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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: Janice M on Friday 09 May 14 04:05 BST (UK)
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Need some help with this one.
Other queries that I have made that may save extra work on this one are:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=480987.msg3397997#msg3397997
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=171138.msg811156#msg811156
This one turned out not to be from my line -
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=288005.msg1712493#msg1712493
I have now found that Henry and Lilly (Lillian - Lillias) McKinley had at least 3 children -
William born approximately 1889 in Glasgow, Scotland
Jean born 1891 in Glasgow (immigrated to Owen Sound, Ontario) (I have lots of information on her and am currently in contact with her family.)
John born approximately 1893 in Glasgow, Scotland (he immigrated to Owen Sound in 1919 and lived for a short time at least with his sister Jean and her husband Harry Alderton. John's wife Annabella Campbell Wilson and son Andrew Wilson Johnston were not with him.)
I have no idea if John's wife and son came to Canada, or if John went back to Scotland. I have tried finding a death for any of them in Scotland, but have been unable to.
I have also not been able to find anything else on William Johnston, or the father Henry.
I am assuming that they could have ventured further west, or even to the U.S., but nothing yet. Henry's family members that I have been in touch with have no knowledge about them either.
Also, to add an even deeper mystery, Lilly and Samuel Grimason had a son born in 1908 in Toronto, that they also named John. I have nothing for him either after his birth.
None of them immigrated to Canada at the same time. (Jean and Lilly (1905) Henry (1908) and John (1919) (William ? not sure if he did)
Henry lived in Haliburton area with neice Mary Toye and her husband John Michael Rivers.
Jean and Harry Alderton lived in Owen Sound, Ontario
Lilly and Samuel Grimason lived in Toronto, Ontario, then Regina, Saskatchewan, then Winnipeg, Manitoba, and finally British Columbia where they died.
If anyone can help in any way, I would greatly appreciate it.
Janice
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Janice, there is a death for Andrew Wilson Johnston who was born 12 Apr 1917 in the FreeBMD. He died in Feb 1994 in Crawley, West Sussex (Register No. B37A, District and Subdistrict 7801B, Entry No. 98). ScotlandsPeople has a marriage for Andrew Wilson Johnston to Jenny Adie F. Kier in Cathcart in 1941. There is a death that was registered in Feb 1992 in Horsham, Sussex for Jenny Adie Johnston who was born 11 Jul 1916 (vol. 18, page 2248). There is also a death registered in Sutton, Greater London in May 1975 for Annabella Campbell Johnston who was born 7 Feb 1891 (vol 15, page 0770).
I've also sent you a PM about the second border crossing attempt by Lily and Samuel.
Jacquie
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As well, I noticed in one of your other threads you mention you can't find Henry in 1901. If that's still the case, it appears he and the children were living with his mother at 281 Dalmarnock Road in Bridgeton, Glasgow. At Ancestry the transcription has him listed as Henry Johnstone. It looks like two of his sisters were also there - Mrs. Stewart with two children and Martha Cunningham with her husband.
Jacquie
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Thank you for the information Jacquie.
I will now have to find out more about the "England" connection.
I love this one, as there are so many twists and turns. It keeps me addicted.
Janice
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I found a death for John McKinlay Johnston in Scotland. He died 18 Jan 1931 in Dennistoun, Glasgow. Annabella was the informant. If you PM me your email address I can send the registration to you.
It's strange. I searched for him at SP when I first read your thread and couldn't find him but this time I found him right away and I'm sure I used the same search terms.
Jacquie
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Hi Jacquie
Thank you. I have sent you a personal message.
Janice
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Do you have the border crossing documents for Henry going to Buffalo that are dated 18 May 1915? It says he was going to seek work. He named his brother-in-law James Toy(e) as his nearest relative in Canada.
Jacquie
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Hi Jacquie
I do have that, as well as the 1917 crossing, where he lists Lily as his wife, even though she is with Samuel Grimason.
I have nothing after that, with the exception of John's death (1931) that you sent me. It shows Henry is deceased.
Janice
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Hi Janice,
Re John McKinley Johnston who died 18 Jan 1931 aged 40 years giving a birth year of 1891 with the mother of Liliy McKinley.
I suspect that the age given is incorrect as I have a birth for;
John McKinley Grimason born 30 Aug 1908 at York, Toronto, Canada, I suspect this is the same person.
The only way I know of to confirm what I suspect is to DNA test any male descendant of John McKinley Johnston against any other known Johnston Male relative.
The other thing to look at is to see if there is indeed a John McKinley Johnston born in 1891 based on the supposed age at death.
Also any will that may have been probated, unfortunately these are not yet online if there is one.
The other thing to look for is his marriage as that may paint another story, it would appear that he did not marry in Scotland under John McKinley Johnston and the same goes for Canada.
Based on his Death Certificate it would appear that he married Annabella Campbell WILSON.
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Thank you Grimason. I did find a birth for both of the Johns as well as the death and marriage of John McKinlay Johnston in Scotland. I also found him in the 1901 Census in Glasgow, living with his father, grandmother, sister Jean, brother William, as well as his aunt and cousins.
I can find nothing more on John Grimason, except his birth in Toronto in 1908. I have found no marriage, nor death. What makes me very curious, is the fact that his mother Lillian and father Samuel attempted to cross the border into the U.S., but he was no where to be found. Also, in 1921, Lillian and Samuel are living in Manitoba, without John. He just seems to vanish, unless of course he was adopted out, or possibly living with relatives, but can't find him anywhere.
Are you by any chance related to this line? If you are, I would love to share information.
Janice
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Hi Janice,
I guess I am related to that branch due to the fact that the GRIMASON surname and variations of that spelling of the surname are pretty rare.
As for being directly related not that I am aware of.
I have a sneaking feeling that you and I have been in contact with each other before, I also go by Sherlock Holmes.
As you say post the Birth of John McKinley GRIMASON in 1908 no sign of him can be found currently.
Also if by 1917 when Samuel and Lilly tried crossing the Boarder at Buffalo Crossing if John McKinley GRIMASON was still alive he would have been 9 years old.
Samuel GRIMASON did not as far as I am aware have any close kin in Canada even though there was at least three other different branches of the Family living there.
The GRIMASON branches that I know of that were living in Canada at the time would have been the;
DEACON Branch ex Ireland arrived in Canada about 1850
GRAY Branch ex Ireland arrived in Canada about 1850
McLEAN Branch ex USA Ex Ireland arrived in Canada about 1870
There was another branch as well however that Branch had disappeared from Canada by the 1870's that I am aware of, that being the McShin Branch, which had arrived in Canada about 1840.
The DEACON, GRAY and MCLEAN branches all lived in the Ontario area of Canada of these three branches only the DEACON and GRAY line are present now days however in USA, once the current generation of the DEACON branch marry then that is the end of that Branch as far as i have been able to research.
Your Samuel GRIMASON is of the Camillerie branch currently until I manage to get that line further back in time if that is possible.
I happen to come from the BERRY branch and I suspect that I have direct relations in USA, the only way I know of to prove or disprove this is getting them to take a DNA test.
This not being able to prove by way of paper work all comes about due to the Marriage certificates not showing who the Mother was on the marriage certificates of England, Wales and Ireland.
What can cause confusion is the fact that some of the GRIMASON family adopted the GRIMSHAW surname as well, my own sub branch is a case in point.
John GRIMASON = Ann BERRY
They had issue;
Henry GRIMASON, Baptized: 1842 research on going, suspect died young however no proof.
Robert Henry GRIMASON, Baptized:1846 came to New Zealand and adopted the GRIMSHAW surname, my sub branch.
Francis GRIMASON, Baptized:1851 adopted the GRIMSHAW surname remained in Ireland some descendants in England, France and USA.
Joseph GRIMASON, Baptized:1852 suspect that descendants live in USA no adoption of the GRIMSHAW surname.
Edward GRIMASON, Baptized: 1854 research on going otherwise not known
Elizabeth GRIMASON, Baptized: 1856 research on going, suspect may have died young no marriage found that fits.
Thomas George GRIMASON, Baptized:1858 kept surname, did marry, no known descendants.
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Thank you again. I do believe we have been in touch before.
My line is related to Lillian's first husband, but I am in contact with Lillian's family, who are always interested in new information. We are also trying to find answers to some of the mysteries surrounding Samuel and Lillian, and the fact that they have used alias' before. A few of the alias' that Lillian and Samuel used, were the names of Johnston, and Jones. The use of other names came to light, when Samuel and Lillian were stopped from entering the U.S, apparently because of "criminal and immoral" purposes. Of course back then that could have been said because they were not married at the time.
It would not be surprising to me to find out that young John Grimason could have been given a different last name, or that one of the alias' that was used by his parents, or possibly be his "adopted" name. They did have a son who was born in 1907 by the name of Samuel that passed away at the age of 3 weeks, so I guess it is also possible that John could have been removed from their home and put into the custody of family services, if it was felt they couldn't care for him.
As late as 1917, Lillian's first husband (my relative Henry Johnston on his re-entry in Canada) lists her as his wife and supposedly living at the same address as he is, even though she has been with Samuel at least since 1906, and possibly much sooner, and I know she wasn't with Henry in 1901, as he is listed in the census in Scotland his children, mother, sisters, brother-in-law and nephews. I have never been able to locate Lillian or Samuel anywhere in the 1901 Census. (England, Scotland, Canada & U.S.)
So many mysteries and it would seem; very few answers.
Janice
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Hi Janice,
The more one looks at Samuel GRIMASON aka JONES and Lilly Johnston formally McKinley and there attempted Border crossing at Buffalo, New York, USA on the 27 Oct 1910 the more I am inclined to think that John McKinley GRIMASON may have been adopted out.
They were turned back at the border due to being an unmarried couple and I suspect that John McKinley GRIMASON may have been adopted out due to the fact that he was born out of Wedlock and his father was also in a bigamous relationship this situation was to stay the same until the 2nd Quarter of 1942 as this appears to be when Nellie aka Ellen GRIMASON formally HIGHFIELD died, will need to get a death certificate to confirm what I suspect age fits nicely though.
So that means Samuel could not legally marry until at lest July 1942.
It appears that apart from the 1881 Census of England his family is no where to be found at the next Census of 1891 in England which suggests that they may have been in Ireland, this we will never know due to that census having been destroyed.
I do know that he married Nellie ( Ellen ) HIGHFIELD on the 15 Aug 1898 at Landhed, Chester, England and they did have issue; William John GRIMASON born 1899 at Lambeth, Surrey, England and then Theresa GRIMASON in 1900 at Lambeth, Surrey, England.
In the 1911 Census of England Nellie aka Ellen GRIMASON is now living with her parents with her two children.
The next time he shows up is on 21 Apr 1905 as a passenger under the surname of Jones aboard the "Tunisian" at Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada.
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Wow! Thank you. I do believe that you are indeed Sherlock Holmes (lol).
Funny enough, one of my lines is Baskerville.
I'm still confused about the use of different names though.
These are the mysteries that we love, but drive us crazy.
Janice
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Hi Janice,
So we have two individuals Named John McKinley ......
1. John McKinley JOHNSTON born about 1893 in Glasgow, Scotland
2. John McKinley GRIMASON born 1908 in Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Both have the same mother.
So far you have managed to trace John McKinley JOHNSTON to his death.
Unfortunately John McKinley GRIMASON appears to vanish post his birth and that includes no death either which could imply that he was indeed adopted out.
Being able to prove this theory about a possible adoption is another story and being able to find any record of this may be impossible.
I note that Samuel GRIMASON and Lilly JOHNSTON formally McKINLEY do not show up in the 1911 Canadian Census so I wonder were they where at that time, this would have been close on a year after their attempted and aborted border crossing into USA at Buffalo Creek, New York.
They can be found in the 1916 Census and also the 1921 Census.
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Thank you Sherlock.
This has definitely been my greatest challenge so far. (But I do love the challenge.)
As you said, finding an adoption would be next to impossible, unless of course, his family, if there are any, might be searching too. One could always hope.
Maybe this New Year will bring new answers.
Janice
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Hi Janice,
As you said in an earlier post "Lilly and Samuel Grimason lived in Toronto, Ontario, then Regina, Saskatchewan, then Winnipeg, Manitoba, and finally British Columbia where they died."
What we do know is that;
In 1908 John McKinley GRIMASON was born in York, Ontario.
In November 1910 Samuel and Lilly try to cross the Border at Buffalo Creek, New York, USA.
In 1916 Samuel and Lilly were now living in Saskatchewan.
In 1921 Samuel and Lilly were now living in Winnipeg, Manitoba.
In 1958 Samuel died in Vernon, British Columbia.
In 1961 Lilly Died in Vernon, British Columbia.
On the basis that we have found no death for John McKinley GRIMASON prior to or even after 1910 one would expect that John McKinley GRIMASON would have eventually gone to school, as to under what name is a mute point.
With us not being able to find a record for John McKinley GRIMASON so far this would imply adoption and since Samuel GRIMASON did not have any close kin in Canada we then need to look at Lily's side of the family, maybe they took on John McKinley GRIMASON and renamed him to protect him once he went to school.
Clearly by the time that Samuel and Lilly tried crossing the border at Buffalo creek, New York, USA in November 1910 something had happened to John McKinley GRIMASON.
Not finding a death record does not rule out that fact that he may have died as this may have happened in another state other than Ontario.
Case in point is the Death of (Doctor) Alexander Mearns GRIMASON and his son John Menzies GRIMASON in 1905 in Swift Creek, Saskatchewan, Canada.
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Thank you Sherlock
I will try searching Lillian's family. Possibly the brother that she was going to visit in the U.S. or maybe her sisters Jane and/or Sarah. It's worth a try.
Janice