marylebone. (of course I am using just very basic directions on google maps so I could be wrong!)
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Hi
Ruskie - Mongibello will have looked in Westminster Archives which is a separate entity to Westminster Registry Office. The Birth, Deathj and Marriage Registers are not available for public searching through the archives - something we are arguing about in the UK at the moment !
Deb - there seemed to be a lot of to-ing and fro-ing between the registration districts in the period in question from the google I did on marylebone registrar's an holborn
Would you like me to write to both ? I will be happy to do so - if you would please summarise what info we already have on her for me to put in the letter as they asked for as much information as possibe.
Thanks
N
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Hi Nesta, Well I am confused now. I did not realise you phoned the Westminster Register Office rather than Westminster Archives. Sorry about that.
I think I am correct in thinking that as a volunteer, Mongibello has access to some documents which the general public do not, however if they do not hold bmd certificates then obviously he cannot search through them.
Very nice of you to offer to send them a snail mail letter. I will see if I can work out a letter which gives all the information as we know it, but in the mean time see my Reply #74 on Page 9 which is the email I sent to the GRO. Obviously this letter will need tweeking before we sent it to the Register Office but I think the basics are there.
Getting late here for me but I will see what I can come up with tomorrow if no body beats me to it. ;)
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HI Ruskei
any chance of the information so that I can write to the Registrars.
Thank you
Nesta
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Sorry Nesta, have been snowed under with other things and unable to concentrate on this quest. I will leave myself a note to compose a letter. :)
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Its OK - me too !
Have just read my post and its a bit short and to the point - sorry didn;t mean it like that just posted very quickly in my break whilst having a look at rootschat
Nesta
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Its OK - me too !
Have just read my post and its a bit short and to the point - sorry didn;t mean it like that just posted very quickly in my break whilst having a look at rootschat
Nesta
;D No worries Nesta. ;)
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Draft letter PM'd to Nesta. ;D
Keeping everything crossed for a good outcome.
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Granny Shepard :)
Mary Sheppard
St Pancras, Middlesex, London
Vol: 1
Page: 0228
October - December 1851
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Granny Shepard :)
Mary Sheppard
St Pancras, Middlesex, London
Vol: 1
Page: 0228
October - December 1851
Could be her, thanks hasta. :)
Very odd that I remember that we had found a possible death for Granny Sheppard, then just a few days ago neither Deb nor I could find any at all. Now, you have found this one.
What does everyone think about this death? Look like a good bet? ;)
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Hi everyone,
I hadn't received any notices and decided to check in. :) I, too, have been a bit bogged down with other things.
That death reg. for Mary Sheppard looks great. Thanks hasta!!!! I still can't spot it on Ancestry :-\
Did you find it on FindMyPast?
deb
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Hi deb usa
No it's not on Ancestry, but is on FindMyPast and FreeBMD.
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I took a look at Percy Passage today finally. It's really hard to take photos though due to the narrowness. All you can do is stand at either end and shoot down it really. (Almost made a video while walking down it, but it's so busy at lunchtimes and my nerve failed me :-\)
Anyway the pics concentrate on the south side as that's the side least changed from Nat's day (as per previous discussion the north-side buildings have been completely replaced since then.) Hopefully you can see from the photos that there are several doorways and windows in the south side, although all we can do really is speculate about what they once might have been.
(http://s2.postimg.org/ec9m0ja4p/IMG_0094.jpg)
(http://s2.postimg.org/40x97vifd/IMG_0095.jpg)
(http://s2.postimg.org/6gz2lq0i1/IMG_0097.jpg)
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Fabulous! Thank you drykid! Some of those buildings look quite old don't they? Perhaps contemporary with Nat and his book shop? I suppose it is possible to imagine some doorways and shop windows in that narrow space. ;)
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Idly browsing and found this which I thought might be of interest, if anyone is still interested :):
https://appreciatingoldbooks.wordpress.com/2013/06/06/an-1844-edition-of-john-bunyans-the-pilgrims-progress-with-an-inscription/
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That's really fascinating I wonder if she is the same lady as our dear Nat mentioned.
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Hi everyone,
Ruskie ...what a fantastic find ... It has to be our Mrs. "Skiriker"!!! LOL
Did Nat ever mention how old she was and what she looked like?
I quote from the link you found Ruskie; "Later adding a description of Mrs Sanigear ‘She is not easily forgotten; her formal dress, close cap, and snowy neckerchief – pinned down as you see in portraits of some sixty or seventy years ago – and above all, the earnest steadfast expression of her face , telling of firmness of the most immovable kind, softened by a world of affection in her deep brown eyes"
It's so strange that this came up now as I searched for anything new on NB on Saturday. Today I was also searching ebay for English antique diaries ... I found one that I'm thinking of buying as I think you had mentioned that you had read it:
DIARY of a COUNTRY PARSON by JAMES WOODFORDE/18th CENTURY ENGLAND/PICS/1926
Deb
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A few more snippets on Mrs. Sanigear:
from Notes and Queries
Mary Bunyan b 1762 d/o George B and Mary Hayward (married St Nicholas Church, Nottingham in 1754)
Mary B = Mr Sanigear, cashier in the Bank of England. She died Dec 11, 1856
Portrait of John Bunyan formerly in her possession is now the property of Mr. Wilkinson, Clinton St, Nottingham.
From Gentleman's Magazine;
Feb 1857
At Mr Selby's Cromwell St, Nottingham aged 94, Mrs. Mary Sanigear, a lineal descendant of John Bunyan
Deb
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Hello Deb. :-*
Long time no see. ;D
Hi Nesta - Yes, that is our Mrs Skirricker.
I am wondering if that is actually her handwriting? Did she write the dedication inside the book? Is that the handwriting of an 88 year old? Probably not ....
Deb, yes, I think Nat did mention her age, but as he gave some incorrect info about Mrs"Skirricker", then might have got her age wrong too. I had a half hearted look at some of our threads yesterday but did not (re)delve into them enough to notice how old Nat thought she was. Do the dates tally with her being 88 in 1849 as per the dedication in the book?
I wonder if we could dig up the portrait of John Bunyan which went to Mr Wilkinson? Might it still be around?
Deb, yes I do have a modern version of the James Woodforde diary. I bought it ages ago, put it away, forgot about it, dug it out again, read some of it, put it away, forgot about it ... ::) (I am easily distracted :-[) I think it was Daisy (apologies if I have got that wrong) Siamese Girl
who is a mad diary reader and recommended it. I find them fascinating - particularly the boring day to day routines. I really enjoyed the Diary of Thomas Turner - another one you might like to track down.
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Hi Ruskie :)
So great to see you too!
I reread some of our threads and found that what I had posted today had already been found.... Just Google Mrs. Sanigear. :)
I also saw that we are on another thread although drykid has posted stuff regarding Nat and his bookshop on Percy Passage here. Regardless it's fun to be back on the hunt.
Another thought ... we have missing people and their deaths:
We have never found out what happened to Ann Fox (she still drives me nuts to this day LOL), or Mary Shepard/Bryceson/Ward, her death registration or Matthew Ward, his burial or death reg. I recall that 'granny' Mary Shepard's death reg was found but we didn't buy her cert.
I found this today whilst looking for Matthew Ward.
He was apprenticed in 1803 to a Mrs Blackaller, milliner ...maybe that's were his trade as tailor stems from. Apprenticed 19 Jan 1803 - Strand
Also I wonder if this was him, Matthew Ward, Limehouse, ...in and out of the workhouse. At one time he was in as a result of a 'bad leg'.
Mile End Old Town Workhouse
Tower Hamlets, Stepney
dates:
2 Jul 1849
26 Oct 1848
23 Jun 1849... discharged.
We can't find him in 1851.
Matthew Ward was a tailor and Ann Fox lived in the same flat/room as Sophia olive did in 1841. Sophia was a dress maker as was a Female Powell (can't recall her name) ... I wonder if this was how NB met AF through MW and the dress makers?
Deb
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Ruskie
I only decided to look up the Parson's diary as I had been investigating NB again on Saturday (before you posted) and had seen something you had written about the diary...how weird is that?! Siamese Girl had stated how she had been reading the diary of Thomas Turner and Sarah Hurst. I have no idea why I decided to look NB up again.
I still have blackboard in the garage with this on it: "Ruskie, (your phone number), Nathaniel Bryceson born 1826 Middlesex, DO NOT ERASE" ............ How funny is that?!
Deb :)
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Deb, a while back, feeling nostalgic, I re read ALL of our threads in a couple of sittings. :P I did send you a PM at that time but didn't hear anything from you. Never mind.
Yeah, I wasn't sure which thread to add the book dedication to - and this one was the first that came up.
On my desktop I have "post it notes" with information about Granny Shepard and Mary Ward, which I see every day. I certainly have not forgotten Nat OR all the gaps we have. I don't like gaps.
I have:
Granny Shepard:
20th Nov 1851
Parish of St Pancras
Mary Shepard buried
age 80
abode: Infirmary
10 May 1796
John Shepard = Mary Lea
St Andrew by the Wardrobe
burial - John Shepard
2nd May 1831p
St Pancras Parish Chapel (Borough Camden)
John Sheppard of Stephen St
age 63 yrs
AND
From FindMyPast
Westminter Burials
October 19 1847
Mary Ward
Richmond Bdgs
50yrs
Where buried: '2nd ground' (almost all others seem to be the same
dues: £1 1s 8d
Yes, sadly, Ann Fox is still missing - :'(
Mary Ward/Bryceson/Shepard's d/c has not been found. :'(
Matthew Ward we found -:
27th March 1851
Death - Matthew Ward
Registration District: Strand, sub-district of St Anne Westminster
9 Richmond Buildings
age 66
occupation: Tailor
cause of death: Chronic Bronchitis
Informant: Ann Gullan present at death 9 Richmond Buildings Soho. (Ann is a neighbour).
We can't find Mary Bryceson in 1841 even though when she married Matthew Ward 27 Jun 1841, she said she was living in Dean St. I think we checked all of Dean St but couldn't find her. I am wondering if some census did not survive, because she should be there. We think that our Nat was living with the Vaggs in Richmond Buildings enumerated mistakenly under Vagg.
Interesting finds about Matthew Ward - I don't think they've come up before in any of our threads have they?
Added: Yes, of course, it was Siamese Girl who was diary mad. :)
I also read Thomas Turner and Sarah Hurst. I preferred Thomas Turner as he seems like a really nice man (his house still survives and jolly nice it is too). Sarah Hurst's story was interesting but I found her turn of phrase a little tiresome as she kept asking the Lord to give her strength and similar type pleas. I think you learn lots of social history through reading these diaries. It is so sad when they end ...
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Dear all,
I hope this is the right thread on which to post this news...
Nathaniel Bryceson's diary will be published again online, in the same way as before (ie each entry on the appropriate day, throughout the year), from 1 January 2016.
This time it's in a blog format, accompanied by a weekly podcast, and you can follow by subscribing to the blog and/or the podcast or following @VictorianClerk on Twitter. Should you wish, you can add comments to the blog posts themselves.
Here are the links:
- Blog (and podcast): https://victorianclerk.wordpress.com/
- Podcast on iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/life-loves-victorian-clerk/id1069837849
- Nathaniel Bryceson on Twitter: https://twitter.com/VictorianClerk
We hope you enjoy it. Merry Christmas!
Ali (on behalf of Westminster Libraries & Archives)
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WONDERFUL!!!!!!! I am so excited to hear this news. Thank you SO much for letting us know Ali.
It would be great to get some new followers reading the blog, because it's a fascinating insight into Nathaniel's life and times, but also in the hope that we can fill in some of the gaps in our findings from the threads here on rootschat back in 2010.
Would it be possible (or worthwhile) putting in a link to our first (of MANY) rootschat threads on your blog, possibly included in an intro if you have one? There is SO much to read that it would only be of interest to the dedicated or obsessed, but some may find our discussions of interest.
I'm sure everyone at Westminster Archives remembers our obsession with Nathaniel, his diary and his world.
We also have a timeline of events related to Nathaniel and his family (which has been floating around several of the threads over the years). Let me know if you are interested and I will forward it to you.
:)
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The link here:
https://victorianclerk.wordpress.com/?blogsub=confirming#blog_subscription-3
At the bottom of the page you can enter your email address to sign up to follow the blog via email. :)
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From the Westminster Archives site:
The diary existed only in manuscript until 2010, when it was serialised on the Westminster City Council website. To celebrate the 170th anniversary of the diary, this blog is another chance to read of the experiences and innermost thoughts of a remarkable young diarist and gain a rare insight into London life in the early Victorian era.
Each entry will be published on the appropriate day in 2016 – with the first appearing on New Year’s Day. We will also be posting weekly podcasts of the diary entries, read aloud by an Archives volunteer. Subscribe to the blog to receive updates as they appear.
170 years! :o
It is wonderful that we have the opportunity to revisit his diary again, and to bring Nathaniel and his world back to life. :)
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Ali,
I've just signed up to follow the blog posts, and note that it is not possible for you to mention our 2010 obsession and finds surrounding the publication of Nathaniel's diary.
Would it be possible (or worthwhile) putting in a link to our first (of MANY) rootschat threads on your blog, possibly included in an intro if you have one? There is SO much to read that it would only be of interest to the dedicated or obsessed, but some may find our discussions of interest.
............... We also have a timeline of events related to Nathaniel and his family (which has been floating around several of the threads over the years). Let me know if you are interested and I will forward it to you.
However I am wondering if you would mind if we posted links to rootschat discussions within our comments on the blog?
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Have signed up to the blog and will listen to the podcasts :). Looking forward to this!
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Good to have you on board Sharon.
I'm not sure that the blog/podcasts will whip up quite the same frenzy as the diary did for us on rootschat in 2010, but I really hope they do. We need some new blood and potential new researchers to try to help fill in our blanks. ;)
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Hello again
Yes, it would be great if you could post links to the existing discussions. You can't post comments on 'pages' (eg: Intro to the diary) but you can on 'posts', so the one you might want to start with is the 'Step back in time...' post (https://victorianclerk.wordpress.com/2015/12/19/step-back-in-time-to-victorian-pimlico/). Please note that comments are moderated, so there may be a delay before they appear.
It would be great to see discussion happening on the site itself, rather than all readers having to jump back to this site all the time, but obviously there is a lot of background here so it's a matter of getting a balance between what has been worked through on here already (perhaps the conclusions could be summarised as comments on the WordPress site?) and what new discussions may happen. As each day's entry will be a separate post, it would be great if information and discussions relevant to each entry could be added to the appropriate posts - without giving away too much of what is yet to be revealed - whether or not it will work out like that remains to be seen!
You are probably right that it won't generate quite the same frenzy this time around, but we hope that the new format and the podcasts will prove to be worth revisiting for those of you who enjoyed it so much in 2010.
Ali
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One thing I forgot to say:
The individual diary entries will be posted in the late afternoon / early evening of the appropriate day. We chose this time, rather than making them live from midnight, as it seemed to be closer to the time than Nathaniel would likely have written them. So you should not assume that something has gone wrong when 1 January's post is not live earlier in the day!
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Thanks for the reply Ali and Happy New Year to you and everyone at Westminster Archives. :)
I agree for any new followers that keeping the discussion on the site is necessary - jumping back and forth to the extremely long and detailed rootschat threads could be very laborious and confusing for everyone. I'm fairly sure the length of the threads will deter all but the most dedicated/obsessed. Much of our discussions relates to speculation about people and places - eg "Mrs Skirricker" which bulks up the threads, and this won't occur on the new blog (not from rootschatters at least, as many of these mysteries have been solved). I am looking forward to reading other's comments though.
Nathaniel's diary is always worth revisiting (I know a couple of us have read through the entire diary and all of the threads since 2010). I wish you the best of luck and hope it continues to generate a lot of interest in the new format, and manages to reel in lots of new followers.
I (and I'm sure others) have/had several ideas but I lack the technical skills to execute them - for example, a map of the places Nathaniel and those in his diary live and frequent. I know a lot of time was spent first time round, hunting down all the places he mentions in the diary. It would be nice to see them on a contemporary map which might be useful for those not familiar with London and surrounds. And, if they could be found, drawings and photographs (though many would not be contemporary) of any locations would add another element to the story and put it in context. A "then and now" version of map and photos/illustrations would be ideal.
Just my imagination running away with me .... ;)
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All great ideas... and they may come to something. But I hope you'll excuse me if I just try to make sure the blog, podcast and tweets run smoothly first ;)
Happy New Year to you!
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All great ideas... and they may come to something. But I hope you'll excuse me if I just try to make sure the blog, podcast and tweets run smoothly first ;)
Happy New Year to you!
Of course. Any wild ideas would be something for another project another time....
Day 1 - and I am enjoying the blog so far. ;)
I am already frustrated that I can't find fellow clerk Edward Heskett in the 1851 census. :)
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First of 'Nathaniel's' podcasts on Saturday :-)
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First of 'Nathaniel's' podcasts on Saturday :-)
[/quote
Hi all, this is Steven, Nathaniel's 3x great grandson. I missed the revisited thread. I have also found an article about Nathaniel as an old man which j can share. Is this the latest thread? ]
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Hello again Steven! ;D
I was thinking about Nathaniel's mother Mary only yesterday ... remembering how we could not find her death certificate and wondering if any new records have come to light (or online) recently and if it might be worth revisiting the challenge.
Regarding the article about Nathaniel when he was an old man ... I think we may already have this? It was posted by a Lea descendant if I remember correctly - she found it amongst some family papers.
But please, yes, do share the article anyway. With a bit of luck it will revive interest in the threads. There are still a number of loose ends to tie up. ;D
Lovely to hear from you again. ;D
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Hi all, I stumbled across this by chance this evening. Now the ages are on the new GRO death indexes, I found that Mary Ward whose death was registered in Marylebone in 4th Q of 1847 was aged 50 at the time of death.
The Holborn death was at age 40, the St James' at age 62, St Pancras at 67. The other Mary Wards were either children or well outside London.
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Hi all, I stumbled across this by chance this evening. Now the ages are on the new GRO death indexes, I found that Mary Ward whose death was registered in Marylebone in 4th Q of 1847 was aged 50 at the time of death.
The Holborn death was at age 40, the St James' at age 62, St Pancras at 67. The other Mary Wards were either children or well outside London.
Oooo, that’s interesting alpinecottage. I will have a closer look at those later when I am on my PC where all my notes are stored. I think I might have even purchased a (wrong) d/c but can’t recall the details. I need to do some serious revisison. :)
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Are we not confident that Mary Ward (nee Shepherd, previously Bryceson), Nathaniel's mum died in 1850 when she was living in Richmond Buildings and is buried in St Anne's Soho? The Marylebone death entry would make sense given her proximity to and former associations with the area. From the diary it seems she was struggling with cancer in 1946.
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Hi again Steven,
We have Mary’s burial as follows:
Westminster Burials
Mary Ward
Richmond Bdgs
50 yrs
Where buried: ‘2nd gound’
Dues: £1 1s 8d
The following certificates have been purchased (the first one appears to be the one alpinecottage mentioned):
Dec q 1847
St James Westminster
London
1 113
[this Mary died in the Poland Street workhouse on 8 December; weeks after "our" Mary was buried.]
Mary Ward
Dec 1847
Pancras London
1 328
[a spinster who died from influenza]
Yes, we believe Mary seems to have had cancer, but were very curious to know the official cause of death.
There may be some missing records, which would explain why we can’t find her. There is further detail about the search at reply #41. :)
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The following certificates have been purchased (the first one appears to be the one alpinecottage mentioned):
Dec q 1847
St James Westminster
London
1 113
[this Mary died in the Poland Street workhouse on 8 December; weeks after "our" Mary was buried.]
Mary Ward
Dec 1847
Pancras London
1 328
[a spinster who died from influenza]
No, the one I'm suggesting is the correct one is the one registered at Marylebone - her age at death was 50 which matches the burial record. The St James registered one was 62 years old. My understanding is that the Marylebone certificate has not been bought.
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Ah, thanks alpinecottage. I will have a look at that one. ;)
Added: a passing thought ... I requested the GRO search with vague perameters to try to catch the right death, but they didn’t pick this one up. Could be a number of reasons for this I suppose - my perameters were too specific or if they did a physical search they may have missed it? :-\
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I found the Marylebone death - volume 1 page 152. It appears on the GRO and on Freebmd.
I can’t work out how we missed this one before. :-\ Why didn’t the GRO didn’t pick it up either?
Does anyone know if new records have come online in the past couple of years?
It bothers me that we missed this .... there were many of us searching for her likely death registration, many of us speculating on her illness and cause of death. Surely we can’t all have overlooked this Marylebone death? :(
As it is so long ago, I can’t recall the full details of the search though ....
I will consider purchasing it. :)
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The Indexes that were available on Freebmd, Ancestry, Findmypast etc were taken from the indexes originally compiled by the GRO clerks. In the last couple of years, completely new Indexes for early births and deaths have been compiled by (or on behalf of) the GRO, which are publicly available to search here https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
The certificates are obviously the same but the indexes seem better and they include age at death for the early death certificates and mother's maiden name for early birth certificates. Does beg the question about 1. what's on the Marylebone certificate and 2. how well the GRO staff searched ;D ;D
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I wondered how well the GRO staff searched too. I’m sure they have more pressing duties than searching for an 1847 death though. :)
I’m 100% sure one of us would have spotted that death years ago if it had been in the index.
Curious.
... but at least you have found it now. :) I will do some double checking to see of I can locate my previous searches, then seriously consider ordering it in the next few days.
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... but at least you have found it now. :)
We hope!! ;D
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I've just checked the old index - the death is there. It must be that something is a very poor match (assuming this is Nathaniel's mum's death)
Whether to buy it depends on how much you want to know what it says, I suppose. We need to crowdfund this quest ;D ;D
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Hi all, I am blogging about the diary throught this year. See here.
https://wordpress.com/posts/nathanielbryceson.wordpress.com
Tom Bryceson
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Hello Tom. Welcome to rootschat and our wonderful Nathaniel Bryceson threads. :) Have you read all of them? :)
I presume you are a descendant with a surname like Bryceson? If so, who are you descended from?
Is there any other way to view your blog? Wordpress is asking for log in details, or requesting I create an account ....
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When I followed the link to the Wordpress page I found a link to Tom's blog there. It's in quite small print, not obvious, but through it I could read the blog without signing up to anything. It's well worth it, very interesting, congratulations Tom.
Drosybont
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Happy New Year, Ruskie!
If you click on Tom's link, you can either create an account or you can click on the blue phrase which says "or visit Nathaniel Bryceson". It takes you to Tom's most promising blog. Only got to keep it going for 360 more days, Tom!
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When I followed the link to the Wordpress page I found a link to Tom's blog there. It's in quite small print, not obvious, but through it I could read the blog without signing up to anything. It's well worth it, very interesting, congratulations Tom.
Drosybont
Thanks for that. I will have a closer look. :)
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Happy New Year, Ruskie!
If you click on Tom's link, you can either create an account or you can click on the blue phrase which says "or visit Nathaniel Bryceson". It takes you to Tom's most promising blog. Only got to keep it going for 360 more days, Tom!
Happy New Year to you too alpinecottage. :)
Thanks for the instructions to find Tom’s blog.
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Just catching up with your blog Tom. I am enjoying it, especially the additional information, pictures and other interesting snippets. :)
If you have read even one or two of our mega threads you will see how obsessed some of us were with your ancestor back in 2010. I think we did fairly well to fill in some of the background of Nathaniel’s family and his life and times, but I see that you are taking this further. There are still some frustrating mysteries which we have been unable to solve, so I am hoping that you can help with those. :)
I’m sure I will have many questions for you as your blog progresses, but firstly can I ask:
When did you first become aware of Nathaniel’s diary?
Do you write the blog daily, or have you prepared some (or all) of it ahead of time?
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Hi all, time for a confession! This is Steven here (Nathaniel's 3x great grandson). I have used some creative licence to create the character of Tom and as part of a creative writing project which I hope will lead to a book. I've been wanting to do this for sometime but have only just finished a history PhD after 8 years and haven't had the capacity. I have all sorts of ideas of what to do with the book and hope it will develop as the year progresses and I really immerse myself in the diary. I am so grateful to all the info on this forum. I am going to plug the forum in my next post and will give lots of credit to you throughout the year and, hopefully, in a book. Please keep sharing ideas and information as the year progresses. Peace to all, "Tom".
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Oh Steven!!! You kidder!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Nothing wrong with a nom de plume between friends I suppose.
I'm glad you told us though - saves us going over old ground and (I already feel foolish for my previous post). ;D
Keep in mind that we can supply you with a fair amount of information if you need it (plus I have one or two certificates). I have compiled a list of coffee houses for example, though that was just for my own amusement rather than being useful for anything or anyone.
I also admit to being a bit vague on some of the details after all this time, so will need to recap, though I did revisit a few diary entries last year and even tried to amend the Wikipedia article which I think contained an error or two. (sorry if you wrote that) :-[
Congratulations on gaining your PhD! Keep us informed on your progress - blog, book - everything ... don't be a stranger! :)
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Thanks Ruskie. This is going to be fun.
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Actually "Tom", I had my suspicions about you after reading your first few blogs ;D - the writing is far too mature for a 19 yr old and your research approach is too sophisticated. I think you would have been rumbled fairly quickly!
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He, he... yes, I definitely need to work on being 19 again!
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He, he... yes, I definitely need to work on being 19 again!
;D Think that applies to most of us on here!!
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Actually "Tom", I had my suspicions about you after reading your first few blogs ;D - the writing is far too mature for a 19 yr old and your research approach is too sophisticated. I think you would have been rumbled fairly quickly!
I had no idea. I started reading the blog "yesterday" and worked my way backwards.
I didn't get to the first entry, where 'Tom' mentions that he was 19, until today, after Tom's true identity had already been revealed. ;D
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Oh Steven!!! You kidder!!!! ;D ;D .....
Keep in mind that we can supply you with a fair amount of information if you need it (plus I have one or two certificates). I have compiled a list of coffee houses for example, though that was just for my own amusement rather than being useful for anything or anyone.
/quote]/
Hi Ruski, do you have any information about my ancestor's coffee house please?
1871 Census: 25 Marlborough Tavern, Holloway.Thomas Rassell (65) Coffee House Keeper.
Thanks in advance ☺
Heather
Oops! Sorry, messed up the quote 😕
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Ruskie, I would definitely be interested in the list of coffee houses."Tom".