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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: smackie on Tuesday 06 May 14 13:28 BST (UK)
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My grandmother was a british home child who came to nova scotia in 1905. I am looking for her sister Florence Violet Turner who stayed in Aston England. She will be gone but am looking for her husbands name and to contact her children. Florence was born abt. 1894 Her mother was Selina and father was Samuel turner. My grandmother was Ada Lavinia Turner. Any ideas?
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There are a couple of marriage options in the September quarter of 1911 - unfortunately this is after the 1911 census.
Candidates for a Sept quarter marriage in Aston, Birmingham are Herbert W Winter and Arthur H Lucas.
A search of births with Lucas and MMN Turner brings up Florence L in 1912 & Joseph H 1913 & Frank E 1915 both in West Bromwich.
Possible death for a Florence V Lucas in Birmingham in 1967 aged 74 - vol 9c page 88.
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Hi
Just to add Arthur Harry Lucas was born 19.7.1892 s of Arthur James and Lucy Lucas.He was a gun finisher.He died Sep 1954 at Birmingham age 62.
On the Electoral registers they remain at Shaw Hill Grove Erdington 1925-45.
There is a family tree on Ancestry -Tierny Family Tree for Arthur H Lucas,no mention of florence but they may know more.
Ciderdrinker
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This is probably Florence's birth info (there's also one born in Aston in 1899 too)
Births Sep 1893
Turner Florence Violet Aston 6d 405
This one fits in with the 74 year old death in 1967 that miriamkinga found on reply #2
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Does any one have any clue as to where Florence's father Samuel Turner disappeared to? I found him in about four court records on ancestry.
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Does any one have any clue as to where Florence's father Samuel Turner disappeared to?
I found him in about four court records on ancestry.
What are the dates & reason given for the four court records?
Do you have him on any early census records?
I see from Ada & Florence's baptism both on the same day in 1895
Samuel's occupation is a Hawker same on his 1892 marriage to Selina Fulwell ,
he's 20, single, his father is William occ looks to read Fruiterer,
wits Samuel & Annie Whitehouse
1901c lodging Florence with her mother Selina Turner (s in law) to Samuel & Annie Whitehouse
this looks to be Selina's death
Selina Turner (born c1868) Burial 1 Feb 1902 Burial Place: Aston, St Peter and St Paul, Warwickshire
At the moment this is the only Samuel Turner born c1870 Birmingham on the 1891 census occ Hawker I can see but he's already married wife Mary, dau. Lily 2 (1889) ???
This looks to be his marriage Samuel Turner's age 18 occ Fruiterer father William occ. Fruiterer married 1889 a Mary Dance father Francis occ Hawker
possible baptism for Lily
7 May 1889 St James the Less Ashted
Elsie Lily Turner born 18 April 1889 Parents Samuel occ Fruiter & Mary Jane
abode Coleshill St.
Will take a look again later
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Good afternoon
It does look like Samuel has married twice.
On the 1891 census Samuel and Mary have a daughter Lily who is baptised at St James the Less Ahsted
Elsie Lily born 18.4.1889 bapt 7.5.1889 Coleshill st fruiterer to Samuel and Mary Jane Turner.
In 1911 census she is living with her grandmother and uncle.As I can't post the 1911,this is the family in 1901.61 Grosvenor Road Birmingham
William Turner 54 green grocer Bham
Jane 52 Bham
Albert 25 tyre maker Aston
Lily 21 tyre expander Aston
Arthur 20 tyre maker Aston
Elsie L 12 grand daughter Bham
Ada 5 Aston
John Hoar 25 boarder (uncle 1911) rubber tyre maker India
Surely Ada is your grandmother?
Possible death for Mary Ann turner Sep 1892 Aston age 22 6d 181
I can't find a entry for Samuel Turner in 1901 but there is a Samuel in 1911 age 39 fruiterer, which could be him.Unfortunately he's on his own in Aston under Lyme.
Ciderdrinker
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In 1911 census she is living with her grandmother and uncle.
As I can't post the 1911,this is the family in 1901.61 Grosvenor Road Birmingham
William Turner 54 green grocer Bham
Jane 52 Bham
Albert 25 tyre maker Aston
Lily 21 tyre expander Aston
Arthur 20 tyre maker Aston
Elsie L 12 grand daughter Bham
Ada 5 Aston
John Hoar 25 boarder (uncle 1911) rubber tyre maker India
Surely Ada is your grandmother?
Possible death for Mary Ann turner Sep 1892 Aston age 22 6d 181
Was just looking at the Hoar's ciderdrinker and about to post this
marriage 14 July 1901
Christopher John Hoar 25 lab. f William occ carter
Lily Turner 21 (1880) f William occ Fruiterer
both 63 Grosvenor Road Birmingham
I can't find a entry for Samuel Turner in 1901 but there is a
Samuel in 1911 age 39 fruiterer, which could be him.
Unfortunately he's on his own in Aston under Lyme.
I can't find him either ???
I'm only posting this entry due to his occupation and age
BUT I don't think it can be the same
Samuel as he's with his family on latest census although
a completely different occupation from bpt of dau Olga and his pob is completely wrong this
looks to be his death entry Samuel Turner age 70 (1870) Mar 1940 Macclesfield Cheshire
1901 c Lancashire
Samuel Turner 31 (1870) Macclesfield Cheshire occ Fruiterer Greengrocer
Mary 27 Macclesfield children Ernest 3 & Phyllis 1 born Manchester
Ernest born 12 Nov 1897 bp 22 Dec & Phyllis born 14 Feb 1900 bpt 25 Apr
F Samuel occ baker m Mary abode Hutton St Chorlton Rd
Olga born 24 Oct 1904 30 Nov Holy Trinity Hulme
F Samuel occ greengrocer m Mary abode 44 Raglan St
he married 17 Sep 1894 Mary Doughty - no father's names given
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQPW-12C
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Hi Ladyhawk,
That is definitely the right family.
Samuel b.abt 1859, was convicted on these dates 29 Aug 1904, 7 Nov 1904, 20 June 1907 and the last so far is 4 Feb 1908 all for begging. After that I have lost him. I am not to sure who Samuel's parents are.
Ada's birth abt 1894-5 as both Ada and Florence were baptised together. She was sent to Canada through the Middlemore Children Home group in 1905.
Her details: Passenger Lists, 1890-1960 about Ada Turner
Name: Ada Turner
Gender: Female
Age: 9
Birth Date: abt 1896
Departure Date: 20 Jun 1905
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Destination Port: Halifax, Canada
Ship Name: Siberian
Search Ship Database: Search the 'Siberian' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping line: Allan Line
Master: B T Eastaway
Ada is the grandmother of smackie. I am trying to help.
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That is definitely the right family.
Samuel b.abt 1859,
convicted on these dates 29 Aug 1904, 7 Nov 1904, 20 June 1907 and the last so far is
4 Feb 1908 all for begging.
After that I have lost him. I am not to sure who Samuel's parents are.
Ada's birth abt 1894-5 as both Ada and Florence were baptised together. She was sent to Canada through the Middlemore Children Home group in 1905.
Passenger Lists, 1890-1960
Ada Turner Age: 9
Departure Date: 20 Jun 1905
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England Destination Port: Halifax, Canada
Ship Name: Siberian
Ada is the grandmother of smackie. I am trying to help.
Do you have confirmation of Ada's mother Selina's maiden name?
Have I got the correct marriage for Samuel Turner occ Hawker to Selina Fulwell in 1892?
he's 20 years old so he would have been born c 1872 a big age gap from the court records born about c1859
Is it possible that the Samuel Turner born c 1859 in prison is a different person his occupation given as a Labourer and it looks as if this Samuel is in prison in Yorkshire in 1911 & he's single
Samuel Turner age 45 abt 1859 Birmingham occ lab.
Event Date: 29 Aug 1904
Prison or Quarter Session: HMP Wakefield West Yorkshire
Sentence: Imprisonment or Servitude
This could be him with his parents
1861 census RG 9; Piece: 2159; Folio: 19; Page: 33
Samuel Turner age 3 born c1859 Birmingham son of Charles & Emma
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This is what I have to go on for Samuel. It is an email from smackie to me:
and it was brought to my attention some time ago that when Samuel and Selina split up, Ada went with her father and Florence went with her mother. After Selina died, Florence went to her uncles home to live. Samuel got in alot of trouble with the law. He must have lost his home and he and Ada went on the street to live. The police told him on his last drunkin stoper that he had to find a home for Adas. Now i have no proof of any of that but maybe thats why she is not on the census for that time frame. Does that make sense to you? also, i think grammie went to childrens home in 1904 and canada in 1905.
Selina is definitely Fulwell and that is totally a huge age gap...know I am beginning to wonder myself?
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I don't know if allowed to post a copy of the baptisms of Ada and Florence or not? But they were baptised on the same day...parents are Samuel and Selina Turner.
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Selina is definitely Fulwell and that is totally a huge age gap...know I am beginning to wonder myself?
On that m/c Samuel's age is 20 (born 1872) occ Hawker his father is named as William Turner occ Fruiterer
Selina's married sister Annie Whitehouse & her husband Samuel witnessed the wedding
from Ada & Florence's baptism both on the same day in 1895 father Samuel's occupation is a Hawker
from ciderdrinker we have ADA on 1901 census
61 Grosvenor Road Birmingham
William Turner 54 green grocer Bham
Jane 52 Bham
Albert 25 tyre maker Aston
Lily 21 tyre expander Aston
Arthur 20 tyre maker Aston
Elsie L 12 grand daughter Bham
Ada 5 grand daughter Aston
John Hoar 25 boarder (uncle 1911) rubber tyre maker India
interestingly on that 1901 census there's Elsie L Turner age 12 granddaughter
this appears to be her baptism
7 May 1889 St James the Less Ashted
Elsie Lily Turner born 18 April 1889
Parents Samuel occ Fruiter & Mary Jane abode Coleshill St.
and she is with her parents on 1891 census father
Samuel Turner born c1870 & mother Mary (married 1889)
Samuel Turner's age 18 occ Fruiterer father William occ. Fruiterer
if I've got this correct Elsie Lily Turner born 1889
would be the step sister of Ada Lavinia & Florence Violet Turner
their father being Samuel Turner born c1870 Birmingham occ. Fruiterer/Hawker
and in 1901 FLORENCE Turner is lodging with her mother Selina with
Samuel & Annie WHITEHOUSE
Hope this makes some sort of sence - if you have access to Ancestry you can view the marriages of
Samuel Turner to Mary Dance
Samuel Turner to Selina Fulwell
and baptism of
Elsie Lily Turner 1889
and see what you make of it
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Wow! Very interesting indeed. Will take my time to look at the ancestry. Thanks Ladyhawk.
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There's also this marriage to look at occupation looks to be fitter for Samuel and fruiterer for his father William
30 June 1902 Aston Warwickshire
Samuel Turner widower 29 (1873) f William fruiterer
Elizabeth Hickling 27 single f Edward odd Engine driver
Wits Frederick Hickling & Alice Dexter
For info.
Annie Elizabeth Fulwell age 20 f John married 13 Sept 1884 St Peter & St Paul’s Church Aston to Samuel Whitehouse
Wish we could locate Samuel Turner born c 1872 Birmingham on the 1901 census ???
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Another marriage? :-X
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Egads, Samuel must've been scoundrel! :o
If he married Mary Dance in 1889 she would've been pregnant with Elsie Lily.
Then on his marriage to Selina he is a bachelor? Can that happen? Unless the marriage was annulled?
Then his marriage to Elizabeth he is a widow which makes sense since Selina died in 1902.
I can't find him on any census and so the criminal past of Samuel is now off the table due to the age but seeing Ada on the 1901 Census that you posted makes me feel good for the fact that at least her grandparents were looking after her.
ciderdrinker and miriamkinga posts I have had to rule out for Florence's information as I have made contact with the owner of that particular tree and it is a different family.
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seeing Ada on the 1901 Census posted makes me feel good for the fact that at least her grandparents were looking after her.
61 Grosvenor Road Birmingham
William Turner 54 green grocer Bham
Jane 52 Bham
Albert 25 tyre maker Aston
Lily 21 tyre expander Aston
Arthur 20 tyre maker Aston
Elsie L 12 grand daughter Bham
Ada 5 grand daughter Aston
John Hoar 25 boarder (uncle 1911) rubber tyre maker India
So I wonder if this could be the 1873 christening of Samuel Turner born 1871
parents named William & Jane
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JM1X-8K3
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Yes, that makes sense. So we are on the right track, Ladyhawk! :)
Unfortunately , I have to take my mom shopping right now and I know it is approx 7:00 pm for you. So hopefully we can correspond soon. I should be back within a couple of hours. Hopefully that won't be too late for you.
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This looks to be William & Jane Turner on 1881 census Litchfield Road
with children Albert, Lily & Samuel born 1873 plus other children father's occupation Fruiterer
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X3TD-WMZ
and 1871c William, Jane, William & Thomas Turner
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KD85-RF6
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I will be going off line shortly but may be back later or if not it will be tomorrow :)
On 1871c William’s occupation is an Iron Bedstead Maker
Baptisms on same day parents William & Jane
Samuel born 17th Nov 1871, Selenia , Thomas & William
28 Dec 1873 St Peter & St Paul's Church Aston
Occ father William Turner Bedstead maker abode Litchfield Road
There’s a possible marriage
4 Aug 1867 St Peter & St Paul’s Church Aston
William Turner 20 occ Castor f John occ pearl button maker to
Jane Wallis 19 f Absalom oc gun barrel welder
William Turner born 28th March 12 Apr 1847 Birmingham, St Philip
Parents John pearl button maker & Harriett abode Vauxhall Road
1851 HO107; Piece: 2061; Folio: 725; Page: 3
John Turner 32 Pearl Button Maker wife Harriett 33
Children
John 13, Edward 12, Hannah 9, Henry 5, WILLIAM 3 , Harriett 2 & Fanny 5 months
Sarah THACKER mother 56 Ashbourne Derbyshire
Sarah Thacker is with John, Harriet, John & Edward Turner on 1841 c
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I am back now but we probably won't connect again until tomorrow morning my time, Ladyhawk.
Was wondering about William's occupation could he have switched from bedstand maker to a grocer? I guess it is not impossible...
That is good information to help smackie with her genealogy on the Turner side. Would love to find out where Florence ended up and with who and if they do indeed have a half sibling, Elsie. Where did she get to?
So many questions and would love to thank you all for the information that has been coming forth. I am positive smackie would agree but since I set her up with the account. I think we have lost her somewhere?! :)
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Was wondering about William's occupation could he have switched from bedstand maker to a grocer? I guess it is not impossible...
I was wondering about that also but the baptisms/births of Thomas, William, Samuel & Selina Turner do see to match up with parents William & Jane their abode in 1881 was Litchfield Road where William's ocupation is now a Fruiterer
Unfortunately I couldn't find the baptisms of their other children Edward, Albert & Jane ???
was hoping that they may show that their father William's occupation was now a Fruiterer
I did find marriages for Jane & Selina,
Lily's previously given father William occ Fruiterer
Jane Harding witnessed the marriage of her sisters Lily & Selina
4 Dec 1898 St Peter & St Paul Aston
Jane Turner 20 f William occ Fruiterer married Frederick William Harding
One witness was Selina Turner
11 Mar 1900 St Peter & St Paul Aston
Selina Turner 25 f William occ Salesman married Thomas Lawrence
One witness Jane Harding
Would love to find out where Florence ended up and with who
and if they do indeed have a half sibling, Elsie. Where did she get to?
Both girls are not married before 1911
There is this marriage entry but can't say if her middle name is Lily
FreeBMD 1916 Aston
Elsie L Turner to Walter Emerson
:( unfortunatley this marriage not available to view on line to check father's name etc....
As for Florence Violet Turner marriage entry in 1911 Aston
you have managed to rule her out as not being the Florence you are looking for
There are many other marriages for persons named Florence V Turner from 1914 onwards
but none in Aston - it's difficult to say if any of those are her without seeing a m/c to confirm
father's name etc....
There is a death entry Birmingham 1916 for a
Florence V Turner age 17 born c1899 , your Florence V Turner was born c1893 so I guess not
a match
Perhaps she married without using her middle name there are quite a fews marriage entries on FreeBMD (searched counties Warwickshire after 1911) for persons named Florence Turner
1914 Aston Pursall no births
1918 Aston Bloxham birth Florence A 1919 Aston mmn Turner
1923 Aston S... male birth 1924 Aston mmn Turner
1924 Aston S.....
as she was living in Aston it's quite probably that she married in that area
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Good Morning! I need a good injection of coffee yet before I begin.
You have been doing some work already. Do you subscribe to ancestry? If not maybe something will come up for Edward, Albert and Jane. I could do some look up on that part.
Having a Lily and Selina in that family group only confused me...i have noticed that with my own family tree. It seems like the males of the family sometimes carried on through the generations :-[ which makes it harder to pinpoint who is who.
I should have told that I do have a family tree on ancestry that has our Florence in it and have corresponded with the owner but they have yet to message back. I think that it is on the Fulwell side. I messaged them last night letting them know of Elsie's existence...hopefully they will get back to me...fingers crossed.
I jus tried to see if there was a family tree for Elsie and Walter but unsuccessful so far.
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Good Morning! I need a good injection of coffee yet before I begin.
You have been doing some work already. Do you subscribe to ancestry? If not maybe something will come up for Edward, Albert and Jane. I could do some look up on that part.
Sorry forgot I was still logged on I was away from the PC having a late lunch!
I do subscribe to Ancestry I did have a look but couldn't see anything for Edward, Albert & Jane
perhaps you will have more luck.
A recap on what has been found for SAMUEL TURNER
Bapt 28 Dc 1973 born 17th Nov 1871 parent William Turner occ Bedstead maker & Jane
1881c Litchfield Road with parents William occ Fruiterer & Jane
1889 married Mary Dance single, his occ Fruiterer, father William Fruiterer
1889 Elsie Lily Turner bpt parents Samuel occ Hawker & Mary Jane
1891c Samuel occ Hawker with wife Mary 22, dau Lily 2
only death I can see for a Mary Turner between 1891 – 1892 has a
middle name ANN age 22 (1870) according dau’s bapt. her middle name Jane
(maybe worth checking to see if she can be found on 1901 census)
1892 married Selina Fulwell single, his occ Hawker father William Fruitier
children Florence Violet & Ada Lavinia bpt together 1895 his occ Hawker
1901c Samuel NOT found
his dau Elsie L with grandparents William & Jane also with same gd parents
his & Selina’s dau Ada, their dau Florence with Uncle, Aunt & mother Selina
1902 possible remarried Elizabeth Hickling he's a widower, his occ Fitter :-\ f William Fruiterer
1911c he’s appears to be living alone, married (see reply No 6 from ciderdrinker)
So where is the elusive Samuel Turner in 1901 ??? ???
- sometimes have found that when a male person is not present on 1901 census they may
be serving in the Boer War 1901-1902
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Hello Ladyhawk,
I am presently checking out the website:www.angloboerwar.com/name-search as there are 17,674 pages and skipping through two pages at a time until I get to the surnames of Turner. I might be awhile before I get back.
I too believe that ciderdrinker is right as well for the 1911 Census with Samuel.
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Oh my goodness! That was a fruitless effort. I even signed up and paid for a month's subscription to Forces War Records!! What a scam.
I honestly don't know where to go now :(
I have just a message back from the ancestry tree for Fulwell and it seems that they have a living Fulwell who was married to their sister and are not in contact with him but they are trying to get a email address for him so that smackie and the living descendant can make contact. So maybe he is the key to the information on Florence and Elsie. :)
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Oh my goodness! That was a fruitless effort. I even signed up and paid for a month's subscription to Forces War Records!! What a scam.
I honestly don't know where to go now :(
I’m just not seeing a Samuel Turner occ. Hawker/Fruiterer born Birmingham c1873
that would match with the 1911 Samuel you have in Aston under Lyne ??? ???
Assuming that it is the same Samuel Turner that marries in Aston 0n 30 Jun 1902 to
Elizabeth Hickling spinster, he gives his occupation as a FITTER
his father William occ Fruiterer
his father William’s occupation is consistent with his 1889 & 1892 marriages to
Mary Dance & Sarah Fulwell
and on all the marriage certs it looks as if Samuel Turner has signed his name
there is no (x) ‘the mark of’ next to his name on all the m/c yet on the latest census
after the signature of ST circled we have the initials of the Enumerator :-\
maybe worth checking Elizabeth Hickling and the address given on their m/c
they were both were living at 24 Bevington Road
from Midlands, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1955 they were not living at
24 Bevington Road in 1912 that's the earliest date I could find :(
We know that Selina Turner nee Fulwell died in 1902 but what about his first wife
Mary Turner nee Dance from the 1891 census born Sheffield :-\
Mary Jane Dance age 2 born Sheffield with parents Francis & Catherine on 1871c
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V518-3XY and
Mary Dance age 12 born Sheffield with her parents Francis & Catherine in 1881c
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X3VQ-7N5
Looking back at the 1902 m/c I can trace Elizabeth Hickling with her parents BUT
cannot find her on the 1901 census and has she died before 1911 ???
Here's the censuses I have found for her
from marriage cert. her father is Edward engine driver wit. is a Frederick Hickling
1881c RG11; Piece: 3033; Folio: 29; Page: 49 show us that
Elizabeth Hickling was born c1874 Aston Warwickshire dau of Edward occ engine driver
& Anne living in Liston Pl Lingard St Aston siblings Robert J, William, Alfred, Ann, Elizabeth,
George & Thomas H
1891 RG12; Piece: 2424; Folio: 86; Page: 38
she’s Eliza age 17 pob Birmingham still at home with parents & siblings
she has a brother Frederick J age 11
Her brother Fred Hickling age 19 is with his widowed mother Ann & brother Thomas living in Aston 1901c
As I can't find Elizabeth/Eliza Hickling born c1874 on the 1901 census either ???
Perhaps she and Samuel are together somewhere :-\
I have just a message back from the ancestry tree for Fulwell and it seems that they have a living Fulwell who was married to their sister and are not in contact with him but they are trying to get a email address for him so that smackie and the living descendant can make contact.
So maybe he is the key to the information on Florence and Elsie. :)
Keep my fingers crossed
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I was up late last night going through ancestry so this morning have quite the headache. So am going to lay down to ease the pain..
I too came up with the same information. I just don't know what happened with the two.
Maybe they or Samuel changed his name?
There are two deaths that might be useful
Turner, Samuel
Age 38
Warwick
6d 762
I figured give or take +- 1 year or so.
Turner, Elizabeth
Age 41
W. Bromwich
6b 875
Which makes her spot on for age.
I did consider them leaving England and found a 1920 Census in USA with a Samuel and Elizabeth but their race was black so back to square one.
I saw a ancestry tree but for Elizabeth it just showed Samuel as the spouse but nothing else.