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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: vabbott on Tuesday 29 April 14 10:56 BST (UK)
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Hi there
any one know if these records are available on line
Ronnie
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With Ancestry in the London Metropolitan Archives Collection or in person at the LMA.
They are catalogued as St Peter, Northchurch Terrace Hackney not Islington.
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thanks for that I will try Ancestry first
Ronnie :)
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I was actually looking for a marriage between John Jenkins and Ellen Gooch He says on his settlement papers at the workhouse in 1911 that he married there about 20 year ago
Blowed if I can find it ??? but thanks again
Ronnie
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Hi Ronnie
When was he born and what was his father's name?
Dawn
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from BMD This is possibly the bride ,
Marriages Sep 1891
Gooch Ellen Constance Hackney 1b 1075
Jepson Alice Batty Hackney 1b 1075
Kemp William Hackney 1b 1075
Just seen a few online trees that have Ellen Constance Gooch marrying William Kemp , so not the one the OP wanted
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Hi Ronnie
When was he born and what was his father's name?
Dawn
Hi Dawn,
Thanks for coming back to me The only details I can be sure of are John David Jenkins born 28/08/1892 at 31 Albert Road Hackney son of John Jenkins we think born 1872 and Ellen gooch b 1871 which is the couple I am trying to trace
Regards
Ronnie
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I notice on those settlement papers he says he's a widower , this is possibly Ellens death
Deaths Mar 1906
GOOCH Ellen 27 Marylebone 1a 353
Can't see John or the children (Doris/Dorothy or Francis T ) on 1911, the 2 he mentions on the papers
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Hi Jan
That looks like they didn't marry then if she is a gooch
Perhaps that's why he said about 20 years ago lol
Will try again for the children under gooch as well
Ronnie
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from BMD This is possibly the bride ,
Marriages Sep 1891
Gooch Ellen Constance Hackney 1b 1075
Jepson Alice Batty Hackney 1b 1075
Kemp William Hackney 1b 1075
for info. the missing male name for that page is Frederick STEADMAN
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/2DB4-8Y9
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I found the family in 1901, John is named as John Evan Jenkins.
One child, Dorothy Ellen, is registered here
Mar 1899
Jenkins Dorothy Ellen Hackney 1b 577
based on an online tree at Ancestry
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Francis Thomas is here
Jun 1901
Jenkins Francis Thomas Edmonton 3a 495
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Hello again
Thanks so much for your efforts . They are definitely the family but just cant trace mum and dad deaths
These things are sent to try us aren't they I will keep on looking
Ronnie
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I found the family in 1901, John is named as John Evan Jenkins
They are definitely the family but just cant trace mum and dad deaths
Could this be the father's death entry?
John E Jenkins age 58 (1863) Mar 1921 Hackney Vol 1b Pg 552
This could be his birth entry
John Evan Jenkins Jenkins Sep 1862 Bethnal Gn vol 1c pg 268
Checked the original typed entry and it reads JENKINS John Evan Jenkins
Do you know his parents names?
There's this christening entry
John Evan Jenkins born 28 Jun 1862 Bpt. 27 Jul 1862 St Matthew Bethnal Green
Father: John Jenkins Mother: Louisa Matilda
Other baptism with those parents names are
Louisa Matilda born 22 Nov 1859 bpt 25 Dec St Mary Whitechapel
William David born 9 Oct 1864 bpt 30 Oct St Matthew Bethnal Green
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thank you so much for the time you have spent. I do appreciate it. Perhaps if we get that death certificate there may be some clues on there. Worth a shot isn't it
I found a Francis Thomas when I looked at the immigrations to see if he had been sent out to Canada or somewhere I did find one who was deported so I hope it wasn't him Will investigate further :)
Regards
Ronnie
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Now that I am back in the country, I would like to thank you all for your suggestions following Ronnie's original posting, when she was trying to help me.
To add a little fuel to the fire, there was a letter waiting for me from Barnardo's, saying that little Francis Thomas Jenkins had been shipped off to Canada in 1913, and was in Dashwood, in 1919, using the name Fred. No further info there. I so hope that he had a happy life....
They couldn't give me more info because I wasn't the direct descendant, but implied that the aforementioned Ellen Constance Gooch who married William Kemp in 1891 was the mother.This then begs the question of my grandfather's father, as he was born in 1892. Presumably Ellen left the marital home pre his birth. The father on his birth certificate is named as John Evan Jenkins. One Jenkins . I may never know whether I am of Jenkins or Kemp descent! ;)
In 1911 I have found Dorothy Ellen as Doris Woodruff. She was supposedly taken in by her aunt who was Annie nee Jenkins. An Annie Jenkins married Woodruff, but I haven't managed to link Annie with my John Evan Jenkins yet. Still working on that one . ...
All this help has thrown up new leads to explore, and I am so grateful to you all. Thank you :D
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To add a little fuel to the fire, there was a letter waiting for me from Barnardo's, saying that little Francis Thomas Jenkins had been shipped off to Canada in 1913, and was in Dashwood, in 1919, using the name Fred. No further info there. I so hope that he had a happy life....
They couldn't give me more info because I wasn't the direct descendant, but implied that the aforementioned Ellen Constance Gooch who married William Kemp in 1891 was the mother.
This then begs the question of my grandfather's father, as he was born in 1892.
Presumably Ellen left the marital home pre his birth.
The father on his birth certificate is named as John Evan Jenkins. One Jenkins .
I may never know whether I am of Jenkins or Kemp descent! ;)
Mmm.....
Is Ellen on two censuses in the same year?
and
Did she have John D JENKINS 28 Aug 1892 and then approx. 7 months later
have another child Jack R KEMP in Mar qtr 1893 ???
Ellen Constance Kemp nee Gooch age 40 is on the 1901 census with husband & child
Ellen Jenkins age 27 is on the 1901 census with husband John Evan & 4 children
1901 RG13; Piece: 1263; Folio: 92; Page: 12
22 Hyde Square
John Evan JENKINS 32 Hackney
Ellen 27 dittoed as born Hackney
John D 8
Augustus C 5
Dorothy E 2
Francis T 12 mths Edmonton
birth entry
John David Jenkins Oct-Nov-Dec 1892 Hackney Vol 1b P 471
1901 RG13; Piece: 1224; Folio: 123; Page: 2
9 Sheldon Road
William KEMP 36 occ clerk
Ellen C 40 Islington London
Jack R 8 Willensden
Dorothy B Robertson niece 15 Kennington London
birth entry
Jack Reginald Kemp Jan-Feb-Mar 1893 Hendon Volume: 3a Page: 210
According to the London Electoral Register
William & Ellen Constance KEMP with living at 33 West End Lane
1918/19/20/21
Ellen Constance Kemp died 31 Mar 1938
Administration 12 May 1938 to Jack R Kemp Sales manager
In 1911 I have found Dorothy Ellen as Doris Woodruff.
She was supposedly taken in by her aunt who was Annie nee Jenkins. An Annie Jenkins married Woodruff, but I haven't managed to link Annie with my John Evan Jenkins yet.
Still working on that one . ...
this looks to be Dorothy's birth entry
Dorothy Ellen Jenkins Jan-Feb-Mar 1899 Hackney Volume:1b Page: 577
did she marry?
Dorothy Ellen Street died age 78 Born 17 Feb 1899
Date of Registration: Jun 1977 Hitchin Hertfordshire
Volume: 10 Page: 0507
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The birth certificate for John David Jenkins does it give mother Ellen Gooch's
middle name as Constance?
from the 1901 census Ellen Jenkins born c 1874 dittoed as born Hackney
I'm wondering if she maybe Ellen MARY Gooch
Ellen MARY Gooch born 1874 Haverhill Suffolk granddaughter of Mary PECK
1881 RG11; Piece: 1821; Folio: 70; Page: 17
and Ellen age 17 with her grandmother Mary PECK
1891 RG12; Piece: 1435; Folio: 44; Page: 10
birth entry
Ellen Mary Gooch Jul-Aug-Sep 1873 Risbridge Volume: 4a Page: 433
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Mmm...how complicated- nothing new there!
I had 2 sheets of paper from Barnardo's: the first a letter about Francis Jenkins who went to Canada.
The 2nd piece of paper was a printout from a free bmd search. No letter or notes with this, just the search printout for Ellen Constance Gooch, with the Jepson and Kemp surnames on there!It is difficult to believe that the piece of paper ended up in the letter by chance...but at the same time, it is difficult to make sense of the whole picture.
Ellen Jenkins formerly Gooch is on both John David's birth certificate and Dorothy Ellen's. Another child Augustus Charles ( or CA) was born in 1894.
The Street surname is correct for Dorothy.
Aaaahhhhh! ???
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Re: previous post for Ellen Mary Gooch looks as if she married 1903 Risbridge, Suffolk, England
male names
Frank Birch
James Shipp
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/26QC-41N
and Ellen M Gooch age 27 on the 1901 census RG13; Piece: 1738; Folio: 93; Page: 1
with Frank Birch and grandmother Mary Peck
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Mmm...how complicated- nothing new there!
I had 2 sheets of paper from Barnardo's: the first a letter about Francis Jenkins who went to Canada.
The 2nd piece of paper was a printout from a free bmd search. No letter or notes with this, just the search printout for Ellen Constance Gooch, with the Jepson and Kemp surnames on there!It is difficult to believe that the piece of paper ended up in the letter by chance...but at the same time, it is difficult to make sense of the whole picture.
Ellen Jenkins formerly Gooch is on both John David's birth certificate and Dorothy Ellen's. Another child Augustus Charles ( or CA) was born in 1894.
The Street surname is correct for Dorothy.
Aaaahhhhh! ???
Hi Annabel
I bet you wish you stayed in Spain now don't you ;D However we will get to the bottom of this mystery Just hang in their or my names not Jenkins/Kemp/Cobley and all lol
To add another hope to this I have discovered today in my Local Library studies are Directories for
Essex and Middlesex I had a quick flip through but no hackney or Shoreditch but there were lots in Tottenham So if you get an address or occupation I can go back and have another look
Ronnie :)
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So she is probably out of the frame then....
It is rather frustrating. Barnardo's possibly have a little more info, but can't disclose it, because I am not a direct descendant of Francis .
I think my best option might be to go back up to the LMA and see if there is anything more in any Shoreditch Union records that might be there. Francis was in there for 2 years, probably with his father.
I hope that the marriage certificate arrives in the next week. It would be wonderful if john J happened to be a witness. One has to dream!
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Haha....yes I've just bought a ticket back Ronnie!
I always thought that the story couldn't get more complicated than for my parents!
How wrong was I?! ;D
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Thanks so much Ronnie. I will bear that in mind....
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posting whilst red writing
For info. baptism
Jack Reginald Kemp born 20th January 1893
Baptism Date: 7 May 1893 St Mary Kilburn
Father's Name: William Kemp occ Clerk
Mother's name: Ellen Constance Kemp
You probably have this
John David Jenkins Age: 5 Birth Date: 28 Aug 1892
School: Wilton Road School Hackney
Admission Date: 11 Jul 1898
Parent: John Evan
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Following on from Ladyhawk's work it really looks to me as though Ellen Constance Gooch is likely to be a red herring.
She was born in Islington in 1856* and all the available evidence suggests that she stayed with William Kemp after their 1891 marriage, having one son Jack Reginald in 1893, as has already been found. Her death was registered in Willesden in 1938 aged 82.
*though she was later shy about her true age, it appears.
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Thanks Ladyhawk; I did pick that up, but it's always useful to have it confirmed though!
Yes avm, I think that you are probably correct although I don't then understand why it was included in the letter. Perhaps that was an error. Perhaps the person responding to the enquiry decided to search out of interest, and then that piece of paper just got caught up with the letter.
These things do happen, and this seems a more likely scenario than having an 'Ellen' running between two families!
I might apply for the other 2 childrens' birth certificates, in the hope that there might be a little more info.
Beyond that, and another trip to the LMA, I can't think of anything else.
There is only one census where Ellen is there for sure, and that is the 1901C.
I have sometimes wondered whether the birth place is correct, as my grandfather ended up in Colchester and then Felixstowe . I wondered if there was a reason for him to head in that general direction ....
Thank you everyone!
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I had 2 sheets of paper from Barnardo's: the first a letter about Francis Jenkins who went to Canada.
You probably have all this info. about Francis but posting just in case..............
Francis Jenkins Age: 13
Departure 6 Aug 1913
Port of Departure: Liverpool
Date of Arrival: 14 Aug 1913 Vessel: Tunisian
Port of Arrival: Quebec
Under the auspices of Mc Phersons Homes in the charge of Mrs McPherson Merry
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z7x/
Marchmont was the given name to three of Miss Annie MacPherson homes in Bellville
. Annie's sisters Rachel MERRY & Louisa
.
Researching your home child
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z7y/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z7z/
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Thanks so much- I didn't have anything more than the vessel and date.
That's really great!
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Thanks so much- I didn't have anything more than the vessel and date.
That's really great!
Told you things would look up.................Have a good day :)
Ronnie
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You too! 8)
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personally I think Barnardos researchers withold too much info & don't always give out the correct info anyway...One poor lady went to her grave thinking she was someone she was not!!! Likely a guess as this person was trying to do.
There is a Fred Jenkins who looks to have been a Home Child...a farm labourer in 1921 Ontario, but the dates don't match up ( Plus Dashwood is in Huron County, but the lads were sometimes moved around ) .. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01brm/ ( hit image to see more)
(If that information was correct that he'd changed his name...or had they found this lad and said it was he?)
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Thank you so much! I think that there is a reasonable chance that this is him. I will investigate more. 2 days ago I found him as Fred on the 1911C. It was obvious really; I just hadn't taken on board that he had probably always been called Fred.
Although the dates aren't quite right, there may be a clue for me in the 1908, as perhaps this is the year his mother died, the trigger for his eventual move to Canada. More to work on.....
I have had both very good and very average responses from Barnardos in my time......!
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I have some doubts about the lad being yours, although it's true the lads often played with information just for the fun of it, I think.... so good to keep an open mind, just don't pin your hat to anyone yet until you get some real proof.
This marriage of a Francis in Ontario had no parents listed, nor places of birth, and I could not see them on 1921 to help with more info, so darn, but will post anyway in case more turns up.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/278B-VTW
There is this B.C. death which also is interesting if you have the birth date to compare?
To move or retire to the beautiful West Coast was very common.
Frederick Francis Jenkins Death New Westminster, British Columbia (resided Burnaby)
13 May 1976 Age 76 Birth Date 28 Feb 1900, England
his daughter gave the information, Father Jenkins...nothing else known about parents
Spouse 's name Bernice Johanna Zacharias .... More on image:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12699-110249-33?cc=1538285
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Thank you so much for your helpful suggestions.
I couldn't find a suitable death last night(!) , so 1908 may well be a red herring, but I live in hope :D .
The marriage wouldn't fit in with the previous 1921 C, unless recorded inaccurately, so those 2 are probably different people, as you suspected.
The death is maybe more promising. From Barnardos I have the birth as 28th Jan 1900, so definitely time to send for the b certificate!
Do you think that the daughter's name is M A Jenser?
Thanks for helping.
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The thing that is tough is that we do not have all records available, and if he did move to another Province, we do not have access to each one. ( Privacy laws in each Province makes searching in the 20th century a lot harder) But it would maybe be a good idea to get all the birth certs in case there is another clue in there.
I am giving you what I find (as making & keeping notes for all searches was a nightmare...) but of course they may all be red herrings...
re: daughter's surname...I think it is more likely Jensen
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I am just so grateful for your help, even if all suggestions are red herrings.
One person on ancestry has Bernice in their tree, so I hope that they will respond to a message, even though there is very little in the tree.
Facebook has been very useful to me in the past for living relatives, so I can feel a little 'session' coming up!
If I can help you with anything in sussex uk, do say.
Thanks again,
Annabel.
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Hi there.
The parents of the Fred Jenkins who married Jennie Russell are Alexander Jenkins and Mabel Young so doesn't look like he is your man.
PB
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Thanks for finding that for Annabel, PolarBear! Likely the marriage entry I found on the FHS site with no parents was banns as I checked and it came up as no parents March 17th, but i just looked again using names of parents & they are listed again as a marriage marked April 2. I apologize for not having been more thorough and having missed that
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Thank you both for your help. All information is useful, even if in the negative!
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Birth certificate:
D of b 22/2/1901, Edmonton, UK.
Different to info from Barnardo's, but same person.
Different to previous death notification....
???
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Sorry if I get lost easily...what was the full name on the birth a1emslie ?
nevermind I answered my own question, that was Francis Thomas...
Why is Barnardos handing out wrong information? Now I wonder if he really changed his name to Fred, or had they just recently found what I'd found and said it was he?
We have one lady on rootschat who's ancestor was given the wrong info and so sent for the wrong birth cert when she applied for pension. Now who wants contrived information? Another gal asked three times for her ancestor's info and was sent more info each time...why wasn't it all released right away?
Are they seeking to quickly appease rather than search for the proper information?
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I think that they are probably submerged with work sadly......
It can get frustrating though!
No, Francis was Fred in the UK in 1911. Seems strange to have been Fred and not Frank. Wish I could turn back the clock and find out why!
I so wish that he had a happy life...