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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: scotiagirl on Saturday 26 April 14 03:41 BST (UK)
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Good morning. I'm totally new at this but here goes... I am researching my great uncle, JOSEPH RALPH WATSON, born October 23, 1883 in Hull, England. He was the eldest son of Joseph Watson and Lavinia Sanderson. He was going by the name of Ralph Beverly Watson when he married Beulah Bahnsen in Ottawa, Canada on January 2, 1915. I have some information on his service with the Canadian Expeditionary Forces during WW1 and his subsequent discharge. He was living in Vancouver, Canada in 1919 but after that, he seems to have disappeared. Across page 1 of his military service record, "deceased 17-11-57" is written. I can't seem to find any documentation corroborating that death date. I haven't been able to find any death notice for him in Canada and was wondering if he might possibly have returned to England in 1920 or so. Would anyone have any information about him from 1920 on? Thanks.
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Young Joseph was actually born in Kirk Ella - near Hull!
1891 census: Class: RG12; Piece: 3909; Folio: 57; Page: 12
Farmhouse, Low Gardam, Cherry Burton, Yorkshire
Watson, Joseph Head M 33 Farmer b Kirk Ella
Watson, Lavinia Wife F 27 b Hull
Watson, Joseph Son M 7 Scholar b Kirk Ella
Watson, Dorothy E Daughter F 2 b Cherry Burton, Gardam
Watson, Cyril D Son M 1 b Cheery Burton, Gardam
Ridd, Clara Servant F 30 Governess b Hull
Cooke, Jane Servant F 27 House Maid b Hull
Kell, Mary Servant F 24 Cook b Foggathorpe
Kay, Mary Servant F 16 Nurse b Dalton Holme
Crawford, George W Servant M 25 Groom b Swanland
And a birth registration:
December qtr 1883
Sculcoates district vol 9d, page 145
Watson, Joseph
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I'm having trouble finding any link of this Joseph Watson to "Ralph"? ???
1901 census: Class: RG13; Piece: 4453; Folio: 34; Page: 13
Melbourne, Yorkshire (East Riding)
Dales, Arthur C Head M 32 Butcher b Leeds
Dales, Elizabeth C Wife F 31 b Cowthorpe
Dales, William R Son M 4 b Melbourne
Dales, Arthur C Son M 3 b Melbourne
Watson, Joseph M Servant Butcher's Assistant b Cherry Burton
Looking at Outgoing Passenger Lists, there are 2 possibilities:
1912, Joseph R Watson (28) - previous permanent residence Ireland
1910, Joseph Watson (26), Scottish
I can't (as yet) see a suitable crossing to Canada?
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Hello and welcome :)
1901 Joseph M Watson, Cherry Burton is likely to be the son of William and Ann of Burton Cherry/Cherry Burton.
There is a Ralph Beverley Watson here https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32032/page/8818 and this chap is on London Electoral Registers to 1930
I offer them as they are the only mentions of the name I can see.
Did Ralph and Beulah separate/divorce?
Is there a civilian occupation on his military record?
Heywood
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1901 Joseph M Watson, Cherry Burton is likely to be the son of William and Ann of Burton Cherry/Cherry Burton.
Ah yes! :-[
Joseph Morley Watson, is with his mother Ann in 1911, and with both parents in 1891.
My mistake! ;D
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It is a mistake that has been made in published trees also and there is also this substantial thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=533187.0 which I haven't the time to read and absorb fully which also links Joseph M Watson to Joseph Ralph.
I can't see Ralph/Joseph etc in 1901 yet.
I assume Cyril D is Douglas? He is mentioned in the tree as being the contact for Ralph.
Heywood
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The London Gazette extract I posted earlier was re a business partnership between Ralph ... And Norman Anderson Peake. There is one such name in Canadian Soldiers WW 1 :-\
Here is another mention of Ralph
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32620/page/1667
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I "hope I'm doing this right. This is my first reply. Thanks KGarrad for that info. The birth registration is particularly good. As to the "Ralph" link, Joseph R Watson first appeared on a "Detroit border crossing and passenger and crew list, 1905-1957" with father Joseph R and brother Douglas. Then in May 1912, Joseph Ralph Watson, born 1884 in England, is listed in "Border Crossing: From Canada to U.S, 1895-1956". As to the Joseph M Watson, I thought the handwriting was a little squiggly and maybe the M was an R? I have a Joseph Watson, age 27, born 1883 travelling Liverpool to Quebec on June 3, 1910 in "Canadian Passenger Lists, 1865-1935".
Thanks also to Heywood for the possible link with Norman Anderson Peake. I'll definitely check that out. And very interesting that there is a Ralph Beverly Watson in the London Electoral Registers to 1930. The story on this side of the pond is that Ralph was a heavy drinker and died around 1920 in Vancouver, Canada. Beulah apparently went out to visit him in Vancouver around that time and her sister said that shortly after Beulah returned to Ottawa, Ralph died. I've never been able to find any information on that. Also according to his attestation papers, his occupation was a salesman when he enlisted.
Thanks to everybody for all this great information.
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I've sent a PM to one of the Watson "experts" on that other thread. mentioned by Heywood.
She will be taking a look tomorrow!
Apparently (if we have the right Joseph!) father Joseph eloped to Canada with his wife's nurse?! :o
It's well worth reading that other thread. Watson family linked to Kirk Ella Farm for many, many years.
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Yes I had heard that Joseph Watson Sr. had taken off to Canada with the nurse/maid. There's a lot of information on that other thread about Joseph Sr. and I'm trying to get through it all. Unfortunately, when I get to Joseph Watson Jr (or Ralph Beverly Watson as we know him), things start to get a little sketchy. Thanks again for all your help.
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Hello again,
It is interesting that Ralph Beverley Watson disappears in 1919 from Canada and then the same name appears in London in 1920 - the dissolving of the partnership with Mr Peake.
I wonder where Joseph was in 1901? I can't see him anywhere.
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Hi back.
Could you tell me where I could find that information about the dissolution of the business between Watson and Peake? As to where he is in 1901, there's a Joseph M Watson in the 1901 England Census working as a servant in the household of one Arthur Dales in Melbourne. He is born in 1883 in Cherry Burton, Yorkshire. I'm wondering if this isn't Joseph (R) Watson Jr. Another entry for Joseph Watson (Sr) lists daughter Dorothy and son Cyril but Joseph Jr is missing from this entry. Someone else doing family trees over here made this connection. Thanks.
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Sorry, one last silly question. How common would the name Ralph Beverley be?
Thanks
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Hi back.
Could you tell me where I could find that information about the dissolution of the business between Watson and Peake? As to where he is in 1901, there's a Joseph M Watson in the 1901 England Census working as a servant in the household of one Arthur Dales in Melbourne. He is born in 1883 in Cherry Burton, Yorkshire. I'm wondering if this isn't Joseph (R) Watson Jr. Another entry for Joseph Watson (Sr) lists daughter Dorothy and son Cyril but Joseph Jr is missing from this entry. Someone else doing family trees over here made this connection. Thanks.
The London Gazette, that Heywood provided the link for, shows the legal notice. Not sure there would be anything else?
As I said in reply #5, and Heywood said in reply #4, the Joseph M Watson is not your chap!
I found Joseph M with family in other censuses.
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Yes, as KGarrad says, the Joseph M Watson is, I'm sure a different man. I explained earlier who he is.
I linked to two London Gazette notices. I am not sure but I think the second one may be a bankruptcy notice. Perhaps KGarrad knows?
I entered the name Ralph Beverley Watson into the search on a research site I use and the London Electoral lists is the only showing. If you are able to do so, it might be worth looking at the Peake connection.
There is a town called Beverley just a short distance from Kirk Ella, I wondered if that was why he chose that as his name, although at that time it was a recognised male name rather than female.
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I linked to two London Gazette notices. I am not sure but I think the second one may be a bankruptcy notice. Perhaps KGarrad knows?
Thanks, Heywood!! ;D ;D
The sub-heading on the previous page is "Notices of Release of Trustees".
I'm not all that familiar with bankruptcy procedures, but I think it's when someone appointed as a receiver has sold enough assets to pay off the debts; then he applies to the court to be released from his duties?
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Thanks ;)
Scotiagirl,
As you can see in the other thread, reference is made to Lavinia's will and you may have seen it. The address is Beverley rather than the nursing home but of course the will may have been drawn up at any time in her married life.
I have only ever sent away once for an ancestor's will but it was informative because it was annotated with addresses etc for the beneficiaries.
Heywood
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On previous thread, there is the story of the nursing home etc but it also seems that Lavinia may have only been there temporarily (my thoughts) as a result of the birth of son Harold.
1911 looks to have Harold and Dorothy and Enid living in Beverley. Perhaps They were living with Lavinia when she died.
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Hi everyone
Well my head is spinning once again with these Watson's ::)
scotiagirl
Have you obtained your Ralph's birth certificate detailing his parents as Joseph Watson and Lavinia Sanderson ???
Also are you stating that Joseph Dec Q 1883 Sculcoates (inc Kirk Ella) the son of Joseph Watson and Lavinia Sanderson is your Ralph Beverley Watson ???
bendywendy
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scotiagirl
I think we have met along the way somewhere else, your "handle" is familiar to me do you use this name on any other sites ???
You state that Joseph jnr is your great uncle, is this from his full siblings in England or his half siblings in Canada, its just that I am in contact with some rellies from the England side ???
A possibility that Joseph Watson jnr emigrated to Canada 1910
Joseph Watson
Date of Arrival:3 Jun 1910 -- Ship:Virginian -- Port of Arrival:Quebec
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Roll: T-4767
If this entry is him then it states he is Married, 27 yrs, British Bonus Allowed, which means he was given land to farm, Battlefirs ? bad writing at end ?? Sask = Saskatchewan - Cow Farmer Farmer been in this occupation 1899-1904 C of E.
Again if this is him then what happened to the wife, he could have gone ahead to get home sorted then the wife to follow.... maybe this is why he changed his name, did he "elope" like his father did and leave a wife behind ???
A search for a marriage, Joseph Watson 1901-1910 East Riding of Yorkshire returns possibility of 2
Rose Ann White or Ellis Boyes @ Beverley Dec Q 1904
1911 census, no Rose Ann White fits
1911 census, Ellis Watson living with father Boyes, married 6 yrs, children born 2, no occupation, brn Beverley
Father: Bryan Boyes, 64, Oil & Colour Merchant, Own Account, born Beverley
Brother: Bryan Boyes, 24, as above, brn Beverley
Sister: Edith Mary Boyes, 27, no occ, brn Beverley
Son: Joseph Boyes Watson, 5, brn Beverley
Dau: Joan Watson, 4, brn Didsbury, Lancashire
2 Servants
23 Woodlands, Beverley
NOTE: there is NO Watson husband listed in the census above for with her.
Without you obtaining the marriage certificate you won't know who the father's name is for this Joseph Watson.
I have looked for Passenger Lists for Ellis, Joseph Boyes and Joan, there is none.
I have come across a tree for this family, there is very little info for either parent and no parents for either.
I have contacted the tree owner to ask what they know of Joseph Watson, I will post on here when I have a response.
A little further onwards, I cannot find a suitable death for an Ellis Watson 1911 >> but I can find a marriage which could be her:
Ellis Boyes to Henry Samman @ Sculcoates June Q 1914 (did her and Joseph divorce, would have been very costly then so I doubt it)
The name Ellis Boyes is very rare, only 1 birth registered anywhere:
Birth: Ellis Boyes @ Beverley, Dec Q 1882
Death: Ellis Samman @ Holderness, Mar Q 1965, 82 yrs c1883
Birth: Henry Samman @ Skirlaugh, Jun Q 1881
Death: Henry Samman @ Holderness, Dec Q 1960, 79 yrs c1881
It looks like there were no children born to this marriage unless there is a problem with the spelling of the surname Samman ???
I have checked the 1916 Sasketachewan census and there is a Joseph Watson, C = Military, Medicine Hat, Labourer, Male, Single, 33, England, Anglican, emigrated 1910, all questions are in French so I don't know what is asked for rest.
Year: 1916; Census Place: Alberta, Macleod, 05; Roll: T-21952; Page: 5; Family No: 62.
Address: 8, 26, 4, Macleod
Sub District Desc: Townships 7 and 8, whole or fractional, ranges 24, 25 and 26, W. 4. M., west of the Belly River
Household Names:
William N Damon 59
Alice Damon 55
William Edgar 22
Joseph Watson 33
Robert N Brown 30
scotiagirl, will this fit in with the information you have for him, for this to be him ???
bendywendy
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Bendywendy,
May I just say that this is very interesting and thanks for posting the info.
As you may have seen, I flagged up the earlier thread with your very hard work there so scotiagirl can read through it ;)
Just as a matter of interest, the RBW in the electoral lists, seems to have a wife, Janet Watson with him in the last entry I can see - 1930.
With regard to Norman Anderson Peake, there is a bit of info on a published tree and he too is in Wandsworth at similar times to Ralph.
Heywood :)
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Heywood
I hope scotiagirl can get her head around the other thread ;D
These Watson's are very interesting, but could history repeat itself twice, a father and son eloping and leaving spouses and children ::)
I have had a reply back from the Tree owner re Ellis Boyes, they have no idea of what happened to her husband Joseph Watson, but is going to ask family if anyone can remember anything.
bendywendy
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Yes, there was a divorce http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C8007183
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BINGO.... wow so this Joseph Watson could really be the correct one then, thanks heywood.
b.
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And Ellis became Lady Ellis Samman ... which is just by the by but I like it. :)
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well, I can say my face is a picture.... put it there heywood... ;D
maybe that is how she obtained the finances for a divorce, would have been extremely costly for her especially with him abroad.
So what do we know about Lady Ellis Samman, was she of Leconfield ???
b.
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I was thinking that it was of little consequence but if it is the right Joseph, there were children involved, of course.
Probate for Bryan Boyes (father?)'s will was granted to Dame Ellis Samman (wife of Sir Henry Samman, knight).
Yes she was of Leconfield.
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Just as an aside, Ellis's husband, Sir Henry Samman, succeded to the Baronetcy created for his father, Sir Henry Samman (1880-1928).
Henry, the father, set up a Fund to encourage the study of business methods and languages - the Sir Henry Samman Endowment Fund.
He was Managing Director of the Deddington Steamship Company, and Mayor of Beverley.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Samman
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Yes, sadly children involved again. Another Will, interesting.
I saw that earlier about the Samman Fund, did think it was possibly the same family.
Ellis reminds me of Dorothy, Joseph's sister, she got the right man Fawcett Pudsey and family and lived the high life too.
Found this in newspaper archives:
The Hull Daily Mail, Friday February 15 1901
More from the Front
A large company assembled at the Railway Station on Thursday to witness the departure of four men who have volunteered for service with the Yorkshire Yeomanry. They were Harry Samman son of Captain Samman, Joseph Watson son of Joseph Watson of Gardham, Charles Spencely and Hugh Bell, the last two who were employed at Mr Arthur Wilson's hunting stables.
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Strange coincidence again of the Samman and the Watson families.
Gardham the place for this Watson family
Now a query comes up here, if Joseph Watson was away from Feb 1901, then that Joseph Watson residing at Melbourne on 1901 census may not be him, unless he was back home for when the census took place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Yeomanry
The second contingent .... I wonder if Joseph was shipped back as "unfit" as this could put him as being in Melbourne 1901 census ???
bendywendy
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The Joseph M Watson, in Melbourne in 1901, is a complete red-herring!
Joseph Morley Watson can be accounted for in both 1891 and 1911, born in Cherry Burton and with parents William & Anne (1901) and widowed Ann (1911).
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oh silly me you had already stated that bit..... so most likely then Joseph was with the army in Boer War then at the time.
From newspaper reports it looks likely the Boyes and Samman's were related from what I can see on the highlighted info Ellis Boyes and Bryan Boyes were siblings, but it costs money to view he full report:
Hull Daily Mail East Riding of Yorkshire, England
11 Apr 1929
ALDERMAN MOURNED
Rowland (daughter), Mr W. Rowland (son-in-law), Mr Bryan Boyes (brother), and Mrs Boyes, Lady Saniman (niece), and Sir Henry Samman, Bryan Boyes, jun. (nephew). Tbe County Council was represented by- Sir Alexander Macdonald tho Isles (vicechairman), Mr J.....
Hull Daily Mail East Riding of Yorkshire, England
8 Dec 1931
AVIATORS AT THE ALTAR
packed church testifying to the popularity of the bridal pair. The bride was Misß Ellis Joan Watson., the daughter of Lady Samman, and step-daughter of Sir Henry Samman. of Browsholme, Cottingham, and the bridegroom Flight-Lieut. Brian Elgar Moody, only son of....
Hull Daily Mail East Riding of Yorkshire, England
2 Jan 1935
LADY SAMMAN'S SON WEDS
LADY SAMMAN'S SON WEDS Hull Bride Going to Tanganyika CHARMING SCENES AT NEWLAND MR JOSEPH BOTES WATSOX, Browsholme, Cottingham, son of Lady Samman, was married at St. John's Church, ?Sewland, to-day, Miss Betty Andrew, daughter of Mr and Mrs Arthur Ernest...
The transcription for the highlights leaves a great deal to be said about :-\
bendywendy
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Sorry, just running out the door but yes, on Ralph Beverly Watson's enlistment papers, he says that he has previous military experience: he's a South African veteran (yeomry). Thanks.
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Getting closer. :)
I had wondered if he was involved with the Boer war to explain his absence.
They were married in Beverley and the first child was born there but the second child was born in Manchester. Unfortunately, no baptism online.
I also had a bit of a panic that Ellis had married the other Joseph but I think not.
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Looking good everyone, I think the newspaper reports tie the families together.
But, why did he change his name so much, after all Ellis had found him for the divorce, the only other
possibility was so his children could not find him ???
Now time for my bed, as these Watson's are making me head spin ::)
bendywendy
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I have found a WW1 photograph online of the East Riding Yeomanry, which has been identified through the cap badge.
bendywendy
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As the father was Joseph, he may have been known as Ralph. His brother Cyril D, seems to have been known as Douglas.
Perhaps he added Beverley because of the place for some reason :-\
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http://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/imperial-yeomanry-by-company/1946-imperial-yeomanry?showall=1
scroll down to:
Second Contingent. Spring 1901. 16,597 men, of which only 655 re-enlisted from First Contingent, formed in UK, some forming new companies, others replenishing old companies as they returned from South Africa.
Apr 1901. As the First Contingent Imperial Yeomanry returned from South Africa, the part-time Yeomanry Cavalry in the UK were reorganised as 'Imperial Yeomanry' in mounted infantry regiments of 596 all ranks (four squadrons and a machine gun section). They were equipped with carbines and bayonets, but swords were later permitted for certain ceremonial and escort functions. Some of the new regiments were raised from South African veterans.
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The medal entitlement can be found in the book "The Roll of the Imperial Yeomanry, Scottish Horse and Lovat's Scouts. 2nd Boer War. Being an alphabetical list of the 39,800 men of these volunteer forces who enlisted for the 2nd Boer War. Listing regimental details, clasps to Queen's South Africa Medal and casualty status". Compiled by Kevin J Asplin. Second edition available from DP&G Publishing, PO Box 186, Doncaster, S Yorkshire, DN4 0HN.
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http://www.britishmedals.us/files/iyw.htm
Watson, J. Orderly I.Y. Hospital, Pretoria
Watson, J. 27126, Sergeant 42nd Coy., 12th Bn. I.Y.
Watson, J. 21091, Squadron Sergeant Major 59th Coy., 15th Bn. I.Y.
Watson, Joseph 26347*, Corporal 1st Scottish Horse
Watson, Joseph 25813, Trooper 11th Coy., 3rd Bn. I.Y.
and if he changed his name whilst serving, one of these entries could be him:
Watson, R. 27201, Trooper 41st Coy., 4th Bn. I.Y.
Watson, R.J. Lieutenant 24th Bn. I.Y. Staff
bendywendy
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Name:
WATSON, RALPH
Regimental Number:
63
Date of Birth:
23/10/1883
Reference: RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 10144 - 1
Item Number:302006
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=302006
click on icon above image for pages 1 and 2
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Name:
PEAKE, NORMAN ANDERSON
Rank: LT
Regimental Number:
891
Date of Birth:
18/10/1894
Reference: RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 7679 - 44
Item Number:572389
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=572389
click on icon above images for pages 1 and 2
bendywendy
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Hi all you hard-working little beavers....
I think one of my posts got lost. I was trying to weed out the Watsons in western Canada around 1916. One census report for Saskatchewan 1916 has Joseph Watson, 39, born in Ontario (Definitely not my Joseph Watson). The 1916 Census (Alberta) has a Joseph Watson, 33, single, labourer, immigrated from England 1910 and at the time on military service at a camp in Medicine Hat, Alberta. Don't think he's my Joseph Watson because my Joseph Watson should be in France at that time. Then there's the Joseph Watson, married, age 27, born about 1883 who, according to the Canadian Passenger Lists, 1865-1935, arrived in Quebec, Canada from Liverpool on the "Virginian" on 3 June 1910. This Joseph Watson was supposed to have farmed in England (looks like from 1899-1904) and is headed for Battleford, Saskatchewan to farm. I always thought that this was my Joseph Watson but now I'm not so sure. For one thing, my Joseph Watson Jr. wouldn't have been farming in England in 1901 because he was in South Africa. Any thoughts on any of these?
Hello heywood
You described the marriage of Joseph and Ellis in Beverley. Do you have access to the marriage certificate? Does it give Joseph's parents' names?
O.K. Gotta go. My brain is completely fried. Thanks for everything everybody!!
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You would have to send for the certificate. Unless there are Parish records somewhere but I can't see any.
December quarter 1904. Beverley volume 9d page 221. Ellis Boyes and Joseph Watson
Bendywendy,
I wonder if there was a marriage announcement in the paper and a divorce report?
Scotiagirl,
You would need confirmation of the above to make a definite connection to Ralph. You have the Canadian side to 1919 and then I would say it very probable that the entries in London to 1930 are him also.
Heywood
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I have searched and searched the newspapers for the marriage notice, but cannot find anything in either of their names. I have searched into 1905 just in case they married at the end of December. Their first born Joseph Boyes Watson is reg Sep Q 1905 @ Beverley and their is no mention of his birth either, I am wondering if this was a "quick marriage", if you look at the dates for marriage to birth it is possible and maybe this is why there is no marriage or birth notice in the newspaper. Also there is no birth notice for daughter Ellis Joan born Jun Q 1907 Chorlton, Lancashire.
scotiagirl
Why was Joseph in France 1910 and how do you know he was or should have been ???
If you have information to his whereabouts at anytime its best if you can state this as it saves us a great deal of time searching for information.
You also need to obtain a copy of the Divorce between him and Ellis Boyes, which is held at National Archives, Kew which heywood found and put the link up yesterday, it could give details as to his occupation and place of abode etc..
bendywendy
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Hull Daily Mail East Riding of Yorkshire, England
27 Sep 1930
Humberside Echoes
ater—especially in the Humber. * * * double Engagement. Photo Miss Ellis Joan Watson, who i engaged to Mr Brian E. Moody, son of and Mrs C. H. Moody, of Ripon. - Miss Watson keen tennis player and has played the Yorkshire trials. She recently took up flying....
The Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer West Yorkshire, England
26 Sep 1930
COURT & PERSONAL
Joan Watson, daughter of Lady Samman and step-daughter of Sir Henry Samman, Bart., of Cottingham, to Mr. Brian E. Moody, son of Dr. and Mrs. C. H. Moody, Ripon.....
Hull Daily Mail East Riding of Yorkshire, England
8 Feb 1937
BIRTHS, MARRIAGES, DEATHS, IN MEMORIAM NOTICES, and CONDOLENCES
Feb. 7th. Welham Lodge. Newland Park, to Mr and Mrs J. B. (Skidder) Watson (nee Betty Andrew) a son.
Hull Daily Mail East Riding of Yorkshire, England
27 Sep 1930
Humberside Echoes
brother and sister Mr J. R. Watson and Mr Miss Ellis Joan Watson, the son and daughter of Lady Samman and step-son and step-daughter of Sir Henry Samman, of Cottingham, near Hull. The son, Mr J. R. Watson, known as Skidder, is to marry Miss B. Dawkins
The Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer West Yorkshire, England
26 Sep 1930
COURT & PERSONAL
announced of Miss B. daughter of Mr. Dawkins, Senior District Officer of Moshi, Tanganyika, and Mrs. Dawkins, to Mr. J. B. (Skidder) Watson, son of Lady Samman and step-son of Sir Henry Samman, Bart., of Cottingham, Yorkshire. The wedding will take place in
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Here is the info re ordering a copy of the divorce papers
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/recordcopying/
As bendywendy says, it could provide useful info re his whereabouts and occupation etc.
However, that is provided we have the right Joseph. :-\
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I think this is as far as we can go with this, there does not appear to be anything else relating to any of the names that has not already been found.
scotiagirl keep us informed please.
bendywendy
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Hi bendywendy
No, sorry for the confusion. I didn't mean to say that Joseph was in France in 1910. I was referring to the Joseph who appears in the Saskatchewan census for 1916 and is listed as married and immigrating to Canada in 1910. I don't think this is my Joseph (Ralph Beverly) because my Joseph would be in France in 1916. Could the other Joseph Watson be the Joseph Watson who married and divorced Ellis Boyes?
I've also found the microfilm copy of the Detroit Border crossing report for my Joseph R. Watson. He crossed on May 24, 1912. At the bottom of the document there is an entry for "seaport and date of landing and name of steamship" (probably to Canada) and it is filled in "Quebec 6-1-06 ss Virginian". He's listed as single, an insurance agent, 28 years old and born in Beverly, England. He lists Toronto, Ontario as his last permanent residence. He lists his father Joseph R Watson, 332 Mimico Ave Toronto as his Canadian contact, and his destination address as Chicago, Illinois to his brother, Douglas Watson, 39 Ulster Ave. So if this Joseph came over in 1906, it's unlikely that he's the Joseph who married Ellis and fathered the two children.
I've found a copy of the passenger list for the June 1 1906 trip of the Virginian from Liverpool to Quebec but I haven't been able to find Joseph Watson on it. It's pretty bad handwriting but I'll try again.
I've been through all the Canadian provincial and national census reports for 1911 and can't find my Joseph either. Maybe, being a salesman, he was on the road? I've found Joseph Sr in 1911 but my Joseph isn't with him. I don't know where he was living between 1906 and when he crossed the border to go to his brother's place in May 1912. Maybe I'll try the Toronto telephone directories.
To all
I still wish I had been able to find a death notice or record for him (which started this whole line of enquiry). It's still a mystery but it seems that maybe he did return to England after the war and go into business with that other chap. And maybe got married (although I have no record of him getting a divorce from Beulah. Her story was that he had died). Lots of unanswered questions but thanks to everyone for all the time and effort you put into this for me. It was very much appreciated.
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I need to check what address his father was residing at, Mimico rings a bell for some reason, but then I have done research for other folk in same area, so gets a bit confusing at times. I will re-read the info for the other Watson thread and see what addresses were found.
As for the Joseph that sailed 1906 tis very possible it is him, he married 1904 to Ellis Boyes and by this time 2 children had been born.
The marriage cert could state his father's name and the divorce records could give other information, I think this contact I have re Ellis Boyes may well obtain these, hopefully some information may come my way, I will keep you posted.
Now I think I should try and get some sleep... walking the boards is my "minds favourite hobby" when I want to sleep.
bendywendy
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I thought previous postings had said that the 1911 census said that Ellis Watson had been married 6 years (therefore married in 1905) and she had Joseph Boyes Watson, age 5 (therefore born around 1906) and Joan Watson, age 4 (therefore born around 1907). This was sort of pushing me towards thinking that the father was not my Joseph Watson. Also, the Joseph Watson arriving in Canada in 1906 is supposed to be single and an insurance salesman.
Oh well, enough for me for today too.
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The column on the 1911 census asks how many COMPLETE years has the present marriage lasted?
So if it says 6, then the marriage took place in 1904! ;D
Actually, if you want to be precise, as the census was taken on 3rd May 1911, the marriage would have taken place between 3rd May 1904, and 2nd May 1905! ::)
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I think the details may be there already but
Marriage: October - December quarter 1904
Birth: Joseph Boyes Watson July - September 1905
Birth: Ellis Joan Watson April-June 1907
The second birth would be the doubtful one if he sailed June 1906
You would need to discount this chap really and the births or marriage would probably be the best.
Then if it was him, the divorce papers would hopefully give more information.
I realise you only wanted a death but there is reasonable evidence that he was in London so that is a bit more info.
Heywood
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Good morning everyone
From what I can find out Ellis Joan Watson was born 6 Jan 1907, so this would have made Ellis pregnant in June 1906 when this Joseph Watson sailed.
b.
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The tree says January but the registration is the following quarter. :-\
Just noticed too that on the tree Joseph's year of birth is 1880 which seems to be based on the age at divorce proceedings -33 yrs in 1913.
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Tree holder has told me there is unknown areas, I wonder if Ellis Joan was registered later for some reason ???
I believe tree holder is going to obtain the marriage cert and the divorce doc's, the only problem with these latter ones which are at NA is that I know from a few weeks ago I tried to obtain a copy of a divorce and was told that I cannot have one as it means a member of staff having to go through the whole file and they are not in alpha/date order !!!!! I was told I would have to go look myself, now I don't know if this relates to all these divorce files or just the one I required a copy from, I was annoyed as the info stated I could obtain a copy ???
Does seem a strange coincidence for this Joseph Watson not to be the same JW that went into the Yeomanry with Harry Samman who she later married and whether these JW are one or the same including the Ralph and Beverley names too.
It really is a case of obtaining the relevant certs and going from there.
This Joseph Watson is as interesting as the other Watson saga.
Now for housework.
b.
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Thanks for the update. I do hope we get some info soon. ;)
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I've also found the microfilm copy of the Detroit Border crossing report for my Joseph R. Watson. He crossed on May 24, 1912. At the bottom of the document there is an entry for "seaport and date of landing and name of steamship" (probably to Canada) and it is filled in "Quebec 6-1-06 ss Virginian". He's listed as single, an insurance agent, 28 years old and born in Beverly, England. He lists Toronto, Ontario as his last permanent residence. He lists his father Joseph R Watson, 332 Mimico Ave Toronto as his Canadian contact, and his destination address as Chicago, Illinois to his brother, Douglas Watson, 39 Ulster Ave.
I have had another look at this Border Crossing, see info below, father is just Jos Watson, there is something else written at an angle to the rest, looks like farming, but I cannot be certain. On this doc it dosen't show when he arrived in Canada or his brother Douglas or an address, is there another doc ???
Border Crossings Canada to US 1895-1956 - M1464 - St. Albans, Vermont, 1895-1954
Joseph Ralph Watson
Arrival Date: May 1912
Port of Arrival: Detroit, Michigan, USA
Residence Country: Canada
Age: 28
Birth Date: abt 1884
Birth Country: England
Gender: Male
Race/Nationality: English
Record Type: Manifests
Line Number: 19
Now this date 1906 raises a question, was father Joseph Watson in Canada 1906 before he left UK 1907 with Alice ???
see Watson link http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=533187.54 Page 7
and...
according to what broadgate has put on this link today father Joseph Watson returned to UK 1908 after his wife Lavinia's death ... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=533187.144 Page 17
I haven't found any Passenger Records for Joseph Watson snr for these crossings, so this causes problems as to whether these two Joseph's and Douglas are the same family as who we thought they were, but lets not discount them yet, Joseph Watson & Alice wasn't all that good at covering their tracks and we haven't started on tracing Douglas yet, who may well prove to be the key to these two Joseph's ::)
Furthermore I have created another thread on Canada board asking for info regarding who was at 332 Mimico Ave, Toronto.... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=685491.new#new scotiagirl are you able to assist with finding this information please ???
I have also asked broadgate on the Watson thread to ask William in Canada if he has any knowledge of his grandfather Joseph Watson residing at 332 Mimico Ave.
broadgate has added some photographs of Alice on the Watson thread if anyone would like to look at them.
scotiagirl, I know you was hoping for a death but we have to find the right Joseph Watson then we may be able to find his death.
bendywendy
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hi bendywendy
I'm not sure which border crossing document you're looking at. I have two. I'm not sure how to quote the source information but I'll try this:
Original data:
Card Manifests (Alphabetical) of Individuals Entering through the Port of Detroit, Michigan, 1906-1954. Micropublication M1478. RG085, 117 rolls. ARC ID: National Archives at Washington, D.C.
The document itself is a microfilm of what looks like a typewritten card. In the top right corner it is typed "copied from BSI records 5-24-12
" (maybe border services?). On the card, he gives his name: Joseph R. Watson, place of birth: Beverly England, age: 28, sex: M, marital status: single, Occupation: insurance agent, Race: English, Nationality: Canada, last permanent residence: Toronto, Ont., Canada, name and address of nearest relative or friend in country whence alien came: father, Joseph R. Watson, 332 Mimico Ave., Toronto, Ontario, Canada, Ever in US: no, Destination and name and address of relative or friend to join there: Chicago, Ill., brother, Douglas Watson, 39 Ulster Ave, (description of appearance), Seaport and date of landing and name of steamship: Quebec, 6-1-06 ss Virginian, Detroit 5-23-12 cp
The other document I have (and which I think covers the same crossing) gives the source citation (not sure what this is) as: National Archives and Records Administration; Washington D.C.; Manifests of passengers arriving at St. Albans, VT, District through Canadian Pacific and Atlantic Ports 1895-1954, National Archives Microfilm Publication: M1464, Roll: 180. The source information is ancestry.com Border crossings: From Canada to US, 1895-1956, Provo, UT, USA and original date: Records of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, RG 85, Washington D.C., National Archives and Records Administration. The title at the top of the microfilm page is "List or manifest of alien passengers applying for admission". The entry for Joseph Watson is as follows: Family name: Watson, given names: Joseph R, age: 28, sex: M, married or single: single, calling or occupation: insurance agent, race or people: English, name and complete address of nearest relative or friend in country whence alien came: father Jos Watson, 332 Mimico Av (Mimico?), Toronto, Ontario, final destination: Ill, Chicago (unfortunately) I couldn't print the rest of the document. I'll have to ask for it again but that is the gist of what I have for the May 1912 border crossing.
What makes you think that father Joseph might have been in Canada in 1906?
I haven't been able to find any evidence either of passage records for Joseph Sr for 1908.
As to Joseph Jr following his father back to Canada (after Joseph Sr. visited England in 1908 after his wife died), if my information is correct, it looks like Joseph Jr came over first.
I hope this isn't too confusing....
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Hi scotiagirl
What makes you think that father Joseph might have been in Canada in 1906?
You have clarified the dates for Joseph jnr of which I cannot find, so this does make Joseph jnr in Canada before his father.
According to the other thread for Mimico address, the only Joseph Watson in Mimico has been found on 1911 census as Joseph Watson and Alice.
I have the newborn grandson today, but I am going to see what I can find for brother Douglas.
bendywendy
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This is to confirm that Joseph Watson and Alice first settled in Toronto at the address you have identified and that his eldest son did cross to Canada and stayed a while before moving onto Vancouver. Joseph senior and Alice eventually moved to Niagara Falls where they lived for the rest of their lives.
Hi Mike:
Grandfather Joseph Watson & family lived in Mimico. In fact Dad was born in Mimico if I am not mistaken.
Alice is Grandmother's name. Our father's name is William Gordon Grey Watson and our aunt is Zena Margaret. So the Children's names are similar. The census takers could have made a mistake in getting the children's names correct.
Cheers.
Bill
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thanks broadgate and William, tis as I thought but always worthwhile checking again. Still searching for Cyril Douglas or Douglas as he is named on brother Joseph's border crossing, cannot find anything for Douglas in USA or Canada :-\
b.
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hi broadgate
The recollection that the eldest son (Joseph Watson jr.) crossed to Canada and stayed with Joseph Sr and Alice for a while before moving on to Vancouver. Could that have been when he returned from WW1? I did have an entry in the Vancouver 1919 city directory that shows a Ralph B Watson, employee of General Supply renting at 1176 Haro. That address also shows up on Ralph Beverly Watson's service record. After 1906 border crossing, the next time I see Ralph (Joseph jr) is when he's getting married in Ottawa to Beulah Bahnsen. On the marriage affidavit, he gives his residence when married as Detroit. I'm checking that now.
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I haven't been able to find any Joseph Watson that fits in the US 1910 census in Michigan. Will keep looking.
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Tried all combinations for Joseph Watson jr/ Ralph Beverly Watson against the US 1910 census with no luck. Maybe being a salesman, he was here and there and everywhere and Detroit just happened to be his latest (temporary) location? Will keep looking.
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Hi all.
I thought I'd try to get a handle on Ralph Beverly Watson by seeing if there was any information on his daughter, Phyllis Beverly Watson. According to Ralph's wife Beulah's sister who put together a sort of family history (dated 1992), Phyllis was born on 24 April, 1914 in Minneapolis, Minnesota, US. I'm not too sure about this date as this sister also wrote that Ralph and Beulah were married January 2, 1913 yet the marriage affidavit I have clearly states January 2, 1915. According to the narrative, after Phyllis' birth, Beulah left Ralph in Minnesota (he had been sent there by his employer) and returned to Ottawa to live with her family at 77 Second Ave. Ralph followed "shortly afterward" having lost his job and enlisted in the Canadian Army in 1915. The timeline just doesn't fit.
When Ralph returned from the war, they lived briefly in an apartment on Bank St. near Gladstone in Ottawa but Ralph continued to have drinking problems. Beulah moved to Nicholas Street, Ottawa with Phyllis. The story goes that Ralph is living in Vancouver when Phyllis is 4 years old. That would be 1918 according to the family narrative but this doesn't fit with Ralph's service record which states that he's bound for Canada on Jan 11, 1919 after the war. It didn't work out for Ralph and Beulah I guess because she was thinking of getting a divorce when, according to the story, Ralph died. (That's either 1919 or 1920). It now seems that this is suspect too.
Anyway, I've tried to no avail to find Phyllis Beverly Watson (born between 1913 and 1915) in Minnesota or Michigan. According to the narrative, Phyllis married Phillip Taft Davis probably in Ottawa on June 19, 1936. I can find no record of this either.
More dead ends....
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Hi
Have you tried to find a birth for Phyllis in her mothers maiden name just in case she was illigitimate.
Also I think I am correct in stating that in USA the BMD indexes are not transcribed and one has to search manually through the relevant district / county etc., in some states there is a 100 year law of confidentiality. I could be wrong but I know it is something along these lines, hopefully someone knows the answer to this.
Also remember what was written by Beulah's sister is by the sister not Beulah, she may have thought she knew the facts but didn't and / or got dates and ages mixed up also how old was this sister when she wrote this information.
Did Phyllis Beverley Watson have children, if so are they still living ???
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/United_States_Birth_Records
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/United_States_Marriage_Records
If you haven't got this info:
Philip Taft Davis born 7 February 1911 Ottawa, Carleton, Ontario, Canada
F. A Mayno Davis M. Adele Sylvain
Reg No:015185 GS Film No:2424647 Digital Folder No:004530262
Ontario, Canada, Catholic Church Records (Drouin Collection), 1747-1967
Death: 17 Feb 1911
Name: Phillip Taft Davis
Place: Ottawa, Ontario
Date: 20 May 1970
Age: 59
Parent/s: Albert Mayno Davis and Adele Sylvain
Cemetery: Beechwood
http://geneofun.on.ca/names/photo/697461
Also baptised under this heading: Ontario, Canada, Catholic Church Records (Drouin Collection), 1747-1967 St Patrick, Ottawa,
Cannot find a marriage for him either :(
Do you have contact with the Watson side that could help you with more definite information ???
bendywendy
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Also I think I am correct in stating that in USA the BMD indexes are not transcribed and one has to search manually through the relevant district / county etc., in some states there is a 100 year law of confidentiality. I could be wrong but I know it is something along these lines, hopefully someone knows the answer to this.
Every state has its own rules. Some have certificates or indexes online, and others don't.
A helpful site with a pretty comprehensive, but not overwhelming, list of what's online is http://www.deathindexes.com/sites.html
Minnesota has a birth index here - http://people.mnhs.org/bci/
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shellyesq, many thanks for the information
b.
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shellyesq,
Thanks so much for this information. Nothing is popping up yet for the woman I'm looking for but I still have a few other spelling variations to try. Thanks again.
On another note, I did find a sort of record for the death of Ralph Watson. Library and Archives Canada has a microform digitized index of "Veterans Death Cards: First World War". Ralph Watson shows up there but, as luck would have it, there is no information filled in for "died at", "next of kin", "address", "remains buried in" or "grave location". The date of death is given as "17-11-57". These cards were supposed to included those deaths that were reported to Veterans Affairs up until the 1960s. Maybe Veterans Affairs can help me fill in the blanks as somebody had to report his death.
Thanks everybody.
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http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/contact
b.
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Hello All!
I am a complete beginner to chat rooms and forums but I am compelled to reply having just found all your posts on the subject of Joseph Watson. I'm afraid I have arrived rather late to the party but I might be able to be of help, albeit limited since the family were banned from all mention of his name... He is an extremely close relative of mine but I'm not sure how much to divulge on the web.
I have a copy of his marriage certificate in front of me. He was married to Ellis Boyes on 1st November 1904 at St Michael's Church, Cherry Burton. He was 21 and she was 22. He is described as a Coal Agent residing at Gardham, Cherry Burton. His wife is from Beverley. Joseph Watson (father) was described as a Tenant Farmer and Bryan Boyes, Ellis's father, as a Paint Merchant. The certificate does not state Joseph's middle name.
I can confirm that this couple had two children: Joseph (Skidder) Watson b.1905 (I think) and Ellis Joan Watson (known as Joan) b.1907
I have somewhere a faded photograph of Joey (as he was known) and Ellis and their two very young children in a room in their house in Beverley. Shockingly for those days, he deserted Ellis around this time and "ran away to Canada" leaving her traumatised, degraded and penniless. Hence in the 1911 census she has returned to live with her father (her mother, Florence, had died aged 29).
I'm afraid I know nothing about Joey's life after he left, as I have explained, but I can certainly fill in information about Ellis and their children. [Sir] Henry Samman (Harry) had been a childhood friend and indeed a friend of the family. I believe he had always had his eye on Ellis but she was completely smitten with Joey, against warnings in letters I have in my possession. She married Harry in 1914.
Hope this gives some clarification. I am more than happy to help further. I confess I am still reeling over all the information you have supplied re Joseph Watson and am immensely grateful to you all. All my life I have wondered what happened to him and have drawn blanks whenever I have tried. Thank you!
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Great information westwood 21. Welcome aboard. I'm still trying to make the definitive connection between your Joseph Watson and my Ralph Beverly Watson. On the marriage certificate that you have, does it state his mother's name? Thanks.
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Hi Scotiagirl,
This is very exciting for me too! The answer is no, but I've always known we were related to the Sandersons, so there is your answer I think....
I am trawling through all the information that you lovely people have come up with and I can see quite a few things I know the answer to. Do keep asking the questions!
I know that Harry Samman was in the Boer war, but I didn't know that Joey went with him. Love rivals.... Fascinating.
I am guessing, because it wasn't allowed to be mentioned, that the divorce between Ellis and Joey was automatic because of his desertion/disappearance? Also, I guess that he may have changed his name so that he would be difficult to contact? He was quite a naughty boy by reputation, but I don't know what he had done to turn so many people against him prior to the marriage because of the veto in mentioning his name. I'm sorry to talk about him like this, but we are both related to him so I feel a bit of entitlement. I saw the consequences.
Keep going, you are doing a fantastic job and I would so love to put all these ghosts to bed.
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Hi Westwood21
Welcome, this is a fascinating family and so many twists n turns and secrets.
With these threads getting ever longer I have to keep going back and re-reading ::)
What else do you know of the wider Watson families can you add anything ???
Kind regards
bendywendy
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Hi bendywendy,
Thanks for the welcome. Delighted to be aboard ship!
It wouldn't take Sherlock Holmes to guess about which side I know the most. As you know, I am keen to go backwards, but I can tell you about Joseph and Ellis's offspring if it's of interest. Skidder and Betty had three children, John, Michael (Mickey) and Christine Watson. Joan Moody (Watson) and Brian had two, Peter and Virginia. I could put meat on the bones here, but I guess it's not what you are after. I know nothing of Joseph Watson's siblings. Ellis tore up every photograph but I have just one or two of Joey that escaped and the odd one that I think was taken at their house in Gard(h)am, possibly showing sisters (unattributed). I'm sure Scotiagirl is far more genned up.
You have uncovered so much between you all and I need to read and digest all 23 pages that I have downloaded. I've just spotted something I can clear up. Joan Watson was born in Didsbury (for no known reason - Ellis passing through - but never explained) on 6th January 1907 but someone made a mistake and she was registered as being born on the 16th. Re the Yorkshire Yeomanry entry, four men were mentioned as volunteers (Boer War) - Henry Samman, Joseph Watson and two other employees of Arthur Wilson's hunting stables. Arthur Wilson Filmer was a good friend of the Sammans. I knew him. I'm sure the information is correct or, rather, what you were looking for. He owned Tranby Croft, a house at Anlaby near Hull which is where the famous Baccarat scandal involving the Prince of Wales took place.
I've now reread the whole lengthy and fascinating discourse. My helpfulness only extends to Joseph's fairly brief first marriage and it's progeny, and it seems he and his father left Beverley far behind to make their lives overseas with new families. You have all laid so many ghosts for me - huge thanks - but maybe I am better to stick with the eccentric step-grandfather that I grew up with, loved and admired. Another book here to be written one day!
And a big Hello to all my new-found rellies....
Thanks again, all.
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Hi westwood21
Well, I'm still not 100% sure that we're talking about the same Joseph Watson/Ralph Beverly Watson but....
I have a document that says he arrived in Quebec in June 1906. Was your Joseph Watson still in England when his second child was born in 1907? Thanks.
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Hiya,
I think I can pretty definitely say yes. I'm sure my mother, Joan (let's come clean here...) would have alluded to his absence at the time of her birth in Jan 1907 in later years. She was a very open character. I remember her telling me about a time in Cottingham when (as a child) she was aware of being watched covertly from someone across the road who she was certain was her absent father. Cottingham is between Beverley and Hull and Ellis and Harry had a house there for a time (must have been after 1914 so maybe Harry was away at WW1). If that is so, it puts Joseph back in England at some point, but I have no date and no method of verification. However, my strong hunch is that my grandfather is the Joseph on the Virginian in 1910 travelling from Liverpool to Quebec. The timing sounds right and I would put my money on it.
I apologise for being all guesswork, but it makes sense to me that he might have returned from the Boer War in 1902 (or before), married Ellis in 1904, had Skidder in 1905 and Joan in 1907, and then absconded to Canada in 1910. I know you want proof but that's what I would work on personally. Good luck. Keep me posted - please!
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Well, well, well... So things might be getting a little clearer now. I had pretty much eliminated the Joseph Watson who arrived in 1910 as my Ralph Watson for a few reasons. First was the document I mentioned before that listed the time of my Joseph's arrival at Quebec as June 1906. In the few documents that I have seen for my Joseph (aka Joseph Ralph, then Ralph Beverly), he's listed as single. The Joseph that arrived in 1910 is listed (in the Canadian passenger lists 1865-1935) as married and gives his destination as Battleford Saskatchewan and that he intends to farm out there. So if your Joseph Watson is the one who arrived in 1910 and is the same one who was married to Ellis, then it would seem that your Joseph is not the same as my Joseph Ralph Watson/Ralph Beverly Watson. Would you agree?
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Sorry, just running out the door but yes, on Ralph Beverly Watson's enlistment papers, he says that he has previous military experience: he's a South African veteran (yeomry). Thanks.
Hello again,
What fascinating developments. Whilst I agree that there could still be doubts, I also think there are still reasons to think that the two gents could be the same; the above being one of the reasons.
I presume that Joseph is named as father on Joan's birth certificate. He may have visited Canada and returned.
Interestingly, I thought I would search on a pay site ( no subscription though) and there is a a Ralph Beverley Watson in New Zealand electoral rolls in 1935. It could be very possible that there is more than one RBW but the London one disappears after 1930. :-\
Heywood
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Sorry, been a bit tied up and I feel I need to go through all the 23 pages of previous posts yet again with the latest developments in my head. I'll have a search for Joan's birth certificate - not certain that I have it. The thing that makes me question whether the two Josephs are one and the same is that I don't recall the name Ralph being mentioned and it doesn't appear on his marriage certificate (to Ellis Boyes). I'm not ruling it out though. BTW, I am positive that my Joseph Watson was Joan's father.
The married Joseph who sailed to Canada in 1910 intending to farm ticks boxes for me, given that I believe it would be unlikely for him to have been divorced from Ellis at that time and he came from a farming background. Also I have the faded photograph of him in Beverley with Ellis and his two young children.
If I have further views after I've reread through all the posts (with the possibility that the two Josephs are not one and the same), I'll get back.
Curiouser and curiouser.....
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Good morning. I'm totally new at this but here goes... I am researching my great uncle, JOSEPH RALPH WATSON, born October 23, 1883 in Hull, England. He was the eldest son of Joseph Watson and Lavinia Sanderson. He was going by the name of Ralph Beverly Watson when he married Beulah Bahnsen in Ottawa, Canada on January 2, 1915. I have some information on his service with the Canadian Expeditionary Forces during WW1 and his subsequent discharge. He was living in Vancouver, Canada in 1919 but after that, he seems to have disappeared. Across page 1 of his military service record, "deceased 17-11-57" is written. I can't seem to find any documentation corroborating that death date. I haven't been able to find any death notice for him in Canada and was wondering if he might possibly have returned to England in 1920 or so. Would anyone have any information about him from 1920 on? Thanks.
Just going back to the beginning. I notice from a tree with this information that his birth details - 1883 and Hull is based on his WW 1 information and his marriage. Is this confirmed?
I think I am going round in circles and perhaps need to reread.
From memory, Scotiagirl, you have your Mr Watson with his father and brother in Canada who are the same father and brother to Westwood's Mr Watson in Yorkshire ???
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Hi,
I can confirm that my grandfather, Joseph Watson, was born in 1883. My head is buzzing from searching through old papers and correspondence but I know I came across a note from my great aunt, Jessie Boyes, saying that Joey (Joseph) was born in Oct/Nov/Dec 1883 so October 23rd looks good. I am now thinking that my Joseph and Scotiagirl's Joseph must surely be the same because I absolutely know my family is related to the Sandersons (i.e. Lavinia Sanderson, Joseph's mother). I couldn't find Joan Watson's birth certificate but I did find her marriage certificate to Brian Moody and her father was named as Joseph Watson (frustratingly, again, no middle name).
I see Joseph Watson Snr was a witness, amongst others, at Joseph's marriage to Ellis Boyes in 1904 (marriage certificate).
I'm sorry to lower the tone but I found a letter from Jessie Boyes (see above) to her niece Joan Moody (Watson) talking about the father she barely knew and it says there was a secret drink problem with his mother that was visited upon the son. I've run out of time right now but I think that one of the posts refers to drink. I am merely trying to find links (clutching at straws?!). I have also found a very endearing illustrated (by Joey) card written to Ellis in 1904 when they were banned from seeing each other. Jessie says they were very much in love - well, that's a relief!
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Hi Westwood21
Sorry, I thought you had said that you didn't know who the mother of your Joseph Watson was. If it was Lavinia Sanderson then that clinches it. Lavinia Sanderson is my Joseph Watson's mother and it is stated as such on several documents. So we are related after all!!! I'm still having trouble with the two dates of arrival in Canada. On documents I have, Joseph Ralph lists himself as an insurance salesman. He never claimed to be a farmer. I'm not sure about the Joseph Watson (married) that came over in 1910 bound for Battleford Saskatchewan to farm. Wow... I'm going to have to go over my notes again.
Heywood
Yes, I have that information from those documents and also a 1912 Detroit Border Crossing document which says he was born around 1884 in Beverly, England.
Must fly but I'll get back to you soon.
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Hello heywood.
That's very interesting information about the New Zealand angle. After all I've read lately about Ralph Beverly Watson/Joseph Watson I wouldn't be at all surprised if he wasn't the same RBW. Much appreciated.
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Hi Scotiagirl,
I have no documentary proof regarding the name of my Joseph's mother, only the father (Joseph Snr) who appears on Ellis and Joseph's marriage certificate. All I can tell you is that I remember being told on more than one occasion that we were related to the Sandersons.
However...I've just spent a long time searching through Elllis's old diaries and photograph albums. I think this is a eureka moment. I've just found a faded photo of a mother and three children sitting on the grass with a large house in the background. Ellis has written below it "Joey, Dolly, Mrs Watson, Enid [at] Gardham". Dolly must surely be Dorothy.
There's also a photo "Joey, Skidder, Ellis [at] Leven 1909".
Joey appears (fondly!) in the 1903 diary and there's a mention of Mrs Watson (which of course doesn't help me with proof of her being Lavinia Sanderson). No mention of Mr Watson that I can see anywhere. Just conjecture but had the father done a runner by then and that could be why Ellis's family were so concerned about the liaison? Oh, can't be that because of course he witnessed the marriage in 1904.
I'm afraid I'm very short of time just now and there's so much to re-read and research. I'll keep going. I'm short on documentation but not bad on primary source material (written anecdotes).
What do you reckon, Scotiagirl - are we related?!!!
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Sorry, Heywood, not meaning to ignore you - just new to this chatroom stuff and all the workings and etiquette. My Joseph was definitely born in 1883 which is proved by the aforementioned marriage certificate to Ellis Boyes. I don't know the ins and outs of all this excellent research you are all doing through the archives, but Beverley in my book always has three 'e's in it. Would that make any difference to the search input? Doubt it.
Sincere thanks to one and all. I've had a lifetime of unanswered questions up until a few days ago to having quite a good handle on the mysteries of what happened to my forebears. The finer details would be wonderful, but if we never get there, you've given me so many lines to ponder upon and I'm so grateful.
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Hi westwood21.
It's looking more and more like we are related. I too have read references (in a family history put together by the sister of Joseph's (second) wife Beulah Bahnsen) that Joseph had a drinking problem. In fact, the story goes that Joseph's affluent parents sent him to Canada when he was 21 hoping that in a new country he would overcome his addiction to alcohol. I wouldn't put too much store in the age of 21 if it doesn't fit the timeline. I've come across several discrepancies in the family history so far already. Still, tt seems Joseph might have made several trips to Canada. I didn't see anything in his WW1 service record that would make me suspect that he had a drinking problem but so be it. You mentioned that the drinking problem of the mother was visited on the son. Are you saying that Lavinia had a drinking problem? Did you know that Beulah Bahnsen collected all the letters that Joseph Watson aka Ralph Beverly Watson wrote home from the war and had them published in a book called "Letters of a Canadian Stretcher Bearer"? I would love to get a copy of the photo of Joey, Ellis and the two children as well as Joey and Ellis's marriage certificate. And maybe the photo of Joey, Dolly, Mrs. Watson and Enid at Gardham. If you'd like to do that, I could send you a personal message (I haven't done that yet on this board but I can try) and maybe we could exchange email addresses. It sounds like you have a veritable treasure trove of material there. Well, that's all for me for now. Must fly.
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I didn't feel that I was being ignored. :)
I am glad that all seems to be sorted re the identity and hope that sometime, you will both conclude the search with finding Mr Watson.
There may be some truth in that date of death but where in the world?
Best wishes to you both :)
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When I embarked upon the request for Watson information a few years ago by Broadgate I never imagined what we would have found and how one family can have so many twists n turns n skeletons.
Any chance you can upload some photographs to both this site and the other Watson thread please.
I still believe Joseph is the same person as Joseph Ralph / Ralph / Ralph Beverly etc., as a point of interest regarding how to spell Beverley, here in Yorkshire, which is pronounced Yorksha, Beverley is pronounced Bev-ley or Bev-ler in a more broader accent (my dad calls it this) so this could be how Joseph sounded it and thus it was written this way, maybe this is yet another clue to this being the same person as only a local Yorksha person would shorten it.
bendywendy
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Apologies, folks, for the delay in getting back to you. Life's gone into overdrive and I just had to work today.
Heywood -
Well, we seem to have settled on his identity but, unless I've missed something, I don't think we ever found out who Janet Watson was in your post of 27 April. You said RBW seemed to have a wife of that name in 1930! Why am I not surprised?! If that's true, then he certainly didn't die around 1920 in Vancouver.... My hunch is that he was giving everyone the slip again. He's got form on that. Of course I may have missed something because I only found this excellent forum a few days ago and I haven't had time to comb through the other Watson thread.
Again, forgive me if you've already covered this but there was a time when you were all querying Joseph's whereabouts in 1901. I'm guessing at least one of you spotted that he was in South Africa with his horse (Boer War) together with Henry Samman! I found a faded photo of the horse called something beginning with Gar... (a rip in the page). Somewhere I have a photo of Harry's (Henry's) horse called Charlie. I digress... They were in the Imperial Yeomanry:
Joseph Watson 25813 Trooper 11th Company 3rd Battalion
Henry Samman 25804 Trooper 11th Company 3rd Battalion
Anyway, I'm sure you all knew that. I confess I was amazed they were together given what I know in hindsight.
Thanks so much for everything, Heywood
Westwood
Hi scotiagirl,
Well, well, well!
Re the drinking problem emanating from Lavinia, all I can say is that I have an extract of a letter here written in later years by my great aunt Jessie (a formidable character and Ellis's youngest sister) to my mother Joan (Joseph's daughter) explaining a few things about Joey (because of course there was a complete blackout of information about her father, poor thing). I will transcribe it for you in due course.
I have another letter from someone called Ernest (haven't managed to track him down so far) written to Ellis after Joey had walked out on her and the children encouraging her to divorce "the scamp" and praising her for being so brave and stoical (my words because I haven't got it in front of me just now) throughout everything that Joey had put her through. Frustratingly he doesn't elaborate because obviously both of them know what he is talking about.
I am thrilled to hear about Beulah's book. On a Google search the author is given as R.A.L. Is this the correct book?
Re the photographs, unfortunately they are so very faded that I don't think they will scan successfully. I myself can't really see much detail - they are over one hundred years old and have moved house goodness knows how many times. Also they have escaped my grandmother's (Ellis) purge of anything and everything to do with Joey! The only reason I know who the people are is that Ellis has written the details below the photographs in happier times. Anyway, I will certainly give it a go. There's the odd photograph of Joey as a young man that has also escaped. I might be more successful there. I'll try. Joey and Ellis's marriage certificate should be fine but it's too big for my scanner so might have to come in two halves!
You can certainly have my personal email address if you send me a personal message. Everyone knows who I am anyway!!!
I'll work on all the above over the weekend, time allowing.
Do, somebody, tell me who Janet Watson is?!!!
Bye for now.
Hi bendywendy,
Re the photographs, I refer you to my post to scotiagirl. I'll do my very best.
Personally, I am convinced that Joseph Watson and Ralph Beverl(e)y Watson are one and the same person. I do still think, however, that he must have spelt Beverley with a second 'e'. All his family came from there and also the one he first married into. Forgive me if I am being a bit pedantic....
I am Yorkshire born and bred and you should probably have guessed where I come from with the moniker Westwood!! I call it Bev by the way! I don't live there any more but it is written through me like a stick of Bridlington rock, as they say, as it clearly was through our naughty Joseph/Ralph Beverley.
Thanks so much for all your hard work and...Eh oop (as my family infuriatingly say to me!)
Westwood
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No idea re Janet Watson. There are these entries on London electoral roll for a Ralph Beverley Watson
1923
18 Old Town, Wandsworth North street
Mrs Alice Stacey Occupation qualification
Mr Ralph Beverley Watson residence qualification
1924 same address
Same people plus Mrs Alice Mantle
1930
8 Gambetta Street Battersea
Ralph ....
Janet Watson qualification through husband's occupation
Is this him though?
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Oh wow! Surely it's got to be. Trouble is I don't know how to follow these leads that many of you have been so clever at doing (which is why I have never got anywhere with tracking down this elusive grandfather. I was thrilled when I managed to get a copy of his marriage certificate to Ellis from Kew, I think. I am so muddled with what I have and haven't found here in boxes, but I think I did find the original - but now where is it....?!!) I am fascinated anew. Oh nooooooo!
I have a daughter living in Battersea. This man is following me around.
Thanks so much for this. I'll see if I can work out how to take your info further.
Westwood
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I just want to add this. If he was supposed to have 'died' around 1920 in Canada, it seems perfectly plausible to me that he needed to do another runner and if it was back to England, then the timings of Heywood's findings of him living in Wandsworth/Battersea are perfectly feasible.
Did we ever find out where it was that he probably did die in 1957?
Westwood
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Hi Westwood21
Yes. R.A.L. is the right one. I managed to obtain a copy of the book from a local antique/used book store. I believe you can read it online as well. He seems like such a loving husband in many of these entries. Oh well... As to him dying in 1957... I checked with Library and Archives Canada about the entry and the genealogical consultant informed me that they had no additional records that would indicate who provided the death date to the previous Department of Veteran Affairs or where he died. I thought it strange that they would take that information without having any source indicated (rule #1 of genealogical research?) but that was what I was told.
Hi heywood
You mentioned about a Ralph Beverly Watson in the 1935 electoral roll for New Zealand... I don't suppose there was a Janet there as well? One can only hope....
Well that's it for me for now. I'm looking forward to seeing some of the photos. Hope it works out.
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Hi Westwood21
Just another thought... I only have the family history that says he died around 1920. I'm actually guessing at the exact date. The story goes that when Ralph returned from the war (1919), he was still drinking. Beulah and daughter Phyllis Beverly moved out. (Phyllis was born April 1914 according to the family history. However this same family history also states that Ralph and Beulah married in 1913 but I have the marriage document in front of me that clearly states that they married 2 January, 1915.) The story continues that when Phyllis was four (1918?) Beulah hired a detective to search for Ralph in Vancouver. (This sounds like a B movie....) Anyway they travelled to Vancouver to see Ralph, found he was still drinking and came back, intending to file for divorce. Shortly after returning to Ottawa, she received word that Ralph had died. So after jumping through all the hoops with dates and ages, my best guess, according to the family history, was that he must have "died" around 1920. Sorry, that's the best I can do. Talk to you soon.
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Hi scotiagirl
Not sure where you have checked previously, but this is a link to the British Columbia Archives online database for all provincial vital statistics, including deaths 1872-1991:
http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Genealogy/BasicSearch
Hope this helps
Heather (in Vancouver)
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I have to say that this has been a fascinating thread, indeed threads, to read and follow. Apologies if this has been done and I have missed it but might the divorce papers of Ellis and Joseph Watson be worth obtaining? I can see that this was suggested early on in the thread. A search in the National Archives site shows the divorce was in 1913.
William
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Have you found this entry on A******y for Military that shows a Ralph B Watson returning to Canada January 1919 to his wife:
Ralph B Watson, 18 Jan 1919, onboard Olympic, Arrival Halifax, Nova Scotia, Departure Liverpool, England, Roll T-14794 - Canadian Passenger Lists, 1865-1935 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA:
other info taken from the actual image:
Sgt Ralph B Watson
Original Unit CA DC - Reserve Unit CADC
Category B3 - Group 3
Reason of Return - Transferred To CEF Canada
Destined to Wife, Ottawa
bendywendy
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Divorce, I know from previously asking NA for a copy of a divorce that although it does state one can apply for a copy this actually is incorrect, one has to go to NA, Kew, London, England to view the document itself as it cannot be photocopied due to the fact that NA are not prepared to go through the bundle to locate it to then photocopy/scan an individual item :(
If someone is going to the NA maybe they would look up this item and take notes from it.
bendywendy
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Hi Scotiagirl,
Thanks for explaining what you know so clearly. The suggestion, I guess, is that Phyllis was born out of wedlock. We have no proof, as yet, that Ralph/Joseph died around 1920 which is partly why I am so interested in Heywood's findings on the London electoral roll putting a Ralph Beverley Watson in Wandsworth (SW London) in 1923 and 1924 and closeby in Battersea (8 Gambetta Street) in 1930, possibly with a wife, Janet Watson. If only we could prove that this is our chap, then his death must have been mythical.
And if he died in 1957, where? The million dollar question?
We're not finished yet!
Hi William,
Just to say that Ellis married Henry Samman in 1914 so your search in the National Archives showing her divorce from Joseph/Ralph in 1913 would seem to be correct.
Westwood21
My goodness, bendywendy, this man loves sailing..... I haven't yet obtained Beulah's book of Joseph's war letters so I am just guessing that he was returning to Canada after the war, but it didn't work out with Beulah, as Scotiagirl reports, because of his continued drinking. I want to say in his defence that he had been through both the Boer and First World Wars and dreadful trauma. Harry (Henry) Samman also took to the bottle having been awarded an MC in WW1 and been horribly shot up, losing an eye.
Westwood
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Hi hiraeth.
Thanks for the suggestion. I tried the site but unfortunately I didn't find him there. I didn't really expect to but it was worth a try. Thanks again.
hi bendywendy
I hadn't seen that entry. Thanks. I had much of the information from reading his service record but thanks for the image details. He was supposedly headed for Ottawa, to the Windsor Apts on Laurier Ave in Ottawa which is where his wife was living. Much appreciated.
Many thanks to everyone for all your help in trying to track down this elusive character. Clearly there was a lot more to him than was included in my family history book. Some not so pleasant however such is life. Maybe there's still somebody out there who knows where and when this fellow died.
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What about this headstone for 1957 - the only one I can find
http://geneofun.on.ca/names/photo/1106462
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Hi bendywendy.
I only wish this was the one but when I checked out that Ralph Watson and Mary Scott and their marriage, it lists him as being born in Caradoc Twp., Middlesex County, Ontario. Thanks anyway.
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Hi bendywendy,
I'm afraid I don't think that's our man either. Our Ralph/Joseph was born in 1883. On his marriage certificate to Ellis Boyes in 1904, he is aged 21 (she 22). I'll try to upload it to the forum later today.
Thanks for searching. I have a funny hunch that he may have died in England. I have no reason for saying that other than Heywood's finding on the electoral roll of a Ralph Beverley Watson living in Battersea, London, in 1930 - possibly married to Janet. I think this possibility needs disproving if at all possible anyway.
Westwood
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I've tried finding a marriage for this Ralph Beverley Watson to Janet as on Electorall Roll and no luck, has anyone else found a marriage that would fit in after 1920 ???
I have also searched in just Jan* and nothing, maybe if this is the same RBW he could have married this Janet in Canada, also no family trees that relate to these two.
bendywendy
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Thanks so much for trying, bendywendy. So grateful. I expect we'll get to the bottom of this mystery in the end... We now need one of Janet's relatives to alight upon the forum, just like I popped out of the woodwork at the eleventh hour!
Westwood
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He may not have been married to her. I think I did try the address before and after for a Janet in case he was just there temporarily :)
I wonder if a post on New Zealand forum referring to this but just asking for a check re Electoral Roll there 1935 would turn up anything new?
Strangely, Ancestry.com also allows a search and has NZ electoral rolls but doesn't indicate anything. ???
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Just to say that I have been unable to post the photographs of Joseph Watson and his Beverley family, plus the copy of his marriage certificate to Ellis Boyes, because my internet skills to render them down to under 500KB have proved lacking, despite many attempts. They are in .pdf form and if anyone was interested enough to see them (and skilled enough to put them on to this forum) I am happy to send them to someone's email address as attachments to open. They are not in the best nick, being over one hundred years old, but very interesting, I think.
Westfield21
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Joey Watson aka Joseph Watson jnr b.1883 Kirk Ella, Yorkshire, England
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Joey Watson, Mrs Watson (Skidder & Joans Father and Grandmother)
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Joey, Dolly & Mrs Watson @ Gardham, Yorkshire, England
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Dolly (Dorothy) Watson
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Joey, Skidder, Ellis @ Leven 1909
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Edith, Joan, Skidder, Ellis, 1910 - Edith and Ellis Boyes were sisters
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I am having difficulty uploading the marriage cert of Joseph W and Ellis Boyes, will try again later.
Westwood 21 I have uploaded 3 of the photographs that is the maximum allowed today.
Here are the links so you can see if anyone has tried to improve them:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=695991.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=695989.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=695988.0
There is a limit of 3 photographs in one week, so the others cannot be uploaded for another 6 days.
b.
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In the photograph of the children at Gardham I believe it is Gardham Hall... http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/fine-country-living-heart-Wolds/story-11952620-detail/story.html
b.
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Hi bendywendy.
Thanks so much for your help with uploading Westwood21's photos. I'm perfectly useless at that sort of thing but I have a feeling I'd better learn pretty fast. I hope somebody can work their magic on them. From what I've seen of the work of the RootsChat restorers, they're nothing short of amazing. I can't wait to see if they can help us out. Thanks again.
Scotiagirl
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If you click on the links above for the photo restorations, some kind folk have started work on them, I have left my thank you's.
b.
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Hi bendywendy,
Can't believe it! Thank you so much to you and your team of wizards. It's like being in the same room with my ancestors. Slightly unnerving when all I had to go on before were those battered and faded exhibits. Thank you again beyond words you and everyone who worked on them.
Westwood21
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If you right click on the images you can then save each image to your computer from there you can send them to an online photo lab to have them printed ;D
b.
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Those photos are fantastic!! Thanks to everyone for helping with them and of course to Westwood21 for providing them. And thanks bendywendy for the tip about getting them printed. Awesome!! What a super addition this is going to be to my scrapbook. Thanks again.
Scotiagirl
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I have already posted this but think I posted on the wrong thread.
Wow I am amazed at all the new information regarding the Watson family. Unfortunately there is no more news on my Grandmother Enid Lavinia Julia Watson married name Gilmore. She was the daughter of Joseph Watson the eloper and Lavinia and sister of Dorothy,Joseph and Cyril. Enid ( she changed her name to margaret Watson) and her future husband John William Gilmore went to Canada to stay with her father Joseph and his wife Alice for a while and had a child called Roy Edmund Gilmore. I did notice on one of the photographs there is a picture of Enid as a child with her mother and brother Joseph and sister Dorothy which is lovely as I only have one photograph of her.
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I thought I had posted also with a reference to this thread but got waylaid - too much info!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=696202.msg5396733#msg5396733
Newly started by woody with news re Janet Watson.
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A little clean for the beautiful Dolly.
Carol
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Hi Pollypush
Welcome aboard the Watson train.....
Did you know that Enid had a son that was adopted.
Also on the other Watson thread there is a photograph of Enid posted by cpncpn .. have you seen it and is it the same as yours .... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=533187.81 page 10.
bendywendy
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Hi bendywendy, I am the aunt of cpncpn, we have been in contact before but I've never posted on here.
Seeing as I seem to have come to a 'dead end' where Enid/Margaret is concerned, I thought I would have a look to see if there was any more news about her on this forum so it was nice to see the photos of her family. I had a look on the Canadian thread too which was very interesting but again nothing about Enid/Margaret. You never know who will pop up with information so I will keep on looking.
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Geesh... my heads in a whirr with these Watson's not to mention their name changes etc.. ::) ::)
Pollypush... what info are you requiring for Enid/Margaret n hubby John William Gilmore and son Roy Edmund ? Did you contact the solicitor re Enid ?
Also have you read the other thread about Joseph and another marriage to a Janet with son Peter Joseph ?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=696202.0
Nice to "talk" with you again,
b.
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We do seem to be a complicated bunch!!
Really I just want to find out what happened to Enid/Margaret, did she have more children apart from the two I know about and when did she die. I sent a letter to the solicitors but they choose not to reply.
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Ok Pollypush lets see what we can find for Enid/Margaret.
As for the solicitors it could be the time that has gone by and problems locating the file, don't give up you never know when a letter may arrive.
b.
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Everyone... we are locking the other thread for Joseph Watson and using this one instead, this saves us going back n forth between the links as it is complicated.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=696202.0
The link above will still take you to the thread and the information there but I am going to copy n paste the messages from the other thread onto here to help us with the info we have so far, I will have to type in the names of the person who has left the message:
woody16 started the thread with this message:
Hi I have been reading the Joseph Watsons from hull posts with great interest as I am related. I may be of a little help to scotia girl as my father was sent a family tree some years ago regarding the Joseph Watsons dating back to 1784 in kirkella,hull. On this hand written tree Joseph (joey) Watson born 1883 married Janet turn bull nee Grieg (his 3rd wife) born 1896-1981 they has a son Peter Joseph born 1928 who wrote the family tree I am in possession of.
As I am new to this I am unable to contact scotia girl directly so I hope she sees this and it fits with her info. I have no documents to proof this I'm afraid.
scotiagirl: Blimey! Reading you loud and clear Woody16. This is amazing. Where to begin.... welcome to Rootschat by the way. Another piece to the Watson puzzle. Of course, I'm most interested in Joey b 1883. I'll certainly have to do some digging now that we have all this new information especially about Janet. Do you know when they were married and where they were living? I'll have to digest some of this and get back to you soon. Thanks so much.
Hi woody16
I notice that you refer to Joey as Joseph Watson. Have you ever heard of him called Ralph Beverley or just Ralph? In various documents and London newspapers since 1920 he is listed as Ralph Beverley Watson. Yet he appears as Joseph Watson on son Peter's family tree? Just checking. Great information.
Scotiagirl
bendywendy: I have copied this from the other thread... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=685138.81 page 10 which mentions a Janet and info found with a wife Janet, this will make it easier for woody16 to go back and read...
No idea re Janet Watson. There are these entries on London electoral roll for a Ralph Beverley Watson
1923
18 Old Town, Wandsworth North street
Mrs Alice Stacey Occupation qualification
Mr Ralph Beverley Watson residence qualification
1924 same address
Same people plus Mrs Alice Mantle
1930
8 Gambetta Street Battersea
Ralph ....
Janet Watson qualification through husband's occupation
Is this him though?
____________________
The only birth I can find for a Peter J Watson c1928 is: June Q 1928 Edmonton MMN Watson which is of little help >:( Edmonton would fit in for a Ralph n Janet living Battersea
Surname Grieg looks Scottish to me
This could be her death:
Janet Watson @ Oswestry, Shropshire Sep Q 1981 born 19 Aug 1896 85 years
Marriage:
Janet Greig to Ralph Turnbull @ Hartlepool, Durham Mar Q 1917
Children to the marriage above:
Now they either didn't have any children or they were born far away from Hartlepool, I cannot put their names on as they could still be living
Death for Ralph Turnbull @ Durham 1917 age 64 1917... @ South Shields age 47 1920 umh :-\
woody16 anything on the tree info about this Ralph Turnbull ???
British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920
Ralph Turnbul
Birth Date: abt 1889
Place: St Oswald's, Durham, England
Age at Enlistment: 25
Marriage Date: 7 Jan 1917
Place: West Hartlepool
Document Year: 1914
Regimental Number: 51126
Regiment Name: Royal Engineers
Number of Images: 23
Form Title: Short Service Attestation
Name Relation to Soldier
Ralph Turnbull Self (Head)
Janet Greig Spouse
I don't have time now to look to see if this Ralph Turnbull died in WW1 maybe someone can search the commonwealth war graves, I will look in again later. If we can find a death for this Ralph Turnbull it gives a better indication to when Janet could have married Joseph, Joey, Ralph Beverley Watson OR if Ralph did die in WW1 did Janet go overseas ???
woody16: No nothing regarding Ralph turnbull. You have Janet's dates right 1896-1981. They had a son Peter Joseph born 1928, he married beryl Harper and they had 2 children who should be still living. The address I have for peter is London.
Thank you all for the warm welcome and for the hard work you have already done. We have loved seeing the photos from westwood21 and I am enjoying reading Joeys WW1 letters,fantastic! Westwood21 must be my fathers cusson!
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continued....
bendywendy: I have now read the WW1 Service Records for Ralph Turnbull and can state that there was a request for Separation Allowance made to Janet Turnbull the wife of No:51126 Sapper R Turnbull, Royal Engineers, on account of her Immoral Conduct. Dated May 10th 1918. Another letter states address as 38 Westmorland St, West Hartlepool 13th Feb 1917.
Ralph was charged with being: absent from his post many times over, giving false number, idling at work and being absent for ? days several times, over staying his pass several times, arrested by civilian police and regimental police, stealing, obscene language..
Petty Sessional Division of Westbury, Wiltshire.. for stealing 3 bottles of Whiskey value of 12 shillings. In his defence he stated "Not guilty. I was drunk and did not know what I did" 17th June 1915.
Statement as to a Disability 23 Jan 1919 he was living at 10 Pilgrim St, West Hartlepool, 30 yrs, Sapper No:250134. Joined up at Chatham 9th Sept 1914 his medical condition then A1. All questions asked have had 1 line drawn through both sides, nothing written, added, signed or stamped.
Upon joining he was living at 15 Catherine St, West Hartlepool. Was a Superior Rivetter.
Father is John Turnbull of above address.
Wife 138 Westmorland Street, West Hartlepool.
Marriage 7th Jan 1917 West Hartlepool
No children noted
Height 5ft 6 3/4 inch, 133 lbs, chest 38 inch + 2 1/2 expansion, Complexion Fresh, Eyes Hazel, Hair Dark Brown, C of E, Tattoo SPOT base of right thumb
Another sheet he was with 258th Tunnelling Company R.E. and he was remustered to "Sapper" as Rivetter Superior 1/8d rate of Engineer Pay effect 3rd Aug 1916.
His posting to the Railway Operating Division may now be arranged by internal transfer.
Director of Railways states he has applied to be mustered as a "Rivetter" and transferred to the Railway Company, he holds indentures for 5 years as such with Messrs Gray & Co Ltd of West Hartlepool 14th July 1916.
Director of Railways states he has passed the test and will now be transferred 3rd Aug 1916.
Several other documents etc., are in this bundle but the writing is very faded.
1911 cen sees Ralph as Ralph L Turnbull 23, single, Apprentice Rivetter at Shipyard M.Gray born West Hartlepool 1888 living with parents John J Turnbull, Plater at Shipyard born East Hartlepool 1863 and Catherine Turnbull born East Hartlepool 1864 and his siblings George C, Florance E, John J, William S & Sarah J. All living at 15 Catherine St, West Hartlepool.
1901 cen sees a Ralph Luther Turnbull, 11yrs, Inmate, General Field Worker, North Eastern Reformatory, Castle Ward, Ponteland.
A possible death:
Ralph L Turnbull @ Hartlepool, Durham, Mar 1931 aged 41 years Birth date 1890
So, did Ralph and Janet divorce ??? or did they reconcile ??? did Janet remarry before marrying Joseph Watson, maybe that is why we are struggling to find a marriage for them in England ???
heywood: There is a Joseph R Watson marriage to a Janet Turnbull 1941 in Shrewsbury :-\
Janet's death was in Shropshire and there is a Joseph Watson died 1957 Shrewsbury- birth 1883.
Could this be him? Would match the initial info re a death.
bendywendy: Death: Peter Joseph Watson .. November 2005 @ Richmond upon Thames, Surrey, 78 years, DOB 8th Oct 1927.
Marriage: Peter Joseph Watson & Beryl M Harper @ Liverpool, Dec Q 1957
Working from the info of the marriage there are no children born in that area, woody16 do you have the names of these 2 children, if you have can you PM them to me, don't put them on here as its not allowed.
Still cannot find the birth reg for Peter Joseph or the marriage of Joseph/Joey/Ralph to Janet between 1920-1927 unless they didn't marry until much later.
scotiagirl: hi bendywendy.
When you say in Ralph Turnbull's WW1 service records there was a request for a "separation allowance" are you saying that one or the other was requesting a marriage separation? I'm a little confused. In Ralph Watson's Canadian service record, there are many forms entitled "Militia and Defence, Separation and Assigned Pay Branch, Overseas Contingent" in which the "particulars of separation allowance" are listed. I assumed these were allowances given to the spouses who were "separated" from their husbands who were serving overseas. I'm thinking your "separation allowance" and the reason given are something entirely different?
bendywendy: Scotiagirl,
I think that has been misread.
The official note states that 'no further separation allowance' will be made to Mrs Janet Turnbull on account of ...
Sorry heywood is correct, my mistake.
bendywendy: On the other thread it was said that he had died 1920 Vancouver ? and this son Peter was born Oct 1927 but where, so only a 6/7 years time span, pity the 1921 census isn't out yet.
heywood: Janet's relationship with Joseph may not have begun until mid 1920s.
I wonder if the new tree has the marriage certificate and Peter's birth certificate details re Joseph's occupation?
In scotiagirl's notes, there is a mention of a death in 1957. Is that the Joseph who died in Shropshire?
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continued....
scotiagirl: Hi heywood.
My notes regarding the 1957 death..... Is this the same Joseph who died in Shropshire? Well that's the million dollar question I think. I have no idea where my information came from and nobody at Archives Canada seems to know either although it's handwritten on his service record and listed on his veterans death card file. The date of death on his service record is 17 November 1957. That's it I'm afraid. No indication of who provided that information, where he died, where he's buried or anything.
ALL MESSAGES FROM THE OTHER JOSEPH WATSON THREAD ARE NOW JUST ABOVE HERE... LEAVE YOUR NEW MESSAGES ON THIS THREAD
bendywendy
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Hi bendywendy.
Some time back you very graciously uploaded some pictures of the Watson clan provided by Westwood21 to this thread (messages #105-110 I believe). The first three you resent to the photo restoration thread with fantastic results. If you get a chance, could you please send the picture of "Joey, Skidder and Ellis at Leven 1909" for restoration? I'm not sure how this is done. Thanks a bunch.
Scotiagirl
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Very sorry, had a weeks holiday and can only upload 3 in a week, will upload the others later today.
Links to the photographs for restoration:
Joey, Skidder & Ellis Watson 1909 at Leven: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=697283.new#new
Ellis, Joan, Skidder & Edith: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=697284.new#new
Dorothy (Dolly) Pudsey nee Watson: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=697285.new#new
b.
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Marriage certificate, I have had to re-size this so hopefully it can be read OK.
b.
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Hi Scotiagirl,
Here is a link for some help on how to post an image on the Photograph restoration board.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=459330.0
Hi Bendywendy,
I am sorry I have had to remove your full Marriage certificate as we are only able to show partial elements that is difficult to read.
Regards
Sarah :)
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Hi sarah
We learn something new everyday.
b.
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Photographs are in progress and look fabulous, I have left my thanks ;D
Westwood21 ... The photograph of Joey, Skidder & Ellis needs rescanning at 300dpi, read the instructions above to help you, then send a copy of it to me to post onto the thread.
bendywendy
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Read through all the work done back then! Wow, quite the character. Adding a few poignant things...
For those looking to read the book - Letters of a Canadian stretcher bearer
He mentions gas attacks, not taking them seriously because of duds /fake shells, later describing his own symptoms.
https://archive.org/details/lettersofcanadia00lraruoft
excerpt: "What kind of a human beast can be happy and gay, when seeing his fellow Canadians being torn to pieces, and wracked with nerves."
He speaks of his best friend "K." who was from B.C. and his death sometime around Aug/Sept 1917. Perhaps his description of the west coast drew Ralph there.
His war records list an ailment as "Myalgia" - Even back then a blanket term loosely used as an ambiguous diagnosis for an array of unexplainable symptoms.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01te8/
This newspaper article describes a grandfather dealing with all his inflictions
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01te6/
The lengthy wait to finally demoblize the ernormous number of already shell-shocked men suffering from P.T.S.D. would have drawn many to drink away the time or to try & forget. Then there weren't enough means of transportation to get them out of there.
There was station riots and unrest. Those with more important jobs were sent home first.
https://www.warmuseum.ca/firstworldwar/history/after-the-war/veterans/repatriation-and-demobilization/
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Also, for those searching...Lalia & Billie
Census June 1, 1931 - Hull, Quebec, Canada Cascada
Beulah Watson Birth 1893 Ontario, Canada Widowed
Phyllis Watson Age 17 Birth 1914 United States Arrival 1919
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:655Q-1Q6X
Phyllis Beverly Watson - Davis b. 24 Apr 1914 d. 30 May 2006
Corona del Mar, Orange, California, United States of America
Cemetery Pacific View Memorial Park
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:68JW-LLTB
Father: Ralph Watson Mother: Beulah B Bahnsen
Born 24 Apr 1914Minneapolis, Minnesota, United States
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6K4C-4L4X
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Would it be in order for me to gatecrash this conversation, which I have just come across on RootsChat?
I will say no more at present other than that I am Peter Joseph Watson, (age 96), son of Joseph/Ralph/Beverley/Watson, and that I too have been researching the Watson family of Gardham Hall etc...
If you wish to communicate, please do, either on this site (if possible) or to *
Best wishes
PJW
*Moderator comment: personal email address removed in accordance with RootsChat practice and guidance, to prevent others abusing or spamming it. Please use the personal message system to exchange e-mail addresses. New members need to make two or three posts in order to access this system. Thanks
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Hello & welcome to Rootschat PJW! No gatecrashing was done. ;D Your email address will be removed shortly, though. The main reason being that spammers would find it and you'd want to change your email address with all the incoming spam you'd get.
There is a way to communicate privately, though... by clicking on the wee scroll under that person's avatar (to the left of their post). Just hover over it to confirm where to click. They can also private message you as long as they have more than one post on Rootschat!
In the meantime, there may be other surnames you are interested in. If so hit SEARCH in the brown panel on top of the page...type the names & location you are looking for and perhaps you can even add info to someone else's search. All the best...J.J.
adding: Did you see Haywood's post on page 1 re: same bunch? If not, here's the url
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=533187.0
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Hi Peter
Of course you can gatecrash, more info the better.
I have received you private message, I am about to reply.
bendywendy