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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: jupiter1 on Tuesday 20 May 14 22:31 BST (UK)

Title: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jupiter1 on Tuesday 20 May 14 22:31 BST (UK)
May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?

May Victoria FLEMING
Born 28-May-1897:  Died 15-Aug-1898
Both at 46 Warmer Place, Bethnal Green, London.
Parents were Alfred FLEMING and Mary Ann (nee SMITH).

Alfred was born abt. 1855, his fathers name was Alfred living at 46 Warmer Plc. at time of marriage. Alfred Bn c1855 and his father were in the timber trade.

Mary Ann born about 1860, her fathers name was George Richard, mother name possibly Caroline all living at 1 Harts Lane at time of Alfred and Mary Ann's marriage. Geo. Richard was a builder.

May Victoria’s parents, Alfred and Mary Ann were married 23-Dec-1885 at the St. Jute parish church, Bethnal Green.

I have documented this family fairly well but over many, many years of searching I have never found any trace of May Victoria’s Paternal Grand parents or Gt. Grand parents or further back.
I have run out of ideas or clues as to how to complete this chapter of my family history.

Any help that anyone can give me will be very greatly appreciated.

Many, many thanks to you all in advance.
Phil H.   

Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: Eyesee on Wednesday 21 May 14 08:37 BST (UK)
1861 - RG 9/251/127/34
5 Nelson Place, Bethnal Green
Alfred FLEMING, head mar 29, Timber porter, born Middlesex, Bethnal Green
Sarah FLEMING, wife mar 26, born ditto
Alfred FLEMING, son 5, born ditto
Sarah FLEMING, dau 3, born ditto
Elizabeth FLEMING, dau 1, born ditto

There is a tree on Ancestry that has Alfred snr married to Sarah Elizabeth HUMMERSTON

Ian C
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: Eyesee on Wednesday 21 May 14 08:57 BST (UK)
Hoxton St John
1853 Dec 11
Alfred FLEMMING, Minor, bachelor, Timber porter, Charles Square, father James William Flemming, labourer
Sarah Elizabeth HUMMERSTON, Minor, spinster, -, Charles Square, father William Hummerston, weaver
Married after banns
He made his mark, she signed, in presence of William Hummerston, Sarah Elizabeth Dawson

St Matthias Bethnal Green
1856 Mar 23
Alfred William, s/o Alfred & Sarah FLEMING, 1 Hart's Lane, Timber merchant, born 1855 Aug 2

Ian C
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: Eyesee on Wednesday 21 May 14 09:06 BST (UK)
In 1891 Alfred and Sarah and some children were at 46 Warner Place.
In 1901 Alfred and Sarah are still at 46 Warner Place, along with son Alfred, his wife Mary Ann and their children. Both Alfreds are Timber Porters

Ian C
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: Eyesee on Wednesday 21 May 14 09:25 BST (UK)
Bethnal Green St Philip
1859 Dec 18, Mary Ann, d/o George Richard & Caroline Sophia SMITH, 3 Ravenscroft Street, Bricklayer, born 1859 Nov 23

Bethnal Green St Matthew
1852 Dec 25
George Richard SMITH, full age, bachelor, Bricklayer, 69 Mount Street, father William Smith, Carpenter
Caroline Sophia MAURAN, full age, spinster, -, 14 King Street, father Thomas Mauran, Painter
Married after Banns
Both made their mark, in presence of William Smith, Dinah Pard??

Ian C
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jupiter1 on Wednesday 21 May 14 23:58 BST (UK)
Ian,
Many thanks for your prompt and thorough replies, they have given me a good lead.
I now need to follow James William FLEMMING, labourer in your second reply back.
I had taken a wrong turn at this point and followed a William (Albert ?) Richard back for some reason.
Your replies have enabled me to fill in a couple of other gaps as well.
Many thanks.
Phil H.
(Wakefield, Tasman.)

Not sure if this is any help or not.
From early 1955 to late 1959 I was a apprentice at Watson-Victor, the Xray/Radar devision of Metropolitan Vickers in Finchley, North London.
The charge hand there was a “Mr ELPHICK”.
Surprisingly nice guy considering us apprentices !
Unfortunately that is all I remember of him.
Cheers.  PH
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jennifer c on Thursday 22 May 14 13:21 BST (UK)
Looks like Sarah was 18 when she married as she is shown as 16 on the 1851 census.

Jennifer
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jennifer c on Thursday 22 May 14 13:30 BST (UK)
Looks like James William married an Ann Chant in 1820 but she is only with her children in 1841 and 1851 gives her as a widow.

Jennifer
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jupiter1 on Thursday 22 May 14 21:30 BST (UK)
Looks like Sarah was 18 when she married as she is shown as 16 on the 1851 census.

Jennifer
Thanks Jennfer, above is correct, I have that
Phil H.
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jupiter1 on Thursday 22 May 14 21:34 BST (UK)
Looks like James William married an Ann Chant in 1820 but she is only with her children in 1841 and 1851 gives her as a widow.

Jennifer

Hi again,   This is good and helpful.  This is the man that I need to trace back.
I will get down to the local LDS FH centre as soon as I can and go through the Census data.
Jame seems to have had a relatively short life.
I guess that he was born about 1800-1810 or so.
Thanks for your help.
Cheers,
 Phil H.
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jennifer c on Thursday 22 May 14 23:59 BST (UK)
James William Fleming bapt St.Leonard Shoreditch 10/10/1798 parents Moses Fleming and Sarah

18/12/1879 Stepney St.Dunstan & All Saints Moses Fleming married Sarah Orange both were widow & widower

17/5/1785 St.Leonard Shoreditch Sarah Marchant married John Orange

Worth looking at.

Jennifer
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jupiter1 on Friday 23 May 14 00:33 BST (UK)
James William Fleming bapt St.Leonard Shoreditch 10/10/1798 parents Moses Fleming and Sarah

18/12/1879 Stepney St.Dunstan & All Saints Moses Fleming married Sarah Orange both were widow & widower

17/5/1785 St.Leonard Shoreditch Sarah Marchant married John Orange

Worth looking at.

Jennifer

Oh dear, It looks awfully like I have taken a wrong turn again.
This doesn't look like my Jms. Wlm FLEMMING.
I do appreciate your help though.

Should this line above read....18/12/1789 ?
18/12/1879 Stepney St.Dunstan & All Saints Moses Fleming married Sarah Orange both were widow & widower

Cheers,   Phil H.

PS I will check it out though when I go to the LDS FH centre.
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jennifer c on Friday 23 May 14 22:43 BST (UK)
Yes, 1789.

What do you know that makes you think these are not the people you are looking for?

Jennifer
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jupiter1 on Friday 23 May 14 23:00 BST (UK)
Hi Jennifer,
I know that this sounds funny but the names Moses, Orange and Marchant are very foreign to all of the rest of my famiiy tree.
Also May Victoria's parents were related to my Flemings closer to the 1795-1810 period.
May Victoria and my maternal grandmother were either 2nd or 3rd cousins apparently.
Cheers,
              Phil H.

Cousin's in law that should read.
When May Victoria was discussed it was always in hushed, guarded tones !
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jennifer c on Saturday 24 May 14 12:11 BST (UK)
Going back to what you know, May Violet Fleming parents Alfred & Mary Ann nee Smith.

You say she died between the census of 1891 & 1901 46 Warner Place Bethnal Green

1901 census has them at 46 Warner Place with 3 children Alfred 14 Andrew 10 & Bertie 6 a later census gives 4 children born 2 living. This allows for May Victoria to be the other child.

Going back to James William and Ann Flemming (2 MM's)  as I have said Ann is show without JW  by 1841 aged 40 a silk weaver at Hunt Court M.E.N.T she has children James 20 -Diana 15 -Charles 12 -William 10 Alfred 8 -Joseph 6 -George 3. and a widow by 1851.

This should mean James William died prior to 1838?

Looking at baptisms for the children James William was a Weaver like Ann.

Jennifer
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jennifer c on Saturday 24 May 14 12:31 BST (UK)
Marriage to Ann Chant 6th March 1820 first child James William born 16/6/1820 bapt St.Leonards 5/9/1820. Address Plough Yard occ. Weaver.

Ann is in the Bethnal Green Workhouse in 1881 census aged 79 a Weaver.
Jennifer
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jupiter1 on Sunday 25 May 14 05:23 BST (UK)
Quote….
Going back to what you know,
May Violet Fleming parents Alfred & Mary Ann nee Smith.
Un-Quote.

Hi Jennifer,
What I know for sure is…   May Victoria FLEMING Born 28-May-1897:  Died 15-Aug-1898
         Both at 46 Warmer Place, Bethnal Green, London.
         Parents were Alfred FLEMING and Mary Ann (nee SMITH).

I have May’s birth and death cert’s and Alfred and Mary Ann’s marriage cert which gives their ages as 30 and 25 respectively.
Therefore I deduce from this marriage cert that…..

Alfred was born abt. 1855, his fathers name was Alfred living at 46 Warmer Plc. at time of marriage. Alfred Bn c1855 and his father were in the timber trade.

Mary Ann born about 1860, her fathers name was George Richard, mother name possibly Caroline all living at 1 Harts Lane at time of Alfred and Mary Ann's marriage. Geo. Richard was a builder.

End of proven data by cert’s.

I have my maternal grand father’s line traced back to a Charles married to Charlot Symonds on 8-11-1794 at St. Dunstans.
On to his son George Bn 3-2-1797
On to his son Joseph Bn abt 1829
On to his son William Bn 24-2-1851
On toWlm Henry  Bn 17/7/1883 married Lillie Connah Bn 31/8/1887. These my Maternal grand parents.

Lillie always referred to May Victoria as a cousin but she was in fact a 2nd or 3rd cousin in law so she must trace back to one of the people in this list above or one of their children.
Spelling Vickie (or Vicky), the first more likely as all other like names were spelt as in Lillie. I have always assumed that Vickie is short for Victoria.

During the 2nd world war my mother and I lived with Wlm Henry and Lillie while my father was serving in the middle east.

As I mentioned before, any talk of May Victoria was done in guarded tones for some reason so I believe that there is a story to be solved here if possible.
I have been pursuing this story for over 10 years now 
Many thanks for your past help Jennifer. If God gives me enough years I sure I will resolve this.
Cheers,
                Phil H.
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jennifer c on Sunday 25 May 14 11:38 BST (UK)
What did May Victoria die of?

Jennifer
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: jupiter1 on Sunday 25 May 14 21:47 BST (UK)
morbilli bronchitis

It is believed that she went into hospital after a accident and contracted MB there.
Title: Re: May Victoria FLEMING Who is this little girl ?
Post by: Ru on Monday 13 July 15 03:12 BST (UK)
Hi Phil,

……….Is it possible she was adopted by Alfred and Mary Ann?

Her birth certificate doesn't rule out a family adoption before registration and I believe there are no records that can be checked for this period but in reconstructing her family I found another puzzle and wonder if they're connected.

James William Fleming & Ann nee Chant
   1. James William Fleming 1820 - 1910? m.1846 Eliza SHEEN
      ○ James William Fleming 1860 - pre 1911 with Caroline/Carrie: no reasonable option for their marriage found in the GRO index.
         § 6 chn
         1891 Census
         RG12; Piece: 263; Folio 109; Page 45; # 296
         Bethnal Green RD Bethnal Green North SD
         25 Harts Lane, Bethnal Green
         James Fleming / Head / Mar / 31 / Beam Maker / Employed / Mdx, Bethnal Green
         Carrie Fleming / Wife / Mar / 36 /  / Mdx, Shoreditch
         Mary A Fleming / Daur / 7 /  / Mdx, Bethnal Green
         William J Fleming / Son / 5 /  / Mdx, Bethnal Green
         Alice M A Fleming / Daur / 3 /  / Mdx, Bethnal Green
         Henry C Fleming / Son / 1 / / Mdx, Bethnal Green
         
         1901 Census
         RG13; Piece: 285; Folio: 14; Page: 20. #119
         Bethnal Green RD Bethnal Green North SD
         77 George Gardens, Bethnal Green
         James Fleming / Head / Mar / 42 / General Labourer / Worker / Mdx, Bethnal Green
         Caroline Fleming / Wife / Mar / 37 / Trousers Finisher / Worker / Mdx, Bethnal Green
         Mary A E Fleming / Daur / S / 17 / Coat Buttoner / Worker / Mdx, Bethnal Green
         James W Fleming / Son / S / 15 / Railway Messenger / Worker / Mdx, Bethnal Green
         Alice M A Fleming / Daur / 13 /  / Mdx, Bethnal Green
         Anna E / Fleming / Daur / 9 /  / Mdx, Bethnal Green
         Harold A L Fleming / Son / 5 mos /  / Mdx, Bethnal Green
         
         1911 Census
         RG14; Piece: 1422
         Bethnal Green RD Bethnal Green South West SD
         10 Pollard St, Bethnal Green
         3 rooms
         Mrs Caroline Fleming / Head / 47 / Wid / yrs marr not stated / 13 chn bn / 6 chn living / 7 chn dec'd / Office Cleaner / Worker / Bethnal Green
         Alice Fleming / Daur / 23 / Tailoress / Tailors / Worker / Bethnal Green
         Annie Fleming / Daur / 19 / Tailoress / Tailors / Worker / Bethnal Green
         Lawrence Fleming / Son / 10 /  / Bethnal Green
         Henry Fleming / Son / 6 /  / Bethnal Green
         
         They lose Henry during the 1890s and possibly also had the arrival of May Victoria.  If this were true then May Victoria is the third cousin of her new 'siblings' in Alfred and Mary Ann's family (a new daughter into family of three boys?)
      ○ 7 other chn
   2. Alfred Fleming 1833-1914 m Sarah Elizabeth HUMMERSTON
      ○ Alfred Fleming 1856-1920 m Mary Ann SMITH
         § Alfred, Andrew George & Bertie Fleming
      ○ 9 other chn
   3. 7 other chn

Hope this makes sense.

Of course none of this explains the connection to your family! Have you considered yDNA testing? If you have a male Fleming from your tree and one from their tree testing should quickly identify a connection….or not :)

Ruth
Fleming one-name study