RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: garyatkinson on Wednesday 23 April 14 11:05 BST (UK)
-
I recently came across this photograph which is alleged to be of my great grandmother, Esther Livett (Levitt/ Levett). I have reason to believe that it may not be her but her sister Ellen. Esther was born in 1886 and Ellen in 1888. Both were born in Hull, East Yorkshire, England.
I have tried to contact the owner of the photograph but have had no reply.
I have not been told of anyone in this part of the family having gone to university but there sits “E. Levett” (titled by the owner of the photograph) having graduated at university. Her scroll consists of several pages…
If this is Ellen and she left university at around 22 years old, then this would place the photograph, taken in Hull, at Barry’s studio just off Anlaby Road, at about 1910. If it is a 20 year old Esther then it would be 1908.
I have a photograph of Esther, taken in 1931 and there is a resemblance but not enough for me to be sure. I have no photograph of Ellen to make a comparison.
So, what I am looking for are ideas; I don’t expect anyone to recognise her, but it would be wonderful if anyone does. I’m looking for ideas of how I could pick up clues from the photograph which I could follow up. Does the gown and hat tell anything? Are gown designs specific to particular universities? Is it a BA gown or an MA gown? Which university? It wasn’t Hull because that university did not open until around 1927. Do universities have records of their past graduates? Would I be right in dating the picture at about 1910. Is there anything else that the picture could tell or suggest?
Any thoughts would be welcome. Thanks.
-
Hi Gary...There is a matching family tree that has this photo attached as Esther Levitt...she married Joseph Howard in 1904
Carol
-
Hi Carol,
Yes and this is probably where the photograph came from. The problem is, that Esther was married by 1904 by which time she would have been 19. In the same year she gave birth to her first child; my grandmother. Looking at the young woman in the photograph, who has evidently just been through university, she must be in her early twenties. Also, I am sure that my mother, who is Esther's granddaughter would have told me about her grandmother having been to university, had this been the case. On the other hand, I know nothing about Ellen...
-
Hi Gary...Ellen is proving to be a bit elusive on the censuses...She may have graduated outside of Hull and had her photo taken in her home town and moved away through her job...I was wondering if she emigrated.
Esther was a Domestic Servant in 1901 so not likely to be her given that she married 3 years later.
Carol
-
There are two directory entries for Ellen Levett in 1925 and 1929 in Chelmsford, Essex....But it may not be her :-\
Carol
-
This is a fascinating photo, but it might help in identifying the person if we could put a reasonably precise date to it. From what can be seen at present it looks like a carte de visite which I would guess might date from about the 1890s, but as styles of photos and mounts changed over the years, it would be helpful to see the whole of the front and the back of it.
Clearly the woman has just reached some academic milestone, but the lack of a hood suggests that she may not be a graduate - though since there were hardly any opportunities for women to attend university in those days, that's not surprising. There were, however, a few associated colleges where women could study, including some for teacher training, and this may relate to one of those. All universities and colleges, or their successor institutions, will keep records of their former students, and they may also be published in annual calendars - I found records of some of my family members from Leeds University in a copy of a calendar in the Society of Genealogists' library.
Each university has its own regulations for academic dress, and it often varies according to the faculty where someone is studying. In this case, the colour of the tassel and the stitching where the sleeve is gathered may well be significant.
I haven't been able to find any similar pictures, but I'm sure that with a bit of time and effort it should be possible to identify it. One possible source of help might be the Burgon Society (http://www.burgon.org.uk), which is concerned with the history of academic dress - they may well have someone who can identify it, or at least give a few pointers as to where it might be from.
Arthur
-
Hi Carol. Any scrap of possibility is of interest. Thanks. I have just trawled swiftly through a.com, looking for her again. After 1901 all of the brothers and sisters are still there, in Hull but no Ellen. I agree that, this being the case, she may have moved out of town (to go to university?), took a liking to where she went and stayed there. Is there any recommendation as to how I could follow up the small cutting that you posted up? I suppose I would need to find a census for the area, this would give the place of birth... If it turned out to be Hull, then it would be likely to our Ellen.
-
I think that if you became qualified at either of the colleges of music you were entitled to wear "cap and Gown".
Royal college of music London
Victoria college of music manchester
mike
-
Have you looked to see when Barry photographers were at Anlaby Road?
That might give a clue.
-
Fantastic Arthur. Just the sort of thing that I was hoping for. Frustratingly, I cannot get in touch with the person that uploaded this photograph as they are not very active on the site that it is on.
I agree that the colour of the hat's tassel, which may gold or white may be significant. At first, this looks normal but having now looked at numerous outfits for English universities, I am beginning to feel that this is more unusual. This is the same for the three stripes on the arm.
I understand that there is a gown design for MA and another for BA but I cannot decide which one it is that she is wearing. Could you comment. I am also uncertain as to whether the difference that I am seeing in the gown that she is wearing (gathered sleeves to the elbow, pinned or stitched just below the three stripes) compared to more modern gowns (1940s onwards) is just an older design of one of the two gowns mentioned above. My hope is that gowns were like school uniforms colours and designs; unique to their particular school. I will go and have a look at the link that you provided. Many thanks.
-
http://qvictoria.wordpress.com/victorian-photographers-ba-by/
Barry – Hull, Yorkshire -1876-1900-
-
There is an Ellen Levitt who received a scholarship for evening class in Hull in 1924 in FindMyPast Newspaper.
I think it is a cabinet card...I think it's a bit too late for a Carte de Visite.
Carol
-
It may indeed be a cabinet print rather than a CDV, but it's very difficult to tell. Both are commonest in the latter part of the 19th century through to about 1919. They were superseded by postcard-type formats, which were introduced at the beginning of the 20th century.
I understand that there is a gown design for MA and another for BA but I cannot decide which one it is that she is wearing. Could you comment. I am also uncertain as to whether the difference that I am seeing in the gown that she is wearing (gathered sleeves to the elbow, pinned or stitched just below the three stripes) compared to more modern gowns (1940s onwards) is just an older design of one of the two gowns mentioned above. My hope is that gowns were like school uniforms colours and designs; unique to their particular school. I will go and have a look at the link that you provided. Many thanks.
Each university would have had its own designs, which may have varied a little over time as well as by faculty, and usually there would be different ones for BA and MA. Without knowing what institution it came from, it's very hard to say which of these it might have been - and that's before you get into BSc, BMus, and so on. However, if she hadn't been able to take a bachelor's degree, I don't think she'd have been able to get a higher one such as an MA.
Arthur
-
By the early 1870s, cartes de visite were supplanted by "cabinet cards," which were also usually albumen prints, but larger, mounted on cardboard backs measuring 110 mm (4.5 in) by 170 mm (6.5 in). Cabinet cards remained popular into the early 20th century, when Kodak introduced the Brownie camera and home snapshot photography became a mass phenomenon.
From Wiki
Carol
-
Carol, Arthur and snowyw, your posts create a combined question.
I did notice that there was an Ellen Levitt who received a scholarship for evening class in Hull in 1924 but this would not necessitate such an outfit to receive such a scholarship, or would it? If it did, would that kind of photograph "a cabinet card... or Carte de Visite" be produced in '24?
snowyw, you raise a good point about the activities of the Barry studio. This is something that I have tried to look into in the hopes that a closure date may give a clue, at least, as to when the latest possible date for the photograph could have been for it to be taken. The Barry studio seems to have been very active in the latter half of the 1800s but the activity seems to taper off in the early 1900s. To date I do not know when the studio closed bot it does appear to be later than 1900.
-
I'm not sure what a scholarship for an evening class would entail, but this looks to me to be probably something of a higher standard. I also feel the date is a lot earlier than 1924: I said before that it seemed to me something like the 1890s, and I wonder if the hairstyle might put it towards the end of the deade, if not a bit later still.
One of the key factors in dating is the photographer and studio, and it's already been said that Barrys have been recorded in Hull in 1876-1900. It would probably be worth looking into that some more to try to pin down an exact date range.
Arthur
-
Hi Gary...I have asked one of the daters to come over and take a look for you....although without seeing the corners and the back it may not be easy but China has good in depth knowledge. I know you don't have the back but posting the whole photo might help.
Carol
-
Hi gang :)
Unfortunately the bits of the lady's dress that we really need to see for dating are completely obscured by the gown.All we have is a lace bertha which could be just about any date, a bit of collar which isn't very high, and a sleeve that is a bit looser at the wrist than the various 1890s styles. There seems to be a hint of a cuff on it, which would put it into Edwardian fashion. I think it's early Edwardian.
The dark surround was popular in the 1890s, though, and is not typical for Edwardian photos. Could be old cardstock, I suppose.
Is there any printing on the back? Could you show us if there is please.
It's going to be a cabinet card...way too late for a cdv. But I do think this photo is way too early for 1924.
About the only thing I can say with any reasonable certainty is that this is a BA. She is holding her degree so we know she has graduated. BA graduates move the tassel from the right side of the cap to the left while MA graduates move from the left (which they already have) to the right. So she is BA. Or BSc I suppose :)
My opinion, and you may get others :)
Cheers,
China
-
Thanks China and to everyone that is trying to help out with this. Amazing that people unrelated can put in such effort. I am now feeling more sure that her identity will be cracked. All the more so, when as a result of Arthur's link, I got up this morning to receive this email from the Secretary of The Burgon Society in Oxford which reads;
"Dear Gary
Thanks for your enquiry.
What a charming photograph! These are the robes for an Associate of the London College of Music - ALCM. The black gown has gathers on the sleeve at the elbow and over these are laid three vertical cords, which would be light blue. This combination of features is unique to the LCM gown. The tassel on the black square cap would also be light blue. Associates do not wear an academic hood with their gown; holders of higher grades of diploma from the LCM do. The College was founded in 1887 and was an independent teaching and examining body based in central London, holding examinations at centres around the country. In 1993 the LCM was amalgamated with Thames Valley University, now the University of West London..."
I am trying to contact the University whilst at the same time I am trying to find out if any such exams were taken, at the time, in the Hull area.
-
Excellent...If you look in FindMyPast newspapers you will see a grade 5 in music.... I think awarded to Ellen in 1932 at the National College of Music....I tried to post last night but couldn't get connected.
Carol
-
Haven't found anything new to add but this is really interesting :)
-
Hi Carol. I have also found a piece in the Hull Daily Mail announcing results of Exams taken "at the Hull Centre of the National College of Music London". In the list there is an Esther Levett,. But these examinations took place in 1935 and I feel sure that this outdates the time of the picture being taken. Certainly the Esther Levett mentioned in the paper is not my great grandmother I know this for a fact. It is Esther's, Ellen, who was far more likely to be the person to have gone to university or college. In addition, I am doubtful, though not one hundred per cent sure, that the Barry photograph studio existed by then.
However, the 1935 article is making me wonder if there was a younger Esther Levett in the family, someone who was named after my great grandmother. I feel that I am very close now but is the trail going to go cold again...? I am waiting for a reply from the London University. It would be helpful if I could find out where the Hull examinations took place. Probably Hull University by 1935 but not in 1910 as this was before the university opened.
-
I'm just showing what I have found and how it may relate to your line Gary...rule nothing out...these ladies may be related to her as the Daughter of one of her Brothers...I'm not necessarily linking these press cuttings with Ellen and Esther...but...it's feasible that their Brother's Children were named after their Aunt/s and were also musically inclined....it all could help with the bigger picture.
Carol
-
Hi Carol. Yes, I agree. It is worth investigating children of great aunts and uncles. I have picked up an Esther Levitt, having taken exams at the Hull Centre for the London College of Music in 1930. But I am now asking myself does 1930 fit in with the age of the photograph which would be twenty years earlier than I estimated?
-
I've just read that one with a date of December 1930...There is also an examination entry for December 1931 and again in 1932.. I am not connecting this with the lady in the photo as the dates are too late...but not ruling out a family connection to her.
Carol
-
What an interesting thread :)
I have been looking at the photo again and I just can't shoehorn it into the 1930s...the hair is all wrong and the surround/backing just doesn't belong in the 30s.
Could we see the back please if there is any printing on it.
Cheers,
China
-
I think that if you became qualified at either of the colleges of music you were entitled to wear "cap and Gown".
Royal college of music London
Victoria college of music manchester
mike
the colleges then were not universities as we now know them, it was possible to pass the exams without ever having studied there, although the did provide tuition not necessarily fulltime
mike
-
Is it any help if I say that my mother married at the age of 20 and was already a licentiate of the Victoria college of music at the age of 18, it could be Esther
mike
-
I think there may be some confusion about the different levels of qualifications offered by music colleges.
There are graded examinations for performance on various instruments, and these are taken at centres around the country. Some of us may have taken these as children, or later in life. At a higher level there are Diplomas, Associates, Licentiates and Fellows: the relevant page on the LCM website (http://www.uwl.ac.uk/academic-schools/music/lcm-exams/exam-levels) says that an Associate is equivalent to the second year of an undergraduate degree course. (Other colleges may vary - the equivalent page for Trinity College of Music links the performance standard to the first year of a degree.)
I would think it highly likely that to attain that level of qualification would require full-time residential study rather than anything part time or at a remote location. I guess the LCM/University of West London would be able to comment on this, but in the meantime this brief history may be of interest: https://lcm.uwl.ac.uk/en/lcm-history.html
Arthur