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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: KitCarson on Saturday 03 May 14 14:46 BST (UK)
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Does anyone have access to Belfast Catholic records showing the surname CARSON? I ask because, as far as I can see, neither the 1901 nor the 1911 Census of Ireland show ANY Carson's as being Catholic!
I have my GGF James Carson (b. circa 1859) who says on the 1911 English Census that he was born in 'Belfast'. He married Ellen Bowland, nee Ronan (RC from Wexford, Ireland) in Liverpool on 1 November 1886. They married at Our Lady of Reconciliation, Eldan Street, which was RC.
I'm not convinced James was RC, but can find no birth/baptismal record to prove that. If he wasn't RC, what would he have needed to do to allow him to be married in a RC Church? Would there be a record of this?
I would very much appreciate your help with records or knowledge of RC practices.
Kit
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I'm a bit lost here. The only James Carson in Lancashire 1911 that I can find has a wife Mary and children Robert, James Joseph and Miles. Address 45 Appleton Street, St. Helen's. Is this the census entry you have?
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What's his father's name and occupation given on the marriage certificate?
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There are family trees on ancestry which say that Mary Ronan married John Bowland in 1882 at St. Alban's Roman Catholic church. He died then following year, the couple having had one child Lucy born , registered with the surname Boland. Mary Bowland then married James Carson in 1886 at Our Lady of Reconciliation Eidan St.
Both marriages are recorded in UKBMD as Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended. If you know Mary Ronan was Roman Catholic, then this indicates that both John Bowland and James Carson were not.
If a non-Roman Catholic is to marry in a Roman Catholic church according to the full rites of the Roman Catholic church that person has to undertake instruction and become a member of the church. Should one party not wish to convert, a marriage ceremony can take place in the church but it is foreshortened from the full wedding mass. Normally, a clergyman/woman from the other denomination is also present; at least this is so in the last 30 years. My husband, who is Church of Scotand, married a Roman Catholic girl in her church. What a lot of folk haven't figured out is that no matter where a wedding takes place, the only actual legal part is the registration of the event. My guess is that if you look at the two certificates for Mary Ronan's marriages you find one of the following happened or something along those lines;
1. A registrar was present and conducted part of the ceremony.
2. The actual marriage was in a Register Office or some other place and what took place in the two churches were services of blessing.
Have you been to see the actual church registers for these events?
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Another thing that occurred to me after I posted is the denomination of any children of the marriage for those persons who do not convert, particularly in the case of men. It was expected that the person would agree that any children would be brought up in the Catholic church or if agreement could not be reached, then it was expected that girls would be brought up Catholic and boys would be Established Church or whatever denomination the other person was. As things are less regimented now, this may no longer be the case. Hopefully someone with more recent knowledge can help you. My experience is from my husband and from people of my own age (in our 50's) where there were "mixed" marriages and the boys were Church of Scotland and the girls Catholic. Sometimes the girls went to an RC primary school but for secondary education we all went the same state school. There were only two RC secondary schools in the whole area (three small counties) and up to the 1980's, they were both fee-paying. I must also say that I am from an area where sectarianism was not a major issue. My husband's upbringing was totally the opposite.
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In the 1901 census, Lucy Boland in living with her Ronan grandparents at household number 4 in Ballyandrew (Tombrack, Wexford). She and the rest of the household are Roman Catholic.
There is also another Lucy Boland who is the baby of James and Catherine Boland, residents of a house 2 in Pallis Lower (Limerick, Wexford). Maybe James is connected to Mary Ronan's deceased first husband John?
In 1911 census Lucy is still with her grandmother's household. Grandfather presumably passed away.They are residents of house 2 in Ballyandrew (Tombrack, Wexford). Head of the household is now her Uncle Myles.
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I've been loking for marriages for the Carson children. I've found 3 and they are all Register Office or Registrar Attended so you definitely have mixed denominations continuing in the family.
The first female marriage I find in a Church of England was 1940. Alice M Carson, the eldest daughter of James Joseph who married William Brownbill in Holy Trinity, Parr Mount, St Helen's.
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Hi Galloway Lass, thanks so much for responding. I couldn't reply yesterday as Roots seemed to be down for most of the evening.
Yes, it is the same James and Mary you have found and also the tree on Ancestry. James states on his marriage certificate that his father is/was a Coachman.
The surviving children were all married at RC Churches. Robert and James Joseph (my GF) at St Mary, Lowe House and Myles at St Joseph's, Peasley Cross. I know that after the 1886 marriage to my knowledge, the majority of my Carson's are Catholic and that Mary Bowland (nee Ronan) definitely was. I just don't know about James from Belfast.
I'm surprised to find that Aunty Alice was married at Holy Trinity, Parr Mount and I'll ask her sister (the last surviving of that generation) about it later today.
Thanks for the information on what was expected when a non catholic decided to marry into the faith. I'm going away now to digest.
The 1886 marriage register is available to view on Ancestry, which is a bonus.
Kit
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The 1886 marriage register is available to view on Ancestry, which is a bonus.
I can see the marriage index on Ancestry but I can't see an image of the actual certificate or banns.
What was James's father's first name and did James have any sister or brothers?
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Hi Galloway Lass, I've been trying to upload copies/excerpts from both of Mary's marriage certs but they are too large. I'll have to get my daughter to help me later.
Anyway, the certificates say:
John and Mary 2 December 1882
... Married in the St Alban's Church according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Catholic Church by Certificate by me PP Kelly then underneath PP Kelly's signature line "John J Shaw, Registrar"
James and Mary 1 November 1886
.... Married in the Our Lady of Reconciliation Chapel according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Catholic Church by me, James McKenna and then underneath James McKenna's signature line again "John J Shaw, Registrar"
Says nothing about JJ Shaw being in attendance though.
The witnesses named on the certificate for James and Mary are:
William Crotty (or Biotty) and Bridget Austin - I can find any familial relationship
James' father is Robert 'Coachman'
Also, although being 4 years apart, Mary is 27 in 1882 and 29 in 1886. Well done girl!
I have no idea on siblings as James doesn't appear in the 1881 census and none of the Carson's I can find in the 1881 or 1891 look to be related.
Kit
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Hi Kit,
Here's my thoughts. Best of luck with it, hope it turns out to be right for you.
I have found a Robert Carson, retired coachman on both 1901 and 1911 censuses. He is unfortunately a widower on both but I have identified a possible marriage for him and a birth for the younger daughter allowing for people's ages on censuses not being exact. The place is not far from Belfast, on the south side in County Down. The marriage is in 1851, so any children born pre:1864 won't have birth certificates. The family are Presbyterian so this would account for you not finding a baptism for James. You'll probably have to contact the Presbyterian church/es in the area to find out if they still hold their registers. There are 4 of them in the area - Ballywalter, Kircubbin, Carrowmore and Trinity, Greyabbey. Addresses are on Google. There is a baptism for Isabella in Greyabbey, so I'd start with that one. You can purchase full images of the birth of Isabella and the marriage of Robert Carson and Margaret Gilmore on the GRONI website. You need to register and purchase credits. You'll need 10 credits which costs £4. There's no lower limit on credits so go for 5 to start with and find out from the marriage certificate if the groom is actually a coachman. If yes, then go for the birth as well.
1911 Residents of a house 10 in Springvale (Ballywalter, Down)
Parish Ballywalter. Townland Springvale.
Surname Forename Age Sex Relation to head Religion Birthplace Occupation
Carson Robert 82 Male Head of Family (widower) Presbyterian County Down Retired Coachman
Carson Jane 55 Female Daughter Presbyterian County Down Embroiderer at Home
Carson Isabella 42 Female Daughter Presbyterian County Down Embroiderer at Home
1901 Residents of a house 17 in Springvale (Ballywalter, Down
Parish Ballywalter. Townland Springvale.
Surname Forename Age Sex Relation to head Religion Birthplace Occupation
Carson Isabella 29 Female Daughter Presbyterian Down Dressmaker
Carson Robert 73 Male Head of Family
(widower) Presbyterian Down Retired Coachman
Registration number Forename Surname Surname of partner Date of marriage Registration district
M/1851/A1/24/1/69 Margaret Gilmore Carson 18th October 1851 Ards
Registration number Forename of child Surname of child Date of birth Sex of child Mother's maiden name Registration district
U/1867/199/1024/2/449 Isabella Carson 18th November 1867 Female Gilmore Newtownards(pre-1973 Q4) sub district Greyabbey
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Wow, it's sure worth a try.
Thanks very much for your help and the time you have spent looking into this query for me. Even if it turns out not to be my family, I very much appreciate your time and effort.
Now to see what I can find out!
Kit
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Hi Galloway Lass,
Well, I took your advice and bought credits on GRONI and with the help of your searches, bought the full certificates to view. The result is:
Marriage
Robert/21/Bachelor/Labourer/Springvale
Father Robert/Labourer
Margaret/21/Spinster/unreadable/Sprinvale
Father James
Witnesses: John Gibson and William Carson
Birth
Isabella
Father Robert/Servant
Mother Margaret Carson formerly Gilmore
Annie Carson - Present at the Birth
Newtownards - Greyabbey
It was worth a try but I'm not convinced my James would say he was from Belfast if he was born closer to Newtownards or Bangor. It might be that I have to wait until the 1921 census to see if it's any more specific than 'Belfast'. That'll be my last chance at census records as he died in 1922.
I'll keep on checking for new records as they appear and hope someone with the same family interest gets in touch. I'm definitely more convinced that James wasn't Catholic which opens up more possibilities.
Kit