RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: mags913 on Friday 24 June 05 20:01 BST (UK)
-
Why would my grandparents bring a baby with them on their journey from Dublin to Manchester circa 1900, when the child was born to married parents and the father had a reasonable income as a printer? :-\
Mags
-
Hi Mags
Maybe if you can find out some of the history of what was going on at that time - you'll find that they probably brought the baby for safety - there was a lot of aggitation going on - did the parents come later by any chance? you never know - they could have been caught up in the aggitation too...
That would probably be a good starting off point
Annie
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/ni/growth_belfast.shtml
-
Hi Mags,
Not knowing any of the circumstances, it's hard to guess
why the baby was taken to England by your grandparents.
I can think of a few possibilities such as the mother being unable to care for the baby due to illness or mental instability, following the birth. Another possibility is that the parents for whatever reason did not want the baby, perhaps it was not normal in some way or it was not really
their baby, but the illegitimate child of a sister or older daughter that they had been passing off as their own.
If there were no stories passed down in the family, I don't think there is any way that you will ever know the truth.
Carmela
-
Hi Annie and Carmela
Thank you both for your ideas each makes common sense and have broadened my ideas about her early life. I did think that maybe her parents couldn't afford another child and as my grandparents had no children of their own at the time it would have opened up greater opportunities for her as she grew up. I would love to have traced her family but getting any information about Dublin around the turn of the century is almost impossible without visiting Dublin and spending time doing the research myself.
I have placed numerous messages on various messageboards asking for help even if it was only the 1901 census but so far had no replies.
I hope one day that I will find out a little more about her.
Thank you both most sincerely.
Margaret
-
Hi Margaret!
I'd be more than happy to help if I can - if you would like to post some details - date of birth names etc.
Annie
-
Hi Annie
Thank you for the offer of help. I have a copy of her original birth certificate dated 20th April 1943.
Registered N. City 2
Date and place of Birth. 11th November 1899 Rotunda Hospital
There is no Christian name given but it was Kathleen.
Name of Father. James Fanning 16 North Cumberland Street
Name of Mother. Esther Fanning formerly Wigmore
Profession of Father. Printer
Signature, Qualification and Residence of Informant. C. Sloane present at Birth in Rotunda Hospital.
When Registered. 16th November 1899
Basically that is all that is on the certificate.
My grandparents were James Richard and Bridget Fewings formerly Masterson who were married 30th April 1899 at the Pro-Cathedral. I have then identified them in Manchester about 1903. I just don't understand why they would bear the added burden of someone else's child when they were obviously poverty stricken themselves as their first child died from TB aged 18 months and was buried in a paupers grave.
I would be so grateful for any information no matter how small.
Regards
Margaret
-
OK Margaret - (sounds so much better than Aggiebagwash) :P :P
I talked to a knowledgable Irishman on this board -
and there was unrest at that time with the labor movement etc.
Connolly and Larkin were active in early part of century.
Perhaps your printer James was involved in movement???
http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/reviews/rebel-city/
and that's why they brought the baby out of the country
We may never know - I think what we should concentrate on the baby - I realise that you find it hard to understand why they would take on an extra mouth to feed - but grandchildren are very special people!!! and until we find out more details - we don't know!!
Indeed the unrest was not confined to Ireland as you can see from this item.
http://www.tgwu.org.uk/Templates/RegionInternal.asp?NodeID=90304&PrintFriendly=True
Let's try working on it - and see what we can come up with OK? and if you can think of anything else that might help - just post it !
Regards
Annie
-
I was just thinking -
it's also possible that the parents decided to try America or Canada
to start a new life and then were going to send for the baby later!! ::)
-
Margaret, your mystery is an interesting one!
Is that date for the GP marriage (1899) correct?
Is it a second marriage and that's why the connection to who's son/dau are James Fanning and Esther Wigmore isn't obvious.
Was wondering how they could be GP's, married in 1899, with the gchild b. the same year and have also lost an 18 mo. old to TB.
I assume the 1943 date was when the Birth Certificate copy of the original 1899 birth was reissued?
kathy
-
Hi again Mags! AFter thinking some more --- your grandparents were young in 1899 and were contemporaries of whoever the parents of the child are??
Do you know the relationship between James Fanning and Esther Wigmore to James & Bridget or that is part of your mystery as well.
I was assuming that James & Bridget were the GP of the baby but maybe not --- They are YOUR GP who raised this child?
Do I have it right? Sorry to sound so nosey-- just trying to get it clear in my mind so know if I can help or not.
kathy
-
Hi Margaret
I wonder if it would be possible to get hospital records?
ROTUNDA HOSPITAL
Parnell Street, Dublin 1. Tel 01 8730700. Fax 01 8726523.
The Rotunda Hospital is more than 250 years old, founded in 1745 by Dr Bartholomew Mosse. During the course of his work as a surgeon, Mosse became deeply concerned at the plight of expectant mothers he came across in the Dublin Liberties. Many of these women lived in squalid conditions and all too often succumbed to starvation and disease and died along with their infants. Mosse, determined to do something about this social scandal, invited citizens of wealth to join him in raising charitable funds to buy premises for a 'Lying-In' Hospital. His appeal met with a generous response and the hospital, which was the first of its kind in Europe, opened on March 15th, 1745. The success of the first Lying-In hospital was so obvious that Mosse decided to plan for a larger, purpose built hospital. The current site, at the top of Dublin's main thoroughfare, O'Connell Street. was secured and the first baby was born in the new 'Lying-In' hospital on 8th December 1757. About 6,000 births and 3,000 operations take place in the Rotunda every year, with a further 50,000 outpatient visits. Five hundred staff are employed by the Hospital offering a round-the-clock service in obstetrics , gynaecology and paediatrics. In 1993 a new wing with nine delivery suites and two new operating theatres was opened. Staff Listings and further information is published annually in the IRISH MEDICAL DIRECTORY
See the Hospital Records database - search Rotunda Hospital Dublin
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/search.asp
-
Hi Margaret
Are we dealing with the same James Richard Fewings that's on the Devonshire board?
Maybe we should be reading that information too - just in case we can tie it in with this situation !
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,61743.msg249727.html#msg249727
Annie
-
Thanks Annie
I don't know where to start. Do I reply to your message or look at all the information you have given me. Can't resist it just got to reply to you.
Well Annie. My son-in-law is Irish and his nickname for me is aggiebagwash but my friends call me Margaret. ::)
You certainly get around the messageboards. Yes they are the same. James was born in Torquay in 1872, on the 1881 census he lived in Paignton and I cannot find him on the 1891 or 1901 census. The only place I can identify him is on his marriage certificate in Dublin in 1899.
I have always presumed that my grandparents were friends of Esther and James Fanning who for whatever reason couldn't look after the baby. (I am a bit of a romantic )!!! I hadn't actually thought that Esther may have died or been seriously ill.
I was hoping that I could find details of either family or even Bridget's family the Masterson's on the 1901/1911 census but hadn't realized that you cannot get access on the internet. I don't even know why/how James came to be in Dublin. He obviously had a job as a labourer and I presumed that it was in the docks. I find it difficult to understand why a young man would leave the relatively busy area of Plymouth to live in Dublin? I thought he may have been a naval seaman or working on a fishing boat but there are no clues whatsoever.
I will have a look at the websites you have suggested and see if they give me a clue.
Thanks Annie
Margaret
-
Hi Kathy
Yes. James and Bridget were my grandparents but haven't a clue about James and Esther Fanning all I have is her Birth Certificate with them as her parents. I don't know when they came to Manchester or even why. If it was to find work surely he would have been better off going back to Plymouth where his family lived.
If you think this family is a mystery wait until I start my maternal family tree now that one will be difficult as they appear to have been born in different parts of Ireland at the same time. Ha! Ha! Think I will need a four leaf clover for that one. ;D
I think that the only way I am going to crack this one is via the census records. ie identifying each family and trying to link them however tenuously. I don't know why but I don't think they are blood related.
I am going to have a look at those websites that you and Annie suggested and see if they provide a clue. Oh dear!! another late night. ::)
Thanks once again Kathy will keep in touch.
Margaret
-
Hi Margaret!!
I should have given you the site for the Irish National Archives for the Rotunda Hospital not the English - sorry!!
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/womens_history/women.html
Annie
-
Hi Margaret! Annie & I have been working on your mystery -- we went back to catch up some details from your other postings and not sure if we are connecting dots correctly or not.
First, since you began wanting info from Dublin for
Thomas & Mary Masterson
James and Bridget (Masterson) Fewings
James and Ester (Wigmore) Fanning
Baby Kathleen Fanning
Maybe you are only interested in them at that specific time frame and their relationship to Baby Kathleen?
But a few questions anyway:
Bridget Masterson Fewings Do you know where she was likely born?
James Fewing b. 1832 Witheridge living in Plymouth -- How related??
Found Lucy Cook Chew and Robert Chew in 1881, Robert is a Butcher w/ 2 sons: William b. 1864 and John Henry b. 1869 both born in York, Are there older children?
1881 William b. (1828) and Jane (b. 1833) Fewings in Paington with children:
Rosena 1863,
James 1866 Torque (not 1872)
William 1868
John 1873
(Think William’s “Davey “ surname was irrelevant census error because in 1881 he is in as “Fewings” in Paignton)
1891 No info yet
1899 Wm/Bridget marry in Dublin Kathleen born in Dublin. Don’t know why Fewings in Dublin
1901 No Info yet
1903 Living in Manchester
Lastly, Can you clarify your maternal and paternal sides?
Also did Kathleen go by Fanning or Fewings? Assume you know if she married, etc.?
Thanks! And fingers crossed, we will try to find out a little bit more!
Kathy & Annie
-
This is a start for 1891:
Under FENNING.
at 27 Hobart Street, East Stonehouse, Devon
Jane 1833 Widow born Brent
John Thos 1873 born Plymouth
William John 1869 widower cornwall
Rosina J Froud 1865 Plymouth
RG12/1739
folio 120
page 44
plus i have
Rosina Jane Fewings married dec 1889 to Absolom Henry Froud(5b 627)
William Fewings death. march 1887 age 58 Tiverton (5b 343)
Kev.
-
Looking at the image - it looks like Fewings to me!!
also a boarder - not a familiar name to us - but maybe later !
Elizabeth Roberts age 33 Dressmaker Plymouth Devon
wonder if they used a mark or wrote their name !! Fanning Fenning Fewing maybe they are all the same name!! :P
I have 12 different spellings of my Muels Moules etc.....::)
Annie ::)
-
On my Fanning group -- no "official" variations, but I've found the right people under the wrong spelling several times -- the obvious variations and then there was "Fanningers" -- only found that by paging thru 35 pages of 1880 census as it wasn't in the transcriptions rightly OR wrongly!!
kathy
-
1901
10 Gasking St Plymouth
John Fewings Head 28 Printers Machinist Plymouth
Mary Fewings Wife 28 Plymouth
Vera Rosina May 3 Plymouth
Reginald Alfred John 1 Plymouth
PS
On Kev's posting - 1891 William John and John Thomas were Printer's Machinists
-
Annie, Brilliant!
So this would seem to be James Fewings' brother John, his younger brother shown in the 1881 Census and in 1891 as "Fenning" with his widowed mother, with his family.
Seems to also go to the possible date confusion between
James b. 1872 but really is 1866 in Torquay
John b. 1873 Plymouth
And the connection to the printing profession!
Nice! Just hope it fits in to Margaret's other finding??
kathy
-
Our friend Kevin (That's his Sunday name - even though it's only Thursday!!)
told me he had found it - I looked again and there it was...
in the words of the poet - Easy peezy lemon squeezy !!! :P :P :P :P :P
though I wonder if this isn't one Margaret already has !!
We're probably at a standstill until Margaret answers with some information
we think she has - where are you Margaret ???
Annie
-
Hi Margaret! Hope you haven't gone on Holiday!
Well I have major egg on my face :-[ :-[. When I reviewed your past posts to catch up on your search, I checked only under your current Chat name and also saw some of your postings under your previous Chat name. However, the posts under Mags913 only showed if they were connected to your Aggiebagwash posting. SO, mea culpa mea culpa, all your postings and replies under Mags913 were not found.
So think everything we have found recently is a rehash x3 of everything you already have discovered from others on the various boards as well as your own resources. We are only going to confuse everything further. I know I'm confused!
So maybe after you have sorted, sifted and reconstituted your info, you should repost with what your new findings are as they pertain to your remaining mysteries and someone may be able to help from that point on.
I will say, from all the name changing, date and name confusion and coincidences, it is looking more and more that Kathleen (or whatever her name was -- as you say it does not show on her birth certificate) was perhaps James Fewing/Fenning/Fanning's own child. And perhaps the name and its spelling was lost in translation between his Devonshire accent and the Dublin Registrar's Irish hearing and writing. How the potential mothers fit in is perplxing: Is the birth mother Ester Wigmore Fanning, is that her right name? or is the birth mother someone else entirely?
I can't fathom at this point.
So very best of luck to you in your continued search!
Regards,
kathy
-
Jane Fewings death
Dec 1899 Devonport (age 65)
5b 262
Kev
-
Rosinas second marriage was to Frank Edward Brown
1901 census:
Rosina J Brown Widow 1866 Plymouth
Bertram Brown son 1895 East Stonehouse
Address is unclear.
RG13/2104
Folio 45
Page 4
Kev.
-
Hi Everyone
Well I have certainly confused everybody haven't I? I didn't mean to I just found the website and over a period of time sort of put a few messages out. Sorrrry everyone. ::)
Would it help if I separated the families.
The Masterson family lived in Dublin
Bridget (my grandmother) was born to Thomas and Mary Masterson nee Clinche 2nd February 1877 they lived at 23 Denzille St. South Dublin
Bridget married James Richard Hatch Fewings 30th April 1899. She lived at 15 Grenville St. He lived at 44 Clarence St. Witness Mary Masterson.
Kathleen Fanning born to James and Esther Fanning nee Wigmore 1899. 16 North Cumberland St. Dublin. I can't say whether she used the name Fanning or Fewings. Some documents I have say Fewings and others Fanning. I think that for legal reasons she used her own name and for family reasons Fewings. She never married.
No known connection between the two families.
The Fewings family from Devon.
James Richard Hatch Fewings born 1870 to William and Jane Fewings. Born 5 Masons Row Torquay. 1871 census family found in Plymouth. James aged 5 months.
On the 1881 census for Paignton all the ages, places of birth and names are mixed up. It is impossible to decode where William states he was born. William died August 1881.
The family moved back to Plymouth after his death I cannot find James on the 1891 census he seems to disappear until I found his marriage by pure chance in Dublin. I also knew very little about Rosina until I found her marriage and Jane's death.
Going back a generation. James Richard's father William Fewings married Jane Hatch 1856 Plymouth. His marriage certificate gives a witness James Fewings. I have always wondered if he was William's brother/cousin?
Just recently found on the 1861 census for Plymouth a James Fewings born Witheridge age 29. On familysearch.com I found a James Fewings christened 30th May 1830 son of John and Ann at Witheridge. Is this the same John and Ann parents of William born in Creacombe? If so then it is William's brother. The birth would slot in nicely between William (1828) and Maria (1832).
Confused!!! Well so am I. Annie if its easy, pezzy lemon squeezy as you say I should be flying. ;)
Kathy and Annie. Do you really want my maternal and paternal sides? Here goes!!
Paternal
Fewings all Devon.
Hatch, Hannaford, Penny from South Brent and Widecombe in the Moor in Devon.
Masterson 19th century Dublin
Clinche 19th century ???
Maternal
Morrison from Stirling Scotland
Duncanson from Stirling Scotland
Foley born India (suspect father from Ireland).
Moneypenny from Naas Kildare and Dublin.
The Chew, Berry, Smith, Roberts and Johnson are my husband's family who have been reasonably easy to trace with a few exceptions.
Well everyone if you aren't asleep by the time you get to the end of this message I would like to know why?
I really envy you being able to log on at any time as I am restricted to evenings as I work in a school and anything with 'chat' in is blocked. I usually find ten minutes at lunchtime to do a little research but this site is well and truly out of bounds I'm afraid. :(
If you could come up with a few ideas I would be very grateful.
Regards
Margaret
P.S I haven't forgotten you Kev thanks for the info. I hadn't found any of the family on the 1891 census but I must confess that I thought I could sail back into the distant past and then move forward to fill in the gaps. ??? How wrong I was. ::)
-
Hi Margaret!
Well - I'm really glad you gave us the summary - but this takes some thinking now and we need to catch up on our sleep before we start again!! :P :P
I'm curious and I'd like to find out - but Kathy's beat - and I'm beat - we burned the midnight oil over this one !! and it's the holiday weekend coming up - 4th of July and all that - and I'd love to be able to work on it some more - but I know I'm not going to be able to spend too much time on it for the next few days at least
I don't think Kathy can either - so maybe we could pick it up next week - but in the meantime if anybody else wants to jump in - that would be great!!
If you think of anything else Margaret - post it OK?
And if I find anything I'll be sure to post too!!
Have a great night
Annie
-
Hi Kathy and Annie
Thanks for all your hard work I don't know how you do it. Have a good holiday. :) Hope to speak to you next week if you come up with any new ideas.
Regards
Margaret
-
Hi Margaret i need to ask a couple of questions.
1) How do you know where they were in 1903?
2) How do you know that they brought the baby(Kathleen) back from Dublin?(do you have a passenger list?)
Kev.
-
Hi Kev
I don't know where they were in 1903 I was just guessing. They had a child James Richard Thomas born 1905 in Manchester and died 1907 in Manchester. As I can't find the family on the 1901 census in England I presumed that they were still living in Dublin that is why I posted a look-up for 1901/1911 census for Dublin but so far had no replies.
I have looked for web sites that have passenger lists but I can't find any for the Dublin/Liverpool route only America, Canada and Australia. So can't trace them that way.
It's strange but I had never thought about how Kathleen came to be in this country. Not once has it ever crossed my mind that the two families may have travelled together. I took it for granted that she came with my grandparents. Maybe both families ie Fewings and Fannings came for a better life and something happened to the Fannings so my grandparents just took on the responsibility of the child.
I don't suppose I will ever know under what circumstances she came to be brought up as their daughter but I will have a D.....d good time searching.
Do you think it would be worth looking at the deaths for Fannings from approximately 1900-1910 in Manchester?
How amazing!! You have opened up two or three areas that I hadn't even considered. Thank you. ;D
Regards
Margaret
-
Margaret, have you tried posting and inquiry at the forum at L'pool & SW Lancs FHS?
http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk
kathy
-
I think that the passenger lists you want are Usa or Canada to England always stopped off in Ireland on way and are just the return journeys of the others.
Might get lucky.
I would concentrate on that as it would tell you for definate when they came back, am sure its after 1901 thats why not in that census. Also tell you if maybe they died on the boat or at least if they were all together, may have met on the boat?
I do still like the possibility that James Fanning and James Fewings are the same person.
Kev.
-
Hi Kath and Kev.
Thanks for the ideas they just seem to flow from you both. Kathy this sounds so pathetic but what do you suggest that I put on the messageboard? Request details for the name Fanning/Fewings or ask for information on passenger lists?
Kev. I had not even thought about the emigrant ships returning via Ireland. Am I stupid or what? Now you are really going to have to help me. Where the heck do I start looking? :-[
Regards
Margaret
-
Hi Kath and Kev
Spent the morning searching for the death in England of Esther and James Fanning between 1901 and 1912. There were no records that came even close to a maybe. Yes Kev I took your advice and looked at all the different spellings. So the theory that the Fannings came to England, ended up in Liverpool or Manchester and died when Kathleen was a child bear no results. I think that I am back to James and Bridget bringing her with them possibly as an orphan. (I wish I could get rid of this romantic streak that I suddenly appear to have and get back to reality. Ha Ha!!) ;D
It is so frustrating trying to trace Irish ancestors. Why can't the few records that they have available be accessed on line? I am sure that even if we had to pay a small charge it would be worth it. I am really envious of people who seem to be able to trace their Irish roots back centuries. How do they do it?
Will keep plodding along in my tiny tinpot way and hope that I get an answer soon.
Margaret 8)
-
Margaret, people who participate in the Liverpool/Lancs FHS board have access to the primary records of the area including a lot of specialized records -- like parish BMD's and such.
If this group wasn't available for 1901 census you may be able to find the birth/death record of the child James Richard Thomas, for example in Parish records or local civil records.
Or a death record of the Fannings couples
Or information on paupers graves
Be sure to include all the various spelling possibilites in your post as well.
Post again on the Dublin board ...once posts get old, people don't always scan down the page to look for them.
Just a few suggestions. I'm sure you can think of more specific questions which might lead some kernal of other key information.
Since you asked, I think you need to set aside the romantic bit for the moment and think a little more like a detective --"looking for just the facts, ma'am, just the facts" --- that's a famous line from a very old American TV show "Dragnet".
kathy
-
Margaret,
I am SURE you must have done this LONG ago, but you did notice "katebray"s posting on the Dublin Look Ups Board.
She seems to have a lot of info available to her as well as a host of links posted OR maybe be able to provide additional insights to your mystery.
Just thought I'd mention......."just in case"..........
kathy
-
Kathy
Sadly I remember the original Dragnet series so I suppose that makes me a little piece of history too. :D
I hadn't seen "katebray's" posting maybe I am not looking in the right places but I sure am learning fast.
I tried accessing the Liverpool/Lancashire website but couldn't download Java for some reason so I will have to wait until my husband has time to do it. He has lots of patience with computers.
I have got James Richard Thomas's birth and death certificates and have visited his grave about 10 years ago. Sadly that part of the cemetery was built over for a new superstore so I can't visit his grave anymore. However, on wards and up wards as they say. I have spent all morning searching for the Fannings deaths in the North West from 1901-1912 I searched every combination of spelling that I could think of but there was nothing. I think I will have to accept that they didn't come to England and have to rethink how to research in Dublin.
I will put another posting out as you suggest and hope that I can find some kind people to help me just as you have done.
Regards
Margaret
-
katebray's post
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,7424.0.html
kathy
-
Hi Kathy
Just posted message to Katebray so hope that she has some sympathy with me and gives me a clue. Ha! Another television programme. Think I have watched too much television over the years.
Why is Irish Family History so hard to research over the internet when other countries have made it so simple? Such a lot of the messages go unanswered sadly.
Margaret
-
Dont know if this site is any good margaret, kept seeming to end up on it when searching but its a pay site.
http://scripts.ireland.com/ancestor/index.cfm
Kev.
-
Thanks Kev
I have had a quick scan on that website and it looks promising. I will have to work out the cost in sterling first. :-
Margaret
-
Surely the fact that we can't an Esther or James Fanning at all add even more to the theory that he is the same person as James Fewings?
Kev.
-
I dont know where you have been looking Margaret but there are 5 deaths for James Fanning in Lancashire between 1901 and 1908!!
June 1901 Manchester age 57 (8d 172)
June 1902 Liverpool age 17(probably not)
March 1902 Flyde age 64(8e 489)
September 1903 Chorlton age 62 (8c 549)
March 1908 West Derby age 93 ( You would hope not)
Kev.
-
Hi Kev
Yes I found all the James Fannings you have pointed out but dismissed each one for a variety of reasons. Can't stop laughing at the last one. But you never know. The age of most of them actually stopped me from persuing them any further.
As they were in their late 50's early 60's I couldn't see the sense in uprooting themselves with a baby, maybe I am totally wrong to dismiss them I don't know.
Remember James Fanning was a printer but James Fewings was a labourer and was for the rest of his life. If as you say they are one and the same I will have a hard job proving it. How do you reconcile the fact that James and Bridget married in April and Kathleen was born in the November to James and Esther? The details are too specific for me to dismiss.
Although I don't have Kathleen's original birth certificate I do have the one she got in 1943. Her brother's always knew that she wasn't their sister it was never hidden from them.
I am going to try that website you suggested later this week maybe that will give me a clue.
Margaret
-
The ages are a bit old but i wouldn't rule anything out unless you have a date of birth for him.
On the birth cert of Kathleen, who is the informant, if it is Esther then i am wrong, if it is James then you never know!! They just put what they were told on the certs in those days.
Its only a theory about being the same man all im suggesting is James could be Kathleens father and she had a different mother , it fits with almost everything, why we cant find a James Fanning, why they brought Kathleen back with them and why we can't find an Esther in England. Weve all got thing like it we have found in our research.
Kev.
-
Not trying to put the cat among the pigeons or anything -
but when Kathy and I first started this we had a couple of thoughts -
Margaret before I say anything - you have to understand that we all of us find all kinds of skeletons in the closet and after the shock of the first one - it starts getting quite exciting!! Having said that - here's a couple of possible scenerios....
!. What if Ester was the birth mom and Bridget didn't know about the baby until after James married her -- then she didn't want to go through the humiliation of everybody knowing what an "ungentleman" James was, how he tricked her and an annulment?
2. Or to think like Kev ( and a man's point of view is always a plus!!::P ) Bridget was pregnant and they dummied up the name bit somehow? Big stretch between Ester's name and Bridget's name however (and then what about those Masterson's that you assume are Bridget's parents? )
Maybe it's something to ponder - like I said - our families are not usually what we think they are - I know with my own - I have more than a few liars cheats and cons....!!but you know what? that's what makes them all the more endearing :D
Annie
-
Margaret
Another thought that comes to mind seeing as how they are in Dublin....
I don't know if you have heard of the Magdelan Sisters - it was a place where unmarried girls went -( they had a terrible life - by the way! - )
and the baby wouldn't have gone too - if the mother could find alternative arrangements!!
Just a thought!!
Annie
http://www.netreach.net/~steed/magdalen.html
-
It says the informant is C. Sloane present at birth. I presume a nurse as she was born in Rotunda hospital. However there is no Christian name given for the child. I am unfamiliar with Irish certificates so don't know if this was the normal way of registering a birth in a hospital.
Margaret
-
This might help with looking in Ireland!! thought you might find it handy ::P
Irish naming patterns
First son after father's father
Second son after mother's father
Third son after father
Fourth son after father's oldest brother
Fifth son after mother's oldest brother
First daughter after mother's mother (or father's mother)
Second daughter after father's mother (or mother's mother)
Third daughter after mother
Fourth daughter after mother's oldest sister
Fifth daughter after father's oldest sister
-
Annie
Trust me my whole family on both sides created the skeleton in the cupboard scenario. There is nothing that would shock me anymore. I'm too broadminded for that anyway. ;D
Your theory of the illegitimate child being born in to Esther could be right but I don't understand why she would be brought up as Fanning and her brother's
being told she wasn't their sister. From what I can remember they all looked after her even when they left home and my father went to see her at least two or three times a week until she died in 1974. She was only called Fewings by my cousins and myself otherwise it was Fannings. I suppose because it was difficult to explain things and children were meant to be seen and not heard in my childhood. Ha!Ha! didn't work with me though that's why I know nearly all the family secrets. ;)
I know Bridget was a Masterson as I have her birth, marriage and death certificates. I think I really need to persue Esther's marriage or death certificates. That will open up a new agenda if I can identify her as a living person not a figment of my imagination.
And yes Annie I know all about Catholic Nuns I went to a Convent myself and lived near an orphanage so there is very little you can tell me about them. :-X
Thanks for the naming pattern I will toss a few ideas around and get back to you.
Margaret
-
Hi Margaret, just caught up on all the last posts,
Looks like you pretty much have all the information you need with all the documents you have already accumulated with DOB, DOD, marriages, etc. So seems you should be able to add all things together quite well, actually!
I don't have ANY actual certs except my own! But have still managed to ferret out a family secret or two or three....... Much to the dismay of some older cousins whose ears should have been bigger!
Don't think just because everyone liked and cared for Kathleen that it necessarily says anything about the circumstances of her birth. My Ggrandfather was illigitimate -- took his "adopted" father name, his mother lived within the family well respected and loved by her son and grandchildren, and until about a month ago no one knew he was born out of wedlock and his father was not her husband!
Hesitate in making any more suggestions, actually... but one last one and then will leave you to own devices, noticed your post on the Dublin look up for 1901 - "Just in case" they are not at the location you think, might want to fill in with enough details so that they might be located at another location. I'm sure you know from your own look up experience, often hard to determine if it is the right person without at least a birthdate (or guesstimate of it) to compare to....might save some false starts for the looker upper and get you where you want to go faster!
Good luck!
kathy
-
Hi Kathy
Well yes I suppose that having the certificates does help though its not got me very far has it?
I will take on board your advice about expanding on the information on the Dublin board. I love all the family secrets that keep coming out into the open. As a child I was very astute and could always put two and two together and so far they have always made four. My daughters go mad when I say something and then am proved right Ha! Ha!
I think it is sad that openness and honesty in families was repressed it must have made life very difficult at times.
Will keep in touch if I find anything. Thanks for all the help and suggestions you have given me. :)
Margaret
-
Hello Margaret, This was the answer from the Board moderator at Rootsweb.com to someone elses (?) inquiry -- or was it you??
Quote
The first complete census records for Ireland are for 1901 and 1911. Neither is indexed by surname so you need to know the specific location of those you're researching to look at the specific geographic location. They're available on microfilm through a LDS Family History Centre.
The census records for 1861, 71, 81 and 91 were all destroyed by the English Government (there was no Irish Government at that time). The first two were destroyed shortly after completion it's believed for confidentiality reasons and the last two for use as pulp during WWI. Census records for 1821, 31, 41 and 51 were largely destroyed in 1922 during the Irish Civil War, just before independence from England.
Civil registration records began in Ireland in 1864 (Protestant marriages in 1845). They're not online. Indexes and some detailed records have been microfilmed and are available through a LDS Family HIstory Centre. Otherwise if you know the date of the event you can request copies of certs through the An tSeirbhís um Chlárú Sibhialta -- the General Register Office.
The primary research source in Ireland is church registers but you need to know your ancestor's religion as well as the townland, civil parish and county where they originated to identify the church registers for that location. End Quote
kathy
-
Thanks Kathy
That is the first time I have seen anything relating to the whereabouts of the records and what is available. Thanks so much for taking the trouble to send it to me. It's a lot to take in in one go but I think that I will try to find a researcher to look at specific addresses. It's just finding one. I have had some horrendous quotes over the years but very little information at the end.
My problem is that I don't drive so going to an LDS Family History Centre can take upto two hours from where I live and they are usually only open in the evenings. The annoying thing is there used to be one about 2 miles away and it closed down and was transferred to one 15 miles away. Ce la vie!!
The other alternative suggested by Annie was to visit Dublin and do the research myself. It's very tempting but I will have to put it off for a while as I am fully booked with weddings and holidays for the next few months. Just had an idea. Try and get myself invited to a wedding in Dublin and then I have got no excuse. Ha! Ha!
Will keep you in touch with my plans. thanks once again for the information.
Margaret :)
-
"GODPARENT'S"...not grandparents??
Hello...can I buy into this as well?
My instincts tell me that someone has written grandparent when it should have read Godparent
Godparents had a very responsible roll in those days & not even all that far back...because it was more common for people to die young.
They became the parents if one or more of the original parents died. The trick would be to find the christening or baptismal records which would have their names on it, if indeed they were the Godparents...which being Irish looks difficult.
I can't help but remember a young girl from Scotland back in the 1950's, who was new to Australia. We really cracked up (laughed) when in a department store one day, she asked to buy a fruit bowl & was directed to the sports section, because they thought she was saying "foot ball"
Accents can be tricky!
Hope this is more help than hindrance
Maureen
-
Hi Maureen
Thanks for the idea I have to confess that I hadn't even thought about Godparents being in the equation. You could be right. I will have to see what I can find out about the RC churches in the area. It would seem logical if one or both of her parents died as the Victorians took their religious duties very seriously.
I have been wondering if it was normal practice when a child was born in hospital for the informant of the birth to be a member of staff. On the birth certificate one column says Signature, Qualification and Residence of informant. Underneath is written C.Sloane Present at Birth, Rotunda Hospital.
I don't think this was a Doctor as there is no title and I don't understand why the father didn't register the birth. This is the only birth certificate I have where a child was born in a hospital so I have nothing to compare it to.
This is turning out to be the saga of the 20th century. I wonder if there are any Christening records available for that period?
Thanks once again for the idea its a good line to follow.
Margaret :)
-
This is the first time I've read this and won't jump into making any suggestions where to look as I got lost half way through the thread :-[ ??? ??? ??? But I just wanted to say something that reminded me of an incident in my own family, you are talking about an Esther and a Bridget both with a surname which could be misinterpreted when written.
I had an aunt who was called Delia, in fact they even called their daughter Delia, of course I thought that was her name didn't I? ....... Until I found the married on LancashireBMD when I told my mother that uncle must have been married twice as the wife's name was something totally different. Oh no, she said, she just didn't like the name Bridget!!!
Now why do our ancestors just live their lives to confuse us! ;D ;D ;D
Annie, I hope your Irish naming sequence is right, I have my fingers crossed with my own grandmother's family. On the 1871 census I discovered a first son who must have died young, otherwise it wouldn't have worked, but the only confirmation I can give is that the 3rd son was most definitely named after the father.
By the way, I love the name Aggiebagwash, takes me back to my childhood when the wash-house was just around the corner. :P
Mary
-
See what fresh eyes do? ::) ::) ::)
Godparents instead of grandparents! That is a great thought!! Kathy just said - How come we didn't think of that? and it's probably the easiest solution....
::)
You're so smart Maureen!!
and Mary - hush! you're showing your age!! :P
Annie
-
and Mary - hush! you're showing your age!! :P
Annie
:-X I'm not sure whether you are lots older than me Annie, or only a touch, the very smallest touch of course, younger! :-X
Godparents sound the ideal solution to me.
Mary
-
All of my information is heresay.. ::)
What's a wash house?
Annie :P
-
Its where yer mam used ter send yer wid der washin wrapped up in yer shawl perched on yer ed, an if yer dropped it on der floor den yer never got no bread 'n drippin for yer tea.
Mary :P
-
kay la ... ! :P :P
ditja 'ave to kick der moggie down der jigger befor yer got der :P
an wot's drippin' ? ::)
Sorry Margaret - I'll get off your post!!!
Annie
-
Hi Annie
That's what my son-in-law calls me. I am not old enough to remember wash-houses!!!! ::)
Margaret
-
This is the latest update to my original query and it's even more complicated now. I have Kathleen Fanning's birth cert which was issued in 1943. It gives her parents names as James Fanning (a printer) and Esther nee Wigmore and her date of birth as 11th November 1899 but there is no birth name on the certificate which links in with a record I found many years ago while searching the birth records for Dublin.
Recently I looked at the 1901 and 1911 Irish censuses and found on the 1901 what could be Esther age 21 and Kathleen age 1 year and 4 months living in Summerhill, Mountjoy, Dublin. The census however states Esther and Kathleen are the daughters of Thomas Fanning age 60 a bootmaker. Neither are on the 1911 so I looked for Esther's death and sent for the death cert which arrived this morning. Esther died from Phthisis on the 4th April 1901 and it's the same address. It states she was in the workhouse/hospital for 8 days and the informant is an inmate of the workhouse. It also says she was a spinster.
Thomas Fanning isn't on the 1911 and neither is Kathleen so now I'm back to square one. Is this the same Esther Fanning and Kathleen Fanning that I've been looking for or the names are just a coincidence?
Margaret