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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Wiltshire => Topic started by: wentworth13 on Sunday 27 April 14 06:09 BST (UK)
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Need help to find what happened to the brothers. Both appear on the Manningford Abbots transcripts list being baptised 1804 and 1806. Father Thomas mother Maria. Cannot find anymore. Their younger brothers migrated to South Australia and one of their sister's migrated to Victoria. Perhaps they did to. On a census their appeared a John aged 2 but Maria was 55 so I think that may have been a grandchild. Perhaps he belonged to John. Any help would be appreciated :)
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Possibles?
1851 Census
Wilsford, Wiltshire
HO107/1844/120/33
Robert BAILEY, 43 (1808), Head, Mar, Ag Lab, born MANNINGFORD, Wiltshire
Maria, 47, Wife
George, 22
Mary, 16
Sarah, 13
Eliza, 6
Ann, 7
Emma, 1
F/S has a Marriage to a Maria HOLLOWAY, 25 October 1828, Wilsford Near Pewsey,Wiltshire
1861 Robert is born c 1807, Manningford Bohun, Wiltshire
1851 has a JOHN Bailey born c 1804, Manningford, Wiltshire (down as Thoss, image is John)
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HelloTrish 1120
That could be a winner. I have seen the Holloway name before and had to rule it out for Robert's father as he married a Maria.
The 1851 census with John (who was born 1804) is he married or what? I am trying to figure out how
John could be translated to Thos. There is a Thomas born 1826 and he came out to SOuth Australia
on the Blundell 1856. aged 29. He was single. So now it is only John that I have to try and verify.
And if Thomas did not come out until 1856 where is he in 1851? Mystery deepens
Thanks :D
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Yes, John is Married, if you need Census details please ask. I am going off-line soon so can type them up tomorrow if you need them.
Re John/Thoss, handwriting is bad so the transcriber has just made a mistake.
Trish :)
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Thanks Trish I would like them but no hurry. I also am going off line soon. Thanks for your help.It is great. :)
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1841 Census
Upavon, Wiltshire
HO107/1186/10/Upavpn
John Bailey, 35, Ag Lab
Anne, 35
Emma, 15
John, 11
Louisa, 8
Thomas, 6
James, 3
Hannah, 2mths
All born in County
1851 Census
Upavon, Wiltshire
HO107/1844/74/7
John BAILEY, 47, Head, Mar, born Manningford
Ann, 44, Wife, Mar, born Upavon
Emma, 23, Daug, Unm
John, 20, Son, Unm, Ag Lab
Louisa, 18, Daug, Unm
Thomas, 16, Son, Unm, Ag Lab
Hannah, 1yr, 10mths, Daug
Alfred J, 9mths, Grandson
All born Upavon except John nr
1861 Census
Woodford, Wiltshire
RG9/1311/108/21
John BAILY, 56, Head, Mar, born Manningford Abbotts
Ann, 53, Wife, Mar, born Uphavon
Emma, 33, Daug, Unm, born Uphavon
Stephen, 17, Son, Unm, Shepherd, born Uphavon
Alfred John, 10, Visitor, Scholar, born Uphavon
Kate, 8, Visitor, Scholar, born Uphavon
1871 Census
Woodford, Wiltshire
RG10/1945/45/1
John BAILEY, 67, Head, Mar, Fram Lab, born Manningford
Ann, 64, Wife, Mar, born Upavon
Alfred John, 20, Grandson, Unm, Farm Lab, born Upavon
Jane, 7, Grand/Daug, born Woodford
STEPHEN Bailey ;
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 24 Dec 1843
Christening Place: Upavon, Wiltshire, England
Father's Name: John Bailey
Mother's name: Ann
Cant find Stephen in 1851 as he is not with his Parents on that Census.
F/S has a John BAILEY/Ann DAVIS Marriage 1826 Upavon
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Thank you very much Trish 1120. I appreciate all the work you have done. :)
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Your welcome :)
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Hello, This is the very beginning of my searches, and my first post, so apologies in advance... There is a degree of uncertainty about everything, of course, but I think I have a trace back to John Bailey, born 1804 in Manningford, Wiltshire, UK. He married Ann who was born 1807.
I am interested in those that went before him. It appears that you might be able to guide me, so I would be grateful for any help you could provide.
I have reasonable details of the line that came down from his son James, born 1838, who married Alice Sainsbury in 1861.
Thanks
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Hi Shillingstone,
A warm welcome to Rootschat.
As a starter, if your John Bailey is the one to follow, then he was bapt. 8-4-1804 in Manningford Abbots the s/o Thomas & Maria.
This parish is next to Pewsey and here is the possible marriage of his parents.
Pewsey;
24-10-1803 Thomas Bailey to Maria Andrews, by Banns. This entry is taken from the transcripts.
The Wilts OPC (On-Line Parish-Clerk) is a very useful site and can reached here;
http://www.wiltshire-opc.org.uk/genealogy/index.php/parish-directory
You may have to register first which is free, and there are a lot of transcripts available to view if you scroll to the bottom of the page(s).
I hope this helps.
Alan
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Hello Shillingstone
Not sure what I can tell you. I was researching for my cousin who is a Bailey. Direct line from William whose parents were Maria and Thomas. I do know three brothers came out here and settled in South Australia. When researching I decided I would look for all the children. On recollection I think I could not find one or two of the girls. But Mary Ann stayed and married in Wiltshire. Let me know what you want and I will look up whatever records I have.
John had quite a few children if I remember correctly.
I live in in South Australia so the time zone will be different.
Cheers
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Thank you ribbo39 and wentworth13. I had no record of Thomas Bailey & Maria Andrews (parents of John (born 1804) so an additional generation looks likely to have been added to my family line. I will follow the Wilts OPC. I am just beginning to see the vistas that open up when you delve into these things.
My next task is to establish the names of all Thomas & Maria's children. maybe one was Robert. I will then try to follow the lines that have descended from John's siblings. In case it is of use to someone below is a summary of the lineage from John. The line I descend from all stayed fairly local here in southern England. It is very interesting to discover that I may have relatives in Australia, especially as I have visited you a couple of times for five months in total (and, frankly, love the place!).
John m. Ann (Davis?) in the 1820's. They lived in Upavon (1851 census) and had six children: Emma (1828), John (1831), Louisa (1833), Thomas (1835), James (1838) & Hannah (DOB unknown to me).
James m. Alice Sainsbury in 1861 in the Amesbury area. They lived at the marvellous address of 'Pigsty Corner, Over Wallop' (sadly no longer in existence) before moving to Salisbury. They had six children: George (1864), Frank (1870), Kate (1873), Bessy (1878), William John (1879) & Morris (1881).
George m. Martha Alice Spratt in 1891 in the Alderbury area. I have a glass photograph of this redoubtable couple. They met whilst both working at the Laverstoke Asylum, Salisbury. They had the fashionable six children, of which three died in infancy. The surviving three were: Wilfred George (1894), Winefred Mable (1897) & Edward (1902). George was a railway porter and died 'of concussion' at an early age, so the three children were brought up in the Southern Railway Orphanage.
Wilfred & Edward had children of which two at least are still living in southern England and Yorkshire.
Thanks again for your help.
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I have a lot of information about William the youngest of Thomas and Maria's children. Also his brothers Thomas, and Stephen. They all came out to South Australia. They are brothers to Robert and John. One of the sisters Elizabeth married a Macklin from the same area and they settled in
New South Wales. Two of Robert's sons also came out. George and Christopher. Mary Ann another sister married a man called Hodge and they stayed in Wiltshire.My William was staying with them before he married Ellen Pope in WIltshire. I will type up all that I know for you. It is only recently that I have culled a lot of papers but will look again through the heaps of paper. I will let you have whatever I know. I think you will find Robert and John on census. 1841. As they were born 1809 and William was in 1830.
Good Luck
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Thank you for your very interesting information, wentworth13.
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I will start to type this. SO you will receive it in bits and pieces.
Thomas Bailey born c1780-Manningford Abbots Wiltshire
sp. Marie Andrews (born c1782 Manningford Bohune Wilshire) married 24/10/1803
John Bayley B 1804 Manningford Bohune spouse Emma West
Robert Baily b1806 Manningford Bohune spouse Maria Holloway married 25/10/1828
Rosanna Bailey b1809
Ann Bailey B1811
Elizabeth Bayley born 6/10/1815 Wilsford Wiltshire Died 17 Oct 1869 Beechworth Victoria Australia
spouse Isac Macklin b1809 Manningford Bruce WIltshire married 21/ Mar 1834 Died 18th Jun Tallangatta Valley Victoria Australia
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1. Mary Ann Bayley 1 was born in 1818 in Wilsford Wiltshire England. She was christened on 23 Aug 1818 in Manningford Abbotts Wiltshire. She died in Apr 1899 in District of Pewsey Wiltshire England.
Mary Ann was 80 years old when she died.
Mary married Thomas Hobbs in 1842 in Hilcott Wiltshire England. Thomas was born in 1819 in Hilcott Wiltshire England. He died in Jul 1901 in District of Pewsey Wiltshire England.
Sources
1. Wiltshire records.
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1. Stephen Bayley 1 was born in 1821 in Manningford Bohune Wiltshire. He was christened on 6 May 1821 in Manningford Abbots Wiltshire. He died on 23 May 1896 in Adelaide South Australia . He was buried in West Terrace Cemetery.
Stephen married Eliza Somerset Cook on 1 May 1845 in Holy Cross Wilcot Wiltshire. Eliza was born in 1824. She died on 8 Jun 1859 in Morphett Vale South Australia.
Sources
1. Wiltshire records.
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1. Thomas Bayley 1 was born in 1826. He was christened on 22 Oct 1826 in Manningford Abbots Wiltshire.
Thomas was living with John Hobbs and wife on the 1851 census. This may have been his sister's
in laws as she married Thomas Hobbs and interesting William was with them at the time of the census.
He came out on the ship BLUNDELL 11/10/1856 to Adelaide
Thomas married Ann Bennier on 19 Jan 1860 in St Mary's Sturt South australia. Ann was born on 9 Oct 1839 in Germany. She died on 25 Jun 1920 in Magill South Australia.
Sources
1. Wiltshire records.
1. William Bailey 1 was born in 1830 in Manningford Wiltshire England. He was christened on 11 Jul 1830 in North Newnton Wiltshire England. He died on 24 Jul 1897 in Royal Adelaide Hospital. The cause of death was Lacerated leg, Pulmonary Congestion, Exhaustion Royal Adelaide Hospital. He was buried in 1897 in West Terrace Cemetery.
Grave is situated TSE V1E Plot 32. There is nothing to see. Just blank ground. No headstone
William married Ellen Pope 2 daughter of John Pope and Elizabeth Giddings on 10 Apr 1852 in Parish Church of North Newnton Wiltshire. Ellen was born on 2 Jun 1833 in Hilcot WIltshire. She died on 22 Oct 1900 in Adelaide. She was buried in West Terrace Cemetery.
Sources
1. Pewsey Wiltshire Church Records.Pewsey marriage transcrips. Though not 100% sure this is the likely marriage of them.North Newnton Baptisms Wiltshire.
2. Pewsey Wiltshire Church Records.
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Not sure whether this is of use to you. Maria Andrews was baptised on 10 Mar 1782 in Manningford Bruce. Her parents are a tad confusing as they had aliases. Robert Andrews married Elizabeth Huntley on 11 Dec 1781 in Manningford Abbotts. Thereafter they used both Andrews and Huntley as surnames. Maria's siblings were Jane Huntley baptised on 07 Dec 1783 in Manningford Abbptts and Stephen Huntley baptised on 27 Nov 1785 in Manningford Abbotts. Jane is listed as Jane Andrews in the Bishops Transcripts.
Robert Huntley alias Andrews was buried in Manningford Abbotts on 25 Sep 1839 and his wife Elizabeth was buried in Abbotts on 28 Oct 1787. She was listed as Elizabeth Huntley,wife of Robert.
Re- Thomas Bailey, he was baptised in Pewsey on 10 Apr 1785. His parents Stephen and Mary had already had a son called Thomas five years before who must have died.
Apologies if you already have this!
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Thanks for that. I will update the information. As you can see the Bailey name was spelt differently quite often. I have not looked at the Bailey's for quite a while. It is amazing how much you can find now. I do like the Wiltshire opc. I will send more of William's if you wish. Also if you look on the web for Isac Macklin you will find the family of Elizabeth. She had quite a few children. You will also find Christopher Bailey son of Robert on it. He married one of his cousins.
Great to hear from you ;) ;) ;)
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My pleasure. Pleased that you like the Wiltshire OPC site too. It's first rate and we're all volunteers. I'm the online parish clerk for three Pewsey Vale villages and know the Manningfords well. My 3 x great grandmother Anna Roberts was born there. I don't have any Manningford or Pewsey Baileys in my tree,although my 6 x great aunt,a farmer's daughter from Burbage, married a Bailey from the Chute branch.
I have access to a fair amount of bmds for the Pewsey Vale area and,also,my husband's family's line in Downton. Let me know if I can look up anything for you.
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Thank you for your info wentworth13 and lulubird. I am a novice and have not yet explored the OPC. I am a Bailey direct descendant from John Bailey (bap. 8th April 1804...thanks to info wentworth13 gave me). I live in Chichester W Sussex so plan to explore the Manningfords soon.
John was the eldest child of Thomas Bailey & Maria Andrews. Their children were the generation that split up, some off to Australia and a few remaining in the UK. An interesting development.
I am now on the hunt for info on Stephen Bailey and Mary as they are my 5x Great Grandparents.
Regards,
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Hi Shillingstone,
Stephen Bailey married Mary Brabham 19-6-1795 in Pewsey By Licence.
Details of the licence read;
Stephen Bailey, labr, Pewsey to Mary Brabham, sp, Pewsey with Bondsman; John Oram, Collar Maker, Pewsey dated 18-6-1795
You could ask if they are both of Pewsey, why marry by licence? I don't know the answer.
Alan
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HI Lulubird
Can you find the death dates for Thomas and Maria?. I thought I had them. I seem to remember that they were paupers. Not sure now where I saw that.
Also do you know what a Wiltshire Removal Order is?
Shillingstone you will be interested in the death dates also. You will also see that I have no info for Rosanna and Ann.Anne. I think Rosanna may have gone to America. But could not confirm it.
See what you are letting yourself in for. One thing leads to another and you are off on another tangent. Makes life interesting. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi,
The FamilySearch.org has a few Thomas Bailey deaths for Pewsey from 1851 - 1859 (there may be more but I didn't look past the first page;
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Athomas~%20%2Bsurname%3Abailey~%20%2Bdeath_place%3Awilts~%20%2Bdeath_year%3A1840-1880~%20%2Brecord_country%3AEngland
Sorry about the long address but have lost the "shrink link".
If you change the name to Maria there is a death for 1854 - a possibilty as the wife of Thomas
With regard to Removal Orders, have a look at this page;
http://www.genguide.co.uk/source/settlement-certificatesexaminations-and-removal-orders-parish-amp-poor-law/173/
Hope this helps.
Alan
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Hi again,
The burials listings for the Manningfords and Pewsey post-1837 are not fully transcribed online as yet,to my knowledge. They are held at the Wiltshire Archives in Chippenham and you would need to email them. They are very helpful, for a fee. As Alan very kindly said, it looks as if Maria Bailey died in the Pewsey registration district in 1854. If she were my direct great ancestor,I would order her death certificate from the General Records Office. It would give you her place of death as well as date and cause and also whether she was the wife or widow of her husband.
There are several possibilities for Thomas Bailey in the Pewsey reg. district. I think that the 1851 one was a chap in Enford, so can be written out. The other two, for 1852 and 1859, are possibilities and Maria's death cert. should give you a pointer as to which is your chap.
Both Thomas and Maria seem to be elusive in a search of the 1841 census. There was a Thomas, aged 50 and a wheelwright, living with two other wheelwrights in Manningford Bruce in the 1841 census but no sign of Maria and it's a common name. There are no Baileys of any spelling in Bohune, Abbots or Pewsey in 1841 (not even the workhouse!). I think you may have found out that Thomas and Maria were paupers from the 1851 census when they were living in Bohune and he is listed as "pauper,former ag lab". They were obviously "on the parish" by then and accepted as such by the Poor Law overseers,which may mean that they had been resident for the required period. They would have been helped while living in their own home. Alan's link to an explanation about entitlement is very good. No parish wanted to be liable for needy poor who did not qualify according to the rules in Alan's article. Even very sick people would be transported back to their previous parish of entitlement.
Hope this helps a little. I'll get back to you if I find anything else relevant.
Linda
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Thanks for info. ;) ;)
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Name: Thomas Bailey
Titles and Terms:
Titles and Terms:
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1841
Event Place: Wilsford, Wiltshire, England
Residence Note: Manningford Bohun
Gender: Male
Age: 55-59
Age (Original): 55
Occupation:
Relationship to Head of Household:
Institution:
Birth Date:
Birth Year (Estimated): 1782-1786
Birthplace: Wiltshire
Ship Name:
Schedule Type:
Registration District: Pewsey
Book Number: 16
Sub-District:
Parish: Wilsford
County: Wiltshire
Page:
Page Number: 1
Line Number: 18
Registration Number: HO107
Piece/Folio: 1186/4
Affiliate Record Type: Household
GS Film Number:
Digital Folder Number: 101721155
Image Number: 00188
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Thomas Bailey M 55-59 Wiltshire
Maria Bailey F 55-59 Wiltshire
Stephen Bailey M 20-24 Wiltshire
Thomas Bailey M 15-19 Wiltshire
William Bailey M 12 Wiltshire
John Bailey M 2 Wiltshire
Citing this Record:
"England and Wales Census, 1841," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M732-5JV : accessed 8 May 2016), Thomas Bailey, Wilsford, Wiltshire, England; from "1841 England, Scotland and Wales census," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : n.d.); citing PRO HO 107, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey.
This is the census record in 1841.
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Hi Wentworth,
Thanks for that. It has rather opened up a can of worms! I see that your post came from FindMyPast. I was using Ancestry to try to find Thomas and Maria. I tried them by name in Wiltshire in 1841. No joy,so I input Manningford Bohune into the 1841 census collection and up it came. I went through every name and there were no Baileys listed so I presumed that was that.
It would appear that Ancestry has missed the first two pages of the Manningford Bohune 1841 census and heaven knows where the other pages are after pages three and four! Their census starts with John and Emma Ogland who you will see at the top of the page after that featuring the Baileys on FindMyPast. It makes one wonder how many times this may have happened and could explain the non-appearance of a number of people on our trees.
Interesting stuff.
Linda
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HI Linda
I knew I had seen it but I have only had FindMyPast for a little while and that was not where I saw it first.
I am sure there is a lot wrong with some of the data because as you say it is in one place and supposedly should be the same in another. They vary a lot. I try them all.
I believe Thomas died either 1845 or 1848. I cannot find him on any 1851 census. Maria the same. Sometime between 1841 and 1851. The three boys showing in 1841 all came out to South Australia.
As for the baby JOHN no idea. Perhaps a grandson. Not delving into that.
Thanks for your interest
Pat
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Hi again,Pat,
Both Thomas and Maria were alive and living together in Manningford Bohune in 1851. Check under Maria BAILY born 1783 in the FindMyPast 1851 census. He's listed as 66,born in Pewsey, and a pauper and former ag lab and she's listed as 68 and born in Manningford Abbots. Hope you find it!
Linda
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Thanks for that. I should have looked at all the spelling of Bailey. The name has stumped me quite a few times.
Thanks
Pat
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HI Shillingstone
Found this. As you can see the marriage took place 10years after Thomas's birth. Have found a few interesting things. Will attach so you can see.
Name: Stephen Bailey
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Mary Brabham
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 18 Jun 1795
Event Place: Hampshire, England
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I03915-4
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 1278952
Reference ID:
Citing this Record:
"England Marriages, 1538–1973 ," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N61X-F26 : accessed 11 May 2016), Stephen Bailey and Mary Brabham, 18 Jun 1795; citing Hampshire, England, reference ; FHL microfilm 1,278,952.
Also you have seen the Sarum Bonds Marriage. I read that even if this was recorded they may not have married then. It depended a bit on money.
Also I saw that Mary and her mother were on Wiltshire Removal Orders. Is Hampshire in Somerset?
I will try and copy that record for you.
First name(s) Mary
Last name BRABHAM
Birth year -
Removal year 1772
Removal day 14
Removal month May
Age -
Place PEWSEY
Removed from place Pewsey
Removed from county Wiltshire
Removed from country England
Removed to place Wivelscombe
Removed to county Somerset
Removed to country England
Notes dau of Joseph & Mary
Head -
Household 4033
Wiltshire & Swindon record office ref A1/130
Record set Wiltshire Removal Orders 1670-1890
Category Institutions & organisations
Subcategory Courts & legal
Collections from United Kingdom
Wiltshire Family History Society
I think this is enough for you to digest. If I find anything else I will let you know.
Pat
copyright Wiltshire Family History Society
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Thank you Pat.
Mary Brabham seems to have had an eventful life. To check my understanding, this is the sequence so far:
- date of birth currently unknown
- Removed on 14th May 1772 from Pewsey, Wilts to Wivelscombe, Somerset (I wondered if the subcategory 'Courts & legal' has further significance, probably not)
- gave birth to Thomas prior to his baptism in Pewsey on 10th April 1785
- married Stephen Bailey ten years later on 19th June 1795 in Pewsey, by Licence (thanks to info from ribbo39). The alternative listing of their marriage as 18th June 1795 in Hampshire (the neighbouring county of Hampshire is not far away from Pewsey today and may have been a lot closer then due to periodic boundary changes. I will check this).
- date of death unknown
The gap between Thomas' birth and Mary's marriage seems unusually long. There are also no records yet of any further children (apart from your reference to another child, also called Thomas who died prior). That also seems unusual from a time when large families were the norm. But understandable, of course.
Regards,
Please send my regards to your 'Bailey' cousin, the descendant of William Bailey 1830-94. I am planning to visit Australia & NZ in Jan/Feb 2017. It would be fun to meet.
The above reminds me that I met Jack Brabham at Goodwood motor racing circuit some time ago. Have his signature on a ten pound note somewhere. Wonder if he was related to Mary?
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Yes a bit of a mystery.
I was thinking did Stephen marry the Mother?. Her name was Mary and there was a removal order for her. Wife of Joseph. That was in 1772. It is a pity the removal orders had no age for either of them. Perhaps Joseph died.
Where was Stephen born? He must have had brothers and sisters.
I will start looking at the counties that surround Wiltshire as I am sure in those days they had to walk.
Also Joseph was not a name that seemed to be used a lot. Very few were called it.
I have seen the birth of the first Thomas in 1780. Spelt Bayley in reg. Bailey in BT.
The Pewsey Baptism's are not up on the Wiltshire OPC.
Will tell my cousin about this when I next speak to her.
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Started looking and found the following. You need to check the Somerset records because that is where Mary and Joseph appear to have come from.
Joseph BRABHAM (wife was Mary) and his son Joseph removed 14 May 1772 from Pewsey to Wivelscombe
MARY BRABHAM was buried 3 April 1772 Wivelscombe Somerset
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Hi to all regarding Robert and John Bailey, sons of Thomas Bailey and Maria Andrews. Robert was the father of Christopher Bailey, my great grandfather who sailed to Sydney, Australia with his brother George in 1849. I am currently writing the Bailey family history which I have ample knowledge of and hope to publish. Christopher married his cousin Emma Macklan whose parents Isaac and Elizabeth Bailey also sailed on the ‘Whitby’ in 1849, to Port Phillip Melbourne. The Bailey families all resided in Wiltshire.