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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: AndySul on Monday 28 April 14 14:30 BST (UK)
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I’m researching three brothers who served in WW1
Maurice Sullivan - Wiltshire Regiment 27588 (grandfather - hence the research)
Joseph Sullivan - Kings Royals Rifles A-3237
Thomas Sullivan
From Maurice, prior to his own passing, we were informed verbally that Joseph and Thomas were both KIA during WW1
Service medals for Maurice and Joseph were passed along the family line, ending up with myself. These medals gave service numbers which in turn enabled me to research their military backgrounds, ie where available I've secured medal cards, military wills, service records and death details.
Where I'm struggling, and despite my best efforts, is without a service number to connect the third brother to any military WW1 service - which I'm keen to do for obvious reasons.
Recently I acquired a photograph of Thomas in uniform – I have my suspicions to what Regiment the uniform relates but this appears to go against where they were all born, which was Southwark, London
Can anyone 100% confirm which Regiment the uniform relates to?
Depending upon what the answer is to the uniform I’m likely to come back with further questions so please bear with me
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag374/AndySul/scan0002-002_zpsa2502c51.jpg)
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Could be Royal Fusiliers but not 100%
Ady
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I think it's the Royal Scots Fusiliers. looks like his collar badges are that of exploding grenades,and Im pretty sure he is wearing trews.
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Yep i agree the trews are distinctive
Badge looks like a fusilier but uniform looks like a Royal Scots one ??
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Agree with the others looks RSFus.
There's 2 MIC's. but just one KIA.
Pte. Thomas Sullivan 11th. R.S.Fus. no.11085.
Died 26/3/1918.
Went to France Dec. 1914 which indicates he was a regular soldier. As you can see from the photo so is your Thomas.
From the CWGC Thomas was with the 2nd. Batt. & residence at the time was Monmouth.
Could this be him.?
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Many thanks to all those that posted, pounding the keys my side hitting Google / various search websites etc as you post.
Saw the only KIA Thomas Sullivan RSFus was 11085 and that the Soldiers died in the Great war database lists him as resident in Newport, Monmouth (CWGC offers no personalized info that I can see) I can't find any family history which draws him over to Newport - His parents, as did his brothers, resided in Southwark, London all their life and he's on the 1901 census as living with them - age putting him as being born around 1893.
However, he disappears from the family residence for the 1911 census, indicating he had moved out, to where is not known (photo on back states Thomas and finance so could have moved out to marry)- so potentially it could be Newport but for the life of me I can't see why he would have ended up over there. Furthermore, from what I can see the database says 11085 was born in Newport as well as resided there and that they enlisted in Glasgow, so unless they are applying poetic license whoever 11085 is, they are well travelled.
That all said, can’t rule out 11085 and he’s the best lead I have at the moment as we can now state Thomas is in a RSFus uniform – exactly how he got into it is something I guess I will have to try and figure out my end.
Likewise, I suppose a big question to consider is did he stay RSFus till his death – if he did then it is very likely he is 11085. If he shifted Corps, which I guess there is no way of knowing without a service record, I may never get to the bottom of this
Jim, you mentioned ‘Went to France Dec. 1914 (which I see is from his MIC) which indicates he was a regular soldier. As you can see from the photo so is your Thomas’ When you make reference to him being a regular solider by his photo, is this opposed to being conscripted / volunteering early post outbreak of war ??
Also… was thinking of trying the Western Front Association for 11085s pension records as if they exist they may be able to confirm one way or another if he’s the one I’m looking for – would you advise and can you think of anything else I could try
Also, Also…. Whilst I’m thinking about it – as mentioned, we have the medals for the other two brothers but not Thomas – Would I be right in thinking if single goes to parents, if married to spouse – which if correct may lend weight to them getting married, hence why his parents never passed them down the family line as the ‘spouse’ had them.
Many thanks to everyone whose replied and anyone else that assists me with this matter
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He's a regular soldier as he has a dress uniform not issued to enlisted men 1914-18.
Also the photo was taken around 1910-12.
I've searched for his service docs. but alas not there from what I can see & are probably amongst the burnt documents.
Had he married his wife would be next of kin & receive pension. medals etc.
As a regular he could have been posted anywhere.
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Have you found him in military on 1911 census?
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Jim, many thanks,
mmm45, good idea, trying now though I am sure ancestry.coms search engine is designed to stress me as much as possible, either bringing back a zillion hits or none at all
Update - can't find anything military which looks like him - though found a couple of possibles languishing in local prisons which I need to check out further ;D
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There's one in Aldershot. He's in the Royal Fusiliers though.
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The 11085 number gives an enlistment date of May 1914 ..source Army Service Numbers 1881 website.thats with Royal Scots Fusiliers.
Ady
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I've been looking up uniforms images/photo's for Royal Scots and Royal Scots Fusiliers. I can't see the differences. British Army adopted khaki battle dress in 1908, not to say that the red coats were never worn after that. Khaki (Hindu word for mud I believe) goes back to India in the 1850's. Certainly not The Royal Fusiliers, a London Regiment.
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please check your facts again,that pic is royal scots fusiliers
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not to say that the red coats were never worn after that. Khaki
Khaki was only adopted as battle dress. Dress uniforms were & still are red for many Regiments.
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Many thanks again for all the responses.
If I can summarise so I can make sure I'm on the right track as I worked on this till late last night to the point where my head started to hurt ???
The uniform definitely relates to a Fusilier's uniform, most likely to be Royal Scots Fusiliers (I say most likely as from the posts I'm unclear if we can definitely rule out other Fusilier Regiments such as Royal Fusiliers / Royal Munster Fusiliers etc)
The uniform evidences that they were a regular soldier as its dress tunic which wouldn't have been issued post outbreak of WW1. The photo itself is potential around the 1910 to 1912 mark, with the service number indicating an enlisted around May 1914 (though I know service numbers can run out of sync sometimes as they often weren't issued from a central point)
Either way, taking the aforementioned into account, we can definitely say he joined anytime between 1910 and June 1914.
As we believe he was born in 1893 in Southwark, London (though we are struggling to find a birth cert so location may vary - age we are pretty certain of +1 / -1 year due to brothers either side that we have traced who were born Southwark at the family address) he would have turned 18 around 1911
11085 is a possible hit though the soldiers died database lists him as resident / being born in a location with no known family connections and enlisted in Glasgow - so not the final piece to the jigsaw but a lead worth following. No service record for 11085, x1 MIC
There are also two KIAs from the Royal Munster Fusiliers in the same name, hence why I mentioned them earlier 5842 & 5209 No service records available for either, born Ireland, so unlikely but secondary leads to follow unless told otherwise.
Its possible that they married 'finance in photo', hence why medals not passed down to us by parents.
Census for 1911 negative for Thomas Sullivan Royal Scots Fusiliers
What I plan to do know, again unless told otherwise.
Contact Royal Highland Fusiliers Museum and see if they can offer any additional information on the uniform and record keeping.
Send a request off to the Western Front Association for pension info on the above possibles, plus a couple of unlikely's I have to see if I can get any info which links them to family etc
Revisit attempting to trace Thomas' birth cert, including Newport area
Appreciate he may have enlisted, left and re-enlisted or enlisted and changed Corps / Regiments whilst serving but for obvious reasons need to eliminate this line of enquiry before I go broad on the search again.
If I've missed anything or got anything wrong then please let me know
Many thanks again.
Andy S
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The only other Regiment that comes close to this in tunic & tartan is the King's Own Scottish Borderers.
You can rule out the others.
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Jim, bugle boy, mmm45 thanks for all your help
Time for me to start to put the pieces together on this one.
07
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Andy
This may not help, but if I've followed the thread correctly you're looking for a birth certificate for Thomas circa 1893 in Southwark. Would it be possible that his birth was registered in a neighbouring borough, e.g. Lewisham? Nothing clever as I've just cut and pasted the records from FreeBMD, but there is a Thomas Charles registered in Lewisham in Quarter 2 of 1894. I searched for all Thomas Sullivan's born 1891 to 1895. Maybe there was a problem at Southwark Registrars Office when Thomas was born so parents were sent to the nearest? Just an idea??
Steve
Births Mar 1891 (>99%)
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Sullivan Thomas Greenwich 1d 1032
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Births Sep 1891 (>99%)
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SULLIVAN Thomas Woolwich 1d 1202
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Births Jun 1892 (>99%)
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Sullivan Thomas Marylebone 1a 606
Sullivan Thomas William St. Olave 1d 278
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Births Dec 1892 (>99%)
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Sullivan Thomas Gilbert St. Saviour 1d 56
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Births Mar 1894 (>99%)
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Sullivan Thomas Greenwich 1d 1059
Sullivan Thomas Greenwich 1d 1059
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Births Jun 1894 (>99%)
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Sullivan Thomas Pancras 1b 150
Sullivan Thomas Charles Lewisham 1d 1103
Sullivan Thomas William Lambeth 1d 442
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Births Mar 1895 (>99%)
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Sullivan Thomas St. Olave 1d 250
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Births Jun 1895 (>99%)
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Sullivan Thomas Patrick Poplar 1c 710
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Births Sep 1895 (>99%)
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Sullivan Thomas Charles Bethnal G. 1c 151
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Births Dec 1895 (>99%)
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Sullivan Thomas St. Olave 1d 184
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Fetlar, cheers and yes, you have hit the nail on the head with this one as Southwark I've seen listed as Greenwich, St Olave, St Saviour and a couple of others. Meaning he could be registered with any of them.
I put a request in last night to Births and deaths for a birth cert on an open search, namely his details, parents, approx year which they search one year either side of and birth area London - not sure if it will work. If it doesn't then it will be the case of picking your aforementioned list off one at a time, in order of most likely.
Andy