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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: budsyblues on Monday 05 May 14 00:24 BST (UK)
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Hi all
I'm having trouble getting back any distance on my maternal grandfather's side of my tree, any help here would be greatly appreciated.
My paternal great, great grandfather's name was William Webster and his wife's name was Bridget.
My great grandmother's name was Isabella Glasgow Webster, she was born in Bendigo in 1867, her mother was Ann Glasgow according to he birth record, but they could have been her Christian names.
I can't find any records of an Ann Glasgow having been born in Australia, but she died in Bendigo in 1899, her death notice lists her as Ann Glasgow Webster.
I have found a reference to a William Webster being killed in a mine accident in Bendigo in 1868 aged 30, the year after Isabella's birth, I can't find any record of any siblings of Isabella so it's possible that he died when she was an infant and that he and Ann had no other children.
I've searched the early Victorian marriage records to no avail, and I can't find anything in the shipping records which suggest that William and Bridget Webster arrived here as a married couple, with or without children.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
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Ann's death notice in 1899 says she is beloved wife of William Webster which implies that he is still alive ???
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89457458
WEBSTER.—On the 7th February, at her
residence, Anderson-street, Ann Glasgow Webster,
beloved wife of William Webster, and sister of
the late Mrs. John McLean, aged 67 years.
regards,
Ros
adding : and this death notice which just says she is beloved wife of William Webster http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89461479
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Hi, welcome to RootsChat, the bestest place for family history searchings....
Like Ros, I too am a tad concerned about William, as I can see that the chap involved in that mining accident had either four or five children as per the newspaper cutting.
But getting onto Isabella, I can see Isabella Glasgow WEBSTER, birth registration INDEXED as
Father: William WEBSTER
Mother: Anne GLASGOW
Birth registered at Sandhurst Victoria AUSTRALIA (present day Bendigo, Vic Au)
Registered in 1867
Registration No. 10750
From Victoria Resources Board at RChat
Vic BDMs are very informative …. And will include details about BOTH parents (including when and where married), and the maiden name for the baby's mum is part of that info, so it is likely that GLASGOW was Ann's birth surname
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
Births
Date and place of birth;
name of child and whether present or not;
name of parents (including mother's maiden name);
occupation of parents;
ages and birthplace of parents;
date and place of marriage of parents;
previous children of their marriage noting living or deceased;
signature, description and address of the person who gave the information;
names of witnesses;
date and place of registation.
To support this, the online INDEX has Ann WEBSTER’s death indexed as Ann WEBSTER, at Bendigo, Victoria at age 67. Her recorded parents given as Wm GLASGOW and Janet THOMSON. Registration no. 556. From the link above, Victoria’s DEATH cert are also very informative.
Re the 1868 death of a William WEBSTER at Bendigo. I am concerned that this is NOT your chap, as you have Isabella likely being an only child. The online INDEX has a William WEBSTER as aged 30, reference #9327, parents details are NOT displayed on that index, suggesting to me there was an Inquest and the coroner was the informant, and perhaps the family history section is not giving up as many pieces of information as we would expect.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/87893180 Fatal Accident Bendigo Advertiser 7 Jan 1868 …..
“The deceased have both left wives and families, one five children, the other four, to mourn their loss."
There is information about William Webster’s funeral in the Bendigo Advertiser 9 January 1868.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/87893238
Inquest Bendigo Advertister 9 Jan 1868 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/87893245
Collection Bendigo Advertiser 17 Jan 1868 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/87893432
I will ask for this thread to be moved to the Australian Board, where it should catch the eyes of lots of Aussie RChatters. :)
Cheers, JM
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There is a birth of a sister (perhaps a twin?)
1867 Agnes Watson WEBSTER father William WEBSTER and mother Ann Glasgow in Sandhurst Victoria
reg 10749
and adding
1871 Thomas James WEBSTER father William WEBSTER and mother ANN Glasgow in Sandhurst Victoria
reg 25926
regards,
Ros
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My paternal great, great grandfather's name was William Webster and his wife's name was Bridget.
If Isabella's parents were William and Ann, then who is Bridget?
Ann WEBSTER
Died: Bendigo, Victoria
Age: 67
Father's Name: Wm GLASGOW
Mother's name: Janet THOMSON
Registered: 1899
# 556
Isabella's birth cert or Ann's death cert should give you her place of birth, and the birth cert should also tell you when and where they married.
I can't find any record of any siblings of Isabella so it's possible that he died when she was an infant and that he and Ann had no other children.
I can see two other births to William and Ann; Agnes Watson WEBSTER at Sandhurst in 1867 (consecutive reg. number with Isabella, so as Ros has said, probably a twin), and Thomas James WEBSTER at Sandhurst in 1871.
Ann's sister:
Mary McLEAN
Died: Sandhurst, Victoria
Age: 58
Father's Name: Wm GLASGOW
Registered: 1882
#13191
Debra :)
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Re the twin sisters :)
Both Isabella and Agnes seem to have married
1888 Agnes Watson WEBSTER and Stephen BRADRY, #2392, Victoria (cert may show if a parent was already deceased)
1885 Isabella Glasgow WEBSTER and Andrew James CHARLES #4095 Victoria
Their younger brother's birth certificate will give info about his older siblings as well as info about his parents, (usual address, name of informant, when and where married, etc, father's occupation at the time of Thomas' birth :) etc ) Thomas James WEBSTER born several years after that January 1868 mining accident.
Cheers, JM
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Re the twin sisters :)
1885 Isabella Glasgow WEBSTER and Andrew James CHARLES #4095 Victoria
After the death of Andrew James CHARLES, Isabella married Henry CARR and I have some details at home.
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I've searched the early Victorian marriage records to no avail...
The indexes show that Ann GLASGOW was married twice:
Marriage 1.
GLASGOW Annie m. LESLIE William 1862 #4237
Marriage 2.
LESLIE Ann (born LANARKSHIRE) m. WEBSTER William (born. LANCASHIRE) 1866 #3966
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I can't find any records of an Ann Glasgow having been born in Australia, but she died in Bendigo in 1899, her death notice lists her as Ann Glasgow Webster.
Birth & Baptism in SCOTLAND:
Anne GLASGOW
Born: 14 Sep 1828
Baptised: 21 Sep 1828
Place: Crawford, Lanark, Scotland
Father: William GLASGOW
Mother: Janet THOMSON
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And her sister Mary's birth & baptism:
Mary GLASGOW
Born: 20 Mar 1822
Baptised: 25 Mar 1822
Place: Crawford, Lanark, Scotland
Father: William GLASGOW
Mother: Janet THOMSON
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Hi all
Thank you so much for all your help, the internet truly is a marvellous resource.
Sorry Debra, Bridget was a mistake, she resides in another part of my tree.
For rwindsor, I know about Henry Carr from talking about the family with my late mother, he and Isabella married and had one child then moved to Western Australia where their son, Bindon Carr, was killed in 1945 while serving in the RAAF.
One thing that bothers me is that if William Webster wasn't the miner killed then there should be a record of his death somewhere else, but I can't find it.
Also, where do you search the birth and death records for Victoria?
I've been on the web site where you pay $1 a page but I can't even find a record there of my grandfather's birth, who was William and Isabella's son, or whether he had any siblings.
Thanks so much to everyone here for all of your help, I'm a novice but I'm now much further advanced than I was yesterday.
Cheers
Neil.
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Birth:
CARR Hy Jno Binden b. 1909 BENDIGO #8330
Father: Hy
Mother: Isabella Glasgow WEBSTER
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Births to Isabella and Andrew
1887 Ethel Jane CHARLES mother Isabella Glasgou WEBSTER father Andrew James CHARLES at Sandhurst
reg 14802
Death
1927 William CHARLES mother Isabella Glasgow WEBSTER father Andrew James CHARLES at Fitzroy age 41 reg 5474
Death
1968 Jeanette Isabel SAMBLEBE mother Isabella Gl WEBSTER father Andrew James CHARLES at Cant, Vic reg 2029 age 78
regards,
Ros
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I've searched the early Victorian marriage records to no avail...
The indexes show that Ann GLASGOW was married twice:
Marriage 1.
GLASGOW Annie m. LESLIE William 1862 #4237
Marriage 2.
LESLIE Ann (born LANARKSHIRE) m. WEBSTER William (born. LANCASHIRE) 1866 #3966
But Annie?
I have another record for a marriage in Victoria of Margaret Glasgow (born Lanarkshire) to John Canning in 1866.
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Eldest son was born before she married & there are two daughters registered from her marriage to Andrew James CHARLES:
WEBSTER William Charles b. 1885 SAND #21303
Father: -
Mother: Isabella WEBSTER
CHARLES Ethel Jane b. 1887 SAND #14802
Father: Andrew James
Mother: Isabella Glasgow WEBSTER
CHARLES Janet Isabel b. 1889 SANDHURST #16273
Father: Andw Jas
Mother: Isabella Glasgow WEBSTER
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Births to Isabella and Andrew
1887 Ethel Jane CHARLES mother Isabella Glasgou WEBSTER father Andrew James CHARLES at Sandhurst
reg 14802
Death
1927 William CHARLES mother Isabella Glasgow WEBSTER father Andrew James CHARLES at Fitzroy age 41 reg 5474
Death
1968 Jeanette Isabel SAMBLEBE mother Isabella Gl WEBSTER father Andrew James CHARLES at Cant, Vic reg 2029 age 78
regards,
Ros
Thanks Ros,
I was unaware of Ethel, Jeanette's daughter was my Auntie Lorna, still no record of my grandfather William's birth?
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But Annie?
I have another record for a marriage in Victoria of Margaret Glasgow (born Lanarkshire) to John Canning in 1866.
Anne, Ann, Annie - what is the problem with that ???
How is Margaret GLASGOW connected to your family?
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...still no record of my grandfather William's birth?
I gave you William's birth above in reply #14 ???
I think you need to read the information being posted on the thread fully.
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Eldest son was born before she married & there are two daughters registered from her marriage to Andrew James CHARLES:
Gulp!
Born in the same year they married, but no father listed on the birth record.
Does this mean what I think it means?
Oh, the shame of it all!!!!!
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...still no record of my grandfather William's birth?
I gave you William's birth above in reply #14 ???
I think you need to read the information being posted on the thread fully.
I'm trying to keep up, sorry.
The only concern I have with the marriage is that Ann, Anne or Annie Glasgow were reasonably common names back in the day and so was William Webster, I'd rather be more certain.
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Hi
Throughout the thread we have all been citing VIC BDM ref nos. If you obtain the certs these refer to you will be able to determine if Ann Anne Annie GLASGOW is ne or two or three or more people.
Cheers JM
The only concern I have with the marriage is that Ann, Anne or Annie Glasgow were reasonably common names back in the day and so was William Webster, I'd rather be more certain.
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Thanks JM
Do I get the certificates from here:
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=getHistIdxSearchCriteria
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Yes :)
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Since you've been given the registration number then here is direct link to purchase and download the image
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseImage
regards,
Ros
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Thanks Ros, and thanks to all for your help.
I'll be back soon enough, I'm stumped on a branch of my tree on my father's side as well, although I've managed to get back a fair way.
I think I've hit a brick wall in Ireland. ;)
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If you require assistance with ancestors from Ireland post your request on that particular board here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=50.0
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John MCLEAN husband of Ann's sister Mary GLASGOW died 11 Oct 1891 at BENDIGO.
MCLEAN Jno d. 1891 age 67yrs BGO #13546
Father: Duncan
Mother: Mary LAMONT
You will find a copy of his Will, Probate and Administration Records that contain names & other information that is available for download at PROV:
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
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If you require assistance with ancestors from Ireland post your request on that particular board here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=50.0
I'm not sure that I do.
One side of my father's family can be traced back to Limerick but the other I'm not certain about.
They settled on the NSW side of the Murray River around 1860 or 70 and there were heaps of kids but nothing much comes up when I search the NSW births and deaths.
I can locate some of them but not others, but one of my extended family from up that way has given me some info and photographed some headstones for me so I'm going OK.
Beats me why some of their birth records don't show up though, and none of the kids who died young do either, births or deaths.
I know where most of them came from but there's one branch of the four where the records are sparse.
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If you need assistance with NSW or any AUS records post your request/s direct to the AUS board here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,165.0.html
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One thing that we haven't been able to establish is when or where William Webster died.
If he wasn't the man killed in the mining accident then what happened to him?
His birth and parents are another matter.
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One thing that we haven't been able to establish is when or where William Webster died.
If he wasn't the man killed in the mining accident then what happened to him?
His birth and parents are another matter.
From his marriage cert, you will get HIS first hand details that he provided to the clergy. From those details we may be able to help you find him. I posted the link earlier that gives you the depth of detail available on VIC BDM records...
" Marriages
Date and place of marriage;
name and surnames;
conjugal condition, whether bachelor or spinster, widow or widower,
stating date of decease of former wife or husband;
children by each former marriage;
birthplace;
occupation;
age;
residence (present and usual);
parent's names of each party (including mother's maiden name) and occupation of father;
signatures of the parties and witnesses;
signature of Minister. Prior to 1963 the date of termination of previous marriages of the parties is also shown. "
So, the WEBSTER=GLASGOW marriage :) would be a good record to work from :) and the reference number you need is 3966 and the year you need is 1866 and Ann's surname was LESLIE at that time.
Cheers, JM
I've searched the early Victorian marriage records to no avail...
The indexes show that Ann GLASGOW was married twice:
Marriage 1.
GLASGOW Annie m. LESLIE William 1862 #4237
Marriage 2.
LESLIE Ann (born LANARKSHIRE) m. WEBSTER William (born. LANCASHIRE) 1866 #3966
But Annie?
I have another record for a marriage in Victoria of Margaret Glasgow (born Lanarkshire) to John Canning in 1866.
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Thanks JM.
I got hold of the marriage certificate for William Webster and Ann Leslie, she was indeed born Ann Glasgow. The unfortunate Mr Leslie died the year before the marriage, he and Ann had no children.
William Webster was born in Galgate, Lancashire, his parents were Thomas Webster and Agnes Watson, hence the name of one of William and Ann's daughters.
Now if I could only find what became of William.
Edit:
Ann's age on her marriage certificate is given as 27, which would make her year of birth 1839, is there something amiss in the Scottish records from earlier in this thread?
If she was in fact born in 1828 she would have been 38 on her marriage to William Webster and 43 when her youngest child was born, something doesn't add up.
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What was William WEBSTER's age on the marriage certificate?
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What was William WEBSTER's age on the marriage certificate?
25.
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William's parents marriage:
Thomas WEBSTER bachelor & Agnes WATSON spinster, both of this parish married 4 Jun 1837
St Michael, Cockerham, Lancashire
Witnesses: Daniel Webster & Marianne Webster
Married by Licence by: Vicar John Dodson
Register: Page 30, Entry 89
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Edit:
Ann's age on her marriage certificate is given as 27, which would make her year of birth 1839, is there something amiss in the Scottish records from earlier in this thread?
If she was in fact born in 1828 she would have been 38 on her marriage to William Webster and 43 when her youngest child was born, something doesn't add up.
I see you've added to your previous post.
It's quite obvious that Ann *lowered* her age at marriage because her husband was younger.
I have seen it happen many times before for either the bride or groom ;)
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Edit:
Ann's age on her marriage certificate is given as 27, which would make her year of birth 1839, is there something amiss in the Scottish records from earlier in this thread?
If she was in fact born in 1828 she would have been 38 on her marriage to William Webster and 43 when her youngest child was born, something doesn't add up.
I see you've added to your previous post.
It's quite obvious that Ann *lowered* her age at marriage because her husband was younger.
I have seen it happen many times before for either the bride or groom ;)
I've got no doubt this happens from time to time but in this case it seems odd to say the least.
A 38 year old woman would have difficulty passing herself off as 11 years younger, and even with today's medical advances starting a family at 38 is fraught with danger.
But I know that single women were probably at a premium on the Bendigo goldfields at that time , so anything is possible I guess.
I've had a few surprises since I started this research, and Ann having a child at 43 would have maybe given her daughter encouragement that she could do the same, Isabella Webster's last child was born when she was 43.
Ann and William were married in October 1866 and Isabella and her twin sister were born in 1867 so maybe there was a sense of urgency to the wedding.
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Baptism:
William WEBSTER
Baptised: 14 May 1843
Abode: Galgate
Parish: Cockerham, Ellel Chapellry, Lancashire
Father: Thomas Webster
Occupation: Silk Dresser
Mother: Agnes Webster
Register: Page 91, Entry 722
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Baptism:
William WEBSTER
Baptised: 14 May 1843
Abode: Galgate
Parish: Cockerham, Ellel Chapellry, Lancashire
Father: Thomas Webster
Mother: Agnes Webster
#722
According to the marriage certificate he was born in 1841, do they normally wait 2 years to baptise them?
Another edit:
According to the death notice Ann Glasgow was 67 when she died in 1899, so that would put her birth as 1832, so we now have three birth years, 1828 according to the record in Scotland, 1832 according to her death notice, and 1839 according to the marriage certificate she signed in 1866.
I think I'll go with Scotland. ;)
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Well, he probably *fudged* his age a little also ;D
Births are available here:
http://freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
I can't see him on the 1841 Census.
He's 7yo on the 1851 census at home with his parents & siblings.
And 17yo on 1861 census at home with his parents & siblings.
Census available here:
http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
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1843 is close enough for me, and I now know he came from Lancashire.
I'd like to know when and where he died, maybe he did a runner?
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This is the only death & burial that might be him at Bendigo:
Death:
WEBSTER Wm age 71yrs d. 1913 BENDIGO #8191
Father: Unknown
Mother: Unknown UNKNOWN
Burial:
WEBSTER WILLIAM
BENDIGO Cemetery
Burial: 26/08/1913
Interment Number: 22105
Section: MON F1
Grave Number: 22105
http://www.bencemtrust.com.au/search.asp?id=102683
Funeral:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article91016830
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article91017075
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Ann is buried in the same grave as her sister Mary & brother-in-law John MCLEAN.
I know that the old graves at Bendigo cemetery generally only have a depth to hold three adult burials.
http://www.bencemtrust.com.au/search.asp
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That 1913 death that Merlin has spotted may well be the elusive William's. The lack of parents names on the index does not actually indicate any other lack of info, as afterall, IF this is your chap, then he would be shown as a widower, and hopefully one of his children would be the informant, or someone who knew the names of late wife and their children, as there are provisions on Vic death certs for that depth of detailed information. That would be one way to help confirm or eliminate that William from your quest.
(PS, I think Vic BDMs are among the best certificates available from a family history viewpoint)
Cheers, JM
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Well a death in 1913 at age 71 ties in with his birth in Lancashire in 1843, so there's a fair chance that it's him.
I'll get the certificate and see if there's any more information on it.
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I think that's a great idea. Merlin found it for you. Do let us all know ALL the info on that cert so we can see IF we can help you further.
Cheers, JM
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Do you have Ann's death certificate?
It would show her marital status [married or widow] when she died.
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I think that's a great idea. Merlin found it for you. Do let us all know ALL the info on that cert so we can see IF we can help you further.
Cheers, JM
Very little information on the certificate at all I'm afraid, other than that Mr Webster died of apoplexy, from which he had suffered for 9 months prior to his demise.
No parents listed, nor spouse, children or anyone else apart from the certifying doctor, a Hugh Boyd MD.
This William Webster was an engine driver, late of Short Street Bendigo.
I may have to wrap up my research into William Webster at this point, I seem to have wandered up a dry gully, but thanks for all the help.
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Does the date match to the newspaper cutting?
What does the document state where he was born, and HOW LONG in the colony?
What does the document have recorded for his marital status?
While the document does not seem to have a great deal of information, it may help if you were to type up the info that it does give. Sometimes the small details can be helpful.
Cheers, JM
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Does the date match to the newspaper cutting?
What does the document state where he was born, and HOW LONG in the colony?
What does the document have recorded for his marital status?
While the document does not seem to have a great deal of information, it may help if you were to type up the info that it does give. Sometimes the small details can be helpful.
Cheers, JM
The document doesn't state any more than the information I posted.
It gives no information about where he was born or his marital status, it lists his parents as unknown.
The only identifying information is his name, age (71), occupation and street of residence.
It really is just an entry in a ledger book, very sad actually.
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Hi My grandfathers name was william Thomas Webster, My fathers name is Thomas William Webster,
My name is Glenn I was born in Bendigo. Can't be too many william websters that lived in Bendigo. Also I was told by my Father that his grandfather was william Webster also.
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Hi Glenn,
The William Webster I'm interested in was born in Lancashire in 1843, married Ann Glasgow in Bendigo in 1866 and possibly died in Bendigo in 1913, I'm assuming that this could be your father's grandfather.
The only problem could be that according to what I've been able to find out so far he and Ann Glasgow had three children, Isabella, Agnes and Thomas James, so no child named William as far as I'm aware.
From the Bendigo cemetery records:
WEBSTER, WILLIAM
Date of Death: not available
Date of Burial: 12/06/1912
Interment Number: 21583
Cemetery: BENDIGO
Section: MON M6
Grave Number: 12881
_____________________
WEBSTER, WILLIAM
Date of Death: not available
Date of Burial: 26/08/1913
Interment Number: 22105
Cemetery: BENDIGO
Section: MON F1
Grave Number: 22105
_________________________
WEBSTER, WILLIAM
Date of Death: not available
Date of Burial: 19/11/1917
Interment Number: 23705
Cemetery: BENDIGO
Section: MON L3
Grave Number: 23705
__________________________
There seems to be three possibilities for your great grandfather.
Hope this helps.