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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: maryjolam on Thursday 01 May 14 01:57 BST (UK)
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Hello. We are seeking information about Nigel/Noel E Thomas. (NOTE: see posts below - we now feel Noel is the correct name )
We know very little about him and have been unable to find records relating to his early life. We do have a photo, although it is not a very good one, when he was about 20 yrs old. so taken around 1900 in South Wales.
In the photo from left to right-
sitting on left Thomas Henry Lambert, in the middle Nigel/Noel E Thomas, on the right a cousin and standing a cousin.
This is what we do know:
Nigel/Noel was born around 1875 +/- a few, in South Wales or Herefordshire. He lived in or near to Beaufort Wells in Dukestown.
He was the Railway Agent at Chesterfield Market Station in Derbyshire, England around 1910.
He emigrated to Canada.
We know he worked for the Canadian Pacific Railway and the family think he was a traffic controller but that could be a wrong job description as they also thought he was a station master at Chesterfield when in reality he was the Agent in the town there.
The family know him as the "step-brother" of Thomas Henry Lambert. The parents of Thomas Henry are Decimus James Lambert and Mary Pryce. They lived at Beaufort Wells, Dukestown, now part of Tredegar, and near Ebbw Vale.
Thomas Henry was born 1876 Crickhowell in South Wales.
We also know that Thomas Henry was in touch and corresponded with Nigel during his lifetime.
Thomas Henry Lambert married Louisa ( nee Thomas) who died quite young in 1924. He remarried to Elizabeth Jeremiah known as Miah.
It is reasonable to assume that Nigel/Noel was somehow related to Louisa Thomas, but he is definitely not her brother.
Thomas and Louisa had two children - a son, also named Thomas Henry born 1902 and Mary Louise about 1904. They lived in South Wales around the Merthyr/ Tredegar areas.
Mary married Ifor Morgan. They had two children Enid 1922 and later Dan Eric.
Mary, Ivor and Enid emigrated to USA during the 1920's and Nigel/Noel went down to meet with them in Pennsylvania. Ivor and Mary soon returned to South Wales and lived at Pengam.
Later Enid emigrated to Canada and lived in Quebec, where I believe she worked for Parker Pens around 1960. She married and had a child Michael. Enid and Michael visited her mother around 1960 at Pengam. I do not know if Enid was in touch with Nigel/Noel in Canada.
If anyone can add anything to the information we have or knows of Nigel's family History. we will be grateful to hear about it.
Many thanks to all.
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I can't see him on any census with the parents - Decimus tends to change between Decimus and James on census returns but Nigel is nowhere to be seen.
Interestingly there is a N E Thomas in the Railway Employment records, born 25 December 1876 * at Broad Street Station (Canvassers and Collectors office) joining on 2 May 1887 , leaving on November 1 1887 from becoming a canvasser to a collector. Might be worth considering
do you know what the E stands for in case he goes under that?
* (edited - actually looks like 1870 not 1876 so he wasn't 10 years old)
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further record from employment records
N E Thomas, born 25 December 1870 (that's a bit better) entered into service 2 May 1887 moved from Broad Street Collector on 1 November 1898 to Nottingham Goods 9 October 1899 and then onto Chesterfield Goods in 1902
then to Swansea Goods on 1 March 1908
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Well, I'm surprised - I've spent hours searching on a couple of well known websites. And here you have uncovered quite a bit already. Thank you.
No, Off hand, I don't know what the E stands for but armed with your information and a birth date, I will go and search again in a minute and let you know.
Many Thanks.
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There is a Noel Ernest Thomas with an identical birth date (25 December 1870) in the employment records all through to 1927 (when did he go to Canada?), but born in Warwickshire
Was he Nigel or Noel or are we talking two different people with extremely similar histories?
I can't see a Nigel E Thomas on any of the birth records, census or passenger lists. Noel however appears right up to 1911 (married, children etc) . Noel's records have him as a Dist. Trf Agent (district traffic agent? - might fit with your family thinking he was a traffic controller) in 1914. Noel however dies in the UK in 1934 (do you know if your Nigel died in Canada or if he could have come back here?)
for him to be a step brother he would be no blood relation to either Decimus or Mary in the true sense of the word 'step brother' to Thomas- he would be a half brother if either Decimus or Mary was his mother or father
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I don't know. The Nigel came from a railway society who kindly looked for him and told me that Nigel E Thomas was at Chesterfield around 1910.
However, I've been looking since my last post and cannot find anything, so I'll try Noel. Thanks
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Ok, so Noel E Thomas is a railway clerk at Hampstead London in 1891.
His father is John Thomas and Mother Mary Ann Stonguard. both born Oswestry, Salop in England.
At this stage I cannot discount Nigel being Noel.
There is no 1901 or 1911 census for Noel but he could be on a Railway Census record.
I will have to research John Thomas to see if he is related to Louisa's Father who is also called John Thomas. Perhaps it is a previous marriage. It may take me a little while to check this.
However, we know Nigel/ or Noel emigrated and lived in Canada and was there during the 1920's.
Thanking you.
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There is no 1901 or 1911 census for Noel but he could be on a Railway Census record.
Family Search free indexes for Wembley, Middlesex, England. 1911
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XW4Z-J1P
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XW4Z-J1R
Family Search for West Bridgford St Giles Nottinghamshire 1901
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XSNC-45Y
Noel Thomas 30 Railway Canvasser. Born Attleborough Warwickshire.
Annie Thomas 28 Born Hampstead London.
Dorothy Thomas 2 Born Hampstead London.
Sandra
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Thankyou Sandra.
I searched at a well known site but not this one. I couldn't find it. so thank you.
On reflection, I think Noel is probably the correct name. He is in all the right places .
If I can leave my request for Canada please and in the meantime I will research Noel's family.
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Ok, so Noel E Thomas is a railway clerk at Hampstead London in 1891.
His father is John Thomas and Mother Mary Ann Stonguard. both born Oswestry, Salop in England.
The parish records for Noel's marriage indicate his father was John Thomas with the occupation listed as "clerk of the holy orders" which matches the 1881 census entry. However, on the census image it is Mary Ann Stronguard, not Stonguard. There is a marriage in Oswestry for John Thomas in the 3rd quarter of 1854 that has a Mary Ann Stronguard Rogers (Stronguard is mistranscribed in the FreeBMD). John and Mary Ann are on the England census together in 1861, 1871 and 1881. She is listed as a widow in 1891.
I'm having my doubts that Noel Thomas is the same person as Nigel. So far there seems to be no proof that he was ever in Wales. He was in Nottinghamshire on the 1891 and 1901 England census. His daughter Dorothy was born 11 Sep 1898 and baptized 3 Oct 1898 according to the Hampstead Emmanuel parish records (same church where Noel was married). Other than Noel being a railway clerk and about the right age, there is nothing about him that matches up with the initial information you posted (where he was born, emigrating to Canada, etc).
Jacquie
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This the correct spelling and full name of Noel's Mother taken from her Baptism and Marriage documents.
First Name Mary Ann Strangward
Last Name Rogers
When I posted the first request for some help, I knew very little. That he was in Canada and travelled to Pennsylvania is correct and direct from the person he met with there.
The information Ruth posted helped a lot as did Sandra's. Your information also adds new facts to the file, - for which I thank you Jackie.
I am researching all the new information and believe that the name Nigel was a mistake on the part of the person who looked up a record for me. I am following a line from my great grandmother back which is leading in the right direction. I have more research to do before I can say for sure where these two lines may connect up.
In the meantime I had a look at documents relating to Noel's line and family tree which do place him in Swansea, South Wales around the turn of the century.
There are documents relating to emigration to Canada in at least two different periods and further documents for an Annie Thomas and a Dorothy Thomas, of the right age and birth place travelling to Canada and from Canada to Pennsylvania and Michigan. It may take some time to verify if these belong to us.
By posting under Canada I hoped someone might recognize some of the names and /or the image in the photo and be able to shed some light on Noel's family history.
The information received has been most hopeful and may well have opened up a brick wall in the line of my great grandmother. Thank you everyone for helping.
Have a lovely day.
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Are the documents that put him in Wales in the name Noel or Nigel or give initials? Do you have any details for when Annie and Dorothy emigrated (Canadian passenger list, ship name, etc).
There are UK railway records showing Noel's pay and the date he received raises. As was said, he entered service on 2 May 1882. He received a raise in salary on 1 Jan 1914, again on 1 Jan 1917, then on 1 Aug 1919 and finally on 1 Jul 1921. He was supposed to receive another raise on 1 Jun 1926 but it wasn't carried off because he was off sick. There are other notations that say "Sick 10/7/1926", "Half pay from 8/2/1927" and "Retired 7/6/1927". There is no indication of a break in service.
Jacquie
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Hi Jackie, Thank you for your interest.
He visited the Morgan family in Pennsylvania between 1927 (when the husband went over) and 1933 (when the family returned to Wales.) and I am not able to know more than that.
You have seen more records about Noel than I have due to the fact that the subscription I have doesn't run rail records.
Below are details of records. NOTE: Swansea is in South Wales not far from Cardiff and places mentioned previously, especially with rail connections.
further record from employment records
entered into service 2 May 1887 at Broad Street Station (Canvassers and Collectors office) in London? Age 17
moved on November 1 1887 age 18 from becoming a canvasser to a collector.
moved from Broad Street Collector on 1 November 1898 age 28 to
Nottingham Goods 9 October 1899 age 29 and then
onto Chesterfield Goods in 1902 age 32
then to Swansea Goods on 1 March 1908 age 38
NOTE: I have seen a photo of him in his work overalls taken at Chesterfield and can confirm this is the same person as in my photo (posted)
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It is possible there is no relation between the two families and referring to Nigel/Noel as a step-brother was just a joke that took on a life of its own since his father had the same name as Thomas' wife's father.
By the way, there is a death listed in the FreeBMD for Dorothy Muriel Jefferis whose birth date was 11 Sep 1898. She died in Oxford in Sep 1975. There is a marriage in the FreeBMD for Dorothy M Thomas and Victor J Jefferis in Reading, Berkshire in the 1st quarter of 1932. Noel's daughter was named Dorothy Muriel and that birth date matches the one listed in the parish records.
If this family came to North America after Noel retired then at least Dorothy would have had to have returned by 1932 which narrows the dates of travel even more. And having looking at the passenger lists at Ancestry I still can't find any matches between 1927 and 1932 for any of the three.
Jacquie
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Thank you Jackie for the information. Appreciated, as is the time you have kindly given.
I think we need to move on from Nigel. This was obviously a mistake on the part of the person who looked up original information for me some time ago.
This mistake is confirmed because I have the photo of Noel with my T.H. Lambert and have seen the photo of Noel when he was at Chesterfield in 1908.
This is the same person.
This person is now known to be Noel Ernest Thomas.
It is also sure that Noel was in Canada and travelled to Pennsylvania between 1927 and 1933 due to the personal contact of family members (now deceased) with him.
That his relationship was a joke is always a possibility but my experience tells me that somewhere in all this is the grain of truth that will reveal the connection between families which is closer than just friends.
Many thanks.
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If that Dec 1870 date of birth is correct,then this is probably his birth reg.
Births Mar 1871
Thomas Noel Ernest Nuneaton 6d 425
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Here's the family in 1871 living at The Vicarage in Nuneaton.
John Thomas 48 vicar of Attleborough b Oswestry
Mary A S Thomas 36 wife b "
Pendon C H Thomas 9 son b Nuneaton
Cecil Thomas 6 " "
Benton B Thomas 4 dau b "
Noel E Thomas 3 Months son b "
Gorgina Cooke 19 all servants.
Mary Daner 18
Anne Gilliver 20
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Thank you Carol. yes, this is the family of Noel with some mis-transcriptions in the census records.
This is his baptism and I've corrected the spelling in the census below.
Note: I have followed his life through all records, and recorded them . I just wanted to discover more about his time in Canada, whether he worked for Canadian Pacific as the family say and what happened to him and whether there is family in Canada. perhaps someone might recognize him from the posts.
Noël Ernest Thomas, "England, Warwickshire Parish Registers, 1538-1900"
Name: Noël Ernest Thomas
Date of birth: 25th December 1870
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 24 Jan 1871
Event Place: Attleborough, Warwickshire, England
Gender:
Age:
Marital Status:
Father's Name: John Thomas
Mother's Name: Mary Anne Strangward Thomas
GS Film number: 1067538
Digital Folder Number: 4292064
Image Number: 00717
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Name: Noel Ernest Thomas
Event Type: Birth Registration
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year: 1871
Registration District: Nuneaton
County: Warwickshire
Event Place: Nuneaton, Warwickshire, England
Mother's Maiden Name (not available before 1911 Q3):
Volume: 6D
Page: 425
Line Number: 70
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Head John Thomas Oswestry, Shropshire
Wife Mary A S Thomas Oswestry, Shropshire
daughter: Melicent Richardson Thomas Christening Date: 04 Jul 1855
daughter Gertrude Marian 1859 28/6 bap 21/8/1859 Stockingford = Nuneaton /spinster
Son Penson Charles Thomas 1862 Nuneaton, Warwickshire /vicar Clent
Son Cecil Strangward 1864 Nuneaton Warwickshire /Navy/Vicar -last placement Bradford
Daughter Bertha Beatrice 1867 Nuneaton Warwickshire /spinster
Son Noel Ernest 1870Nuneaton, Warwickshire Railways/married
with thanks
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These are the sailing /immigration records for the morgan family, who Noel (travelled from Canada to Pennsylvania ) met with between 1929 and 1933.
PLEASE NOTE: Only information relating to the American/Canadian connections is being sought. It is our understanding that Noel worked for the Canadian pacific Railway Company.
We do already have on file the UK records for the family below. Many thanks to everyone.
Mauretania, sailing from Southampton to New York, arriving 22 September 1927.
Ivor Morgan, age 29, married, Fitter, born Tredegar, last permanent address N. Tredegar. Wife: Mrs. M. Morgan, Glao(?)dir Bedwellty Road, New Tredegar. Final destination: Freeland, PA. Going to Cousin, W.H. Kess or Kees, 1273 Birbeck St., Freeland, PA. 5'6" Fresh complexion, Blue eyes.
Sailing from Southampton to New York, arriving 18 October 1929 on board the Aquitania:
Mary Louise Morgan, age 25, h'wife, born Tirphil, she was 5'4", dark complexion, brown hair, hazel eyes. Her father was T.H. Lambert, Alstonvilla, Craig Y Bedr.New Tredegar
Enid Mary, age 7, scholar, born New Tredegar.
They were joining husband: Mr. Ivor Morgan, 125, Highland, Freeland, Lyzernectt, PA
And, info from America:
1930 Philadelphia Census
Ivor Morgan, age 32, married at age 23(?) (image is a bit blurred), born Wales as were parents, immigrated 1927, Repair(?) Mach, Mach Co.
Mary, age 26, married at age 17(?), born Wales as was father, mother born England, immigrated 1929
Enid, age 8, born Wales, immigrated 1925(?)
Fairhill Street, #2731?
Ship Aquitania
Cunard White Star Line
New York -Southampton
Arrived 24 Mar 1933
Ivor Morgan 35 Machinist
Mary Louise Morgan 29 Housewife
Enid Morgan 11 scholar
UK address Pentwyn House, Cumsyfiog, New tredegar
Country of last permanent residence USA
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Mauretania, sailing from Southampton to New York, arriving 22 September 1927.
Ivor Morgan, age 29, married, Fitter, born Tredegar, last permanent address N. Tredegar. Wife: Mrs. M. Morgan, Glao(?)dir Bedwellty Road, New Tredegar. Final destination: Freeland, PA. Going to Cousin, W.H. Kess or Kees, 1273 Birbeck St., Freeland, PA. 5'6" Fresh complexion, Blue eyes.
Ivor wasn't on that ship. On the incoming New York passenger list there is a line through his name and a note on the bottom of the page that says he did not embark.
He was on the Berengaria which departed from Southampton and arrived in New York on 18 Nov 1927. He lists his father on the passenger list instead of his wife but the other information is the same. Ivor's given name was misspelled on the passenger but a printed correction was made however the transcription uses the incorrectly spelled typed name in the database. I have entered a correction.
How old was the person who gave you the information about Noel going to see the Morgans in the US? How old were they when Noel was supposed to have visited? Did they say whether Noel was alone or did he have his family with him? Is it possible they confused him with someone else or confused when/where he visited. I have tried searching every variation I can think of (including using his daughter's married name) and I don't see any evidence that Noel Thomas, his wife and/or daughter were ever in North America.
Jacquie
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Thank you Jackie.
The person who gave the information is Mary Morgan, Ivor's wife. As she was present at the time, it is unlikely to be a false report.
I don't have any other information. Many thanks.
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I would just like to say Thankyou to everyone who has helped with this research. It has been very helpful and appreciated.
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The person who gave the information is Mary Morgan, Ivor's wife. As she was present at the time, it is unlikely to be a false report.
When did you get this information from her? The reason I ask is you don't seem to have gotten a given name from her since you had Nigel from a look-up and Noel from this thread. I'm not trying to be negative - I just want to make sure we have the right person.
Jacquie
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A possible passenger sighting .....
There is a Mr Noel Thomas on the Lancastria sailing from Liverpool to Halifax, Boston and New York on 09 Mar 1929. Unfortunately, there is no other info given as to age, destination, etc.
PB
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Thank you! There are very few Noel Thomas' so I will follow this up and see if I can find a bit more.
Very grateful.
Extra note to clarify for Jacquie in Canada
I will just repeat again- to clear up any confusion
that the Nigel name was a mistake on the part of a kind looker-uper some years ago.
And that I have seen a photo of Noel taken at Chesterfield Station where he worked for a while and he is the same person as in my photo.
So this person I am seeking info about is NOEL ERNEST THOMAS. This is correct.
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"It is reasonable to assume that Nigel/Noel was somehow related to Louisa Thomas,"
It is NOT reasonable to ASSUME anything.
Particularly as Thomas is a rather common family name.
Particularly in Wales.
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Thank you for your reply.
I repeat my thanks to everyone who has participated, some information was gained, some was not but even this helped a lot because it has eliminated areas of possible interest.
I am grateful to everyone who has helped but am finding this particular thread difficult and I think any inference to false representation will be offensive to family who may later find these posts online - because they will come up on any google for many years to come.
I do thank everyone for helping, but I think this thread needs to end.
Thanking you all.
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No one has said anything about false representation. Memories play tricks on people especially as they age. Family stories should be taken with more than a grain of salt because they can be wrong.
Rather than your clarification, I would have preferred answers to my questions. Did Mary give you the name of the person who visited because you didn't have the given name of Noel until this thread. How old was she when she told you about this visit. Did she say he was alone or had family with him. Who told you Noel had emigrated to Canada and had worked for the Canadian Pacific Railway?
Jacquie
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Saw your photo and recognised this man instantly. We didn't know this photo existed so thank you for posting it!
To explain, Seth Suter born 1846 in Zeals(north Dorset) moved to Wales and Married Elvira Lambert.
ELVIRA BORN 1853 BEDWELTY.
1881 CENSUS LIVED AT PENMARK.
LIVED IN PENMARK SIRHOWY IN 1911 WIDOWED WITH SONS JOHN AND SAMUEL. and a grandson, Evan Williams 13. ELVIRA DIED 1935 3RD QTR. AGED 82.
They had 7 children one of whom was Henry Suter, Henry Married Deborah Jones.
Attached is a Photo of Henry and Deborah Suter, Possibly on their wedding day.
This is definitely Henry Suter as I have His youngest son with me now.(he's 91yrs young)
Although I haven't checked it out, it would seem logical that these are indeed his cousins, maybe noel/nigel is a cousin from another branch. Hope this creates a new more positive thread for you.
Penmark is only traceable on old maps its gone now it was about a 15 minute walk away from dukestown close to rassa tramway.
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Thank you very much Geoff. I am very glad you found the photo. I am sending you a personal message re the family.
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Geoff will not be able to use the PM system until he has posted another message here.
Even a quick okay thanks will do Geoff..........and welcome to Rootschat ;D
Regards
Carol
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Thank you Geoff. I am delighted you found the photo and were able to positively identify Henry in the photo. I have sent you a personal message with some information.
As Carol has said in her post, just make another general post here and you should be able to read the personal message (PM) in your inbox.
Welcome to Rootschat. It is a great site with many really helpful people. I do hope your experience is very rewarding.
have a lovely day Geoff.
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To 'geoff63
Saw your message with Noel E Thomas but I am interested in your reply re Suters 23 July 2015.
Related to Henry Suter and would like to enter into dialogue re his family history.
Robin Suter
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Hi Robin and welcome to Rootschat.
Sadly Geoff hasn't been back online since he posted here back in July,although as long as he hasn't changed his email address,should be notified that we have posted here.........fingers crossed!
Carol
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Thank you Carol. Did you originate the Henry Photo and if so have you got the original..
Robin Suter
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Welcome to RootsChat Robin :)
Just to let you know that we have notified Geoff or your reply. Geoff if you are reading this message and have forgotten your password just click on the "Contact Support" button at the bottom of the first page for some help.
Regards
Sarah
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Hi, Robin and Sarah.
Haven't been doing much in the family tree recently.
photo posted is of Henry and Deborah suter, my wifes grandparents'.