RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: KMurray on Thursday 24 April 14 18:24 BST (UK)
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I am looking for any information on the death of Lillian Ross. She was born in 1879 but I am not sure of the location (NSW, Queensland, or WA). Her father was Alfred Ross but I don't have the name of her mother. She died in 1935 and we believe it was in Western Australia. I believe she never married, but again I can't say for sure at this point. I am truly starting at the beginning.
I guess really if you can find anything that points to birth information that would be welcomed as well.
Sorry for the sparse details and thank you for anything that you might bring to light.
Kathy
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Hi Cathy,
Can you tell us anything about her father, Alfred? Where he died or lived?
There is nothing on the death index to confirm its the right Lillian
WA death index
ROSS LILLIAN M District PLANTAGENET 1935
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The only thing that I know is that the three of them lived in the Brisbane Cooparoo area in 1896-1899, though perhaps she wasn't living with her parents. Around 1900 Lillian moved to Sydney, though I don't know how long she remained there. I have no information on possible siblings or if Lillian even had a middle name. There is a sense that she lived a rough childhood in the outback, which makes me think that her father might have been a grazer at one point, but it is only a guess.
I hope some of that helps. That is truly all the details that I have..... other than I also found that her father had a drinking problem.
Thanks beforehand for anything that you might find.
Kathy
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Could be your people.
A Alfred Quarme ROSS married a Julia CUNNINGHAM at Tambaroora NSW in 1872.
SEE: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z0o/
They had two children there before moving to Brisbane.
SEE: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z0p/
They had three more children in Brisbane
SEE: https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/querySubmit.m?ReportName=BirthSearch
They must have moved around quite a bit as one child is registered in Sydney after the births in Brisbane so may have returned there. Your Lillian is not registered at either area although it is possible she was still born to them or informally adopted.
There is a death recorded for a Julia ROSS in 1881 Sydney which leads me even more to see a connection.
SEE: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z0q/
Alfred Quarme ROSS died in Brisbane in 1905.
See: https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/querySubmit.m?ReportName=DeathSearch
The two children born Sydney died sydney
SEE: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z0r/
As I stated earlier this may or may not be them you would need to confrm.
Modified to include correct link
Neil
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The only thing that I know is that the three of them lived in the Brisbane Cooparoo area in 1896-1899, though perhaps she wasn't living with her parents. Around 1900 Lillian moved to Sydney,
Hi Kathy,
Are you able to tell us the source of where the above information come from?
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Interestingly, Australian newspapers have "Lily Ross" daughter of Alfred Quarme ROSS as the wife of Frederick Danby James Affleck, Baronet. Her real name was Elizabeth Annie (b. 1874) as shown by the births of her children and her death in Queensland in 1958.
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Interestingly, Australian newspapers have "Lily Ross" daughter of Alfred Quarme ROSS as the wife of Frederick Danby James Affleck, Baronet. Her real name was Elizabeth Annie (b. 1874) as shown by the births of her children and her death in Queensland in 1958.
Toowong Cemetery
Affleck Lillian 10 / 10 / 1958 84 years
Affleck Fredderick Danby James 25 / 07 / 1939 83 years
QLD death index
QLD death index
1958 B28271 Elizabeth Annie Affleck --- Alfred Quarme Ross Julia Cunningham
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So you are saying Jorose that Lillian Ross was Elizabeth A born 1874 Brisbane and she died 1958 not 1935 in WA?
Neil
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Her birth and death date, the name of her father, and the fact that she moved to Sydney around 1900 is from a church record from the era. The rest I am piecing together from interactions with her and the parents (Mr. and Mrs. Ross) from entries from my grandfather's journals. I have tired to create families according to everything that I could find from any Alfred in the area with children the appropriate age. I had Alfred Quarme and his family but had realized until just a moment ago that he had remarried in 1884 and perhaps this why the mother isn't listed and he was living in the appropriate area. This is hopeful but I will keep researching and I have one more record that I will try to find this evening.
The only new puzzle is the new and much later death date.
Thank you so much for your work and helping me as a sounding board.
Kathy
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Julia Cunningham was born NSW 1851.
CUNNINGHAM JULIA, FATHER PETER, MOTHER JULIA REF # V18519 69/1851
Neil
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So you are saying Jorose that Lillian Ross was Elizabeth A born 1874 Brisbane and she died 1958 not 1935 in WA?
Neil
Might help explain it Neil.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/98011483?searchTerm=%22Alfred%20Quarme%20Ross%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=Alfred+Quarme+Ross
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Doesn't appear to be your Lilian M[ay] ROSS who died in the Shire of Plantagenet in 1935. She was married.
Marriage in WA
ROSS Alexander
SAUL Lilian M
District Swan Reg#11 1907
Death
ROSS Lilian M
1935 Reg#85
District Plantagenet
Australian Electoral Roll
1916, 1931 WA Forest/Albany
ROSS Alexander Bornholm Farmer
ROSS Lilian May Bornholm Married
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bornholm,_Western_Australia
Cando
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Lily and this Affleck bloke were supposedly married in 1904 but i cant find a marriage for them. I tried a few years either side of 1904 and still nothing.
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Very strange ???
Lily and Frederick Affleck's kids birth werent registered until 1939, the same year he died ???
1939 C10171 Pansy Gabrielle Affleck - Frederick Danby James Elizabeth Ross
1939 B72950 Frederick James Siddartha Affleck - Frederick Danby James Elizabeth Annie Ross
1939 B72951 Dalham Affleck -Frederick Danby James Elizabeth Annie Ross
QLD death index
1914 C499 Pansy Gabrielle Affleck Frederick Danby James Affleck Elizabeth Ann Ross
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QLD MARRIAGES
1899 B20350
Elizabeth Annie ROSS to Lionel Laurence GREEN
1918 B22049
Lily GREEN to Frederick Danby James AFFLECK
1939 B35765
Frederick Danby James AFFLECK to Elizabeth Annie GREEN
Essie
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Could you please transcribe the "church record" and other info which hopefully may include addresses. Fresh eyes may help.
Cando
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The above record of a second marriage ceremony to Frederick Affleck seems like a previous marriage may have been because of an annulment of former marriage of Lillian? Perhaps to ensure the continuation of the Baronage? ??? ::)
Neil
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Perhaps to ensure the continuation of the Baronage? ??? ::)
I reckon they knew he was dying so were crossing their T's and dotting their I's beforehand by correcting names etc hence all been 1939 the same year he died. Getting everything legal.
A interesting thread this. Regardless as to whether its the right family or not ;D
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If this were my family I would be saving up my pennies and getting all three marriage certs. The first one I would get is the 1918 one....
I agree, it is a very interesting thread :)
Add
Of course, it was (and still is) illegal to marry someone who is already married, so the 1939 marriage may well be the flawed one rather than making something 'more legal'. You can change your name by simply becoming known by another name! (not just changing your surname .... you can change your given names too !)
So ;D ;D May I just mention, even today, it would still be illegal for me (a married woman) to remarry my husband, as afterall, he IS a married man (and I too am already married, I am a married woman :D :D :o ).
Cheers, JM
QLD MARRIAGES
1899 B20350
Elizabeth Annie ROSS to Lionel Laurence GREEN
1918 B22049
Lily GREEN to Frederick Danby James AFFLECK
1939 B35765
Frederick Danby James AFFLECK to Elizabeth Annie GREEN
Essie
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Many mentions on TROVE
Lots of info on the AFFLECK's
Morning Bulletin, Rockhampton 31 Jul 1939
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z11/
Frederick James Siddartha, born at Wynnum in 1905, and Dalham Robert, born at Morningside in 1906.....
Mention of aged mother using another name etc etc.
Sydney Morning Herald 31 Jul 1939
PRISONER SUCCEEDS TO TITLE.
Baronet of Dalham Hall.
THREE MORE YEARS IN .GAOL
BRISBANE, Sunday.
Sir Frederick James Siddartha Affleck, ninth baronet of Dalham Hall, succeeded to his title while in 'Boggo Road Gaol, Brisbane, this week.
He and his brother Dalham Robert Affleck, will spend nearly three more years In gaol as a result of a sentence for robberv and blackmail committed in Bnsbane last year.
The eighth baronet. Sir Frederick Danby James Affleck, died in Brisbane last week, and was buried in the Toowong Cemetery.
In an interview in gaol, the new baronet said that he hoped to go to England to take up the title when tree. He also hoped to become an author
The late Sir Frcdetick Affleck had lived In Queensland since the eighties, and was 83. He had farms in the Wide Bay district. In 1903 he was the licence of the National Hotel, Brisbane. There is no English estate accompanying the title.
The Australasian [Melbourne] Sat 29 Jul 1939
OBITUARIES FROM ALL STATES
SIR FREDERICK AFFLECK (Q.)
Sir Frederick Danby James Affleck, eighth baronet, of Dalham Hall, Suffolk, England, died in the general hospital, Brisbane, at the age of 83 years. He had been in Queensland for several years.
Sir Frederick Affleck kept to himself a good deal, and recently had been living in a small house at Scarborough. He succeeded his cousin, Sir Robert Affleck, in 1919.
Mirror Perth Sat 12 Aug 1939
Blackmailing Baronet Will Stay In Gaol
A fortnight ago 83-year-old Sir Frederick Affleck, Bart., died in Brisbane. A search for his son, Frederick, the heir to the title began, and he was finally located in Brisbane gaol where he is serving a four years’ sentence for blackmail and conspiracy. He succeeded to the title while in gaol. On learning that he was a baronet, the young son of British nobility appealed against the sentence passed on him in 1937. But this week the Appeal Court dismissed his claim. 'Honorable' Sir Frederick will serve another two years.
Two years ago he and his brother were convicted on a charge of conspiracy and blackmail. They became known as the ''camera blackmailers,' and this was how they worked. They started what they called a ‘club for jaded business men who wanted to play around.' To the secret headquarters in a Valley flat a certain type of business man went during his spare hours. Then the Affleck brothers, by means of a camera concealed in a cupboard, took flashlight photographs of members in decidedly compromising positions. The photos were developed, and then things happened. One of the brothers would calmly show a victim the photos, mention how decidedly awkward it would be if the pictures were circulated among his business acquaintances, and suggest that, for a sum of money, the incriminating evidence would be burnt. PAID— AND PLENTY Naturally, the money was paid plenty of it— and quickly. And so the blackmailing racket went on until one young shop assistant, with the blackmail gun at his head, went to the police. Frederick and Robert Affleck went down for four years. And it was after they had served two years of the sentence (a fortnight ago) that the death of their father caused the title to pass to Frederick Affleck. A blue-blooded scion of British nobility in Brisbane Gaol! That was too much for the other inmates when the news leaked around, and they immediately christened him 'Blue-blood.' —From our Brisbane representative.
Mirror Perth Sat 12 Aug 1939
The Advocate Sat 22 Nov 1941
Son of Baroness Gaoled for Theft
BRISBANE, Friday. – Frederick Affleck (35), eldest son of the ninth Baroness of Dalham, Suffolk, England, was sentenced to six months imprisonment for the theft of clothing from a city, residential. The Magistrate refused to declare Affleck a habitual criminal.
Police said the Baroness died in Brisbane in 1939, but they had no information on Affleck's claim that had succeeded to the title.
Keep you busy for a while
Cando
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Many mentions on TROVE
Lots of info on the AFFLECK's
Morning Bulletin, Rockhampton 31 Jul 1939
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z11/
Mentions of aged mother using another name etc etc.
"He was at Dunwich from 1937 until a few months ago, when he lived in Bonville Avenue, Scarborough-a pathetic blind figure" I would question the validity of the 1939 marriage after reading that cutting. The date for that marriage is 21 June 1939.
http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Search/AgencyDetails.aspx?AgencyId=861
Cheers, JM
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OP states her Lily ROSS was in Sydney c1900
1899 B20350
Elizabeth Annie ROSS to Lionel Laurence GREEN
Australian Electoral Roll
1903, 1905, 1908
GREEN Lily McConnell Street Fortitude Valley HD
GREEN Lionel Lawrence McConnell Street Fortitude Valley Steward
There are no children registered to his couple.
Death of a Lionel GREEN
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z13/
Australian Electoral Roll - variations on both the spelling of given names.
1905
AFFLECK Frederick Danby James Thorn Street, Wynnum Bushman
1919
AFFLECK Frederick Dauby James Maroochy River Labourer
AFFLECK Lily Maroochy River HD
1925
AFFLECK Frederick Dauby James Buderim Mountain Labourer
AFFLECK Lily Buderim Mountain HD
1937
AFFLECK Frederick D J Dunwich No occupation
1943, 1954, 1958
AFFLECK Lily/Lilley, 78 Seaville Avenue, Scarborough HD
Cando
Edit to strike out incorrect death...thank you Giblet
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Death of a Lionel GREEN
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z13/
I dont think that is the right death Cando. According to this article he had only been in Australia for 10 months.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/58444169?searchTerm=%22Lionel%20GREEN%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=+Lionel+GREEN
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After all this....is this the OP's Lily ROSS?
I think we need some information from the church record and some address for that time.
Cando
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After all this....is this the OP's Lily ROSS?
I think we need some information from the church record and some address for that time.
Cando
I agree, that church record will be interesting.
IF the Lily Green on the E/R with Lionel is the right one she was supposedly having kids to Affleck at the same time ???
My head is all but done in now :o
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IF the Lily Green on the E/R with Lionel is the right one she was supposedly having kids to Affleck at the same time ???
I did mention that there were no births registered to this couple on the Qld birth index. Certainly make one wonder about the parentage of the chn.
More information would be helpful as it is often the small details that are the most useful.
Cando
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We are meant to be looking for a spinster who died in 1935 in WA
Cheers JM
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She died in 1935 and we believe it was in Western Australia. I believe she never married, but again I can't say for sure at this point. I am truly starting at the beginning.
Poster cant be sure she never married JM.
So we married her off and gave her some kids as well ;D ;D
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Reply#11.
The 1935 death for a Lilian ROSS in WA was a married woman with maiden name SAUL.
I wonder if the info was taken from the online subscription website death index.
Cando
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The OP didn't seem to interested in the Lillian we found, she already had dispensed with her as the
wife daughter of Albert Ross. So until the OP has increased her interest in her own post, aren't we just wasting time ::)
Neil
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My Point.
Quote from OP...."That is truly all the details that I have" Then "I had Alfred Quarme and his family but had realized until just a moment ago that he had remarried in 1884"
I am left mystified as to what and where and why all this seemingly new information has burst into the light from the OP ??? ::)
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When all avenues are exhausted have a look at some online trees and the OP has one titled Brisbane family. The AFFLECK family are included included Elizabeth Ann [Lily] ROSS.
And also
Lillian ROSS born 1874 in Australia Father Alfred ROSS
Residence 1896 -1898 Age 22 years Brisbane Qld Australia
Death 1935 Age 61 years Sydney, NSW, Australia
I don't think we can proceed until we have the information relating to Lily in 1896 and 1898 evidence she went to Sydney.
Cando
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I won't type up all the info until we are sure we are tracing the right family. I note that the news report of Frederick D J AFFLECK's funeral, his wife was using the name Mrs HANDFORD.
The NSW Police Gazette has a description of a Sydney James AFFLECK alias Frederick James AFFLECK who is also known as Frederick James HANFORD. This was in 1929 before the death of his father.
Does the name HANDFORD/HANFORD have any relevence :-\ :-\ Frederick was charged and sentenced for having an unlicensed gun and numerous breaking and enters.
Cando
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Cando there is another article also which mentions his mother as Lily Hanford and she is noted as been 48 years of age.
Just thought i would mention it incase you missed it
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/104716519?searchTerm=%22lily%20HANDFORD%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=lily+HANDFORD
And this one states she had a daughter in Inverell.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28045093?searchTerm=%22lily%20HANDFORD%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=lily+HANDFORD
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Thank you for more details. I found the later marriage to Lilly Green and I was about to give up on Elizabeth being my Lilly but her early marriage to Lionel then makes more sense. Interesting little journey making sense of this family.
You wanted a transcription of the church record. Lilly was actually baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Mormon Church in 1896. She seems to have been working for the Samuel Rowley family doing laundry, but she could have been living there as well. They would have been her introduction to the church. The record is from the East Brisbane Branch and this is all the information that it has:
Last Name: Ross
First Name: Lillian
Born: 1874
Died: 1935
Father: Alfred Ross
Mother:
Bapt: 1896
By: Daniel H. Livingston
Moved: Sydney
Remarks: whereabouts unknown
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Just had a chance to read all of the exchanges that have happened since I was last able to enter the site. I would suggest that you call it a day and end the research. I appreciate all that you have done and the flurry of information. It was an interesting journey but truly I am not sure if this is my Lilly or not. If nothing else I know it wasn't her in Western Australia. Was this Lilly married to Lionel but mistress to Frederick? May never know exactly what they were up to. There is one other record I have to order that may give more information. Otherwise I may have to let the dust settle on this one.
Thanks gang.
Kathy
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Aww come on... you can't set the dogs loose then give up ::) ;D Don't read too much into our chatroom banter. But you should really put in everything you know when you post a question. just saves going over old ground. My apologies if I put you off :-[.
This is one of the more interesting threads that has been on for a while :-\
The Mormon link says lots to me, could be wrong, but I don't think anyone was going to inherit a Baronetcy from the British Throne if they were a Mormon. It may explain the very late registrations and marriage in 1939. Could be wrong though, more often than not I am. ::)
Some seem to have strayed from the righteous path, but thats no nevermind, interesting lot in all. There is nothing to say that the church record is correct it may have been given in absentia? Sounds to me like someone was attempting to arrest a soul in decay ::)
I don't believe your Lily died 1935 but was at home duties at Scarborough in 1958 as per Cando's post.
Just my thoughts.
Neil ;)
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Thanks Neil,
The were a flurry of problems in the East Brisbane Branch around 1900. Some left at a run and immigrated for Salt Lake City, some left the faith, and others weary of the turmoil became inactive. I suspect that Lilly (whoever she was) is one of those that simply became inactive around 1900 and it might have been why she moved to Sydney (if only for a break). I am going to see if there is anything in the Sydney Branch records that gives more information or continuance. As far as the records...they were recorded at the time of baptism but as to her death year, given that they didn't know where she was, it was probably a second hand rumor. Elizabeth could well be my Lilly and my what a story she turned into if it is. Everything seems to fit but two things - the fact that she register in the faith as Lillian and not Elizabeth or Lilly and the simple fact that they lost her....though she was still in Brisbane. The missionaries that might have been coming and going wouldn't necessarily know who she had been but the neighborhood would.
My grandfather seemed to adore Lilly as a good friend and I think he had a little crush on her. If things were to slide and her life turn a major corner it hadn't happened in the period that he had known her, which was 1896 until around early 1899. There was no mention or forewarning a Lionel.
I appreciated all of your help and your research and time. What seemed like a simple and sort of helpless question turned into almost an overload of twists and turns and I am sort of exhausted now. I have recorded all the information to keep track of and in a couple of weeks I will return to the fray and see what more I can find or at least until I feel confident in the identity.
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No problems, we are only too happy to help ;D
Neil
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Certainly one of the more interesting enquiries :)
I did find a Mr F D J AFFLECK on the passenger list on the TYRIAN which arrived in Sydney NSW on the 23 Jan 1903 from Brisbane.
This marriage certificate would detail Lily's parents' names including her mother's maiden name. You can order online [AUD$28] and a copy will be mailed.
Search for the record and then order...all on the results page.
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/BirIndexQry.m
1918/B22049
GREEN Lily
AFFLECK Frederick Danby James
Do Mormon baptisms require a sponsor/sponsors or alternatively, are there witnesses to baptisms?
Cando
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Cando
"Do Mormon baptisms require a sponsor/sponsors or alternatively, are there witnesses to baptisms?"
Interesting!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_in_Mormonism
Neil
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I am looking for any information on the death of Lillian Ross. She was born in 1879 but I am not sure of the location (NSW, Queensland, or WA). Her father was Alfred Ross but I don't have the name of her mother. She died in 1935 and we believe it was in Western Australia. I believe she never married, but again I can't say for sure at this point. I am truly starting at the beginning.
I guess really if you can find anything that points to birth information that would be welcomed as well.
Sorry for the sparse details and thank you for anything that you might bring to light.
Kathy
This may or may not confuse you. ;D
http://nis.wikidot.com/atkins
You have the Alfred Quarme ROSS on an online tree however it appears you have removed the tree...or possibly my research skills are lacking ;)
I notice you were enquiring about the LEBHERZ family.
This might be a bit of news but this Lebherz family figures prominently in the journals of my grandfather (William Armstrong)who was a Mormon missionary in Brisbane 1896-1898. This was a beloved family for my grandfather and they were very active Mormons at the time. There was a large apostasy of the Branch in 1901 and several members changed to the RLDS group.
According to the electoral rolls Alfred Quarme ROSS and the LEBHERZ family were living in Stanley Street, South Brisbane. May simply be a co-incidence.
Kathy are we researching your own ancestors or simply the names of the people who featured in your grandfather's diary?
Cando
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Cando,
I do have a tree for the Ross family as well as the Lebherz family. In filling in the gaps in my grandfather's diaries, I have been doing some research as to the other families to see what became of them. It started with the Lebherz family and then I connected with the woman doing research for that family. They were at a road block because of some changes in spelling from German to French and because they didn't have the names of the parents. I was able to give her that from the church record. I am at the end of the process now, having finally cracked the toughest nuts. I wasn't sure of the street but it would be a given that they were in the same neighborhood.
Thanks again for all the help. I suspected it was that Alfred Ross family but what I didn't know was that Elizabeth went by Lilly.
Kathy
Kathy
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I have been away from this since last week and I am afraid that I have missed numerous questions. Cando you were asking about the baptisms.... all baptisms are witnessed by at least three people and recorded. There is no sponsorship required.
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Lest others join in....on the baptisms let me clarify. It would be the person performing the baptism and at least two witnesses.