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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: CJB123 on Sunday 18 May 14 13:38 BST (UK)
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Attempting to find correct details for Florence Beatrice St Clair. I have found that she was born in 1877 in St Kilda, according to her death certificate, and died in Ashfield Sydney 1958, her parents shown as James St Clair and Ellen Forgaty. Unable to trace Ellen Forgaty, and the available James St Clair's don't seem to fit in. Florence's 1st marriage of 4, took place in Sydney 1898. Wondering if she was connected to George St Clair and Ann Thompson, who arrived in Victoria in 1840, from Ireland. Would very much appreciate any light thrown on the matter,
Thank you, Trying ???
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One of Florence's marriage certs would be more reliable for parents' names; do you have any of those?
Debra :)
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Hmm, I don't see a 1898 marriage. I see some info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelma_Bate
But most records don't seem to include the name "Beatrice". Are these the four marriages?
1896 - Lawrence Anderson to Florence St Clair (registered twice? Sydney/Goulburn)
1899 - Olaf Olsen to Florence Andersen (Sydney)
(two daughters registered - both with mother simply Florence)
1912 - Carl G Sundstrom to Florence Olsen (Redfern)
1919 - Sydney H Sandry to Florence Sundstrom (Marrickville)
1958 - death of Florence Sandry (parents on the index are James and Ellen)
"St Clair" families are sometimes found under plain old "Sinclair".
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Unfortunately Florence's parents names don't appear on some of her marriage certificates. I have the information regarding Thelma. It seems strange that I can't find anything on her supposed mother, Ellen Forgaty. Have tried various versions, but nothing.
Thank you both for your interest.
Regards Trying
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Unfortunately Florence's parents names don't appear on some of her marriage certificates.
Are you referring to marriage certs from NSW BDM for marriages mid to late 19th Century? If so, then those elusive blanks are not brickwalls, rather they are simply hurdles. NSW BDM has not ever completed a task they commenced back in 1912, so there's many NSW BDM records of marriages that have blanks....
NSW BDM website acknowledges this : http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh/bdm_rec.html
"Some Registry marriage records from these years recorded only the details pertaining to the parties to the marriage. Details of the parents had been left blank although they appeared in the Church registers. These registrations were amended and a notation made in the margin to record the circumstances of the amendment.
The task of reconciling the Early Church Records and amending the marriage registrations was never finalised. The Registry's records from these years are not complete and it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate or in the case of a birth, a baptism record where there is no corresponding civil registration."
Here's a thread I did up quite some time ago to help overcome these hurdles.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=660501.0
Cheers, JM
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Attempting to find correct details for Florence Beatrice St Clair. I have found that she was born in 1877 in St Kilda, according to her death certificate, and died in Ashfield Sydney 1958, her parents shown as James St Clair and Ellen Forgaty.
Something is amiss somewhere….
NSW BDM online index has just the one ASHFIELD death registered in 1958 for a Florence Beatrice. It is referenced #1068 Florence Beatrice TREVILLION, with parents given names displayed as Thomas and Rebecca.
According to SR NSW, Archives Investigator Index, a Florence Breatrice TREVILLION’s DD was 31 Dec 1957, and probate was granted 20 March 1958. So that probate packet may well have information about Florence’s family, most likely also including a copy of the death cert, and perhaps marriage certs too.
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/
ADD
NSW BDM online index has a death registered at RYDE (ie not Ashfield) for a Florence SANDRY,(no middle name) for 1958. Her parents are displayed as James and Ellen (#30232)
Cheers, JM
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Hello JM, Florence's last marriage was to Sydney Sandry, and she died at Ashfield. That marriage certificate doesn't give any information either. The annoying thing is that I found a record of Florence's birth, in Melbourne, which showed her father as "John", but no mother. Unfortunately I never wrote down the cert. no. No way can I find it again!! Thank you, Trying
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Would you please type up the info as per the 1958 death registration .... You see, the online index clearly has RYDE as the registration place for Florence SANDRY, and that same index entry does NOT include a middle name.
The headings for that registration
Full name of the deceased,
sex and age at death,
date and place of death,
place of residence,
usual occupation
marital status at death
Place of marriage/s, (Each marriage should be listed separately, and the children of each marriage listed under their respective parent)
age/s when married,
full name of spouse/s
Children's name and ages
Parent's names and mother's maiden name
Cause of death and duration of last illness
Burial or cremation date and place
Funeral Director
Name of Informant, and relationship to deceased.
It is quite possible that there is information on the dc that is not as reliable as you would want. However, even if you suspect it is not correct info, often these 'flawed' pieces of info can help resolve some apparent brickwalls. :)
Cheers, JM
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I can find Florence SANDRY (without a middle name) on the Electoral Rolls to 1930 to 1954. Cannot find Florence Beatrice SANDRY....
Cheers, JM
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:) Just flagging
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JM might correct me on this, but in my opinion if her parents' names are not recorded on a 1919 marriage certificate then she didn't know who they were. If this is the case then her birth surname may not be ST CLAIR.
7819/1919
SANDRY, SYDNEY H
SUNDSTROM, FLORENCE
Registered at MARRICKVILLE
Debra :)
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Yes Dundee is right. The officiating clergy/registrar if at reg office needed to make enquiries and establish she was free to marry and record info on the register. I wonder though if our OP is looking at a PARTIAL rather a FULL trabscription. Bride needed to go through 'hoops' if she did not know her own nee name BUT 1919 .... If a widow remarries then proof of that earlier marriage and a death cert would suffice.
Cheers JM
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Probably worthwhile saying at this point that I, like others here I'm sure, have trawled the Victorian indexes and there is not a birth as described.
Nor is there anything resembling-
The annoying thing is that I found a record of Florence's birth, in Melbourne, which showed her father as "John", but no mother. Unfortunately I never wrote down the cert. no. No way can I find it again!! Thank you, Trying
Sue
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Unfortunately Florence's parents names don't appear on some of her marriage certificates.
Which marriage certs have you purchased?
Information on death certificates isn't reliable.
As mentioned by Sue, there is no birth registered for a Florence ST CLAIR in Victoria with the parents you name. I have trawled all theST CLAIR/SINCLAIR births in Victoria between 1857 and 1888 and none with the parents names you mention.
I have never seen a birth registration in Victoria with no mention of a mother. Sounds more like a death registration.
There are no ST CLAIR registrations ie birth or death with father John in Vic to 1888.
Cando
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Thank you one and all. I forgot to mention that when I found Florence's birth, it wasn't under St Clair, but something very much like it. I too have trawled through the Vic Pioneer Index disc but can't find anything, looking at all options. It's very fustrating not remembering!! Waiting on marriage certificate with Lawrence Anderson. Will post details if anything comes to light. I have thought that she may not be a St Clair, but some of the Melbourne family came to Sydney and seemed to live in the Ashfield area. Will keep living in hope.
Trying
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There is a tree on Ancestry with her birthday as being 8 March 1877 in Australia, but there is no information attached as to where this date comes from.
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Now I have received quite a few details, including 4 marriage certs for Florence. John St Clair, Horse Trader, Richmond, and Ellen Fogarty shown as parents. Florence was born Richmond, not St Kilda, according to the death cert. I'm still none the wiser as to the parents. The only ones who could fit in were only children in 1877.
The family story is that upon John St Clair's death, Ellen and Florence moved to Sydney and Ellen ran a boarding house for seamen. Florence's first 2 husbands were seamen. Lawrence Anderson and Olaf Olsen. Apparently when Olaf died, his friend, Carl Sundstrom, "looked" after the family, but as he was the manager of a firm the board weren't too keen on the arrangement, so they married in 1912, after a couple of children. She then married Sydney Sandry in 1919.
Can't find if Ellen ever remarried in Sydney, or where she died. Perhaps someone in the "Brains Trust" can come up with some ideas.
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I have found that she was born in 1877 in St Kilda, according to her death certificate, and died in Ashfield Sydney 1958, her parents shown as James St Clair and Ellen Forgaty. Unable to trace Ellen Forgaty,
I forgot to mention that when I found Florence's birth, it wasn't under St Clair, but something very much like it.
Now I have received quite a few details, including 4 marriage certs for Florence. John St Clair, Horse Trader, Richmond, and Ellen Fogarty shown as parents. Florence was born Richmond, not St Kilda, according to the death cert. I'm still none the wiser as to the parents.
The only registration that has the mother Ellen FOGARTY and father John around 1877. Bit of a leap from OCONNOR to ST CLAIR though ::)
OCONNOR Florence
Father John Mother Ellen FOGARTY
At Richmond 1878 Reg#47799
Cando
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Hi there,
I wonder if you could please type up the info that is on each of those four marriage certs you have received. Earlier I had asked about Florence's death cert.
Also, may I please ask which document/s gives you Florence with a middle name?
Now I have received quite a few details, including 4 marriage certs for Florence. John St Clair, Horse Trader, Richmond, and Ellen Fogarty shown as parents. Florence was born Richmond, not St Kilda, according to the death cert. I'm still none the wiser as to the parents.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
I can see a Florence OLSEN, domestic duties at 197 Harris St, ULTIMO on the 1903 Electoral Roll for West Sydney. NO ONE else with that surname at that address.
Do you have the dc for Olaf OLSEN?
Do you have any birth certs for children of Olaf and Florence OLSEN? Who was the informant, and what info did they provide about Florence?
Cheers, JM
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Hi
Divorce from Carl Sundstrom http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15701078?searchTerm=carl sundstrom&searchLimits=
Muss
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I well may have missed a beat here, but do we know what supposedly happened to Lawrence ANDERSON, the first husband?
I do not see a death or divorce in the name which could enable a marriage of Florence to OLSEN in 1899.
There is this ???
Reg 5769 Yr 1947 ANDERSON Florence Hannah
Parents John & Nellie
At North Sydney
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Lawrence Anderson was a Sea Master, on a merchant ship, "Oceana/Oceania Vance" at the time of the marriage. Florence was 18 and he was about 45, so I presume he sailed out of her life. Could have been lost at sea. Florence said she was a widow on her 2nd marriage cert - Olsen. There weren't any children. Will send all details of the 4 marriage certificates.
Thank you
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Are you saying Florence and Olaf OLSEN did not have children?
Cheers JM
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Lawrence Anderson and Florence didn't have children.
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Lawrence Anderson was a Sea Master, on a merchant ship, "Oceana/Oceania Vance" at the time of the marriage. Florence was 18 and he was about 45, so I presume he sailed out of her life. Could have been lost at sea. Florence said she was a widow on her 2nd marriage cert - Olsen. There weren't any children. Will send all details of the 4 marriage certificates.
Thank you
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0zf0/
October 1890 Lawrence Anderson in charge of schooner Oceana Vance
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0zf1/
March 1896 still in charge of schooner Oceana Vance
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0zf2/
Nov 1898 Oceana Vance from Port Macquarie to Sydney The captains name is hard to read may be not Anderson . Maybe Ank……
Can anyone else read the surname?
Sue
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/0zf4/
June 1902. Reference to L. Anderson, master of barque Lady Penrhyn departing Fremantle for East London carrying Jarrah.
Sue
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/0zf2/
Nov 1898 Oceana Vance from Port Macquarie to Sydney The captains name is hard to read may be not Anderson . Maybe Ank……
Can anyone else read the surname?
Geo ANKERS - MASTER:
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1898/11/072oce.htm
Other links to records for the Oceania Vance:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0zf5/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0zf6/
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May I please ask if you have the birth certs (or official transcriptions) for the children of Florence and Olaf OLSEN, and if so, what details were recorded on these re Florence? I would expect these to record the baby's:
:) Date and place of birth (if at home, the street address)
:) the baby's names (not their surname) and if present or not (so "present" indicating the baby was present when the birth was being registered)
:) Sex (Male or Female)
:) Father's name, occupation, age and birthplace (so first instance of a possible surname for the baby)
:) Date and place of marriage, and details of previous issue of the marriage (the full date, and the town, colony or state, nation etc. for the marriage and the full details for living issue recorded in chronological order by name (first name and then initials) and their then ages, then if any issue had already succumbed, their gender and number eg "2 males deceased")
Mother's name and maiden surname and age and birthplace (so if mother had been previously married, based on the info our OP has provided, this section should read "Florence Beatrice, formerly Anderson, nee St Clair" then her age and her place of birth ....
:) Then the informant's details (name, relationship to baby, and address) and the name of the midwife, and the details of the registrar/deputy registrar.
So if Florence was the informant, (and I would expect her to register the births, afterall her husband was apparently a mariner so likely often away at sea) then she ought to have provided FIRST HAND info as to her full name (including "Beatrice") and her maiden surname, and other details to help too.
I have not yet found any evidence of the ending of Florence's marriage to Lawrence prior to the index details of the Olaf OLSEN marriage, so may I please again ask for the details from the death registration for Florence.
Cheers, JM
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Probably more than one Florence OLSEN in Sydney in 1901 but here is a paid public notice.
SMH 22 Feb 1901 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14356287
PUBLIC NOTICE - If the man who is slandering me does not discontinue doing so I will take legal proceedings against him. FLORENCE OLSEN.
Cheers, JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15701078 SMH 9 Dec 1916
SUNDSTROM v SUNDSTROM.
Florence Sundstrom, formerly Olsen, asked for a decree against Carl Gustaf Sundstrom,for restitution of conjugal rights. The marriage was celebrated at Redfern in July,1912, according to the rites of the Methodist Church of Australasia. His Honor ordered respondent to return to the petitioner within 21 days of the service of the order. Mr.R W. Fraser represented the petitioner.
Perhaps I am being a tad pedantic, but I would have expected this law notice to show Florence’s middle name and her maiden name.
Carl Gustaf SUNDSTROM and Lewis James DAVIES were proprietors of a firm at 112 Hunter St, Sydney but perhaps that was in the 1920s ...... It was a Metal Polishing business, as per NSW SRO's indexes. :) http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-online
There is a public tree at ancestry which has one of the daughters of Florence and Olaf OLSEN marrying 26 March 1926 at Marrickville NSW, to a son of Lewis James DAVIES.... No supporting documents, so there's no validation available as the NSW BDM online index does NOT show a marriage DAVIES = OLSEN for any year 1900 to 1963
Cheers, JM
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I wonder if the following marriage has information provided by the bride about her mother ... Florence ......
NSW BDM Online index for 1926, registered Marrickville District, with Ref No. 1217 (so early in 1926)
TWO surnames indexed for the groom with Given name and initial as Edward T. The surnames indexed are DAVIS and HALLIDAY.
1930 Electoral roll has a Hilda Marguerite and and Edward Thomas at 3 John St Ashfield. The surname there is DAVIS (NOT Davies), and in 1958 they are still at John St, ASHFIELD, but at no. 11a. They were there in 1954 (at 11a).... and yes, Florence SANDRY was also at 11a in 1954. So that is DAVIS, not DAVIES and not HALLIDAY on the electoral rolls. :)
Cheers, JM
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Sydney Morning Herald 26 NOV 1996:
DAVIS Hilda Margurite age 96yrs d. 23 NOV 1996 late of Fairfield, formerly of Ettalong.
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An interesting index entry NSW BDM online births
Thelma V SUNDSTROM, daughter of Olaf and Florence, registered Sydney #19181 and same reference number for same parents names but as Thelma F OLSEN. Perhaps there has been an endorsement/alteration noted, on the original registration entry. If so, I would expect an official transcription would include the details in the notes, particularly if both surnames were listed on the original order.
If I may speculate, IF this is the same lass' birth (and I feel sure it is, same ref nos. etc) then it is likely showing Florence OLSEN changing Thelma's surname after Florence's next marriage in 1912 to SUNDSTROM, but of course the official details from that certificate would be needed to verify this speculative thought. There's a 1934 marriage registered in Sydney for Thelma, and it may well have information about Florence, perhaps giving permission for the bride (if not yet 21 years of age) to marry :) (NSW BDM #10174)
Cheers, JM
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http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/bate-thelma-florence-12184
Florence and Olaf OLSEN's daughter Thelma Florence :)
Yes, Thelma was once married to Jeff BATE who later married Zara HOLT, the then widow of Harold HOLT, a Prime Minister of Australia who disappeared in Dec 1967.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zara_Bate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Bate
Cheers, JM
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What interesting observations and research pieces in this thread ;D
Good also to see Trying back online. ;D
Will be great to see his/her thoughts on the findings and hopefully the promised additional information Maybe we can advance the search then.
Sue
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I agree Sue. :) very interesting :)
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It is certainly an interesting family tree, but my main interest is John St Clair and Ellen Fogarty. There is a John St Clair, horse breeder and grazier, in the Early Church Records Vic, Book 2 No 6 pg 169, No 26526. I can't seem to find those records online. On 2 of her marriage certificates Florence has Richmond as birthplace, and Melbourne on the 2 other. Thelma Sundstrom, was originally born Olsen, but went by the name of Sundstrom, and had 3 husbands. Her sister Hilda Marguerite Olsen, married Edward Thomas Davies/Davis, in 1926. Started off as Davies but changed along the way. Edward Thomas Davies father was Ernest Unk and mother Isabella Jane Davies, she then married Arthur Halliday in 1907. Do hope that makes sense. I do appreciate all your assistance, but Florence's parents are what I am most interested in. What happened to Ellen when she came to Sydney and "ran" her boarding house for seaman - did she remarry?
Thank you, Trying
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Hi there,
Would you please type up all the info from Florence's death cert, and from each of her four marriage certs. That way we can all help you to interpret that information, and perhaps advance your quest.
Cheers, JM
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I should also mention that jorose had already given the link for Thelma Bate :)
Hmm, I don't see a 1898 marriage. I see some info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelma_Bate
But most records don't seem to include the name "Beatrice". Are these the four marriages?
1896 - Lawrence Anderson to Florence St Clair (registered twice? Sydney/Goulburn)
1899 - Olaf Olsen to Florence Andersen (Sydney)
(two daughters registered - both with mother simply Florence)
1912 - Carl G Sundstrom to Florence Olsen (Redfern)
1919 - Sydney H Sandry to Florence Sundstrom (Marrickville)
1958 - death of Florence Sandry (parents on the index are James and Ellen)
"St Clair" families are sometimes found under plain old "Sinclair".
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Oh :(
I had been really hopeful that your next post, Trying, would be the one containing the useful information so we could keep working for you..
But..... :(
Sue
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I really do appreciate your interest but wonder what you need from all the certificates, seeing I have given all the relevant details, regarding place of birth, parents etc.
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Right, May I please ask for the info for Florence's first marriage, the one you have as 1898, but indexed for 1896.
You would be surprised at how even the smallest detail can help fresh eyes advance quests here at RChat. What you may consider to be of no significance, and not relevant may well be the clue needed by those fresh eyes.
Cheers, JM
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Perhaps you may prefer to share the documents via email to save you typing up? May I send you a PM with my email address?
Cheers, JM
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Thank you JM would appreciate pm
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I have sent you the PM with my email address.
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.....Wondering if she was connected to George St Clair and Ann Thompson.......
I can see only one John/James ST CLAIR in VIC who was the son of George and Ann nee THOMPSON.
John James STCLAIR born 1849 BROKEN RIV
This John married in Sydney in 1875 so unlikely to be the father of Florence.
Marriages in NSW for two other John ST CLAIRs (1882 & 1887). Perhaps Ellen and Florence went to NSW with one of them and then parted company.
Essie
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According to items in the Victorian Govt. Gazette, George ST CLAIR was appointed Chief Police Constable at the Broken River in November 1847.
Sue
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I am trying to find out if John St Clair is connected to George St Clair and Anne Thompson, Melbourne. Their son James John was married in Sydney and I think he can be ruled out. Some of George's children went to Sydney and I think that might be why Ellen went with Florence to NSW. Have checked out the Gundagai St Clair's and someone said that James St Clair had a cousin, George, in NSW, in 1850, but I wonder if it was George in Melbourne.
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Hi there,
I have not received anything at my email inbox.
Cheers, JM
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Re ST CLAIR and GUNDAGAI
NSW SRO has two deceased estate files, two chaps named James ST CLAIR both of Gundagai, both died 12 July, but ONE died 1880 and the other in 1881.
12 July 1880, duty paid 21 Aug 1888
12 July 1881, duty paid 11 Oct 1881.
It may be worthwhile checking those two files, to see if perhaps they are both for same chap and the 1888 file may well be an adjustment to the first file ….. perhaps an additional benefit came through that needed distribution. ADD, speculatively .... to whom ? Florence ?
I think the dc would be ref 7059, father as George (of 1880 !)
Cheers, JM (still no email in my inbox .... )
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Hi Everyone,
Our OP has kindly sent me the pdfs for the four marriages and the dc. They are issued by NSW BDM, in the 1970s and 1980s, apart from the Sandry marriage cert, which is the front page of the cert issued by the clergy (the reverse side has the details of the witnesses, and signatures but I do not have a copy of that side)
May I thank our OP for sending these through to me.
Here's my transcription of the first two marriages.
16 April 1896 at 57 Phillip St SYDNEY,
Lawrence ANDERSON, Master Mariner of the ship “Oceana Vance” a Bachelor, born Edinburgh, Scotland, and of 45 years, the son of Lawrence Anderson (deceased) and Elizabeth Williamson (deceased)
Married
Florence ST CLAIR, Gentlewoman of Surry Hills, a Spinster, born Melbourne, Victoria, and of 18 years, the daughter of John St. Clair (deceased) and Ellen Fogarty.
Ellen St. Clair giving consent to the marriage.
W T Adams, Officiating Minister, Methodist Episcopal Church rites
Witnesses: Ellen St. Clair and Maggie Colwell.
6 May 1899 at St Luke’s Church Sussex St, Sydney
Olaf OLSEN, a Seaman, of Gloucester St, Sydney, a Bachelor born Chrissund, Norway, and of 28 years, the son of Olaf Olsen and Johanna Olsen (JM notes her maiden name is shown as Olsen)
Married
Florence ANDERSON, (no occupation given), a Widow, born Melbourne, Victoria, and of 21 years, the daughter of John St. Clair and Ellen Fogarty.
Edward Heffernan, Officiating Minister, Church of England rites
Witnesses Henry St. Clair and Alice PLEYM.
So, clearly the same bride on each occasion. I notice:
1. John St CLAIR is noted as deceased in 1896, but not in 1899. Perhaps the ¸¸† mark next to his name was not recorded by the Rev Heffernan..... who it seems has NOT noted occupations for the fathers of either the bride or the groom (he was required to), so perhaps NSW BDM has not typed up ALL the available information that Rev Heffernan was required to lodge with them. Perhaps a current official transcription would provide further details regarding Florence's father.
2. Ellen St CLAIR is the name used by Florence's mum in 1896, so it is unlikely that Ellen re-married during Florence's childhood, and as Florence is noted as a Gentlewoman, it is likely that Ellen and Florence were both living at the same address that Florence has given when she married Lawrence ANDERSON in 1896. "Surry Hills" in that era starts down near Central Station, Forveaux St comes immediately to mind, but there were many others. May I suggest that there's two good online resources to help find boarding houses in Surry Hills in that decade ....
City of Sydney's website has recently uploaded the Sands Directories (the entire !) 1858-1933. Here's the thread with the link http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.msg5267800#msg5267800
and
City of Sydney's Assessment Books http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/assessment-books
3. Henry ST CLAIR was a witness to Florence's marriage in 1899 to Olaf OLSEN. So, the question becomes HOW is Henry related to Florence? Is he her brother, uncle, cousin, grandparent, or otherwise related to Florence.
4. Florence Beatrice ..... I may have missed it, but I cannot see any document with "Beatrice" mentioned at all.
I will print off a copy of each pdf and leave them beside my workdesk today, and allow the info in these documents to "sink in"....
Fingers crossed there's other RChatters with fresh eyes to help.
Oops, Forgot to mention, Captain L Anderson and Google sightings.... WATCH the dates ! ???
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14045396 SMH 14 April 1896.
Captain L Anderson of the Oceania Vance sailing for Honolulu via Newcastle.
The Hawaiian Gazette July 3, 1896. Page 5
Captain L Anderson of the Oceania Vane Asked for his regisation. New Master Arrived by the Alameda Yesterday and Will Assume Command Immediately.
There have been some very queer goings on aboard the American schooner Oceania Vance, which arrived recently from Newcastle, and the result of the whole matter is that Captain Anderson is now looking for a job on another vessel and Captain Dart, who arrived from San Francisco by the Alameda yesterday has been put in possession of all the ship’s papers and will assume control immediately. The primary cause for relieving Captain Anderson of command of the Oceania Vance was some trouble in regard to coal, and the secondary cause that he brought certain women to this port from Newcastle. Wilder & Co., who are agents for the schooner, have considered the matter well and are sure that the course they are pursuing is a good one ….”
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83025121/1896-07-03/ed-1/seq-5/
Also a pdf http://evols.library.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10524/2951/1896070301.pdf?sequence=1 (scroll to page 5)
Cheers, JM
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Mr Google to the fore ;D
http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC18960730.2.111# San Francisco Call, Vol 80, Number 60, 30 July 1896
The schooner Oceania Vance, now at Honolulu, has a new master. Captain Dart, late of the schooner Sparrow, went down to the islands to assume command, but had to carry the matter to the consular courts before he could oust Captain Anderson. The latter came back to San Francisco on the steamer Australia, but he has not so far gone near the owners. The agent of the vessel says that since the vessel sailed for Australia they have never heard from the master, and learned by the last steamer, from outside sources, that he had taken three women with him, as passengers, from Sydney to Honolulu. The managing owner would like to see Anderson.
May I please speculate that Florence was likely one of those three women…. Perhaps Ellen St Clair and Maggie Colwell may also have been on that voyage. :)
Cheers, JM
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Possible connection?
BDM NSW
3217/1894 SINCLAIR John H m. COLWELL Jane Coonabarabran
(Maggie COLWELL witness 1896 marriage)
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Well spotted Wivenhoe ;D brilliant .... I will type up the rest of the documents shortly :) but SINCLAIR is recorded on one instead of St Clair. :)
However, may I please sidetrack for a moment :) and speculate :)
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast
Auckland Star, Volume XXI, Issue 36, 13 February 1890, Page 4
The large Norwegian barque India, Captain L Anderson, which left here on January25th last (nineteen days ago) for New York with a cargo of kauri gum and dressed flex, put back into port this morning in distress and leaking, having lost her deck houses forward, two boats, etc, in a hurricane a few days ago off the coast, and also had her fore-hatch cover carried away, besides losing several sails. The extent of the damage to the cargo is as yet uncertain.
And
I also suspect that Captain L Anderson was an author…. See the adverts NZ Papers Past for UPTON & Co, 1893… for example New Zealand Herald, Volume XXX, Issue 9137, 2 March 1893, Page 8
6/- for A Cruise in an Opium Clipper and also 6/- for Among typhoons and Pirate Craft.
Cheers, JM (Auckland to New York under sail - a barque ! in Jan/Feb rainy season :) and Panama Canal not yet opened .... ::) )
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http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC18960730.2.111# San Francisco Call, Vol 80, Number 60, 30 July 1896
The schooner Oceania Vance, now at Honolulu, has a new master. Captain Dart, late of the schooner Sparrow, went down to the islands to assume command, but had to carry the matter to the consular courts before he could oust Captain Anderson. The latter came back to San Francisco on the steamer Australia, but he has not so far gone near the owners. The agent of the vessel says that since the vessel sailed for Australia they have never heard from the master, and learned by the last steamer, from outside sources, that he had taken three women with him, as passengers, from Sydney to Honolulu. The managing owner would like to see Anderson.
May I speculate that Florence was likely one of those three women…. Perhaps Ellen St Clair and Maggie Colwell may also have been on that voyage.
So perhaps Florence and Lawrence stayed a while in USA and perhaps Florence had a child there? I have not yet searched to find her return to Australia.... in time for her marriage to Olaf :) Or perhaps the marriage ceased in July 1896 in Hawaii and Florence returned to NSW directly when Captain L Anderson went on to San Fran on the "Australia" .... at least there's ship's names to seek out passenger lists....
Cheers, JM (Hawaii not a USA state until 1959)
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1958 #030232
(no. in local register, at Ryde 423)
Florence SANDRY
Female, 81 years,
Died 17th September 1958, at Hospital, Rydalmere
Usual residence 11a John St ASHFIELD
Born St Kilda, Victoria
Father: James St Clair, farmer
Mother Ellen Forgaty
THREE marriages listed
(1) Sydney NSW at 20 years of age to Alfred OLSEN
Hilda M, 57 years,
None deceased
(2) Sydney NSW at 25 years of age
Gustaf SUNDSTROM,
Five children, (JM is not listing them, male and female, except for the eldest, as JM has not established if any are no longer living)
Thelma F, 50 years
None deceased
(3) Marrickville NSW at 43 years of age
Sidney SANDRY
Widow (JM adds, meaning that Florence in 1958 was Sidney's widow)
No issue
Informant H Davis, daughter, 11a John St Ashfield.
Roman Catholic Cemetery, Rookwood, Leslie S Andrews, funeral director, Rev J Kelly, witnesses C A Borland and J Hughes.
This document is on the current form used by NSW BDM, and is a cert issued this year (2014)
May I suggest our OP considers obtaining official transcriptions rather than real deal certificates. The official transcriptions are a cheaper option, and arrive as email attachments, and are transcribed by experienced agents appointed by NSW BDM.
Here’s a thread…. . http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
ADD
Rookwood Cemetery Florence SANDRY, aged 81, Catholic Mortuary 2 & 3, Section 20 Row 28, Plot 2547,
Cheers, JM
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29 July 1912 (local register reference 296) Noting that outside the margin on the left is the NSW BDM details confirming that in July 1918 they received from the NSW Supreme Court this marriage was dissolved by divorce, and the notes that the wife was the petitioner
The marriage was At Redfern
Carl Gustaf SUNDSTROM, motor mechanic, of Kirkland (St/Rd, too dark to read clearly), Darlinghurst, Sydney a Bachelor born Stockholm, Sweden, aged 32, (parents details listed)
And
Florence OLSEN, Home Duties, of Shepherd St, Marrickville, Sydney a Widow, born Richmond Victoria, aged 34, daughter of John SINCLAIR (deceased) a Grazier and Ellen FOGARTY.
Witnesses Ernest GRAINGER and Agnes THOMAS
According to Methodist Rites, officiating Minister J Sweetman THOMAS
And
ADD:
26 July 1919
Sydney Herbert SANDRY, boiler makers assistant of 104 Cook’s Rd, Marrickville a bachelor, and Florence SUNDSTROM, domestic duties, of 104 Cook’s Road, Marrickville a Divorced Petitioner
Married by John BURGESS, Presbyterian Minister.
Sidney was aged 36, and Florence was 38. She was recorded as born Richmond, Victoria, with parents as John St CLAIR (deceased) Horse Breeder, and Ellen FOGARTY (by this era, the forms the clergy used clearly required the † to be used to show if the parent was known to be deceased).
This info is from the front page, the document is actually a double sided document, and there is significant info usually found on the reverse side. (Including of course the names of the witnesses and hopefully the exact location of the ceremony) I do not have an image of the reverse side.
Cheers, JM
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:) Florence in 1919 has given her father as a horse breeder, perhaps because her new husband has given his father (Thomas Stephen Sandry, deceased) as a Teamster.... She also gives her age as just two years older than Sydney, her new husband. :)
However, I cannot find any mention of a Beatrice.
Cheers, JM
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Rookwood Cemetery Florence SANDRY, aged 81, Catholic Mortuary 2 & 3, Section 20 Row 28, Plot 2547,
Cheers, JM
Photo of Headstone/Burial
http://www.heavenaddress.com/restingplace/catholicrookwood/florence-sandry/189436
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So no Beatrice mentioned on the headstone either....
Well, it is getting a tad chilly outside, so instead of a sandwich in the sunshine, I have had lunch with my family history resources ;D
Sands 1914 (so entry lodged by Oct 1913)
Henry St CLAIR, 281 Cleveland St, REDFERN.
Sands 1890 (so entries closed Oct 1889)
John St CLAIR, “Irenia”, Nicholson St, BURWOOD
Mrs St. CLAIR, 22 Moncur St, WOOLLAHRA
Sands Suburban 1892
BURWOOD
Nicholson St, south Side, from Wentworth to Burwood Road….
Four residences then Bold Street
George TARRANT, “Ellston”
John St CLAIR, “Irena”
and
WOOLLAHRA
Moncur Street West Side
22 Mrs St CLAIR. (from Wallis St, and two doors before John Street)
Cheers, JM
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Have just logged on and absolutely amazed at what has been found. Looks as though there is enough for a soap opera - thank you. Not sure if Henry is a brother, can't find his death, though there was a Henry St Clair and Beatrice Wall married 1907 in Sydney. No sign of Hy, a piano tuner, after 1963 electoral roll, and Beatrice died 1968. I am going to start again with the St Clair family, and hopefully things might seem clearer.
Many thanks, Trying
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Hi there,
I will type it up shortly, (see edit below) but here is a fresh transcription for the first marriage :) Yes, I am sure that Trying will confirm that my earlier transciption matches the record she holds for that marriage. No, I have no reason to doubt the official transcriber who prepared this fresh one.
YES, Florence's father has a different occupation on this one ::) Cab proprietor. Yes, the name of ANDERSON's ship has a likely spelling error.
ADD
16 April 1896 at 57 Phillip Street, Sydney NS Wales, according to Methodist Episcopal rites, BY w.t. adams
Lawrence ANDERSON, a Bachelor, born Edinburgh, Scotland, a Master Mariner, aged 45, usually residing on ship “Oceana Vauce”, with parents as Lawrence ANDERSON, (deceased) fisherman and Elizabeth WILLIAMSON (deceased)
Married
Florence ST CLAIR, a spinster, born Melbourne, Victoria, a Gentlewoman, aged 18, usually residing Surry Hills, with parents as John ST CLAIR (deceased) a cab proprietor and Ellen FOGARTY
With witnesses as Ellen ST CLAIR and Maggie COLWELL
Ellen St CLAIR, mother of the bride, gave consent to the marriage.
YES, I have seen this type of variation in information from NSW BDM on any number of occasions. The earlier one is a transcription too, the difference is that it was transcribed by the NSW BDM employee at that time (27th April 1984) ::) and "occupation of father" was not a heading on the then 1984 form ::) ::) ::) Shhhhhhhhh ::) and I am happy to repeat myself ..... in 1984 they were not including occupation of the fathers of the couple ..... yes, that's right NSW BDM has had different rules at different times.... ::) ::) ::)
EDIT, to highlight John ST CLAIR's occupation and to remove the image of the fresh transcription, in case it may infringe any copyright.
Cheers, JM
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You have not said where you are seeing the use of name Florence Beatrice???
Where Florence's four marriages might suggest some religious association, it is never Catholic........but she is buried in Catholic Cemetery.
And her mother Ellen FOGARTY has a family name often seen in Ireland.....and Catholic?
Might be worth seeing who is buried in same plot with Florence SANDRY?
Rookwood Catholic
SANDRY Florence 81yrs buried 18/09/1958 SEC*M2*20**2547
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Might be worth seeing who is buried in same plot with Florence SANDRY?
There is no other person buried in the same grave plot as Florence.
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Have just logged on and absolutely amazed at what has been found. Looks as though there is enough for a soap opera - thank you.
Many thanks, Trying
Hope you will not mind an observation here, Trying. ;D
Looking back on the thread it is noted there were very many requests that you please furnish specific information in order to advance the search by some of our highly resourced experts.
As you see, when finally you did communicate the relevant information in the form we requested, things moved on very well as you acknowledge in the above statement.
Now to my point ;D
On numerous occasions you have been asked
"Where did you see the second name BEATRICE for Florence?"
As I type it remains an unanswered query.
If you cannot remember or feel it was a mistake in your recollection, you simply need to say so. Such things happen often.
Hoping you will take this observation in the good spirit it is intended and possibly oblige with an answer ;D
Sue
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As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, there may well have been more than one Mrs St CLAIR in Ashfield
This link places one of the name helping at a refreshment stall at a hospital opening in 1894. Could it be Ellen?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13951838?searchTerm="mrs st clair's" sailor&searchLimits=l-textSearchScope=*ignore*%7C*ignore*|||l-word=*ignore*%7C*ignore*|||l-title=35
She is of Church Street
I note there is very little distance between Church St and John St Ashfield
By the way, use google to look at a street view of 11a John Street Ashfield. It is large and charming ;D
Sue
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On numerous occasions you have been asked
"Where did you see the second name BEATRICE for Florence?"
As I type it remains an unanswered query.
If you cannot remember or feel it was a mistake in your recollection, you simply need to say so. Such things happen often.
Hoping you will take this observation in the good spirit it is intended and possibly oblige with an answer ;D
Sue
Maybe from here :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelma_Bate
"Born Thelma Florence Olsen in Sydney, she was the daughter of Norwegian seaman Olaf Olsen and his wife Florence Beatrice, née St Clair, who was born in Melbourne. Her mother married Carl Gustav Sundstrom in 1912; Thelma attended Fort Street Girls' High School before graduating from the University of Sydney with a Bachelor of Arts in 1928. She subsequently taught at Meriden School and travelled abroad."
Raylen
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Hello Sue. I wasn't worried too much about the name Beatrice, it was always there, right or wrong. Thanks a lot.
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Have seen a photo of the John St house. I suppose Cab Driver is connected with horses. That seems to make more sense than a horse breeder, seeing Richmond would have been more urban than rural. I suppose the latter sounds a bit better. There were St Clair's, from the Gundagai St Clairs living in Ashfield. Ellen St Clair (I really got excited), wife of James St Clair, one time chief constable at Gudagai, died there. I am sure there is a connection with these families. You folk are amazing at what you come up with. I really am a novice!
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There were St Clair's, from the Gundagai St Clairs living in Ashfield. Ellen St Clair (I really got excited), wife of James St Clair, one time chief constable at Gudagai, died there.
WRONG.
Eliza, the widow of James gave evidence at his inquest at Gundagai.
The Gundagai Times . . . . Friday 16 July 1880
The death at Ashfield in 1887 was Eliza.
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I think it would be really useful to know that you have accounted for all children born to Florence
Repeating given records -
BDM NSW births
249/1900 OLSEN Hilda parents Olaf / Florence Sydney
19181/1904 OLSEN Thelma F parents Olaf / Florence Sydney
19181/1904 SUNDSTROM Thelma V parents Olaf / Florence Sydney
death
5931/1903 OLSEN Sylvia F parents Olof / Florence Sydney
Can anyone see a birth for............presumably this child of Florence?
On the death certificate 1958, informant H Davis knows herself to be a child of OLSEN marriage, and her sister Thelma to be child of SUNDSTROM.
marriage
1217 / 1926 DAVIS Edward T m. OLSEN Hilda M Marrickville
1217 / 1926 HALLIDAY Edward T m. OLSEN Hilda M Marrickville
Hilda Margurite DAVIS d 23 Nov 1996 96yrs SMH 26 Nov 1996 Fairfield formerly Ettalong.
The 1904 birth certificate for Thelma would give previous issue. If it includes Sylvia, then death certificate for Sylvia, with birthplace, might identify where Florence and Olaf were then.
Florence has husbands who are mariners. They often took wife to sea with them and it is possible there is a birth to find recorded outside NSW.
Can someone remind me please......what happened to Olaf OLSEN and this marriage?
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Hi there,
Overnight thoughts (from JM and my OH, and our Great Aunt who wishes me to commence to describe her as a Gentlewoman )
I suppose Cab Driver is connected with horses. That seems to make more sense than a horse breeder, seeing Richmond would have been more urban than rural. I suppose the latter sounds a bit better.
May I please note that there is a definite difference between being a CAB DRIVER and being a CAB PROPRIETOR. A Cab driver is employed by a Cab proprietor. A Cab proprietor may well be a cab driver, and an employer of other cab drivers. A Cab driver is not the way to describe someone who owns at least one Cab. To me, this is a significant difference, from a family history searching perspective.
From the 1896 mc we learn that Florence was 18. This marriage was 16 April 1896, BUT we can see mention of her husband’s ship leaving port several days earlier than that, to load up with Coal (from Newcastle) to take to Honolulu. (Note to JM ….. why was Coal being shipped to tropical Honolulu … must have been for a manufacturing process, as it would not be needed for domestic heating, or was Honolulu a transit port, and the coal was for an east coast USA port ??)
Anyways, if aged 18 on or before 16 April 1896, then when was she born? IF the information is accurate, then she was born no earlier than 17 April 1877 and no later than 16 April 1878. This is info that the clergyman recorded, and is based on info that the couple provided when being interviewed in the days BEFORE the ceremony. As Florence was not yet 21 years of age, she was legally an “infant” that is she had not yet reached her majority, so she was a minor, and on a legal point, her voice cannot be heard. (Remember, in NSW, civil registration of a Marriage is the registration of a Contract, so in that era, the NSW BDM was part of the Lands Department where Contracts/Deeds etc were registered !) So, Florence had not yet reached her majority so means that she cannot give consent to entering into the contract for her own marriage, and thus she needs someone to speak for her. In NSW at that time it should be the lawful father of the minor party (by the way, same rules applied if the groom was not yet 21 years). If the father was not available (deceased, out of the colony, or unknown, or otherwise not available) it would fall to the adult male head of the household ahead of the bride’s mother.
So, in 1896 we have an 18 year old Gentlewoman, (a half orphan) Florence ST CLAIR, living in Surry Hills, without an adult male head of the household, but obviously in contact with her own mum, Ellen ST CLAIR, nee Fogarty.
To be a Gentlewoman, and in 1896 to be the daughter of a deceased Cab Proprietor suggests there was some (substantial ? ) financial backing available. So there ought to be a PROBATED deceased estate, most likely either in Victoria or in NSW.
PS I will try to make time today to followup and confirm DD for the children of Florence. I have tried to concentrate on finding details of her parents. I agree, to me it seems very likely that Thelma's Dad was NOT Olaf OLSEN. To me, it was simply that at that time, a child's surname was NOT actually recorded on their birth registration. So, as Florence was Mrs OLSEN when Thelma was born, the index has both OLSEN and SUNDSTROM for Thelma's birth registration. YES, it would be sensible to seek out the official transcription of Thelma's birth ..... :) details of older siblings by NAME if living, and by gender if they had already succumbed. Perhaps "Beatrice" may be recorded somewheres on that record .... I have a family member whose middle name is in honour of the midwife .... perhaps Thelma Florence BATE's biographer knows where "Beatrice" originates....
Cheers, JM
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Sands 1892 Sydney TRADE and PROFESSIONAL directory
BOARDING HOUSES
There’s three pages under that heading. Here’s four that may be of interest….
Mrs CLEARY, 23 Regent St
Madame LAMOND, 213 Victoria St
Mrs Helena MOVIES, 23 Oatley Rd, Paddington
Mrs Ellen SIMMONS, 221 Cleveland St, REDFERN
No sighting of anyone with surname :
:o commencing with ST.
:o Sinclair or variations
:o Fogarty or variations
CAB PROPRIETORS are listed under Coach Carriages Cab & Buggy Proprietors, and yes several pages full.
Here’s ONE ….
:o Thomas ST JOHN, 9 Cooper St, Waterloo.
Again, none as Sinclair or variations and none as Fogarty or variations.
Sands 1895 (closing Oct 1894)
St. Clair and Folkes, basket manufacturers, 206 George St, Erskineville
St. Clair A., Whittaker’s estate, Prospect
St. Clair John, Nicholson st Burwood
St Clair R.T., Manager JT and J Toohey, Standard brewery, 300 Elizabeth St (this is the closest I can find “SURRY HILLS” the location and “ST CLAIR” the surname in that era !)
From 1903 NSW ER PARKES, polling at Ashfield
ST. CLAIR as surname
Estelle, 11 Church St, domestic duties
Mabel, 11 Church St, domestic duties
Mary, 11 Church St, domestic duties
Robert Thomas, Church St, brewery manager
Ruby, 11 Church St, domestic duties
I think this helps eliminate that Church St family :)
As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, there may well have been more than one Mrs St CLAIR in Ashfield
This link places one of the name helping at a refreshment stall at a hospital opening in 1894. Could it be Ellen?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13951838?
She is of Church Street
I note there is very little distance between Church St and John St Ashfield
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NSW ER 1903 PARKES, polling at Burwood
ST CLARE (none as St CLAIR, none as SINCLAIR)
Ethel Linda, Wentworth Road, dressmaker
Stella, Parramatta Road, domestic duties
Cheers, JM
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ST. CLAIR. - February 25 at Manly, Julia Elizabeth, the beloved wife of Robert Thomas St. Clair, of Clairleigh, Church street, Ashfield, aged 48 years, In the midst of life we are in death.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14108175 SMH 26 Feb 1897
NSW BDM #1803
Cheers, JM
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The marriage was At Redfern
Carl Gustaf SUNDSTROM, motor mechanic, of Kirkland (St/Rd, too dark to read clearly), Darlinghurst, Sydney a Bachelor born Stockholm, Sweden, aged 32, (parents details listed)
Hi,
Sorry to butt in, but if you are interested I can see if I can find Carl here in Sweden. If so I will need his parents' names.
Let me know either way.
Cheers.
Ian
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I wonder about this 1878 birth ….
Nellie Florence STCLAIR, mother as Lillie, registered Sydney #2959
Nellie …. A variation for Ellen
IAN, you are NOT butting in, you ARE most welcome to join in :) I will get back to his 1912 marriage cert "post haste" Back shortly
Cheers, JM
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Attached needs rotating
Will tidy up this post shortly
Carl Gustaf SUNDSTROM gave the following info about his parentage to the clergyman in 1912.
Carl was aged 32 as at 29 July 1912, and was born Stockholm, Sweden to Jack Carl SUNDSTROM (deceased) pilot (JM notes, another mariner)
And Charlotte Augusta CARLSON
Cheers, JM
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Repeating -
16 April 1896 at 57 Phillip St SYDNEY,
Florence ST CLAIR, Gentlewoman of Surry Hills, a Spinster, born Melbourne, Victoria, and of 18 years, the daughter of John St. Clair (deceased) and Ellen Fogarty.
Ellen St. Clair giving consent to the marriage.
W T Adams, Officiating Minister, Methodist Episcopal Church rites
Witnesses: Ellen St. Clair and Maggie Colwell.
Florence's mother is alive at 1896........is it possible that Ellen St Clair, witness, and giving consent, is not Florence's mother, but a St Clair relative....older sister, sister-in-law, aunt?
Which leaves the possibility that Florence's mother Ellen, has another surname ie married again after St Clair.....and not necessarily even living in Sydney?
Lodging house is also a description in Sands Directory.....several in Gloucester St, residence of Olaf OLSEN at marriage.
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Sands 1914 (so entry lodged by Oct 1913)
Henry St CLAIR, 281 Cleveland St, REDFERN.
Reply #60
Mrs Ellen SIMMONS, 221 Cleveland St, REDFERN
JM
The street numbers vary by just one digit
Is there possibly a misprint somewhere?
So that they are the same address? ???
Sue
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Yes Sue, it could well be. I will go back and check and get my local Gentlewoman to re-check ME.
:)
Any thoughts re the NSW 1878 birth for Nellie Florence ST CLAIR.
Also, I can see that Robert Thomas and Julia Elizabeth ST CLAIR lost a wee baby in 1877, Leone Beatrice ST CLAIR, aged two. ..... :(
Cheers, JM
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Yes, Wivenhoe, could well be a different Ellen ST CLAIR as witness to that marriage 1896...
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Infant death
1957/1878 SYDNEY
ST CLAIR Nellie F
mother LILLIE
-
Infant death
1957/1878 SYDNEY
ST CLAIR Nellie F
mother LILLIE
Thanks Essie. :(
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The Scrutineer and Berrima District Press 1 Nov 1913
Lift Fatality.
........The lift attendant Henry S CLAIR, 34 of 281 Cleveland St Redfern sustained slight injuries to his ribs and left leg....... (so he is b. ~ 1879)
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Well found Wivenhoe, so born circa 1879, so in 1896, he was NO YET OLD ENOUGH to give consent if Florence is a family member.
SO WHO WERE HIS PARENTS :) :) :)
Sands 1915 (so different from earlier source!)
Henry ST CLAIR, 281 Cleveland St, REDFERN
And NO entry for a Mrs Ellen SIMMONS
Sands 1892 Alpha (so different from earlier source)
Mrs Ellen SIMMONS, boarding house, 221 Cleveland St, REDFERN.
Sands 1909 Suburban
Cleveland St REDFERN
At 221 is a Frederick MAIDMENT
At 281 are Albert BUSHBY and Harold SMITH
Now errr WHO CAN find out IF Cleveland St REDFERN was renumbered between 1890 and 1915 …. I know that in about 1900, Cleveland St EVEN numbers was Sydney and ODD numbers was Redfern (and I suspect Darlington) and that the City of Sydney Council’s Boundaries were (still are) quite flexible.
Sands 1900 Suburban
221 Cleveland St (Redfern) Frederick MAIDMENT (it is between Walker St at 211 and Elizabeth st at 239)
281 is a George CHAPMAN (it is between Castlereagh and Pitt Streets)
Sands 1895
NO sighting for Mrs Ellen SIMMONS, but that’s the directory that has the John ST CLAIR at Burwood and the R T ST CLAIR as manager at Toohey’s Brewery. .
Cheers, JM
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Sands 1885
Mrs St CLAIR, 25 Little Macquarie St.
Now, that is most likely Surry Hills. Here’s a very different thread that includes a difficult conversation about that area in those decades http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=669368.0
Cheers, JM
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This to account for Henry S CLAIR b ~1879 and 281 Cleveland St?.
marriage
6968/1908 ST CLAIR Henry M m. WALL Beatrice V Sydney
death
4190 / 1964 ST CLAIR Henry Vincent 85yrs parents UNK / UNK Nth Ryde Sydney
12606 /1911 ST CLAIR Lionel C parents Henry V / Beatrice V Waterloo
6649 / 1942 ST CLAIR Eric Joseph parents Henry Vincent / Beatrice Violet Sydney
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Following from Wivenhoe
NSW ER 1913 REDFERN, polling at Redfern
ST CLAIR
Beatrice, 281 Cleveland St, domestic duties
Harry V, 281 Cleveland St, piano tuner
John, 281 Cleveland St, bootmaker
NSW residents needed to be at least 21 years of age and a British Subject to be eligible to enrol to vote, but it was not yet compulsory to enrol.
Cheers, JM
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The only registration that has the mother Ellen FOGARTY and father John around 1877. Bit of a leap from OCONNOR to ST CLAIR though ::)
OCONNOR Florence
Father John Mother Ellen FOGARTY
At Richmond 1878 Reg#47799
Perhaps Trying is not aware that Vic BDMs can be downloaded immediately via a plastic card, and that Vic certs are perhaps among the best detailed certs on the planet.... :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html (What to expect on Vic BDMs)
and
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseImage (Cando cites the reference no. needed :) )
Add ..... a Henry OCONNOR born 1879, Richmond Vic. Parents as John and Ellen (Fogarty) #11447
Add ...... a John OCONNOR born 1881, Richmond Vic, Parents as John and Ellen (Fogarty) #5061
Likely others too .... :)
Cheers, JM
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Sands 1885
Mrs St CLAIR, 25 Little Macquarie St.
JM's own resident Gentlewoman has skimmed over some excel spreadsheets for/of Cook Ward Assessment Books for City of Sydney, but alas has not found Mrs St Clair. (JM confirms they were for 1882 and 1891, only)
Here's an online link to Surry Hills map 1870 -1902 and some info that JMs Great Aunt has found.
Cook Ward….
1882 No 25 Little Macquarie is occupied by a John John LUXTON, owner/landlord is a Hazlett, who has three further homes (1 off, 2 off, and 3 off adjoining no. 25. No. 25 is rateable at £41 pa
1891 No. 25 is occupied by a Geo WILLIAMS, and owner/landlord is an S Swaddling £36 pa
Little Macquarie was next known as Alberta St, before it became Commonwealth Ave
Cook Ward includes Surry Hills.
http://www.photosau.com.au/cosmaps/maps/pdf/CBW/1870%20(20%20Apr)%20-%201902%20(19%20Aug).pdf
Cheers, JM and Gentlewoman ( :) )
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I am aware of the Vic BDM via online.
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Re : a Sydney boarding house for the widowed Ellen and Florence
Well .... 25 Little Macquarie St
Evening News 14 August 1895
25, Little Macquarie St, Chinese lodging house.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/109877910
Evening News 23 Nov 1889
A Parlor and Drawing room, balcony and Bedroom, bath, low rent, Hyde Park, 25, Little Macquarie St
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/117022176
Cheers, JM
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do we know what supposedly happened to Lawrence ANDERSON, the first husband? I do not see a death or divorce in the name which could enable a marriage of Florence to OLSEN in 1899.
and do you have Olaf OLSEN's dc? I wonder who was the informant? Perhaps Florence's Mum?
and do you have Hilda's birth cert? I wonder who was the informant or the midwife? Perhaps Florence's Mum.
And
I am aware of the Vic BDM via online.
Do you have any of those O'CONNOR birth certs? with mother as Ellen nee FOGARTY... These would give you info about that Ellen FOGARTY including her place of birth, her age, all of which may well be significant pieces of info to either confirm or eliminate that Ellen Fogarty from your St CLAIR quest.
Cheers, JM
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Lawrence Anderson was a Sea Master, on a merchant ship, "Oceana/Oceania Vance" at the time of the marriage. Florence was 18 and he was about 45, so I presume he sailed out of her life. Could have been lost at sea. Florence said she was a widow on her 2nd marriage cert - Olsen.
The second marriage was within seven years of the first marriage. Therefore, for the second marriage to proceed with Florence as a WIDOW, the clergyman needed confirmation of that widowhood. NSW divorce dates from 1873. The clergy had every reason to query her status as widow, afterall she was telling the clergyman that she's 21 years of age, quite young to be widowed. For the 7 year rule concept to apply, for the clergyman to record 'widow' without much investigation, Florence would have needed to have been widowed at age 13, (21 - 7) so married at say 12 or 13. Yes, the minimum age for a NSW bride at that time was 12, but she was married in Sydney at age 18, in 1896. The clergy from the various denominations were on talking terms with each other. :) Afterall they had just spent some four decades as a united front in a huge ongoing debate with the BDM Reg Gen's offices. (that's why there's those blanks on many 1856-1895 NSW marriage certs)
See this link http://www.aifs.org.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html re Colonial Divorces and 7 years explanations.
Add,
Well we have Ellen St Clair, mother of the bride giving consent to the 1896 marriage to ANDERSON, so it is possible that Ellen would know how/when/where/why for that Captain, and then there's the witness Henry St Clair on the second marriage. As witness he signs confirming that he knows the signature he is witnessing belongs to the person who is being married. I am assuming he is associated with Florence's ST CLAIR family. It seems unlikely that he was there as a witness for the OLSEN groom. I expect that Florence has signed as ANDERSON ..... :) But the record I have sighted is the 1980s NSW BDM typed up certificate rather than a digitised image ..... :) and there were some 'odd' transcriptions offered by NSW BDM during the 1980s.
Yes, our OP's main question relates to the Florence's parents details, and so perhaps we need to get Florence's details in proper order, so we can then advance the quest back to the earlier generations :)
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
Thank you majm....
Here is the family in 1890 in Nyköping. Carl's father was a river pilot.
If you want I can trace this family in the books here in Sweden.
Sundström, Gerdt Karl - born 1837 - Father
Karlsson, Augusta Charlotta - born 1855 - Mother
Karl Hilmer 1868
Karl Alfred 1870
Johanna Augusta 1877
Karl Anton 1879
Ida Augusta 1880
Karl Gustaf 1882
Karl Ernst 1885
Karl Axel 1886
Augusta Adéle 1888
Karl Ejnar 1889
Ian
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Thank you majm....
Here is the family in 1890 in Nyköping. Carl's father was a river pilot.
If you want I can trace this family in the books here in Sweden.
Thanks Ian for searching out that info. I hesitate to respond to your offer to trace this family using your local resources as I am not the OP, but I am sure that both our OP and the descendants of Florence’s children would be just as interested in their Swedish ancestors as in their Fogarty and St Clair ancestors.
Re Ellen Fogarty and John St Clair. Some thoughts .....
May I suggest that our OP considers spending some pennies. I am not one to regularly advocate purchasing actual real deal NSW BDM certificates, but on this occasion I do suggest this option. Particularly as the Vic BDM images may have an Ellen’s autograph on the birth registrations for a Florence, a Henry, a John. I am speculating that Mrs Ellen O’Connor and Mrs Ellen St Clair MAY be one and the same person. I am wondering if the Ellen St Clair signature on the 1896 NSW marriage cert may be compared with the signature of the informant registering the Vic births of Florence or her likely younger siblings.
Yes, the OP does already have the NSW BDM issued certificate for the 1896 marriage. BUT in 1984 the NSW BDM was issuing TYPED UP records, rather than actual images. They DO have the images, and have been issuing those historic images for quite a few years now.
Of course, I would also recommend that the OP FIRST sends an email to NSW BDM and ask them to expressly confirm that an order placed NOW to purchase a copy of the marriage certificate (#2224 of 1896) ANDERSON = ST CLAIR would give images of the actual register copy with SIGNATURES of the WITNESSES and specifically ask them to LOOK AT the particular register entry and CONFIRM that the entry giving witness names is NOT all in the same hand (ie not in the handwriting of the clergyman !)
Alternatively, as the ceremony was conducted at 57 Phillip St (Sydney) and was according to Methodist Episcopal rites, with Rev W T ADAMS, perhaps the OP may consider contacting the Uniting Church Archives and offer them a copy of that NSW BDM issued cert from 27 April 1984. They may know where the Church register is currently located, and how to gain access to it.
http://www.insights.nsw.uca.org.au/church/archives.htm
It is entirely possible that Mrs Ellen O’CONNOR nee FOGARTY at Richmond Vic in the late 1870s and into the early 1880s, mother of Florence, Henry, and others, was not Mrs Ellen ST CLAIR nee FOGARTY, mother of Florence born Richmond Vic 1877/8. But, it was not (and still is not) illegal to change your name so long as you are not setting out to deceive or otherwise avoid criminal charges. As a female, I changed my last name when I married, as that was the custom at the time. Ellen FOGARTY likely changed her last name to O’CONNOR when she married John O’Connor. Perhaps she later changed her surname to ST CLAIR. If so, then likely her children born to John O’Connor may have stayed with her, and became known by the surname ST CLAIR.
Hopefully obtaining some BDM certs with informant/witness signatures may advance the quest. As an aside, perhaps the Henry St Clair witness signature on the 1899 marriage may be matched to Henry St Clair’s signature on the 1908 marriage for a Henry M St Clair (to Beatrice V Wall)
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
I'll add the facts that according to the Swedish Books Carl became a sailor in 1898 and left for Sydney, Australia on the 7th June 1911.
Ian
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And he was a motor mechanic by July 1912 .... :) as per his marriage cert info :)
Cheers, JM
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Hi
Just for the record I have his birth record. He was born on the 4th August 1882 in Nyköpings Sankt Nicolai.
I have traced him and his family in the books. Just let me know if I can help out in any way.
Ian
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I am always amazed by the breadth and depth of resources available in R'chat.
Here we have, thanks to Ian, a whole side of the family history of Florence's children which our OP had not expected. Wonderful bonus!
As a point of interest regarding the O'CONNOR possibility raised first by Cando and expanded upon by JM, I have looked briefly through the indexes in Victoria for deaths of the children to John O'CONNOR and Ellen FOGARTY and have located none.
Frederick was the last birth in 1888 that I see.
EDIT Error
James was the last birth in 1884 (#5036)
Frederick was born in 1882 (#18501)
Sue
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Unfortunately matters have arisen and I will have to "pull the plug" on my family research for some time. Hopefully, when things settle down I can start again. I would like to thank you all so very much for the interesting information gathered, which I have made note of, and especially JM for the time and effort put in on my behalf. At least I know it won't go away, and will be there for me later on. Once again many thanks.
Trying
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Take Care,
Cheers JM
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I came across this thread when I was looking into John St Clair and Ellen Fogarty, parents of Florence St Clair. I noticed some gaps re the children of Florence and Carl G Sundstrom. Florence and Carl had five children - Thelma, Bertil, Elvira (my grandmother), Henry and Violet. Thelma did not have children but as far as I'm aware, all her siblings did. I also drew a blank when looking for more details about John and Ellen, as has another member of the Sundstrom family when she worked on this some years back.