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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: lanarman on Monday 05 May 14 00:44 BST (UK)
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On all the major websites for vital records, I cannot seem to find a marriage registration for my GGG Grandparents who lived in Cambuslang. Their son was baptized (OPR's) in 1824 as "lawful son of " so I presume the parents were married c. 1820-1823. Would there, by chance, be some marriage registers missing for Cambuslang in that time period?
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The Cambuslang OPRs are quite good, from 1746 there is a very good marriage register, nice condition and easy to read. The hand changes in January 1798 and becomes a scrawl but improves by November 1817 and ends at April 1820. Proclamations of Banns from May 1820, good condition, end at December 1854.
So the period you are looking for is covered and it may be that either your ancestors were married in another parish or that they did not pay to have the Banns recorded or, they were married in a church other than the parish church. One of the Secession churches perhaps?
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I think some entries were missed from the OPR by the clerk.
My own ggg grandparents were "proclaimed" as married in 1815, just a few days before the baptism of their first child.
However, I was never able to find the marriage banns for the brother of my ggg grandmother and assumed his marriage would be found in the neighbouring parish of Rutherglen.
I have since discovered a newspaper article for his Diamond Wedding Anniversary.
It states that he and his wife married in Cambuslang Manse on 30 Nov 1827... it's not in the OPR.
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I think some entries were missed from the OPR by the clerk
Entries were not made by the session clerk unless a sum of money (used to upkeep the poor of the parish) was paid. No payment - no entry. Banns were proclaimed no matter what happened.
Being married in the manse or the bride's home was the norm, only rich folk were married in the church.
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Thanks for the comments. I have both GGG Grandparent's baptismal entries-GGG Grandfather in Glasgow in 1801 and GGG Grandmother in Cambuslang in 1794. Yes, she was 7 years older than him. Both in the established OPR Church of Scotland records. Their only child- a son- was baptized in Cambuslang in 1824- same church- so I have no reason to believe that they were married in another denominational church.
GGG Grandmother- her 3 brothers and 1 older sister were supposedly married in Cambuslang but can only find one marriage entry for one of them in 1821. So its still a bit of a mystery to me.
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Update: I did some more extensive searching on SP and found the 3 PARK brother marriages (Hugh, Andrew, James) all in Cambuslang- 1812, 1820 and 1821. My GGG Grandmother was Marrion PARK, their sister. Another sister was Mary PARK born 1792 in Cambuslang but her marriage to William ARBUCKLE has still not been found. Arbuckle's death certificate in 1875 stated that Mary Park was his second wife.
Back to GGG Gran Marrion- she was 7 years older than her husband William UMPHERSTON. Theoretically she could have been married circa 1815. I wonder if she was married previous before Umpherston and the first husband died.
My point- the 2 Park sisters- if they were married twice would that have changed the way they were "registered" in the parish register for their second marriages? (I really dont know why it would. I'm just throwing that theory "out there").
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Hi lanarman
In Scotland, married women never 'lost' their maiden names by law. This is the reason their maiden names feature prominantly in records. Grave incriptions for example have married women under their maiden name too (Mary Smith wife of John Grant for example). Scotlands People also let you search for deaths of married women with both maiden and married surnames...which is always useful in narrowing down results.
In respect of second marriages in this period you are looking at, widows remarrying would normally show under their maiden names. Life is never 100%...but this was normal practice.
Monica
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Hi Monica:
On SP, the 2 Park sister's marriages do not show up under "Park" or anything else. Thanks for confirming that (if) they married a second time, it would most likely be registered under their maiden names.
annep5892 : your Cambuslang ancestors and mine could have rubbed shoulders and your comments about not being in the OPR's seems to fit with my situation.
Lanarman
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Hello,
My gt gt gt grandparents lived in Cambuslang in 1841 and after that date they seem to disappear.
They were William Struthers, his wife Margaret Kyle (both born in East Kilbride around 1782) and their daughter Agnes Struthers (born 1815).
I can't find any of them in the 1851 census despite extensive searching. None of them are mentioned in either old parish record deaths for cambuslang and East Kilbride or are registered after 1855 in the statutory death index. I've spent a small fortune viewing death records for Agnes, but so far nothing.
Does anyone have any advice as I seem to have hit a dead end and am getting desperate!
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Hi
Welcome to Rootschat :)
Where are they in the 1841 census :-\ What other children do they have :-\
The more information you can give, the better our chances of helping you ;D ;D
Joy
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Londonmeerkat,
William Struthers and Margaret Kyle were also my husband's direct ancestors.
I never located them after 1841 either but, I have been researching them for 8yrs and I have a wealth of info on all their children except Agnes, Helen and Marion ( found her at 1851).
Which child are you descended from?
They were not from Cambuslang and were both born in East Kilbride.
Edit: I think I know your line now.... Elizabeth Struthers and William Neilson?
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Hi Joy,
Thanks for the welcome.
Anne, yes i'm decended from William Neilson & Elizabeth Struthers.
I've traced Helen & Marion Struthers;
Marion Struthers married John Wilson 22nd May 1853 in Glasgow. She died 2nd July 1876 in Glasgow. John Wilson (a stone mason) was born 1829 in Glasgow / died 20th May 1890 in Glasgow.
Helen Struthers married John Brown (also a stone mason) on 18th July 1845 in Cambuslang. They had two children born in Rutherglen in 1846 and 1848, but in 1851 John was described as a widow. John Brown was born 1823 in Rutherglen and died 29th May 1887 in Paisley.
I have images of the death certificates if you would like me to forward copies?
I've traced the other children and have found marriage / census and death records for all but James Struthers (I found him in 1851 in Glasgow, but by 1861 his wife was a widow - not sure when / where he died).
As for Agnes Struthers and her parents they were living at Sauchidyke in 1841 but by 1851 i'm pretty sure they must all have died. There's no mention in either East Kilbride / Cambuslang burial records on Scotlands people during that period for any of them - could they have been buried elsewhere or are there gaps in the burial registers?
What sort of information do you have on William and Margaret's children?
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Thanks Darren but I already have the death cert for John Wilson widower of Marion Struthers.
( i posted my lat message from memory and forgot that I had already unearthed Marion's marriage)
I was never sure if Helen Struthers was the wife of John Brown, but that 1851 return you mention?
The penny has finally dropped!
John Brown and John Wilson, husbands of Helen and Marion Struthers must have been.. cousins !
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Just a thought arising from my Struthers information. Have you tried Carmunnock?
Also if you have come across a link to West Rogerton Farm in East Kilbride I may have some family information.
Regards,
Baird
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Hi Baird,
I started researching my Struthers family in 2007
I haven't linked any of this family to West Rogerton.
The earliest family is James Struthers and Bethia Struthers ( maiden name) who were both in Ek parish when they married in 1771, and it's almost impossible to find definitive parents for either.
The OPR births provide a father's name only.
Back in 2008, I manually searched the OPR film at the library to find their children's births and managed to separate them from all the other children born to another James Struthers in same time period.
I found 8 births total.
I am slowly finding subsequent records for these children but so far, I have established marriages and subsequent descendants for 4 of them.
The remaining children are: James 1776, John 1778, Agnes 1780 and Helen 1786.
Anne
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Hi Baird,
That Rogerton Farm connection that you mention.
Are you by any chance. referring to a Warnock/Struthers marriage ?
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Hello AnneP,
no Warnocks I'm afraid my first Struther was Andrew 1773-1846. He died at West Rogerton Farm and was married to a Margaret McCallister . He died at West Rogerton Farm.
The children I have for them are;
Andrew , born East Kilbride 1806 married to Janet Shearer born Avondale and who died in Glasgow 1874.
Janet, Robert, Lillias and John.
Andrew and Janet Shearer had 7 children that I know of ; one of them, Margaret Struthers was the second wife of my Great Great Grandfather, William Baird. At the time of their marriage William was resident at Woodside Farm in East Kilbride and Margaret at Rogerton Farm.
William Baird died in 1892 at Dykehead Farm in Hamilton and Margaret at Lairfield Farm in Glasford in 1922.
Hope this helps but there are also Struthers wills on Scotlands People with a lot of information.
Baird
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Thanks Baird,
It was out of interest only
Warnock/Struthers marriage from 1811. Banns in Eaglesham, Renfrewshire
This couple then farmed in Eaglesham, Blantyre and Hamilton
I have death certs for both which confirms that the Struthers wife was from my family.
I have noted the age and place of birth for her husband and parents listed in the death cert
James Warnock bc 1798 in EK, parents William Warnock and Ann Smith
I don't usually research spouses in detail but there are many trees ( no doubt copied from each other) that have identified this man as born at Rogerton Farm, East Kilbride on 29 Jul 1798
As early EK OPRs baptisms don't have a mother's name, I'm not certain how anyone can positively identify him as this particular child?
However, assuming that a corresponding baptism does exist, it must put a family called Warnock at Rogerton Farm late 1790's.
My guess is tenants/ farm labourers?
Farm horse tax rolls of 1797-8 show:
2 men called Hamilton and one named Alexander Struthers, all paying horse tax at Rogerton
http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/historical-tax-rolls/farm-horse-tax-rolls-1797-1798/farm-horse-tax-1797-1798-volume-04/29#zoom=3&lat=847.66467&lon=694&layers=B
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Suggest you check the wills on Scotlands People. Usually mentions all family members.
Baird
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Hi Baird
This particular man didn't leave a will.
Even if he did, I doubt very much that it would provide his exact place of birth.
I am yet to be conviced that he was the child born at Rogerton.
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David Ure's History of East Kilbride states in his list of male heads of families for East Kilbride in the year 1790 that there were 15 Struthers and 4 Warnocks.
He also recounts an old rhyme associating family names with place names;
" Since snow was snow and grass was grass,
There were Craigs in the Park and Flemings in Knoweglass,
Watts in the Claddens and Struthers in the Skioch".
Skeoch Farm still exists.
Baird
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I have that book too.