RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: king ranger on Tuesday 06 May 14 08:48 BST (UK)
-
Hi can anyone throw some light on the above title. We were told a soldier could not be sent abroad in 1915 until he was 19years old, now i found a soldier we were interested in Robert Baird 2nd Batt Kosb 44063 . Robert was killed 3rd Sept 1916 aged 18.Had the age been lowered by then or has Robert Lied about his age like many did, my wife has asked on another forum but has had no replies so i thought i would try here.Thank you.
Colin.
-
http://www.1914-1918.net/recruitment.htm
Although my grandmothers brother joined up when he was 15. Only lasted 10 days, his mother found out. He went on to join the navy later.
-
06550 Gunner Joseph Smith Routledge, 23 Heavy Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery, died 2 SEP 1918. His records survive perfectly which include a copy of his birth certificate sent by his (middle class) father, birth 8 October 1898, Ryhope County Durham. He was under age serving overseas and his father Thomas Miller Routledge successfully had him repatriated to Britain. He was sent back to France after reaching his 18th birthday and was killed Neuville-St-Vaast area, Pas de Calais, France. He is my 3rd Cousin 2 times removed.
-
Thanks for replies, so if It is right that they could not send men abroad until they were 19 in 1915, it looks like they did lower the age by 1916 if as BarryD say's his relation was sent to France when he became 18.
Colin
-
This is a quote from my earlier link, you would have had to read to the end to see it;- A further extension of the Military Service Act on 10 April 1918, followed a serious political crisis concerning the provision of manpower - which along with a large extension of the British section of the Western Front, was cited as a prime cause of the defeat of the Fifth Army in March 1918. This act reduced the maximum age of recruitment to 50 and allowed soldiers aged 18 years and 6 months to be sent overseas as long as they had had six months training..
-
Sorry Youngtug never saw your link.Thats what i was looking for i had read the Long Trail but must have missed that section.
Many Thanks
Colin.
-
Hi all
If you are interested in the topic of Boy Soldiers of the Great War, read the book by Richard van Emdem. It's a fascinating book and so informative on many aspects of the Great War. The author tells you what the regulations were, how they were flouted and also how the age of a boy to be sent overseas changed as the war progressed as the demand for men increased. I can't recommend it highly enough. As an aside boys were allowed at a lower age into the Navy and there was some movement of recruits deemed too young for the Army.
PS - There were still those who slipped through the net!
-
There were still those who slipped through the net!
Like this one.
-
Thank you all for your posts, the point behind the post was my mates Grandad David Alexander was in the 2nd Batt KOSB and his best mate Robert Baird joined him. What i was told was David could not go to Mons with the BEF as he was not 19 till oct 1914 he went on Jan 15th 1915.What threw us was we noticed that Robert was killed on 3rd Sept 1916 aged 18 ,which looked like he had lied about his age.The post from Youngtug states they did reduce the age to 18 but not until May 1916 if Robert went at the same time as David he must have been under age,or he did not go until May 1916 and was killed in Sept 1916. That does look like a good read about the Boy Soldiers , i am sure that when i was taking photo's of ww1 graves at South Queensferry Cemetery some of the boy sailors from Jutland were only 14.
-
John "Jack" Kipling, 17 August 1897 - 27 September 1915 only son of Rudyard Kipling. Killed at the Battle of Loos, France, aged 18 years 1 month and 10 days. He was an officer prior to being 18 and was killed shortly after his 18th birthday.
-
Was just reading about him the other day,they are not 100% sure it is him in the GWGC grave as there was i think it said three other Irish Guards Officers that had not been found.I suppose it is like a lot of things if you had the money or the contacts rules could be bent.
-
Victor Marlborough ("Slow, Slow, Quick-Quick, Slow") Silvester (25 February 1900 - 14 August 1978) was another boy soldier. He survived but there may be some embellishment in his actual service.
-
Oh i remember him well,never knew he was a soldier, as they say you are never to old to learn.
-
Thank you all for your posts, the point behind the post was my mates Grandad David Alexander was in the 2nd Batt KOSB and his best mate Robert Baird joined him. What i was told was David could not go to Mons with the BEF as he was not 19 till oct 1914 he went on Jan 15th 1915.What threw us was we noticed that Robert was killed on 3rd Sept 1916 aged 18 ,which looked like he had lied about his age.The post from Youngtug states they did reduce the age to 18 but not until May 1916 if Robert went at the same time as David he must have been under age,or he did not go until May 1916 and was killed in Sept 1916. That does look like a good read about the Boy Soldiers , i am sure that when i was taking photo's of ww1 graves at South Queensferry Cemetery some of the boy sailors from Jutland were only 14.
Hi king ranger
Van Emden’s book does make very interesting reading – a covers a multitude of scenarios and situations that occurred. For example, when war started many battalions had boys already attached as band members and when the order came for the Battalion to go to war then boy solider just naturally went along. People only thought afterwards that the boys should not be there. During the recruitment process boys did try and enlist and in many areas a blind eye was turned. In some areas as war progressed boys were actively pursued by recruiting officers as they ‘looked’ big and strong enough and were shamed into enlisting although still not old enough.
Van Emdem covers so many very interesting facets on the topic of the boy solider. Again, at one point boys who were underage were made to leave their Battalions and go back from the front lines until of age, some Commanders allowed the boys to return, others did not as the boy could not be spared as they had become a well needed solider. Those that went back– went to a sort of a school until they reached the designated age and were then sent back to the Front. Anyway, I think if you can do read the book you will probably be able to see where the man you are researching fits in.
-
Hi there just got a copy of The Boy Soldiers of the Great War on Amazon,thought i knew the authors name same chap that wrote the Harry Patch book. I have a feeling it is going to throw up more questions than answers but will give it a read.lol.
-
Glad you managed to get a copy. You won't regret it. The book just covers so much - interviews with some of the 'boys' from the Great War before they passed away, the view of the parents, the political side of things, and more. I would be interested to know what you think when you have read it! :)
CD
-
Going away up to Aberdeen to photograph ww1 graves but it should be here for me on Sunday night when i get back,once i read it i will get back to you.
Colin.
-
The rules were different for officers and other ranks - officers could be sent to the front aged 18, other ranks 19. Obviously there were many who lied to get into the action during the early months of the war. These would turn up in France in 1915/16.
Regarding the lowering of the age for other ranks on 10 April 1918 as noted above, this was to some extent retrospective. I have just been researching a lad who was sent out in the opening days of April 1918 despite being under 19. The crisis of late March that caused the change didn't wait for the legislation to be passed, even though it was rushed through. In the case of William Crocker (http://westberkshirewarmemorials.org.uk/texts/stories/WBP01068S.php) it was seriously bad news - he died on 11 April, aged 18, after 9 days in France.
-
The rules were different for officers and other ranks - officers could be sent to the front aged 18, other ranks 19. Obviously there were many who lied to get into the action during the early months of the war. These would turn up in France in 1915/16.
Regarding the lowering of the age for other ranks on 10 April 1918 as noted above, this was to some extent retrospective. I have just been researching a lad who was sent out in the opening days of April 1918 despite being under 19. The crisis of late March that caused the change didn't wait for the legislation to be passed, even though it was rushed through. In the case of William Crocker (http://westberkshirewarmemorials.org.uk/texts/stories/WBP01068S.php) it was seriously bad news - he died on 11 April, aged 18, after 9 days in France.
That really is tragic only lasted 9 day's.I am begining to think that David and Robert although they were the best of mates and did both end up in the same KOSB Batt ,they must have arrived in France at different times as their army numbers are no where near each other.
-
What was David's number? If he was at Mons he must have been a Regular as they were the only troops with enough training to go with the BEF. The first Territorials to be sent were I believe the London Scottish followed soon after by the Liverpool Scottish. In the latter case the Regulars did not want them, and kept them in reserve until they had been through the first battle, and survived the very bad first winter,
I would expect a Regular at Mons to have a number in the low five digits.
Ken
-
Hi Ken we know David was not at Mons he did not sail to France until 15th January 1915,the reason given was he did not become 19 until until Oct 27 1914 so he could not be sent over till he was 19. But what threw us was his mate Robert Baird who lived around the corner from him was supposed to have gone with him .We then noticed that Robert was killed 3rd Sept 1916 aged 18 so how did he get to France under 19 or did he lie about his age, or when they did lower the age in 1916 Robert could only have been in France a few months before being killed which means he did not go over with David. David was 13856,and Robert going by the CWGC was number 44063 which also shows their numbers being miles apart. David was a regular he stayed in until 1920, he was wounded at 3rd Battle of Ypres and moved into the MGC 1918-1920.
Colin.
-
Date of death (Sep 1916) and number (44000s) both seem right for a Kitchener recruit - which is the period of recruitment when lads were lying about their age.
As for the tragedy of William Crocker's death after 9 days in France, the other Crocker on Newbury memorial (Thomas (http://www.westberkshirewarmemorials.org.uk/texts/stories/WBP01134S.php)) died the first time he went into action, 3 days after landing at Gallipoli. It was often the newbies who fell.
-
As regards youngsters in the BEF my great uncle was a 17 year old Lance Corporal with the Grenadier Guards who was killed in the retreat from Mons on 1 September 1914.
Imber
-
Purely out of interest......my maternal great grandfather, a Sherwood Forester, was 39 years old when he volunteered in 1914. He was 'too old' at the time but lied about his age. He was in the first Battle at Ypres and got shot up in his left arm and was subsequently medically discharged. My paternal Grandfather, was just 18 when he subsequently volunteered in 1914, was a machine gunner (trained at Belton Camp in my home town of Grantham ) and went overseas too. I believe that the powers that be turned a blind eye to their age discretions. Once conscription came in in 1916, they relaxed the rules on age, increasing it to mid 40s and allowing much younger lads to enlist. Our boys were so patriotic initially, many thought it would be over quickly. My Grandfather went through the whole lot and survived until the 1970s. However, he did suffer the effects of the mustard gas which may have contributed to his later ill health. The only time he spoke about the war was to my dad, when he joined up for National Service. During that one time conversation he told my dad that when he was firing the vickers machine gun across the trenches, he asked his superior if he could 'shoot at the Gerrys' from the knees down as he was feeling really sick of all the body parts flying all over the place' he was subsequently given a stiff telling off! The hell they must have gone through. I am so proud of both of them.
-
As regards youngsters in the BEF my great uncle was a 17 year old Lance Corporal with the Grenadier Guards who was killed in the retreat from Mons on 1 September 1914.
Imber, Hi Imber, everytime i think i am getting close to an answer then another post throws up more possibilities. My mate said he was convinced his Grandfather David Alexander did serve in India, but as we were told he could not go oversea's until he was 19 we had ruled him out being there pre 1915, your great uncle is proof that underage soldiers were going abroad at the start of the war. I am wondering if David could have been in India underage with the 1st Batt KOSB Pre WW1 then moved into the 2nd Batt at the start of January 1915 When he sailed to France.But without any records to go by it looks like we might never find out.
Colin.
-
Once conscription came in in 1916, they relaxed the rules on age, increasing it to mid 40s and allowing much younger lads to enlist.
Not so - conscription was introduced in January 1916 for all between 19 and 41, it became much harder to enlist underage. In the early days of the war there was a good amount of 'turning a blind eye' from the recruiters, and a lot of lads trying it on, some were even encouraged by their parents! By 1916 the reality of war was apparent and lads were far less likely to want to enlist.
In May 1916 the lower age was reduced to 18 - so they could send them out fully trained when they turned 19.
-
Hi folks i have asked this question on another post before, but was wondering if anybody can throw some light on it again. David Alexander was born Oct 1895 was sent to France Jan 15th 1915. We know he left the KOSB in 1918 and was in the MGC 1918- 1920 till they disbanded . Does anyone think it he signed on for 6 or 7 years his records might still be being held , one poster told us he would have signed on for the duration of the war and not for 6-7 years, but although fighting was going on in the 1920 era would that still have been classed as the duration of the war.Thanks for any help.
Colin.
-
Glad you managed to get a copy. You won't regret it. The book just covers so much - interviews with some of the 'boys' from the Great War before they passed away, the view of the parents, the political side of things, and more. I would be interested to know what you think when you have read it! :)
CD
Book still not arrived ,it has been dispatched but no show yet.
-
Just finished off reading the book Boy Soldiers of the Great War. When i saw that my man Robert Baird had been killed at 18 years old i thought he must have been able to lie about his age and get off with it, but i then went from being proud to disgusted to read that Boys of 13,14,15, were also being allowed to join up then be sent abroad really has hit me. It makes you wonder what kind of life did they have to want to go and volunteer for this ,of course they never knew how bad it would be till they got there. When i was young i used to be proud of the old Red White and Blue and at how we once ruled large parts of the world, but im afraid the more i read on the subject the more i think it was very close to being licensed murder by the British State.I have always had pride in our armed forces and always will respect them,but to the faceless men who allowed this to happen were nothing more than BUTCHERS.
-
I sympathise with your view but that was a long time ago now and I am reminded of the well known saying "The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."
Imber
-
Imber i was asked to leave my opinion on the book once i had read it. I gave what in my mind was a truthful answer, maybe not the one people wanted or expected to hear. I dont claim to be right, but if asked i will always give what in my mind is an honest opinion.
Colin
-
Don't take it the wrong way Colin. We all have different views on such topics and yours is perfectly valid. I was just musing on how attitudes change as society changes, not being critical in any way.
Imber
-
No problem at all Imber ,you are right in what you say. I have only really got interested in The Great War in the past ten years ,both of my grandfathers worked in the shipyards in Aberdeen so neither saw service in the forces. I am very much on a learning curve regards the Great War if at any time i post on a subject please feel free to tell me if you think i am wrong i will not be offended.Now i am retired i have more time to read and learn about the subject from people that are much more knowledgeable about it than i am.
Colin.
-
Hi folks i have asked this question on another post before, but was wondering if anybody can throw some light on it again. David Alexander was born Oct 1895 was sent to France Jan 15th 1915. We know he left the KOSB in 1918 and was in the MGC 1918- 1920 till they disbanded . Does anyone think it he signed on for 6 or 7 years his records might still be being held , one poster told us he would have signed on for the duration of the war and not for 6-7 years, but although fighting was going on in the 1920 era would that still have been classed as the duration of the war.Thanks for any help.
Colin.
If he went to France with an infantry regiment in Jan 1915 then he was already a serving soldier when war was declared. He was probably held back when his battalion went to France in 1914 because he was under 19.
If he was a Regular (some Territorials went over pretty early) his attestation/enlistment would probably have been for 12 years, which was normally split into two sections, 5 or 7 years with the colours followed by 7 or 5 years with the Reserve. If he signed up on his 18th birthday in 1913 he would probably have served (barring the very real likelihood of death, injury or disease) until 1920. If necessary he could have been kept on for the remainder of his 12 years (unlike Kitchener recruits and conscripts who signed on for the duration regulars were comiitted to serve the full 12 year term if needed). He may even have re-enlisted for a further term. If he served on after the war his record may well still be with the MoD, certainly will be if he served out his 12 years in uniform (ie until 1925).
If he was a Territorial he would have signed up for a 4 year term (until 1917 or later) at which point he would have been compulsorily re-enlisted for the duration. Generally speaking 'the duration' meant until the got round to demobilising the chap, mostly in 1919. Some were kept on longer where deemed necessary.
-
Hi folks i have asked this question on another post before, but was wondering if anybody can throw some light on it again. David Alexander was born Oct 1895 was sent to France Jan 15th 1915. We know he left the KOSB in 1918 and was in the MGC 1918- 1920 till they disbanded . Does anyone think it he signed on for 6 or 7 years his records might still be being held , one poster told us he would have signed on for the duration of the war and not for 6-7 years, but although fighting was going on in the 1920 era would that still have been classed as the duration of the war.Thanks for any help.
Colin.
If he went to France with an infantry regiment in Jan 1915 then he was already a serving soldier when war was declared. He was probably held back when his battalion went to France in 1914 because he was under 19.
If he was a Regular (some Territorials went over pretty early) his attestation/enlistment would probably have been for 12 years, which was normally split into two sections, 5 or 7 years with the colours followed by 7 or 5 years with the Reserve. If he signed up on his 18th birthday in 1913 he would probably have served (barring the very real likelihood of death, injury or disease) until 1920. If necessary he could have been kept on for the remainder of his 12 years (unlike Kitchener recruits and conscripts who signed on for the duration regulars were comiitted to serve the full 12 year term if needed). He may even have re-enlisted for a further term. If he served on after the war his record may well still be with the MoD, certainly will be if he served out his 12 years in uniform (ie until 1925).
If he was a Territorial he would have signed up for a 4 year term (until 1917 or later) at which point he would have been compulsorily re-enlisted for the duration. Generally speaking 'the duration' meant until the got round to demobilising the chap, mostly in 1919. Some were kept on longer where deemed necessary.
Thank you very much for your post. There is nobody left alive in the family to tell us how long after the war David was still in. When we got his medal index card if said RETD 1920 so we thought that meant he retired from the Army in 1920 but it appears that it was his medals that had been returned in 1920, so he may very well have been still in a lot longer than 1920.As i have posted before his Grandson is convinced that at some stage he served in India, we got research done but no trace of him in India could be found.With the MGC being disbanded in 1920 he would of course have had to go into another regiment if he was still in the army.