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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: cathyo on Saturday 10 May 14 11:50 BST (UK)
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Hi,
This is my first post so I hope I am doing things right. :) I am very excited because I have just found confirmation from Papers Past NZ Herald 8 Aug 1900 that my grandfather and his sister (Adelaide) and brother (Henry) were committed to St Mary's Industrial School. Charles Stone (my grandfather) was very secretive and although we had heard that he was in an orphanage, this is the first confirmation.
Here are some questions:
We believe Adelaide, Charles and Henry Stone lived in Hawera as my grandfather said he was born there. The Herald just says Mr H W Brabant was the presiding magistrate at the police court yesterday. Would that have been in Ak? Would it be normal for children from Hawera to be sent to Auckland?
Can I view the records of the Industrial school anywhere - Sisters of Mercy, Auckland? I will ring on Monday.
If they were sentenced in August, why is there a record of Adelaide Stone passing the Std 1 exam at Hawera school in Oct 1900?
There is no record of Adelaide or Charles birth, but Henry was born in 1899 if I have the right Henry. Would a child of only 1 be sent to an industrial school?
There is a record of my presumed great grandfather Charles Henry Stone being taken to court for non-payment of support for his children so I think I have the right parents.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
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Hi Cathyo, and welcome to RootsChat and the New Zealand Board. ;D
Yes, there are records of children committed to the Industrial Schools, although earlier than 1900. I don't know if there are records for that period, but we can find out. I suspect that the records may be held at the Wellington office of Archives New Zealand.
The children were often boarded out to a guardian and attended schools even though still committed to an Industrial School.
By the way, you posted this topic on the Resources & Offers Board, an easy mistake to make.
I'll now move it to the main New Zealand Board while other members will see it and might be able to provide other information for you.
Spades
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Hi again,
This file might be what you're looking for:
Industrial Schools - Nominal Rolls 1900-1900
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=12026615
It is held at Wellington.
I'll add it to my lookup list.
I should add that these are rolls for all the Industrial Schools for that year so should include St Mary's.
Spades
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Great. Thanks for your speedy help. Are you saying that you will look up the file or that I can go to Wgtn to see it?
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Hi :)
I'll go in and take photos for you. ;)
Can you tell us the name of the mother of these children?
NZ BDM lists the births of two Charles STONE's, searched 1890-1910:
Reg. No: Surname: Given Name: Mother's Name: Father's Name:
1900/17390 Stone Charles Bernard Eleanor Blanche Charles
1898/17139 Stone Frank Charles Ella Mildred Charles Edward
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I can find no record of Charles and Adelaide's birth but a Clara (not known about) and Henry were born to Charles Henry Stone and Clara Wilson in 1897 and 1899 respectively. My grandfather Charles has a different birth date on his marriage and death certificates.
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For the information of others here is the link to the article in the New Zealand Herald referred to in the first post:
Neglected Children:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z6u/
Cathyo, The Herald was an Auckland-based newspaper. At this point in the investigation I think they appeared before an Auckland magistrate.
And, yes, children as young as one could be sent to an Industrial School. Some children spent all their formative years committed to such a School.
Spades
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Hi Cathyo,
Would you mind providing a complete transcription of both those certificates, please?
And how do you know about Clara STONE?
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I think I've found a record for Clara on the New Zealand Society of Genealogist's Kiwi Index. ;D
South Taranaki Birth Index.
Name: STONE Clara
Date: 4 Feb 1897
Place: Hawera
Reference: 1897H3/33
Status:
Parent: C H & C STONE
This supports your information that the parent's names might be Charles Henry and Clara STONE.
Spades
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z6v/
- in May 1900, a Charles Stone in Hawera, listed under "truant cases" - possibly a precursor to the August 1900 case?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z6w/
In 1907, a Charles (Chas) Stone charged with failure to comply with an order for maintenance of his children, made in 1900 in Auckland.
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BDM records
Clara Stone: 1897/931
Henry Stone: 1899/17373
I don't know about the New Zealand Society of Genealogist's Kiwi Index - not a member as yet.
Henry we do know about but we don't know about a Clara. But they obviously have the same parents. There is no death record for Clara Stone. I thought maybe the baby died before 1900 when the others were put in care. A Charles Henry died in New Plymouth hospital in 1921 having been living in Waitara (I have the death certificate) which fits the info I have from the census rolls about Charles Henry. There is no record of mother Clara Stone's death.
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There are 2 Charles Stones in Hawera - one is a farmer and the other is a painter and decorator. Charles Henry is the painter and seems to be the right one because he is often in trouble for illegal bookmaking, non-payment of maintenance, lives in boarding houses etc. I have all these newspaper records downloaded.
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Hi cathyo,
The New Zealand Society of Genealogist's (NZSG) Kiwi Index is a collection of information comprising members' submitted information over decades, certificates, name-list databases, etc. Invaluable to New Zealand genealogists.
I did a soundex search for STONE in the South Taranaki Birth Index but only found Clara. There was another family of the same name with several children but the parent's initials were different.
A transcription of those certificates you mentioned would be very helpful, as the information might provide some clues.
Spades
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Clara Stone birth
Born 4 Feb 1897
Name Clara Stone - not present
Father: Charles H Stone, painter, 44, Manchester England
Married 22 Oct 1882 Timaru (can find no record of this)
Mother Clara Stone, formerly Wilson, 36, Ballycastle, Ireland
Registered: difficult to read - N?? Kilo?gton, Hawera
When registered: 18 Mar 1897
Charles Henry Stone death
25 July 1921 New Plymouth Hospital
Charles Henry Stone, painter
Age: 70
Cause: Fibro myocarditis 10 years; Pulmonary hypostasis 10 days
Buried 28 July 1921 Waitara
Minister G H Gavin? C of E
Born: Dover, Kent England - note not the same as on Clara's birth certificate
Years in NZ: 34 - so arrived about 1887, but supposedly married in Timaru in 1882
Parents: unknown
Marriage: unknown
Informant: undertaker at Waitara
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My great grandfather and two of his brothers were sent to the Nelson equivalent. I tried contacting local historical societies who maintain their records plus the Catholic Church, the Wellington court for any records of the case and everyone inbetween but the only info forthcoming is meant to be in the Wellington archives.
They were taken from their mother for a similar "offence" and they never saw her again
Sadly for us their births were never registered and thier parents names also a great uncertainty.
It is fantastic your ancestors are well documented.
Good luck!
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Hi Cathyo,
I ran out of time to do your lookup request but aim to go back for it on Thursday, all going well.
But looking over the transcriptions you provided above, I noted that the ages for Charles Henry STONE's in 1897 and in 1921 are inconsistent: If he was 44 ( e.g. born about 1853) in 1897 he should have been 68 in July 1921.
Assuming that he was truthful about his age in 1897, might this be his UK birth record, sourced from FreeBMD? http://www.freebmd.org.uk/
Births Mar 1853
STONE Charles Henry Ecclesall 9c 208
Spades
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Oh, and I forgot some links providing information about the Industrial Schools:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/NewZealandIndustrialSchools.htm
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Stout83-t12-body-d1-d13.html
http://genealogy-new-zealand.blogspot.co.nz/2010/11/warrants-industrial-schools-act.html
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-NHSJ05_05-t1-body1-d4.html
From my reading it does not appear that there was an Industrial School in the Taranaki region.
But the fourth link above discusses a boys orphanage located at Stoke in Nelson which was a branch of St Mary's Industrial School.
Spades
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Hi Cathyo,
Charles, Henry and Adelaide STONE appear in both the 1900 and 1901 Rolls for St Mary's Industrial School.
The 1900 entries provide their dates of birth.
If you can PM me with your email address I'll send the images.
Spades
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Here is a bit on the history of St Mary's
http://www.theprow.org.nz/society/nelson-orphanages/
http://www.theprow.org.nz/places/st-marys-boys-cemetery/
Cheers Janette
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Images sent.
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Hi-
I stumbled across this site and subsequent posts while trying to find more information regarding two uncles (both now deceased) who had been sent off to St Joseph’s Industrial School/Orphanage in Takapuna, sometime between 1939 and 1946.
After reading the post, it seems like the user Spades, could be the like almighty ‘Oracle’ (all knowing). You seem to be super helpful and very knowledgeable in this forum. So I’m really hoping you are still active in here and may be able to help me find some answers or information on my uncles.
I realize this may be a shot in the dark, but you have to start somewhere, right?
The information I have, sadly is not much, but I will share what I know.
My two uncles, Johnny and Georgie Ryan were approached by one of the priests from St Joseph’s in Takapuna and as my nana had 6 other kids to care for asked if she would like for them to attend the orphanage to lessen her load.
I’m not sure what year that was but I am guessing somewhere between 1939 and 1945.
St Joseph’s School have not been very helpful, telling me they don’t have records any earlier that the late 1940’s.
The only other information I have to share are their full names and date of birth, and of course parent names and addresses during that time.
Edward George Ryan- (Georgie)
1935–1999
Leonard John RYAN (Johnny)
1933–1981 - I think
Not much I know,
If there is more information you need from me, please let me know and I will see what I can find out.
Thanks
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Hi Annekenz,
Thank you for the compliments but unfortunately my purported powers have gone for a walk, it seems. I can't find any records pertaining to St Joseph's at Archives NZ except for five general files dating to the 1990's.
https://www.archives.govt.nz/
What else can we try?
I suggest you contact the North Shore branch of the New Zealand Genealogists Society.
https://genealogy.org.nz/Branch-details/11084-s1100056/
And any local family history organization in Takapuna if there is one.
Does anyone else have any ideas?
Spades
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there is this but 70 year embargo - so no good until 2033
https://collections.archives.govt.nz/web/arena/search#/entity/aims-archive/R19241517/children-homes----takapuna---st-josephs-children-home?q=st+josephs+takapuna&source=aims-archive
there are a number of records for Takapuna St Josephs Roman Catholic School in the relevant years. One would assume they probably attended that school?
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Hi Mckha,
Researchers are ably to apply for access though.
Worth a try, I feel.
Annekenz, if you wish I can apply for the file above to see if the two individuals are mentioned. If so I can then hopefully view that part of the file.
Would you like me to do that?
Spades
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Does anyone else have any ideas?
Spades
The boys when it was time to leave, St Joseph's,usually went to Rosmini College (Catholic) to finish their schooling. I am not saying that is where the two Uncles went, but my knowledge of being an old North Shorian.
Cheers
KHP
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Wow!
You guys are fantastic! Truly, I am really blown away by the team effort and willingness to assist me with this.
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Hi Spades!
I would absolutely love for you to see if you could access the files to see if my uncles are mentioned, would that be too much trouble?
If I can assist in anyway, just say the word!
Again, I want to really say thanks to everyone who has chimed in and offered guidance and ideas.
I am a proud Kiwi, that unfortunately lives in the USA now, but I’m back in the land of the long white cloud right now for a holiday and it’s so refreshing to be around like minded people, whether it be in real life or online.
There truly is something special to be said about us Kiwis, we are great people, with a willingness to want help others. We are genuine and kind people with big hearts.
*anneke wipes away a tear as she types*
Hehehe kidding- kind of.
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Hi Annekenz,
I agree with you, Kiwi's are special. :) I have just submitted a request to the Ministry of Social Development requesting permission to view the file.
They may take some time to respond but I'll let you know when they do.
Enjoy your holiday.
Regards,
Spades
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Hi Annekenz,
Still no reply I'm sorry to say. We'll have to be patient.
Spades