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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: fetlar13 on Tuesday 20 May 14 12:53 BST (UK)
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Please see the attached (hopefully) 1855 birth certificate of my Gt Grandfather John Vorwerg Dobson, later to become John William Dobson (long story!)
His mother's maiden name I read as either Mary Ann Summers or Sumners? Can anyone else double check please?
My confusion is caused by the marriage record of Mary Ann and my Gt. Gt. Grandfather John Daniel Stephen Dobson who wed 26/11/1849 in St. Mary Spital Square Church, Tower Hamlets, where Mary Ann names herself as Waller. I thinks she was the widow of a Richard Thomas Waller (died 1848) but I cannot find a marriage of a Waller and Summers or Sumners only a Waller and Brant?
Confused!
Steve
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Looks like Summer to me :)
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Thanks
It looks like that to me as well, but now I can't tie in Mary Ann Summer to Mary Ann Waller on the wedding certificate! Blimey family tree research, must be mad to do it!!
Cheers
Steve
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Ha ha I think we must all be a bit batty ;D
Does it definitely say Waller? Not just terible handwriting & could be Summers?
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Looks like Summer to me too, but this is the GRO copy, copied by hand in 1855 by a clerk, from the original copy held at the local Register Office. Also Mary Ann, the mother made her mark and so presumably couldn't read or write. Thus there was plenty of room for errors to creep in.
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Hang on. The 1849 marriage Mary Ann signed her name and said her father was Daniel Brant,
something doesn't add up.
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It would be worth checking with the local register office for the birth to see it they have Brant rather than Summer.
Jan ;)
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And she signed her name on her first marriage.
Mary Ann Brant m Richard Thomas Walter 9 Feb 1831 St George in the East
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Jaywit & all
Yep, something doesn't add up at all? The info I was given a while ago was that John Daniel Stephen Dobson (my Gt.Gt. Grandfather) married a Mary Ann Waller who names her father as Daniel Brant. The reason appeared to be (and feel free to correct it please!!!) that Mary Ann was a widow of a Richard Thomas Waller. I cannot find a Waller - Brant marriage? This Summer name now has me confused, but not for the first time with this branch!!
The only "facts" that ring true are John D S Dobson was a Gasfitter, as noted oh John Vorwerg Dobson birth certificate. Later John D S Dobson and family move from London to Liverpool, where John D S dies in 1863, assumed to have been some kind of work related accident as his now apparently twice widowed wife Mary Ann was in receipt of a pension from the Gas Company.
John V Dobson appears on the 1871 (aged16) census living with Mary Ann and two elder sisters in Liverpool. John Vorwerg Dobson disappears and a John William Dobson appears. John William Dobson marries Ellen Waters in 1878 and names John Dobson (Gasfitter) as his father. John Vorwerg appaers to have become John William around the time of the Franco-Prussian war, when there was a lot of anti-Germanic feelings growing, so he Anglicised his name.
It's a puzzle alright!
Cheers
Steve Dobson
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jaywit
Blimey you're quick. I was typing my last replay saying I couldn't find a Waller-Brant marriage and there you go and find it!
Thanks, but still a mystery where Summer came from I can't see someone's handwriting being that bad as Waller to be transcribed to Summer or could it?
Steve
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Jaywit
I'll have to start reading more slowly. Just noticed that it was a Richard Thomas WALTER not Waller, or is that a typo??
Steve
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No the record does say Walter, problem is I can't find either him or Mary Ann in 1841.
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Curiouser and curiouser!
Now I've got WALTER after thinking it was WALLER for a couple of years. SUMMER still can't get my head around that? As for John Vorwerg it only took me 27 years to tie him to John William as being one and the same person. Started this family tree malarkey in 1987 when my eldest was born and my Dad's family has been a nightmare, Mum's was easy her family are all from a little island in Shetland, called Fetlar.
Thanks for your help but I need a lie down now!
Cheers
Steve
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Just had a quick look on Free BMD and found a death of a Richard Thomas Walter in 1845 registered at St Saviour, Southwark I wonder? The Dobson family first appear south of the Thames in Rotherhithe, where John Daniel Stephen's Grandfather, Robert Dobson was a Brewer of Swan Lane.
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So, this woman married firstly in 1831, and had another child later in 1855 ? And the names seem to not match ?
Of course, it is not impossible for a woman to have another child 24 years after her marriage, but given the name confusion also, I'd be worried that these are two entirely different people.
It's also possible that Daniel Brant was her father, but if her parents were originally not married, her name as baptised might have been Summers, her mother's name.
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The original image of the 1831 marriage gives Richard Thomas' surname fairly clearly as WALLER, both where the vicar has written it and in Richard's signature.
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DaveKe
Mary Ann gives her age as 64 in the 1871 census, so she was 48 when she gave birth to her youngest (to the best of my knowledge) who was my Gt. Grandfather John Vorwerg Dobson, born 30/03/1855.
Name: Mary Ann Dobson
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1871
Gender: Female
Age: 64
Relationship to Head of Household: Self
Birthplace: London, Middlesex
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: West Derby
Sub-District: West Derby
Parish: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Household Gender Age Birthplace
Self Mary Ann Dobson F 64 London, Middlesex
Daughter Mary Ann Dobson F 20 London, Middlesex
Daughter Eliza Esther Dobson F 19 London, Middlesex
Son John V Dobson M 16 London, Middlesex
So yes she appears to have been a "old" mother especially in Victorian times. I've no idea if Mary Ann had any children with her first husband?
The only Mary Ann Brant I can find with a father Daniel (mother Mary) is born 17/12/1807 in Aldgate, London. This would tie in with the age of 64 given in the 1871 census.
Hopefully your beginning to feel my confusion!
Cheers
Steve
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Hi
Could this be the 1841 census? Richard Waller 35, Mary Waller 33 (depends which site you use whether surname is Walter or Waller) Address Little Alie Street, Whitechapel. Cannot make out Richard's occupation.
There is an age discrepancy with the age showing on her marriage to John Dobson where it is 36 but the above seems to tie up with her age given in 1871.
Cheers
William
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William
Not the first time I've come across a lady telling little white lies about her age, which is what I suspect the case is for her marriage to John Daniel Stepen Dobson ;D
Thanks for that census info, it's the right area and certainly looks like the right people.
Cheers
Steve
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On the Freebdm list which has Mary Ann Waller and John Daniel Stephen Dobson on it, also appears Geret Vonswam. Someone married the same day ? Not sure how that works.
Where does your funny german name Vorwerg come from ?
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Have you seen that there are two family trees at mundia dot com for Richard Thomas Waller who died in London in 1848 ?
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I think I would send for this birth cert. to see what the mother's maiden name was.
Eliza Esther Dobson birth registered Sep qtr 1852 Whitechapel RD ref 1c 352
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DaveKe
Sorry been offline since yesterday afternoon.
I've never heard of mundia.com? I'll have google it! Yes Vorwerg is a strange middle name but John Vorwerg (later William) Dobson was named after a George Frederick (or Georg Frederik) Vorwerg, a German who, in 1800 married the widowed Mary Dobson (her husband Robert, a Brewer of Swan Lane, Rotherhithe died in 1795).
Mary (maiden name unknown) had two sons by Robert, John Dobson born circa 1791 and Stephen Dobson born circa 1794. They must of been very fond of their Stepfather George Frederick Vorwerg. Stephen (my 3 x Gt. Grandfather) then named his eldest son Henry Vorwerg Dobson and his second son was my Gt.Gt. Grandfather John Daniel Stephen Dobson took the idea and named his son John Vorwerg Dobson.
I think that George Frederick Vorwerg, later remarried on the death of Mary and lived to a ripe old age, I've found a reference to him as leaving a painting to a local church in his will.
Clear as mud?
Cheers
Steve Dobson
P.S. Jaywit, I may have to buy more birth certs, good idea!
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It would be worth checking with the local register office for the birth to see it they have Brant rather than Summer.
Jan ;)
It would be worth doing the above before shelling out for more certs, as they may well check what they have for free - as Alpinecottage said there is plenty of room for errors when the information is sent to the GRO :D
Jan ;)
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jan
I'm not sure how I'd go about doing that? I'm up on the Wirral and I can't remember last time I was in London. Any idea where the registrars office is in Whitechapel? I have a friend who lives down there and could possibly go there for me?
Cheers
Steve
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The registers for Whitechapel are currently held by Tower Hamlets, contact details can be found here
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/regoff.html#246
A very useful page which I was unaware of till now :D
Jan ;)
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Jan
Thanks very much, I'll give it a coat of looking at!
Steve